KSSU: Revenge of Meta Knight Mafia - Game Over! Has Dreamland been conquered!?

[Xivii]

When does Tiger return?

 

[#HBC | J]

Warning you all in advance from the 11th to the 18th ill be sorta v/la... ill be bringing my laptop with me though i cant promise ill be on it often

In the quote.

 

[Tandora]

So, Tiger will be back in time for the deadline. Wonderful.

 

[Tandora]

Great. I had a pretty important question for JTB but now he's gone.

Also I don't get why people are voting people they aren't even pushing really.

Post lynch: Kuzi=town, Zen would be the person I'd look at and JTB still.

You seem pretty convinced JTB is scum regardless of Kuz's flip. Would you be willing to lynch JTB today since there's a possible replacement?

Have you considered JTB is town based on his pushes towards Tiger? When Tiger made some vague reasons for his votes, JTB tried to get him to clarify and Tiger never really responded to JTB's questions. Was that scum tunneling on JTB's behalf or a town player not wanting to let something scummy go unanswered?

Why don't you want to ask JTB the question anyway? Why not let us see what you're thinking? JTB hasn't been replaced yet, so he could still possibly answer.

 

[#HBC | J]

JTB's lynch is fine with me but not toDay. Kuzi needs to die for the reasons I already stated and I strongly stand by them. I didn't care for JTB's push on Tiger. Your pick one of "Is he is super scum or good towny?" question w.r.t. Tiger's unresponsiveness is silly. My question towards JTB was, "What happened to Kuzi being a strong town read for him? What is your reasoning for changing since you imply he is looking scummy now?" Also Tanny, you must have missed these questions and I would like your responses to them.

Also what is your opinion on Zen? Out of Tiger/JTB, who's the better pick for a lynch?

Second one I think I know who but give me a bit more reason as to why him over the other.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

All these "if kuz flips X, we should go after Y"-posts seem really hard to follow for me. I personally wouldn't quite know what to do upon a town flip of Kuz.

 

[#HBC | J]

Well Gheb, who is your second scum-pick regardless of Kuzi's flip?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think there's scum hidden in the conflicting stances between J - JTB and Ryker - Tiger. That's a pretty big list and thus a vague read. Plus kuz' flip hardly helps in that regard.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Just letting everyone know that I'm back and will get caught up asap.

 

[Gova]

 

[#HBC | J]

I think there's scum hidden in the conflicting stances between J - JTB and Ryker - Tiger. That's a pretty big list and thus a vague read. Plus kuz' flip hardly helps in that regard.

Although vague, I definetely see where you are coming to those conclusions. I agree to both of them.

 

[Tandora]

Second one I think I know who but give me a bit more reason as to why him over the other.

I think the second question is moot since JTB's slot has been replaced. I'd like to see what Nabe will contribute before making a current stance.

J, why are you asking me my opinion? I've been pretty vocal on what I think and why. Why the push? It's really not necessary.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Reading and posting tonight after work.

 

[#HBC | J]

I think the second question is moot since JTB's slot has been replaced. I'd like to see what Nabe will contribute before making a current stance.

Please tell me you aren't serious Tanny dear. There is still stuff to go on regarding his slot. Just because he is being replaced holds no standing on what he has done.

J, why are you asking me my opinion? I've been pretty vocal on what I think and why. Why the push? It's really not necessary.

Because I want your opinion on a person I can't remember your opinion on....? You've been vocal on well...Kuzi being town to you and that you dislike HL. You've said that you like J and you also dislike Tiger as well. However I asked your opinion Zen which I can't remember. I also now want your opinion on Gheb now because I can only remember his opinion on you, but not vice-versa.

 

[Tandora]

I'm just saying there's not much point in answering your question RIGHT now. I'll answer after I see some Nabe thoughts.

 

[#HBC | J]

I guess you'll just keep on dancing around me like tango Tanny.

 

[Hard Lemonade]

Prod dodge.

 

[Tandora]

I guess you'll just keep on dancing around me like tango Tanny.

What's your opinion? I asked you why you think we should look at Zen if Kuz flipped scum and I don't seem to recall a stance on that.

Also, why are you focusing on everyone but Hard Lemonade?

 

[#HBC | J]

At the current time, I don't care about HL just like I don't care about looking into Gheb or yourself more.

I also never said Zen should be looked into on a KuziScum flip.

 

[#HBC | J]

Tanny, to redirect the question back to you, why are you focusing on HL and not anyone else?

Especially moreso that when asked to give your opinion on others, you ignore it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Vote Kuz

-2

 

[Tandora]

Tanny, to redirect the question back to you, why are you focusing on HL and not anyone else?

Especially moreso that when asked to give your opinion on others, you ignore it.

