KSSU: Revenge of Meta Knight Mafia - Game Over! Has Dreamland been conquered!?

[~ Gheb ~]

I want Hard Lemonade lynched. My reason is not just inactivity. I've given other reasons.

Yeah and they were pretty shallow all in all.

 

[JTB]

I'm still reading, but I wanted to point this out for people. I know it's full of wifom, but I still found it interesting.

What in the world? Well alright.

Kay, Kuzi's tell us who you choose. Then let's see if they got the message.

It was decided that Gheb was going to be Kuz' target last Night. Yet before either Gheb or Kuz post about it, J asks for who he chose to target instead of asking Gheb if he received the message.

So, either J naturally assumed that Kuz wasn't going to target Gheb, or J and Gheb are scumbuds and J already knew that Gheb didn't receive a message.

J was fully aware of the plan made in D1, shown here.

 

[#HBC | J]

JTB don't misconstrue things.

 

[Hard Lemonade]

He's not misconstruing anything, actually. That's an interesting find.

 

[Gova]

 

[JTB]

J, would you explain what I'm miscontruing then?

 

[#HBC | J]

You are putting me in a weirdly positioned question, how am I supposed to respond to either, I was faking it or I'm scum-buddies with Gheb. It's misconstruing what I said to put it in a questionable light like you have. It was a simple question.

 

[Xivii]

J, that isn’t misconstruing at all. You can't just say that someone is misconstruing what you're saying everytime someone calls you out on something. He made a legit observation, it's called scumhunting. You can either explain/defend against it or you can accept it as a point against you. What you can't do is the very thing you are calling him out on which is misconstruing his point. You've done this quite a bit this game during your back and forths with Gheb and Kooz.

Why did you want Kooz to identify who he sent the message to before that person spoke up?


JTB, if you have read to at least the post you quoted from J, then there is definitely enough for you to comment on. What do you currently think of Kooz, Tandora, Tiger, and HL in terms of alignment? Do you think J is scum from what you posted?

 

[JTB]

Ugh, typing a post and leaving the page by accident sucks.

I trust Kuz' claim and his decision in choosing his target last Night, giving me a town read on him for two reasons:

1) If he was scum messenger, I would imagine that he would've picked Gheb as his target just to appease town. Instead, he went against our wishes.
2) He opted to chose his strongest (I think?) town read over someone he didn't have a town read on. Even if the rest of town disagrees with him, he is working towards our win-con and I'm fine with him going a different direction.

I would like to see the paraphrased messages between Kuz and Tandora before I get a more solid read on Tandora.

Tiger is null, I don't like his decision to soft-claim right now out of nowhere. HL is null too.

Now, regarding the quote I brought up, the point itself is very reaching and not enough to begin a wagon on. The main reason I brought it up was in the event that we get a J or Gheb scum flip, I would immediately go for the other person as their scumbud.

I'm going to review the process behind dictating Kuz' night actions in the morning because I honestly don't remember why Gheb was chosen and I don't like how Gheb reacted to what happened. There are no pro-town results from what Kuz did? Gheb receiving a message from Kuz helps determine if there is scum between the two of them? I'm so confused.

bbl

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It was decided that Gheb was going to be Kuz' target last Night. Yet before either Gheb or Kuz post about it, J asks for who he chose to target instead of asking Gheb if he received the message.

So, either J naturally assumed that Kuz wasn't going to target Gheb, or J and Gheb are scumbuds and J already knew that Gheb didn't receive a message.

J was fully aware of the plan made in D1, shown here.

Or J and Kuz are scumbuddies and they knew Kuz didn't target me. The problem with this scenario is that from an outsider's point of view - assuming our theory holds true - all "combos" are equally likely [J-Gheb, Kuz-J, Kuz-Gheb] because there's always at least one player in each scenario that would "know" about the message not being sent to me.

But I agree that it'll probably come down to Kuz, J and myself toDay based on the current information we have. In that case I'd even go as far as to suggest that J and I should claim soon [unless there are major objections] because I think my claim might prove helpful for the town in this debate.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

And contrary to what Tandora earlier stated a J-Kuz scum team is still perfectly possible.

 

[#HBC | J]

J, that isn’t misconstruing at all. You can't just say that someone is misconstruing what you're saying everytime someone calls you out on something. He made a legit observation, it's called scumhunting. You can either explain/defend against it or you can accept it as a point against you. What you can't do is the very thing you are calling him out on which is misconstruing his point. You've done this quite a bit this game during your back and forths with Gheb and Kooz.

