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Kong Kollege: Diddy Kong Tactical Discussion
- Thread starter GuruKid
- Start date
AbstractLogic
Smash Journeyman
This should be your motto
This is probably one of the best descriptions of the banana game mindset I've read. Thanks for taking the time to type all of that up, it was very informative.
Abstract, if DAing into someone on the edge in the hopes that they'll DI badly and give me a free and hilarious kill is wrong, then I don't want to be right.
~@~Tilde~@~
Smash Cadet
Great write up, and great set vs Fly Amanita, disqo.
I'm wondering, is there anyway to do ledgegrab to wall cling?
I'm wondering, is there anyway to do ledgegrab to wall cling?
Im sure there is a way to so it, as you can buffer instant walljumps from ledge grabs n melee, what i would recomend is lightly tapping down then holding into the stage. When done fast it should grab most walls, battle field or lylat or similar ledges are tricky and probably require a double jump.
DiSQO_BuNNY
Smash Lord
You can also hold away from the stage as your holding the ledge to drop without fast falling as well. So maybe if you hold away and then smack the stick back depending on stage, it could work.
DiSQO_BuNNY
Smash Lord
Mario. Ugh. I think I just might need a different character for this mu. Fireballs eat peanuts and bananas up, godly approach, shield stun on fireball is ridiculous, and then the rest of Mario is just as good. We either have to severely outplay him or hope he ****s up constantly. Otherwise, this might be our worst MU.
We have a few good mario players here, At the tourney saturday I'll try to get some sets in with them and get more notes on the matchup. I didn't find it that difficult when I played them before though.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
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I haven't played that many Marios but I think there might be worse match-ups, right now I'd say Fox (And my scene started putting Skyworld as unavailable since "everyone bans it anyways" wth, at least they did that to Rumble falls as well). You've always had a countered playstyle by Mario apparently, I camped the hell out of a Mario in a tournament as well as beat that one Mario you lost to in the Wifi ladder. You're dead set on playing the game like Brawl, you gotta use the peanut gun AD cancel alongside the bananas to have a chance at out barraging'em.
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The what now?
DiSQO_BuNNY
Smash Lord
Peanut gun air dodge cancel.
That's the thing, I'm not playing it like brawl. I'm really trying to get hits in and make things happen. The only times I've ever done well vs a Mario is WHEN I played the run away game. Diddy literally can't afford to be caught in shield vs Mario because of the shield stun he does.
That's the thing, I'm not playing it like brawl. I'm really trying to get hits in and make things happen. The only times I've ever done well vs a Mario is WHEN I played the run away game. Diddy literally can't afford to be caught in shield vs Mario because of the shield stun he does.
~@~Tilde~@~
Smash Cadet
Okay, I have a few questions:
1) What is shield stun?
2) I can pick up bananas at the very end of dash attack with Z, and with wave lands. Is there a mid-DA pickup option?
3) I really should be using the cstick for AGT, shouldn't I?
4) Can Diddy B-boost? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16e40V2L6hU
As for the Mario MU, I can't say much. Just haven't played him much. :-/
1) What is shield stun?
2) I can pick up bananas at the very end of dash attack with Z, and with wave lands. Is there a mid-DA pickup option?
3) I really should be using the cstick for AGT, shouldn't I?
4) Can Diddy B-boost? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16e40V2L6hU
As for the Mario MU, I can't say much. Just haven't played him much. :-/
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
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1 attacks on your shield lock you in it, the more damage they do the longer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53t9fDzdCyw You can Shield SDI while you're in shield stun, similarly you can only SDI when you're in hitstun which is what people do in Crazy TAS's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_Ljkph7q8g in this case the guy is making Sheik SDI -INTO- the combo set-ups
Here's a useful thread too http://smashboards.com/threads/kadano’s-perfect-marth-class—advanced-frame-data-application.337035/
2 I think one of his hands has to be near the banana during the DA when you press Z
3 yeah, I'ma make a video on AGTs hopefully soonish
4 Like Mario's cape off the stage? I'm not sure if he has any move with notice-able amounts of it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53t9fDzdCyw You can Shield SDI while you're in shield stun, similarly you can only SDI when you're in hitstun which is what people do in Crazy TAS's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_Ljkph7q8g in this case the guy is making Sheik SDI -INTO- the combo set-ups
Here's a useful thread too http://smashboards.com/threads/kadano’s-perfect-marth-class—advanced-frame-data-application.337035/
2 I think one of his hands has to be near the banana during the DA when you press Z
3 yeah, I'ma make a video on AGTs hopefully soonish
4 Like Mario's cape off the stage? I'm not sure if he has any move with notice-able amounts of it
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1) Its when you're stuck in shield when your shield gets hit by something. the number of frames is dependent on the strength on the move and qualities like electric or other hitbox types.