I'm focusing HL because I believe they're scum. I've given reason after reason and been told that my reasons are bad. That really doesn't encourage me to want to give my opinion now does it?

Now, why don't you answer my question? Why does HL get away with consistent prod dodges without consequence? Why does Gheb get to say "I've given my opinion, you can read it yourself" and that's okay but it's not okay for me to do the same?

 

[#HBC | J]

Now, why don't you answer my question? Why does HL get away with consistent prod dodges without consequence? Why does Gheb get to say "I've given my opinion, you can read it yourself" and that's okay but it's not okay for me to do the same?

I'm annoyed at HL's prod dodge and especially coming from Ryker. However I have no substantially good reason to call them scum at the moment and I honestly can't do more with them then already done.

Tanny, do not pull that card. Zen/Kuzi have both tried to be vague with things and I pressured them to give me what I want. Gheb has answered my questions though and I know what he is thinking on players I care about. You, on the other hand, are just dodging questions to dodge them, for no good reason. I told you why I am asking you your opinion on certain people.

 

[Tandora]

I think Zen is town. He's been really vocal and actually pretty helpful with scumhunting.

I think JTB is town because of his attention towards Tiger. It would be easy for scum to just allow another player to say "X is the play" and follow the person without pushing for reasons why.

 

[#HBC | J]

Thank you for that Tanny.

I want Nabe/Kuzi to speak up very soon.

 

[Xivii]

Gheb have you already answered why you have such a strong town read on J? If so can you restate or quote it? If not, why do you?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think JTB is town because of his attention towards Tiger. It would be easy for scum to just allow another player to say "X is the play" and follow the person without pushing for reasons why.

So you're saying it's not easy to pretend being useful by pushing an inactive player? It's not hard to find a reason or justify that kind of push and I'm really distressed that this is enough for you to get such a clear town read on him. Since when is it a town-tell to pay attention to an inactive player? What about his attention towards Tiger actually makes him town?

Gheb have you already answered why you have such a strong town read on J? If so can you restate or quote it? If not, why do you?

Don't really see how that matters? J isn't a lynch candidate - if I have something to say about him I will not hesitate to do so.

 

[Xivii]

It matters because scum pull their reads out of no where since the already know who is town. You've been defending J since the beginning and I want to know what it was that gave you that strong read on him, especially so early.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's a combo of:

a.) Kuz case on him being horrendous trash
b.) Process of elimination
c.) Him generally playing pretty townie

 

[th3kuzinator]

Computer came back and then I actually had to travel up island the same day. Just got back from that so I'm here for a bit.

Going out tonight so I'll try to get some stuff done now before then.

 

[th3kuzinator]

And in regards to Kuz being scummy I'd like to add that his Day 1 play has been bad, his "case" and his pushes on J have been bad and that he's only living on his claim right now which is also bad because his claim really isn't that great. I really don't see how people can get town reads off him based on that.

You keep using the word "case" to describe my push on J. Show me where I actually made a case on J instead of just rebuking his points. There is no case to examine, unless you're talking about that scumJ meta quote which is hardly something to call a case.

Your "case" and pushes on me have been just as bad because you have failed to come up with independent reasoning for why I my D1 play has been bad. When questioned, you just responded that your reasoning was the same as Zen's. I've largely responded to Zen's points against me but you continue to just drive the same point home without showing where your point is valid.

As for my claim keeping me alive, I was perfectly fine with dying yesterDay as long as Zen followed up on pursuing you and J. Glad as **** that I didn't die because upon reading the thread last Night I had a change of heart wrt J, but it would have removed me as a questionable variable.

 

[th3kuzinator]

I am certainly not willing to vote J. I don't know what to do with Gheb and Kuz. I would really rather lynch JTB because I don't remember anything he's done besides catch that one interesting J post and post WIFOM or Tandora for being scummy from when I remembered coupled with the sudden unshakable town read from this ambiguous message that she keeps waiting to share.

People I'd like to lynch

JTB
Tiger
Tandora

In that order.

People I'd be okay to lynch if I had to and deadline approached.

Gheb
Kuz

This is weird. Says he would rather go for Tiger/JTB/Tandora but would take me or Gheb as a last resort yet he hasn't placed his vote on any of his main picks this entire phase.

After Tandora posts her summation he says he's reserving his vote on me (despite him saying that most of the stuff that others are saying is scummy about it is a null tell). He also immediately follows up that post with a

You can halt the wagon and wait on me if you want.

That was also 7 days before deadline so he can't use the excuse that deadline was approaching and he had to find a lynch. Very opportunistic and strangely cautious tone from our FUD master slot.

 

[th3kuzinator]

752 through 756 is a scummy exchange between HL and J, on HL's part. HL doesn't see to want to accept that J has a meta town tell on me and is actually trying to argue J out of having an opinion despite J saying its not a very strong point.