Why did you want Kooz to identify who he sent the message to before that person spoke up?

Against Gheb I never used the word misconstruing. Against Kuzi I did but so did you and Gheb because his case was bad and was misconstruing. That is an extremely bad point to say especially when you've done it and one point is just not true.

I don't like the way you say everytime someone calls me out, it's not true.

To see if he actually followed through.

 

[#HBC | J]

Gheb, I think claimings a bad idea because my claim won't really help. Why is the lynch most likely to boil down to J-Kuzi-Gheb? Could the lynch change to someone else?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'd say with the current info we have it kind of points towards one of us three being lynched. Who else would be a lynch candidate? Tiger I guess would work but that's pretty much it imo.

 

[#HBC | J]

Well I'm not getting lynched, I don't want either you or Kuzi lynched.

I'll find another choice because that's what you do.

Gheb, what would you say to a JTB/Tiger/Zen lynch?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I just mentioned it above -.-

 

[#HBC | J]

I should have taken out Tiger's name.

I don't see why one of us must be lynched toDay with the info we have.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I hardly use words like "must". I'd say the gain would be the highest.

 

[#HBC | J]

Okay well I could agree to that then. We do gain alot from a J/Kuzi/Gheb lynch.

 

[Hard Lemonade]

Ugh, typing a post and leaving the page by accident sucks.

I trust Kuz' claim and his decision in choosing his target last Night, giving me a town read on him for two reasons:

1) If he was scum messenger, I would imagine that he would've picked Gheb as his target just to appease town. Instead, he went against our wishes.
2) He opted to chose his strongest (I think?) town read over someone he didn't have a town read on. Even if the rest of town disagrees with him, he is working towards our win-con and I'm fine with him going a different direction.

I would like to see the paraphrased messages between Kuz and Tandora before I get a more solid read on Tandora.

Tiger is null, I don't like his decision to soft-claim right now out of nowhere. HL is null too.

Now, regarding the quote I brought up, the point itself is very reaching and not enough to begin a wagon on. The main reason I brought it up was in the event that we get a J or Gheb scum flip, I would immediately go for the other person as their scumbud.

I'm going to review the process behind dictating Kuz' night actions in the morning because I honestly don't remember why Gheb was chosen and I don't like how Gheb reacted to what happened. There are no pro-town results from what Kuz did? Gheb receiving a message from Kuz helps determine if there is scum between the two of them? I'm so confused.

bbl

You're trying to swim in WIFOM and you can't keep your head above water. How is not going where he was told a town tell?

 

[Xivii]

J, I didn't say you used the word misconstrue. I said that you misconstrued their posts. So no, we haven't done the same thing. You're doing the very thing right now, changing what I said.

If you wanted to see if Kooz went through with the message, why did you specifically ask him to state who he sent it to before the messagee spoke up? What was the point of him going first?

Gheb, I disagree that the lynch is set between one of you three. I don't think it's necessary for you to claim.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Zen, do you think JTB is scum?

 

[Hard Lemonade]

Zen, who should I be looking at now? I'm sort of lost. Tiger seems to be up for lynch for doing nothing but sitting on his ***. Gheb is up for lynch because town can't get it's head out of it's *** about an unproven claim. Kuz is up for lynch for I still don't know what and then these claim shenanigans. J is mentioned for lynch, why exactly?

I am certainly not willing to vote J. I don't know what to do with Gheb and Kuz. I would really rather lynch JTB because I don't remember anything he's done besides catch that one interesting J post and post WIFOM or Tandora for being scummy from when I remembered coupled with the sudden unshakable town read from this ambiguous message that she keeps waiting to share.

People I'd like to lynch

JTB
Tiger
Tandora

In that order.

People I'd be okay to lynch if I had to and deadline approached.

Gheb
Kuz

In no particular order.

People I would not lynch under any circumstances

J
Zen

Order doesn't matter.

The person who I managed to forget was in the game can probably go onto the willing to lynch list, but I don't know who he is, so nothing final.

What do you think of that list, Gheb? Who should be moved and why?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why do you wanna lynch Tandora?

 

[JTB]

You're trying to swim in WIFOM and you can't keep your head above water. How is not going where he was told a town tell?

