Guide Knitting a Yoshi Chart - MU Portal

[salaboB]

Alright, I can't argue with the frame data, but I have excruciating difficulty punishing a lot of Yoshi's moves. There are many other people who complain about how everything Yoshi does is safe. I'm sure you guys have seen or heard it. I've even talked to ESAM in tourney and even he thought that everything Yoshi did was safe.

All of that has to be founded on something, so I must be missing a piece of the puzzle. I'm gonna put this on hold until I can find time to play one of you. It def won't be today, since my weekly is in... 5 minutes. >_>

P.S. What do these numbers [45b/1080g] mean? Those are taken from Rosalina's usmash data but I see them in all of the attacks.

Do you play more online or offline normally?

If online yeah, Yoshi is hard to punish -- because by the time you realize he's vulnerable, half the punish window is gone already (Thanks, input lag). You can get around this by recognizing when you've just shielded one of his laggy moves (ie, all of them) and starting your punish before it's visibly confirmed.

It could also be people just don't realize exactly how much lag Yoshi is sucking up after he does anything, but it's pretty major.

 

[sRocky]

I'm interested. Could you explain why we lose to Ganon, Little Mac, Lucario, Jiggs, Greninja, and Lucina?

First off, thanks for the quick response. Like I said this is based off of my experiences. I put Ganon as a -1 because from what I have seen he doesn't get knocked back as far as other opponents so I feel like he is more difficult to combo. The easiest way for me to KO Ganon is to get a Fair Meteor off because of the lack of recovery he has. Either that or Bair near the edge.

Little Mac. I don't know what happened. I used to be good against him. I have difficulty with facing the Super Armor and I can be a patient player when Super Armor is involved and not attack. I'm also patient with the counters. but it just doesn't work out for me. of course if he off stage he's done whether you Fair or not.

Lucario is a -1 for the sole reason of his aura ability. Yoshi just gives damage so fast that Lucario is able to use it to his advantage and by that point he is trying to avoid you and using attacks like Neutral B and Side B to give the damage back to you and keep you from getting the KO on him.

Jiggs is an aerial master with the multiple jumps, Bair, Fair, and Nair I feel like they come out slightly faster and farther than Yoshi's aerials, and considering Yoshi doesn't have the best recovery it adds up to you being so far off stage that you can't recover unless they accidentally hit you back towards the stage.

Greninja is deadly because he can string together Uairs or Dairs. They can time the shurikens to keep you from approaching. and the Fair is a great KO move for Greninja.

Lucina I explained somewhat. Since there is no tipper and no sour spot it is easier to combo and depending on where you are on the stage its is difficult to DI correctly and be safe at the same time.

Please respond with Feedback.

sorry my internet is slow and I posted it twice because it didn't show up the first time

With pleasure. Has your friend used Marth? The characters aren't different enough to warrant such a huge gap like that. If anything Lucina would be better for us than Marth due to the lack of tipper, imo.

No he does not use Marth. I do think he could be more of a threat as a Marth but he prefers using Lucina. I do also agree with you that the difference should not be that large but I am basing it on my experiences. Also I tend to find that Marth players online aren't too good. Its rare that I fight a good Marth. I usually fight at least decent Lucina's. Then again, thousands of thousands of people play this game so I could just be unlucky.

On what universe does Yoshi lose to Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, Lucina, and Little Mac?

Because I'm not Slice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzZQIOxCOHk

 

[Delta-cod]

First off, thanks for the quick response. Like I said this is based off of my experiences. I put Ganon as a -1 because from what I have seen he doesn't get knocked back as far as other opponents so I feel like he is more difficult to combo. The easiest way for me to KO Ganon is to get a Fair Meteor off because of the lack of recovery he has. Either that or Bair near the edge.

Little Mac. I don't know what happened. I used to be good against him. I have difficulty with facing the Super Armor and I can be a patient player when Super Armor is involved and not attack. I'm also patient with the counters. but it just doesn't work out for me. of course if he off stage he's done whether you Fair or not.