2) You can pick up bananas during the DA when your hands are on the ground.
3) You don't technically have to use the c-stick, but without doing so you either have to be ridiculously fast and consistent with your stick movement or give up a lot of flexibility. Its like not doing retreating aerials with the c-stick, its possible but not optimal.
4) He should be able to do it, because skidding off of ledges with special moves isn't really anything new to the brawl/pm engine. I don't really see many uses for it, because honestly just wave-dashing off the ledge and doing the move you wanted would be a lot simpler to set up. I'm also not sure of the traction diddy has relative to what he had in brawl
Edit: damn it Mad, ninja'd
2) You can pick up bananas during the DA when your hands are on the ground.
3) You don't technically have to use the c-stick, but without doing so you either have to be ridiculously fast and consistent with your stick movement or give up a lot of flexibility. Its like not doing retreating aerials with the c-stick, its possible but not optimal.
4) He should be able to do it, because skidding off of ledges with special moves isn't really anything new to the brawl/pm engine. I don't really see many uses for it, because honestly just wave-dashing off the ledge and doing the move you wanted would be a lot simpler to set up. I'm also not sure of the traction diddy has relative to what he had in brawl
Edit: damn it Mad, ninja'd
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To add onto number 1, this is a calculator for hit/sheild stun if you had any questions in particular. I'm assuming it works for PM as the shields are nearly identical.
http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...n-hitlag-shieldstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/
http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...n-hitlag-shieldstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/
AbstractLogic
Smash Journeyman
The Mario matchup is turning out not to be so bad tbh. You need to keep pressure on that plumber though. Diddy can play certainly play patient and go for the chips, but Diddy has some legitimate combos on Mario that need to be used more. Side-B Kick and crawling is great for fireballs and Side-B grab gives tons of followups. Diddy is also one of the few that can actually have a presence offstage against mario for early kills so take that into account. I honestly feel his metagame should tend toward his amazing ground speed and mixup game. He has all of the tools and then some to turn momentum and then plenty to wreck once he obtains stage control and controls the flow of the match. I feel like Sheik and Fox are definitely tougher than Mario to be honest.
Feel free to add me on skype fellow kongs: abstractl0gic
btw ADD ME GURU
Feel free to add me on skype fellow kongs: abstractl0gic
btw ADD ME GURU
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Diddy skype group? What are we, ness mains?
Im down though. I think im Softie.1 or S0ftie.1
Ill make sure once i get on my computer in the morning.
Im down though. I think im Softie.1 or S0ftie.1
Ill make sure once i get on my computer in the morning.
AbstractLogic
Smash Journeyman
I added you just now. The intent of this is to just have a quick reliable way to contact each other to possibly share videos etc, discuss P:M stuff, or just get to know each other. I'll do my best to be on as much as I can and I'm always down to talk with whoever adds me.
Alexander Duprey
Smash Cadet
I've been playing around with diddy and I was messing around with B-Reversals. B reverse peanut gun is pretty sick because you can use the momentum switch as a mix up on platform, or better yet add it into your movement if you are quick enough I'm sure you can be under a platform jump right, b reverse peanut gun AD and waveland on the platform above you.
Also B reversing Side-B (monkey flip?) gives you a few more mix up options on tech chases since you can change the distance on it. I feel like diddy has soooo many options it's unreal, and B-Reverse has added flashy-ness.
B-Reversing banana pull is pretty useless, but I like to use it to drop nanas over the edge.
Opinions on diddys B-Reversing? The more mix ups you have under your sleeve the better off you'll be.
Also B reversing Side-B (monkey flip?) gives you a few more mix up options on tech chases since you can change the distance on it. I feel like diddy has soooo many options it's unreal, and B-Reverse has added flashy-ness.