The town tell isn't not going where he was supposed to, but his reasoning behind why he didn't.

I'm assuming you don't find it as such?

 

[#HBC | J]

How is not going where he was told a town tell?

It's Kuzi.

J, I didn't say you used the word misconstrue. I said that you misconstrued their posts. So no, we haven't done the same thing. You're doing the very thing right now, changing what I said.

If you wanted to see if Kooz went through with the message, why did you specifically ask him to state who he sent it to before the messagee spoke up? What was the point of him going first?

You are picking at a bad reason and no I'm not changing what you said.

Because that's what I wanted to know first. I wanted to see if Kuzi did follow the plan.

 

[#HBC | J]

The person who I managed to forget was in the game can probably go onto the willing to lynch list, but I don't know who he is, so nothing final.

You forgot yourself.

 

[Hard Lemonade]

No, I misread the player count in the OP because Glyph kept his number 2.

JTB, it's a null. It's completely and totally a null.

Gheb, because I don't remember anything positive that she's done. She has taken a definite stance on me and a definite stance on Kuz. Both of them are dumb based on everything I can see. I would be comfortable with that lynch.

 

[Hard Lemonade]

It's Kuzi.

How is it a town tell? It being Kuz is irrelevant.

 

[Hard Lemonade]

 

[Hard Lemonade]

Goddamn, wrong browser. Goddamn, wrong game.

 

[#HBC | J]

How is it a town tell? It being Kuz is irrelevant.

Well that's my biased opinion on it. Kuzi has done stuff on his own and not listen to others because he is him.

 

[Hard Lemonade]

Because he is him, he has done stuff on his own that he could have done as either town or scum. You need to explain the rational as to why it is a town tell. I'm not trying to lynch you, but I want you to LOOK AT YOUR ****! You're wrong here, J, look back.

 

[#HBC | J]

HL, I'm being blunt. For me, it's a meta-town-tell. So it's nothing substantial at all.

I still don't trust a damn word that comes out of his mouth this game.

 

[Hard Lemonade]

Then why would you mention it? I'm being blunt. You're meta town tell is picked out of thin air. You have nothing to base it off of meta or otherwise. Take it out of your equation or don't mention it in front of people who are going to call you on the bull****.

 

[#HBC | J]

Whatever.

Regardless of what I think of Kuzi, I still have no idea who to actually vote for.

I'm leaning towards JTB or maybe Tiger.

 

[Xivii]

Zen, do you think JTB is scum?

Zen, who should I be looking at now? I'm sort of lost. Tiger seems to be up for lynch for doing nothing but sitting on his ***. Gheb is up for lynch because town can't get it's head out of it's *** about an unproven claim. Kuz is up for lynch for I still don't know what and then these claim shenanigans. J is mentioned for lynch, why exactly?

I am certainly not willing to vote J. I don't know what to do with Gheb and Kuz. I would really rather lynch JTB because I don't remember anything he's done besides catch that one interesting J post and post WIFOM or Tandora for being scummy from when I remembered coupled with the sudden unshakable town read from this ambiguous message that she keeps waiting to share.

People I'd like to lynch

JTB
Tiger
Tandora

In that order.

People I'd be okay to lynch if I had to and deadline approached.

Gheb
Kuz

In no particular order.

People I would not lynch under any circumstances

J
Zen

Order doesn't matter.

The person who I managed to forget was in the game can probably go onto the willing to lynch list, but I don't know who he is, so nothing final.

What do you think of that list, Gheb? Who should be moved and why?

Ugh, typing a post and leaving the page by accident sucks.

I trust Kuz' claim and his decision in choosing his target last Night, giving me a town read on him for two reasons:

1) If he was scum messenger, I would imagine that he would've picked Gheb as his target just to appease town. Instead, he went against our wishes.
2) He opted to chose his strongest (I think?) town read over someone he didn't have a town read on. Even if the rest of town disagrees with him, he is working towards our win-con and I'm fine with him going a different direction.

I would like to see the paraphrased messages between Kuz and Tandora before I get a more solid read on Tandora.

Tiger is null, I don't like his decision to soft-claim right now out of nowhere. HL is null too.

Now, regarding the quote I brought up, the point itself is very reaching and not enough to begin a wagon on. The main reason I brought it up was in the event that we get a J or Gheb scum flip, I would immediately go for the other person as their scumbud.