Lucario is a -1 for the sole reason of his aura ability. Yoshi just gives damage so fast that Lucario is able to use it to his advantage and by that point he is trying to avoid you and using attacks like Neutral B and Side B to give the damage back to you and keep you from getting the KO on him.

Jiggs is an aerial master with the multiple jumps, Bair, Fair, and Nair I feel like they come out slightly faster and farther than Yoshi's aerials, and considering Yoshi doesn't have the best recovery it adds up to you being so far off stage that you can't recover unless they accidentally hit you back towards the stage.

Greninja is deadly because he can string together Uairs or Dairs. They can time the shurikens to keep you from approaching. and the Fair is a great KO move for Greninja.

Lucina I explained somewhat. Since there is no tipper and no sour spot it is easier to combo and depending on where you are on the stage its is difficult to DI correctly and be safe at the same time.

Please respond with Feedback.

Please don't double post (internet duplicates are okay). Use the edit button if you want to reply to other people, but nobody else has posted yet.

I don't think your analysis of the match ups weigh the Neutral Game heavily enough. What can Ganon possibly do to us?

Little Mac isn't really that hard. I'm sure someone here could give a better explanation (the words escape me currently), but he can't reaaaaaaally do stuff to us, and his lack of recovery is hilarious. He's too polarizing to work.

Lucario still has no neutral game, though. I think aura is the only thing keeping this MU from being absolutely free for us.

Jiggs can't really gimp us, our recovery is too good. Just air dodge through her. She's also very light and can't really kill us normally either.

Greninja's Uair/Dair require him to be exactly above/below us. If you work on your spacing, I'm sure you'll see that these tools aren't nearly as powerful. His Shurikens are okay, but our eggs are much, much better. Are you using aerial Egg Toss? It really helps get around enemy projectiles, while setting up an approach.

I'm not too sure about Lucina, but the MU is basically the same as the Marth one. There are some nuanced differences, but you should be approaching both match ups the same way, and it really comes down to just outplaying your opponent.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Yoshi gets boned more than literally every other character in the cast on a flame choke, to be fair. His tech roll is junk. Coming at this MU from both sides, I think Yoshi just wins it, but not by much, only 55:45. If you know what to look out for when Yoshi is fishing for kills, living long enough to make use of rage is basically a given. Yoshi has an easy time racking up some early damage on Ganon, but Ganon doesn't give a **** about it. If you try to recover above the ledge against a Ganon that recognizes Yoshi's recovery options, you'll lose your stocks early and easy. If you let Ganon take stage control by running you to the ledge, you'll start to feel your options constricting. And landing Ganoncides is surprisingly easy against a character without a recovery hitbox who struggles to sweet spot the ledge.

If you add customs to the mix, I think the MU becomes pretty even.

 

[Fuerzo]

Yeah, Ganondorf is probably the closest MU against a low tier character. Yoshi still has the upper hand due to vastly superior mobility and eggs, though.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Eh. Little Mac can be a problem if we fight him. His ground game is ridiculous and our aerials can be beaten out if he just super armors though them. Grabs are nice against him but ours isn't fantastic. It's probably easy if we camp on platforms though. He doesn't force us to commit to anything so don't.

 

[sRocky]

I don't think your analysis of the match ups weigh the Neutral Game heavily enough. What can Ganon possibly do to us?

Little Mac isn't really that hard. I'm sure someone here could give a better explanation (the words escape me currently), but he can't reaaaaaaally do stuff to us, and his lack of recovery is hilarious. He's too polarizing to work.

Lucario still has no neutral game, though. I think aura is the only thing keeping this MU from being absolutely free for us.

Jiggs can't really gimp us, our recovery is too good. Just air dodge through her. She's also very light and can't really kill us normally either.

Greninja's Uair/Dair require him to be exactly above/below us. If you work on your spacing, I'm sure you'll see that these tools aren't nearly as powerful. His Shurikens are okay, but our eggs are much, much better. Are you using aerial Egg Toss? It really helps get around enemy projectiles, while setting up an approach.