Why shouldn't be having that much of a problem with such a small pseudo-clear, especially when he only labeled me as die at deadline status.

Specifically this part

Well that's my biased opinion on it. Kuzi has done stuff on his own and not listen to others because he is him.

Because he is him, he has done stuff on his own that he could have done as either town or scum. You need to explain the rational as to why it is a town tell. I'm not trying to lynch you, but I want you to LOOK AT YOUR ****! You're wrong here, J, look back.

Unnecessary aggro here in response to J's statement. The "im not trying to lynch you" line also doesn't sit well with me because he already stated in his 743 that he wouldn't lynch J under any circumstances so I don't see why he had to clarify this, especially when a J lynch wasn't really even in the cards.

 

[th3kuzinator]

How is it playing towards town's win-con? The reasoning he gave isn't that great. His choice in no way insist that he is town. Scum Kooz could have messaged Tandora because he felt he could manipulate her while messaging Gheb would have done nothing for him. Kooz could also be buddies with Tandora without the ability to message. He was on the brink of being lynched. Him going against the agreed upon plan isn't very pro-town to me. It just makes his claim and trustablity even more questionable. All in all, you're playing WIFOM here. You can't say that he messaged Tandora with town intentions. We don't know what his intentions were. Unless you're scum and know he's town of course.

All this is true wrt your point that its all WIFOM. I could be manipulating Tandora or I could have realized that messaging Gheb was a waste of time.

However your reasoning for why my night action choice makes my claim even more questionable is also WIFOM so I don't see how JTB's interpretation and his subsequent town read explanation is scummy or "murky."

Koozes sudden thought to rethink J is out of place here. His reasoning was because J unvoted him, yet J had been unvoting him through out the game and had even given up on Scum Kooz for a long while so why would this be different. Kooz had been tunneling J all game and had a strong scum read on him. Yet he suddenly rethinks it at this point because he didn't see reason why scum J would have unvoted. There was clear motive for why scum J would have unvoted as I pointed out in that post above. Kooz ignored this despite his supposed strong scum read on J. His switch here doesn't look legitimate to me.

Yeah, I changed my mind. What of it? That specific instance only made me feel better about J, not completely flip my read around. J unvoting and voting me throughout the game is of absolutely no relevance because in that instance he unvoted me at an opportune time that scumJ could have largely capitalized on. The deadline was approaching fast (and we had already used an extension) and town was still expressing interest in lynching me at deadline. Unvoting me earlier in the day is a completely different story because there was no pressure to establish a definite lynch at those times whereas J basically had a free pass to lynch me. He could have just avoided the thread for a bit or he could have just agreed with other's sentiments and gotten away with my lynch with relative ease and little drawback.

As for your reasoning that I asked you to look at him upon my town flip, do you really think that would have detered scumJ from my lynch. He's somewhat persuasive and he had Gheb backing him saying stuff like "even if we mislynch Kuz, he has been playing so scummy and he's such a liability that his lynch is justified either way." I highly doubt he would have been afraid to lynch me just for the sole repercussions of you pursing him on my town flip.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Says he thinks Gova is gonna mod confirm the message. In case Gova doesn't Kuz says it is from Kuz.

Tells me he picked me over Gheb because he doesn't trust Gheb regardless of faction because even if Gheb is town aligned, Kuz fears Gheb won't pull his head out of his *** and will not respond. Also, he trusts that I am town and knows we've worked well together in the past. Finally, Scum was told Gheb was the target, so it is less likely to be intercepted or redirected.

Shows me the same breadcrumb he posted in thread.

Says he did a reread and discusses his feelings about J. Bascially the fight between J and Gheb felt too personal on J's behalf and J's general attitude is not that of a scumJ. Kuz said he was tunneling until he was willing to take a step back and reevaluate. Primarily J not pushing for Kuz's lynch when Kuz was at L-1 so close to deadline was a factor.

Zen is town because of how he reacted to J and Gheb and Kuz's request to look at J and Gheb when Kuz thought he was the lynch.

Kuz thinks JTB is town, but lazy and not involved in the game.

He's suspicous of Tiger because his activity tapered off.

HL is suspicious because unreadable.

Gheb is suspicious because of his tunneling of Kuz which reminds him of Dissidia where Gheb focused on one post early game. Gheb has mostly coasted by agreeing with Zen. Gheb's activity mostly spiked when J said he may bring a case up on Gheb.

Discusses who he may target on N2. I won't say who, but I agree with his choice.

Says his claim in thread is completely true and restates it for me.

Says he understands if I have my doubts about his claim and I don't have to reply if I'm uncomfortable. Only share with him what I feel comfortable. Only keep in mind I have only one message and it is unlikely he will get to contact me again.