I'm going to review the process behind dictating Kuz' night actions in the morning because I honestly don't remember why Gheb was chosen and I don't like how Gheb reacted to what happened. There are no pro-town results from what Kuz did? Gheb receiving a message from Kuz helps determine if there is scum between the two of them? I'm so confused.

bbl

It's Kuzi.



You are picking at a bad reason and no I'm not changing what you said.

Because that's what I wanted to know first. I wanted to see if Kuzi did follow the plan.

Well this game didn't take much to catch up in.

What do you mean by 'awkward'? Sorry you misunderstood. I unvoted because I don't think J is scum. I don't remember what I read to give me the read at the time, but somewhere between #76-90 is where I started to feel the best about him.



With regards to my Kuz vote:

I felt that Kuz' push on J was pretty fake, like he was simply trying to push for J on whatever he could find, not that he was actually looking for scum. He has gotten very defensive and has over reacted a lot to to J's posts. His #40 was an example of this. I also dislike how safe he feels calling people town. The game had barely gotten anywhere and in Kuz' #70 he claims Tiger and Tandora to be town out of no where. He does this later on with Beat as well. I don't feel that he is actually looking for scum, but alread knows who is scum and who is town.

Do you guys not know what 'Limited Access' means?

@J: What do you want me to comment on?
I can't say if Glyph is scum or town because he is refusing to play the game. I don't want someone like that in the game. I'd lynch him simply on policy because there's no way to read him. I voted him for two reasons. One for pressure and two to see how the wagon built up. I was hoping that if Glyph realized he would actually be lynched, he would answer my questions. I still prefer a Kuz lynch.

64:
#69:
#73:


None of these seemed real to me. You're not looking for scum tells, but instead just turning what J points at you back at him. You're also not even considering anything J says from the town perspective. Every single thing he posts, you call out as being a part of his scumminess. It's also like you're trying to put on a show, ie convince everyone else. Your #73 is very good example of this. You're attempting to deflect everything he says onto him. During this whole argument, you constantly accuse J of being scum, but you don't make a single case on him. Your original read supposedly came from your meta on J, but you haven't shown how any of what he has posted matches up to his scum play. You seem so convinced that J is scum yet you're putting so much time into the little back and forths like you have to some how prove everything he says is a scum statement. J had at least shown that he was actually thinking about your alignment. This is shown from his flip-floppyness. You simply claimed him to be scum and began to argue. You had already shown a set belief in J being scum by post #74. This is shown by the fact that you were "pseudo-clearing" Glyph by the sole fact that he had a scum read on J.

None of those posts you brought up make any sense wrt your argument.





J does the same thing you are accusing me of. Tandora makes a questionable comment and I ask her about it. J calls that move "looking for something in that post to call out as scummy" instead of scumhunting. They are two sides to the same coin and when J assumed and stated the former as a way to attack me I called him out on it. How does that not seem real to you?



We already went over this in thread but I brought up some points against him in the beginning of 64

and he dismissed them with 5 words. If he's not going to respond to stuff I bring up am I just supposed to let it go? What town motive could he have to summarily dismiss my points other than to be haughty? Don't see how you think these post are fake.



J claims he addressed my 64 while in reality all he did was list five words and then claim that the caliber of the post was below his standards. It's the exact same thing he claimed I was doing earlier, attacking his credibility. Again, don't see the townie intent here other than just to be arrogant.



Nope. I just call it how I see it. If I see something questionable, I'll be sure as hell to let everyone know about it.



73 is a terrible example of this. Instead of responding to the top of my 64, J tries to make the argument that the caliber of the post was insufficient, hence deflecting what I said to him back at me.



You honestly think that my entire argument is based off of scumJ meta? The thing that got me on the wagon wasn't even scumJ meta. The only time I even went there was the first post that glyph brought up, and I didn't even push him for it as it was just meta. J has been playing scummy for a whole arsenal of different reasons, which I've already detailed throughout the thread. Whether it matches up perfectly with his scum meta is irrelevant.



Repetition of what you said before. I have not called everything he has done a scum statement and saying so is blatantly false.



I understand where you're coming from with this one, as I myself have flipped reads before. The thing that I didn't like about this instance, however, is that he went from a "live till lylo" stance to a "he's scum and should die first" stance all during the course of my V/LA where I had not posted once. That didn't look like him re-evaluating his read but more like him banking off the opinions of other players (you) who expressed they had a similar read.