B-Reversing banana pull is pretty useless, but I like to use it to drop nanas over the edge.
Opinions on diddys B-Reversing? The more mix ups you have under your sleeve the better off you'll be.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
I haven't found B-reversing or Wavebouncing Side-b's utility, I sure wish I had a video. Though doing either adds a slightly different angle/distance than B-turnaround or doing it normal forward. B-reversing bananas feels like it has more utility to me, pulling bananas is like number uno of something you'd want momentum switching directions for: which wasn't available in Brawl. B-reverses and Wavebounces lend themselves useful after/for WJ'ing.
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DiSQO_BuNNY
Smash Lord
Switching momentum was in brawl.
I have a habit of b-revercimg almost every banana toss, mostly because i short hop most of them and dont want to change where i was standing. I do it with popgun less, and side-b quite a bit because its useful for tech chacing/correcting a miss read very fast.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
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It wasn't available for certain moves like Banana Pull, along with even B-turnaround not being possible with it. Brawl players going into PM like Boss never utilized the B-turnaround
DiSQO_BuNNY
Smash Lord
No, the turnaround momentum change was in brawl with banana pull. You could turn any B moves around.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
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Nope, you can B-turnaround and B-reverse with Popgun in Brawl: but you cannot perform either with the Banana Pull.
Idk, i just do both in pm so it doesnt matter to me.
I just got 5th at our biweekly. Tied with bunrsy (who i happened to team with lol, diddy/squirtle is a lot of fun). I only got one set recorded, was not the best set i had the night but yeah. It will be on youtube soon i hope. First game i 3 stocked gem (melee marth player) but he is a lot better than me in general (we play melee togeather alot), i made a horrible horrible mistake and lost momentum/focus for the rest of the set. He capitalized on my autopilot and 3stocked me twice.
I gota lot of sonic exp and dont think its bad at all. Spent like 40 min playing nazo, most of it sereous sets, 10 min of it or so in bracket. I think im figuring it out, i went from getting 3 stocked consistantly to only getting 2 stocked twice, and i took like 3 games as well. Almost beat him in bracket.
When i have time tomorrow ill re-collect my thoughts and look at my notes, i think i learned a lot today. Ill edit this or something. Dont feel like typing on my phone tonight.
Yo forward smash is crazy
I just got 5th at our biweekly. Tied with bunrsy (who i happened to team with lol, diddy/squirtle is a lot of fun). I only got one set recorded, was not the best set i had the night but yeah. It will be on youtube soon i hope. First game i 3 stocked gem (melee marth player) but he is a lot better than me in general (we play melee togeather alot), i made a horrible horrible mistake and lost momentum/focus for the rest of the set. He capitalized on my autopilot and 3stocked me twice.
I gota lot of sonic exp and dont think its bad at all. Spent like 40 min playing nazo, most of it sereous sets, 10 min of it or so in bracket. I think im figuring it out, i went from getting 3 stocked consistantly to only getting 2 stocked twice, and i took like 3 games as well. Almost beat him in bracket.
When i have time tomorrow ill re-collect my thoughts and look at my notes, i think i learned a lot today. Ill edit this or something. Dont feel like typing on my phone tonight.
Yo forward smash is crazy
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Double post but yeah.
Going to fill this up with sanic ramblings at at like 11 i think (thats mountain time, or cali time without daylight savings screw that stuff). I think im starting to get the mu, sonic has a lot of.... empty pressure
So sanic stuff. At first I was getting overwhelmed by Sonic's speed and mobility, and the sonic I was playing against (nazo) is pretty good at the character and great at covering options. I felt like I was getting smothered, not really pressured, but my options were being covered on reaction in a way that it felt all of my options were covered by the same action on his part. It reminded me a lot of how puff and samus players play (hbox is a really good example, hugs is similar, low-risk low reward, just covering stage and options) and then I started to treat it like that, and just stopped trying to force things. its stage dependent (mostly platform layout), but I found that just pop-gun AD (forward back or in place, depending on my positioning on stage) stops a lot of his safer options and if he takes it in anyway other than jumping over it you can AGT and punish. If you start treating it like a faster, grounded puff, you can just chip until you get a favorable trade that leads to something else. Its important to remember that even if it feels like some of your options got smothered out, it doesn't mean that they don't work... Playing calm and just sticking to fundamentals goes really far against that kind of play.