Then he signed it Your Husbando.

Why do I think Kuz is town from this letter?
1) I've done a lot of mason style play with him and this follows his town train of thought. It is a matter of knowing someone well.
2) It's extemely affectionate in the manner of two people sharing an inside joke.
3) He says he was wrong. Admitting he was tunneling on J and it was wrong is a town move.

:/

this is a very basic outline of the letter I wrote. I gave much more reasoning for each of my stances in the actual letter. I think this is more Tando not trying to get modkilled than an accurate representation.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Kooz what leads you to believe JTB is lazy town over lurking scum?

I think JTB's slot is lazy town over lurking scum because of his willingness to die when Gheb and J wanted to swing around the wagon to him during the middle of D1. Before the wagon even started gaining support he immediately came out and admitted that he wasn't playing very well this game and wouldn't mind being lynched. JTB is a newish player and I don't think he would have been able to make such a concise request if he was scum. Nubscum players also don't really like to admit that they've done things wrong at all and his subsequent replacement request (he did so when he didn't have much pressure on him) doesn't line up with what I'd expect from him as scum.

 

[Hard Lemonade]

This is weird. Says he would rather go for Tiger/JTB/Tandora but would take me or Gheb as a last resort yet he hasn't placed his vote on any of his main picks this entire phase.

After Tandora posts her summation he says he's reserving his vote on me (despite him saying that most of the stuff that others are saying is scummy about it is a null tell). He also immediately follows up that post with a



That was also 7 days before deadline so he can't use the excuse that deadline was approaching and he had to find a lynch. Very opportunistic and strangely cautious tone from our FUD master slot.

Reads change, bro.

Made comment because I didn't know whether or not you wanted my reaction first or not. What about saying, "Hey, you can wait and see what I say" is a scummy reaction?

752 through 756 is a scummy exchange between HL and J, on HL's part. HL doesn't see to want to accept that J has a meta town tell on me and is actually trying to argue J out of having an opinion despite J saying its not a very strong point.

Why shouldn't be having that much of a problem with such a small pseudo-clear, especially when he only labeled me as die at deadline status.

Specifically this part





Unnecessary aggro here in response to J's statement. The "im not trying to lynch you" line also doesn't sit well with me because he already stated in his 743 that he wouldn't lynch J under any circumstances so I don't see why he had to clarify this, especially when a J lynch wasn't really even in the cards.

Where the hell are you even going with this? He's wrong, so why the hell SHOULDN'T I point him out as wrong? I told him I wasn't trying to lynch him in order to make him not think defensively and to think rationally.

If you're reaching for me to be scum, then let's see it. Stop dancing around the fact.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Posted the above post too soon, my fault.

What about my reaction to your request makes me town?

In my message to tando that was actually the weakest point I had for you as town. I like that you are keeping an open mind to other scum players and, in that instance, I liked that you were open to considering the possibility of scumGheb and scumJ after my town flip. I feel like you would have wanted to keep those alliances, considering they are two experienced players, intact after my flip. Also I like your proactive playstyle and constant probing despite this thread being mostly dead. You've by and large explained your reasoning for your thoughts and I can always see where you're coming from with your accusations. Just rings obvtown to me. In particular, I like your case and its points on me from a neutral PoV. You're wrong, but I like the avenues you are taking and the conclusions you're making from the info available to you.

What about your claim do you think Tandora could have still doubted if you had just proven it to her?

Scum networker had been brought up multiple times before the end of yesterDay and even though there being one in this game makes absolutely no sense, I wanted to clarify that it was up to her discretion of whether she wanted to respond or not.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Before I go, Tanny, after reading what Kuzi has had to say from you I'm more inclined to call him scum and you are being manipulated hard and it seems to be his jokes that is making you believe him more.

Vote: th3kuzinator

I'm leaving this here while I'm away but I'm gonna think about this more. I don't like what Kuzi has done at all and I have to take meta out of the equation. The only thing that saved him was his claim and then he went against town direct orders and I can see why he picked Tanny over Gheb for more then just the BS reasons he gave against Gheb.

We've already established that your meta reasoning doesn't hold much weight.

I went against town orders because I judged it would be more pro town to do so. Yes Gheb, we know you think there was 0 pro-town incentive behind my actions.

And my reasoning for why I didn't pick Gheb is very legit. J, explain to me why they are BS without using WIFOM.

 

[th3kuzinator]

EBWOP: Yes Gheb, we know you think there was 0 pro-town incentive behind my actions just because I didn't target you. Targeting you would have been worse for the explanation I've already given and the only thing I've hindered from my target choice is your ability to say that you received my message.

Do you still believe that I am lying about sending a message? If not, then why do you have reason to complain about whether you can personally confirm that I can send a message?