If by "set belief" you mean scum read, then yes I did. The read was certainly not set in stone, but nothing J produced afterward during our back and forth convinced me otherwise. Again, I had no problem stating why I thought Glyph was town at that instance and I have since explained why that read has changed (and why my one on J hasn't).

You should simply not use it all. The way I play has nothing to do with my alignment, but merely how I feel like playing in a certain game.
This is just wrong. "Making it the center of discussion" is just another way of saying 'pressuring'. Pressuring someone doesn't normally lead to nothing. The point was to get him to participate. We have just seen an example earlier in the game that pressure is a good way to get someone to participate when HL was inactive and only had one post. Once the votes piled on, he came in and started paticipating. Glyph is by no means someone that should just be left alone because he doesn't feel like playing the game. Also, as I said, there was a second reason for me voting him other than pressure as well- to see how his wagon would build. You claim that you have a dumb town read on Glyph over scum because of this wagon. So no, "making it the center of discussion" doesn't "just lead to nothing".
Would you say that J doing this is a scum tell? If so, how?

Your last sentence "feeling pretty cozy here" implies that his response was scummy. I don't see how this is an indication of him being scum though. If it is, then you're practically agreeing that you are scummy for it as well. I don't believe you feel that you were being scummy, so for you to say that J is scummy for it is fake to me.
You don't see town motive, but do you see scum motive? This is why I believe these posts are fake. You're calling him scum because of his reponses, but there is nothing about his responses that indicate scum motive. You are simply saying "I don't see the town motive behind this". How would that make him scum? You don't mention at all during your back and forth how any of the things he is saying make him scum. That is what leads me to believe that you can't because they aren't indications of J being scum, thus you are being fake on your read.
Honestly I don't know what your scum read on J is based off of because you haven't said.
The flip floppyness was just an example that indicated he was actually thinking about his read and your intent. The main point I am trying to get at here is that you do not do this. Your back and forth should have been a means to further develope your read, instead you use it as a case in itself on the already made assumption that J is scum.

Kuz please do this. You were just complaining about J working around your question. You guys are both so hypocritical.

---

J please stop trying to make everything Kuz says as scummy as he is doing to you. It is clear that he was describing, in his defense, past situations. He wasn't bringing up new points against you.

Gheb , if Kuz were to flip town, would you be more considerate of J being scum?

Guess I might need to rethink my J read. I woke up just now with the full expectation thalt he was going to strongarm town into lynching me anyway and he certainly would have had the adequate means to do it, considering zen said he sitll wanted me gone. Yet he chose another direction.

doubt he would have given up that chance to gett rid of me as his main wagon pusher if he was scum

@J: I know where you're coming from with scumGheb for being very dumb/scum wrt my wagon but I'm curious as to what you have by "other things"

We have 24 hours for twi iirc lets use em

^Well this could be an explanation. Though you are right in that he is town. I just don't see how your read is suddenly changing just from that.

My read on Tiger is wtfamireading

Said I needed to rethink my read, not that my read changed completely.

I feel better about J. Still not good enough to list him as a solid town read though.

gdffgdsfddfs

 

[Xivii]

lmao...wtf that wasn't supposed to be posted...

 

[Xivii]

Ignore 757.

Zen, do you think JTB is scum?

He's been lurking way too much for me. I'd really like to see more from him. The one thing I like is his observation of J's question. I dislike his push on Tiger and his town read on Kooz. The reasoning he is giving is very mucky to me. The Tiger reasoning was simply because Tiger voted Tandora when asked who he felt the play was. And as HL pointed out, the reasoning he is giving for Kooz being town is complete WIFOM. I'd say I'm still null on JTB. I'd just very much like to see him into the game more. Otherwise I wouldn't mind seeing him go.

Zen, who should I be looking at now? I'm sort of lost. Tiger seems to be up for lynch for doing nothing but sitting on his ***. Gheb is up for lynch because town can't get it's head out of it's *** about an unproven claim. Kuz is up for lynch for I still don't know what and then these claim shenanigans. J is mentioned for lynch, why exactly?

I would be good with lynching anyone in your list with the addition of Kooz. I'd say Kooz is still my strongest scum read. I'd like to see Tandora's outline of his night message and for her to explain in deteail how it has affected her read. If it turns out ok I would be fine keeping them for today and lynching JTB or Tiger. Though if I could decide, I'd lynch Kooz either way.