Sonic doesn't really have an approach that Diddy can't deal with when having a banana in hand imo. If sonic comes at you while spinning, you can just shield and you're fine. If he short hops, again you can shield any aerials and punish with most of your out of shield options. If he runs at you not spinning, he is probably fishing for either a grab or a reaction he can punish. Same with some of his short hops, he can bait out a reaction and tomahawk grab you. I think its really important to not jump the gun on any single one of sonic's movements towards you. I started just disrespecting sonic's pressure game and things worked out well. What I meant by "empty pressure" above is that he applies pressure by controlling space, and he only controls that space due to his better mobility than most of the cast. Sonic strives on bait/punish tactics, he is really good at putting people at horrible disadvantages just because they tried to short hop something. If sonic gets under you he will track your every move very well and make you eat a lot of percent so stay grounded unless you are pop-gun AD canceling from a slight distance. Sonic moves so fast that any attempted read is really punishable, but anything he tries to make happen once you stop whiffing things and getting baited is also punishable and easy to deal with.
For stages, Its really player dependent imo, Diddy does well on every stage and I think its more about picking to sonic's weakness and your own personal preference. I think the best options (for me) to take him to are dreamland and lylat. Dreamland is just my favorite Diddy stage and I'm comfortable there. I think Lylat is a really good stage to take sonic too though. It lacks the top platform for sonic to go to, and the 3rd lower platform stuffs out a lot of approach options for him. It also is rough on his recovery, Sonic has to be really careful not to go too far and get "battlefielded" and stuck under the lip.
Speaking of Recovery... Sonic is hard to gimp. Idk what you guys would do in this match-up, I just try to send him at low angles and harass with projectiles, if he tries to go to for a recovery option near the stage I bair him. Its rough.
/end sonic rant. I can't think of anything else about the MU right now, just don't respect his pressure as its really not there once you start recognizing the player's preferred approach and punish options.
Going to fill this up with sanic ramblings at at like 11 i think (thats mountain time, or cali time without daylight savings screw that stuff). I think im starting to get the mu, sonic has a lot of.... empty pressure
So sanic stuff. At first I was getting overwhelmed by Sonic's speed and mobility, and the sonic I was playing against (nazo) is pretty good at the character and great at covering options. I felt like I was getting smothered, not really pressured, but my options were being covered on reaction in a way that it felt all of my options were covered by the same action on his part. It reminded me a lot of how puff and samus players play (hbox is a really good example, hugs is similar, low-risk low reward, just covering stage and options) and then I started to treat it like that, and just stopped trying to force things. its stage dependent (mostly platform layout), but I found that just pop-gun AD (forward back or in place, depending on my positioning on stage) stops a lot of his safer options and if he takes it in anyway other than jumping over it you can AGT and punish. If you start treating it like a faster, grounded puff, you can just chip until you get a favorable trade that leads to something else. Its important to remember that even if it feels like some of your options got smothered out, it doesn't mean that they don't work... Playing calm and just sticking to fundamentals goes really far against that kind of play.
Sonic doesn't really have an approach that Diddy can't deal with when having a banana in hand imo. If sonic comes at you while spinning, you can just shield and you're fine. If he short hops, again you can shield any aerials and punish with most of your out of shield options. If he runs at you not spinning, he is probably fishing for either a grab or a reaction he can punish. Same with some of his short hops, he can bait out a reaction and tomahawk grab you. I think its really important to not jump the gun on any single one of sonic's movements towards you. I started just disrespecting sonic's pressure game and things worked out well. What I meant by "empty pressure" above is that he applies pressure by controlling space, and he only controls that space due to his better mobility than most of the cast. Sonic strives on bait/punish tactics, he is really good at putting people at horrible disadvantages just because they tried to short hop something. If sonic gets under you he will track your every move very well and make you eat a lot of percent so stay grounded unless you are pop-gun AD canceling from a slight distance. Sonic moves so fast that any attempted read is really punishable, but anything he tries to make happen once you stop whiffing things and getting baited is also punishable and easy to deal with.
For stages, Its really player dependent imo, Diddy does well on every stage and I think its more about picking to sonic's weakness and your own personal preference. I think the best options (for me) to take him to are dreamland and lylat. Dreamland is just my favorite Diddy stage and I'm comfortable there. I think Lylat is a really good stage to take sonic too though. It lacks the top platform for sonic to go to, and the 3rd lower platform stuffs out a lot of approach options for him. It also is rough on his recovery, Sonic has to be really careful not to go too far and get "battlefielded" and stuck under the lip.
Speaking of Recovery... Sonic is hard to gimp. Idk what you guys would do in this match-up, I just try to send him at low angles and harass with projectiles, if he tries to go to for a recovery option near the stage I bair him. Its rough.
/end sonic rant. I can't think of anything else about the MU right now, just don't respect his pressure as its really not there once you start recognizing the player's preferred approach and punish options.
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DiSQO_BuNNY
Smash Lord
I think socal is planning on attending a regional in your area soft. Cuz I have an mm with burns
How many people are you expecting to come out with you from socal? I know our TO for the event is planning for socal to come out, I'm not sure how many he has planned for.
And this is really exciting. I know there is one other diddy main in AZ, he lives in Tuscon like 3 hours south and is decently active in our sister community (is that like... a term?). 3 Diddys in bracket sounds really fun.
I can't give much advice against burnsey, I've only played him in some friendlies a few months ago. From teaming with him/ watching his sets I'd say he has really good control of the movement of both his squirtle and his lucas, I have no idea who he would go in the diddy matchup.
DiSQO_BuNNY
Smash Lord
Not worried about our mm at all. I have plenty of squirtle and Lucas exp. Not a problem.
Were thinking of doing two carpools possibly. Maybe 3
Were thinking of doing two carpools possibly. Maybe 3
DiSQO_BuNNY
Smash Lord
There's just so much Mario can do man. Like wtf. How has this character flown under the radar for 4 straight builds
He did get a recovery nerf a build or two ago, only gets one wall jump from up b, but yeah mario is really solid.
~@~Tilde~@~
Smash Cadet
Thanks for the answers guys! I have a list of techs I need to work on I guess...
AbstractLogic
Smash Journeyman
Start using more moonwalks guys. what's the use of being slippy slidey without adding more style to your play??? Moon Bairs?? How about Moon NAIRS??
Moon Nanner plucks just because!
Moon FH Peanut gun for extra swag. Please don't let me be the only one doing this or I will be sorely disappoint.
Moon Nanner plucks just because!
Moon FH Peanut gun for extra swag. Please don't let me be the only one doing this or I will be sorely disappoint.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
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How bad is his MW compared to Falco?
@
DiSQO_BuNNY
So do you still believe you can do B-reverse and B-turnaround with Banana pluck in Brawl because it seems like you can't when I tried. You played Brawl for years right, so I don't know what's going on here if we're mistaking terms or something. Maybe you're confusing Brawl+ if they made the pluck able to do those in that.
@
DiSQO_BuNNY
So do you still believe you can do B-reverse and B-turnaround with Banana pluck in Brawl because it seems like you can't when I tried. You played Brawl for years right, so I don't know what's going on here if we're mistaking terms or something. Maybe you're confusing Brawl+ if they made the pluck able to do those in that.
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Junebug's Item play is amazing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLn4qgnLy9Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FecfGRQa1J4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svIkO2q7i4Y
makes me really want to optimize my banana punish game. I do question him always wanting 2 bananas out at once though, but that looks like it fits his playstyle better.
I haven't even tried his MW, I'm going to have to mess around with it this weekend. Moonwalk> AGT just sounds sexy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLn4qgnLy9Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FecfGRQa1J4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svIkO2q7i4Y
makes me really want to optimize my banana punish game. I do question him always wanting 2 bananas out at once though, but that looks like it fits his playstyle better.
I haven't even tried his MW, I'm going to have to mess around with it this weekend. Moonwalk> AGT just sounds sexy.
AbstractLogic
Smash Journeyman
His moonwalk isn't too great tbh but the jump you get from it definitely has some style to it. I'd say it is like 10% less than falco's MW.
Btw Soft show me how HARD you are and add me on Skype fgt
Btw Soft show me how HARD you are and add me on Skype fgt
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
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That match against Nino, Nino needed to run Up-smash a lot more. Playing Melee he probably didn't utilize C-stick to make it easier. He'd get a free punish and instead go for a Nair or nothing at all. It was painful to watch.
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