I trust Kuz' claim and his decision in choosing his target last Night, giving me a town read on him for two reasons:

1) If he was scum messenger, I would imagine that he would've picked Gheb as his target just to appease town. Instead, he went against our wishes.
2) He opted to chose his strongest (I think?) town read over someone he didn't have a town read on. Even if the rest of town disagrees with him, he is working towards our win-con and I'm fine with him going a different direction.

How is it playing towards town's win-con? The reasoning he gave isn't that great. His choice in no way insist that he is town. Scum Kooz could have messaged Tandora because he felt he could manipulate her while messaging Gheb would have done nothing for him. Kooz could also be buddies with Tandora without the ability to message. He was on the brink of being lynched. Him going against the agreed upon plan isn't very pro-town to me. It just makes his claim and trustablity even more questionable. All in all, you're playing WIFOM here. You can't say that he messaged Tandora with town intentions. We don't know what his intentions were. Unless you're scum and know he's town of course.

You are picking at a bad reason and no I'm not changing what you said.

Because that's what I wanted to know first. I wanted to see if Kuzi did follow the plan.

I don't know what you're saying in the first half. I'm picking a bad reason? And yes you did change it. All you have to do is read my post to see that.

So what was the point of wanting to know that first?? Why did it matter? Why couldn't Gheb/person he messaged simply claim if they recieved the message? Your insisting that Kooz identify who he targeted first implies that you had reason for doing so. You're telling me, you asked him to go first for absolutely no reason?




@Tandora, When you outline the post, please explain what exactly gave you your town read on Kooz.




@HL, This is why I think Kooz is scum. I'd suggest actually going to the posts so you can read everything that was quoted in them.

Spoiler

With regards to my Kuz vote:

I felt that Kuz' push on J was pretty fake, like he was simply trying to push for J on whatever he could find, not that he was actually looking for scum. He has gotten very defensive and has over reacted a lot to to J's posts. His #40 was an example of this. I also dislike how safe he feels calling people town. The game had barely gotten anywhere and in Kuz' #70 he claims Tiger and Tandora to be town out of no where. He does this later on with Beat as well. I don't feel that he is actually looking for scum, but alread knows who is scum and who is town.

64:
#69:
#73:


None of these seemed real to me. You're not looking for scum tells, but instead just turning what J points at you back at him. You're also not even considering anything J says from the town perspective. Every single thing he posts, you call out as being a part of his scumminess. It's also like you're trying to put on a show, ie convince everyone else. Your #73 is very good example of this. You're attempting to deflect everything he says onto him. During this whole argument, you constantly accuse J of being scum, but you don't make a single case on him. Your original read supposedly came from your meta on J, but you haven't shown how any of what he has posted matches up to his scum play. You seem so convinced that J is scum yet you're putting so much time into the little back and forths like you have to some how prove everything he says is a scum statement. J had at least shown that he was actually thinking about your alignment. This is shown from his flip-floppyness. You simply claimed him to be scum and began to argue. You had already shown a set belief in J being scum by post #74. This is shown by the fact that you were "pseudo-clearing" Glyph by the sole fact that he had a scum read on J.

None of those posts you brought up make any sense wrt your argument.





J does the same thing you are accusing me of. Tandora makes a questionable comment and I ask her about it. J calls that move "looking for something in that post to call out as scummy" instead of scumhunting. They are two sides to the same coin and when J assumed and stated the former as a way to attack me I called him out on it. How does that not seem real to you?



We already went over this in thread but I brought up some points against him in the beginning of 64

and he dismissed them with 5 words. If he's not going to respond to stuff I bring up am I just supposed to let it go? What town motive could he have to summarily dismiss my points other than to be haughty? Don't see how you think these post are fake.



J claims he addressed my 64 while in reality all he did was list five words and then claim that the caliber of the post was below his standards. It's the exact same thing he claimed I was doing earlier, attacking his credibility. Again, don't see the townie intent here other than just to be arrogant.



Nope. I just call it how I see it. If I see something questionable, I'll be sure as hell to let everyone know about it.



73 is a terrible example of this. Instead of responding to the top of my 64, J tries to make the argument that the caliber of the post was insufficient, hence deflecting what I said to him back at me.



You honestly think that my entire argument is based off of scumJ meta? The thing that got me on the wagon wasn't even scumJ meta. The only time I even went there was the first post that glyph brought up, and I didn't even push him for it as it was just meta. J has been playing scummy for a whole arsenal of different reasons, which I've already detailed throughout the thread. Whether it matches up perfectly with his scum meta is irrelevant.



Repetition of what you said before. I have not called everything he has done a scum statement and saying so is blatantly false.



I understand where you're coming from with this one, as I myself have flipped reads before. The thing that I didn't like about this instance, however, is that he went from a "live till lylo" stance to a "he's scum and should die first" stance all during the course of my V/LA where I had not posted once. That didn't look like him re-evaluating his read but more like him banking off the opinions of other players (you) who expressed they had a similar read.



If by "set belief" you mean scum read, then yes I did. The read was certainly not set in stone, but nothing J produced afterward during our back and forth convinced me otherwise. Again, I had no problem stating why I thought Glyph was town at that instance and I have since explained why that read has changed (and why my one on J hasn't).

YThis is just wrong. "Making it the center of discussion" is just another way of saying 'pressuring'. Pressuring someone doesn't normally lead to nothing. The point was to get him to participate. We have just seen an example earlier in the game that pressure is a good way to get someone to participate when HL was inactive and only had one post. Once the votes piled on, he came in and started paticipating. Glyph is by no means someone that should just be left alone because he doesn't feel like playing the game. Also, as I said, there was a second reason for me voting him other than pressure as well- to see how his wagon would build. You claim that you have a dumb town read on Glyph over scum because of this wagon. So no, "making it the center of discussion" doesn't "just lead to nothing".

Would you say that J doing this is a scum tell? If so, how?

Your last sentence "feeling pretty cozy here" implies that his response was scummy. I don't see how this is an indication of him being scum though. If it is, then you're practically agreeing that you are scummy for it as well. I don't believe you feel that you were being scummy, so for you to say that J is scummy for it is fake to me.
You don't see town motive, but do you see scum motive? This is why I believe these posts are fake. You're calling him scum because of his reponses, but there is nothing about his responses that indicate scum motive. You are simply saying "I don't see the town motive behind this". How would that make him scum? You don't mention at all during your back and forth how any of the things he is saying make him scum. That is what leads me to believe that you can't because they aren't indications of J being scum, thus you are being fake on your read.
Honestly I don't know what your scum read on J is based off of because you haven't said.
The flip floppyness was just an example that indicated he was actually thinking about his read and your intent. The main point I am trying to get at here is that you do not do this. Your back and forth should have been a means to further develope your read, instead you use it as a case in itself on the already made assumption that J is scum.

Kuz please do this. You were just complaining about J working around your question. You guys are both so hypocritical.

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J please stop trying to make everything Kuz says as scummy as he is doing to you. It is clear that he was describing, in his defense, past situations. He wasn't bringing up new points against you.

Gheb , if Kuz were to flip town, would you be more considerate of J being scum?

Something new to add:

Guess I might need to rethink my J read. I woke up just now with the full expectation thalt he was going to strongarm town into lynching me anyway and he certainly would have had the adequate means to do it, considering zen said he sitll wanted me gone. Yet he chose another direction.

doubt he would have given up that chance to gett rid of me as his main wagon pusher if he was scum

@J: I know where you're coming from with scumGheb for being very dumb/scum wrt my wagon but I'm curious as to what you have by "other things"

We have 24 hours for twi iirc lets use em

^Well this could be an explanation. Though you are right in that he is town. I just don't see how your read is suddenly changing just from that.

Said I needed to rethink my read, not that my read changed completely.

I feel better about J. Still not good enough to list him as a solid town read though.

Koozes sudden thought to rethink J is out of place here. His reasoning was because J unvoted him, yet J had been unvoting him through out the game and had even given up on Scum Kooz for a long while so why would this be different. Kooz had been tunneling J all game and had a strong scum read on him. Yet he suddenly rethinks it at this point because he didn't see reason why scum J would have unvoted. There was clear motive for why scum J would have unvoted as I pointed out in that post above. Kooz ignored this despite his supposed strong scum read on J. His switch here doesn't look legitimate to me.

 

[Hard Lemonade]

Appreciated. Like, a lot. I will go through that as soon as I can sit down and do so undistracted.

Request deletion of the mistake post that's so huge and painful to see.