I'm not too sure about Lucina, but the MU is basically the same as the Marth one. There are some nuanced differences, but you should be approaching both match ups the same way, and it really comes down to just outplaying your opponent.

It must just be my play style. I am a bit predictable in some of my movements. Either that or the good players I do face are just incredible at reads.

I understand your stance on Little Mac and I do feel like that's the case overall. It's really only the super armor that makes it difficult for me and on rare occasions his counter so I can't combo him in the air. If I want to easily rack up damage on Little Mac I usually just jump over him and Dair and I don't get hit by him or if I somehow do, he has more damage.

Lucario, he has no neutral game but by the time he hits you (with high percent) you get launched far away giving him time to start charging an Aura Sphere. I do try to throw aerial eggs at him as I am approaching but he would easily be able to dodge and hit me with the Aura Sphere or his side-B (the name escapes me) and continues to charge Aura Sphere. Since the hit box is so big Its hard to dodge even with an air dodge.

Jiggs, another "Fair" point. Again it's probably just my play style. Sorry for the pun.

Greninja, You can DI out of the Uair but they might predict which way you will DI and use that to their advantage. Dair I know you can just shield or roll but since its such a bad option for Greninja that I just don't expect it. I usually do avoid it though. I don't know why I brought it up.

Ganon, every hit he gets is powerful and if he gets Flame Choke off he can get an easy hit on you that has KO potential at high percents.

I appreciate the feedback.

 

[salaboB]

Eh. Little Mac can be a problem if we fight him. His ground game is ridiculous and our aerials can be beaten out if he just super armors though them. Grabs are nice against him but ours isn't fantastic. It's probably easy if we camp on platforms though. He doesn't force us to commit to anything so don't.

Without plaforms and since 1.0.8 I've been having a lot of problems against Little Mac (Stuck playing FG, mostly). With platforms would be a big help.

His improved KO power makes him really threatening if you make the slightest error so it's a whole game of being super careful around someone with some really quick, super-armored smashes.

 

[Fuerzo]

Which is why you don't play For Glory.

 

[ReturningFall]

I'm honestly curious what the thoughts are on the LM matchup. I personally don't really see how we win this without platform or circle camping (which does nothing to bring it in our favor if we don't get an early lead).

We usually agree Yoshi has trouble with fast characters and Mac is fast and hits hard. On the flip side, the more experienced Yoshi's seem to be of he impression he's not a threat. Eggs are a liability as his dash goes under them and we don't really have the frame data to throw stuff out (of course, he doesn't want to just throw stuff out either...). He obviously wins neutral in the sense that he counters anything we can throw at him, but we can run away and lame him out if we want due to superior aerial mobility.

From what I've seen we can't really trap him too easily and he can escape juggles with his fast (though weak) aerials and counter. From what I've seen, at a high level this seems to be both sides doing nothing as we each have really nasty punish games on the other.

Egg launch does funny things to careless Macs, but its obvious if you are fishing for it and Mac can easily use it to his advantage if you fish.

 

[Delta-cod]

From my time spent playing as Mac, I just haven't found his options in neutral to be great. Sure, his run speed is awesome, but what can he do out of that run? Dash attack is alright I guess. I've always found his grab a bit lacking, though, so that really limits what we need to worry about defensively (shield becomes safer due to bad grabs). I think our stuff like SHAD is good enough that he can't really afford to whiff his attacks while we're doing it (I don't think he's thaaaaaat fast, but feel free to correct me).

I can see landing being an issue because he runs so low and so quickly, but we SHOULD always have platforms, and he just can't cover that.

His real problem starts if we get a lead, because he'll really struggle to catch us, and we can abuse his attempts to do so. Our kill power problems are mitigated because he's kind of an easy gimp.

I don't think he's quite as free as I tend to make out (I'm aware that I speak in pretty black and white terms most of the time), and there's certainly potential to be outplayed, but I think we have a handy advantage.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Well he isn't forced to run straight at us (unless we have a lead, ty based camping). You're right about his grab. Didn't even think about that tbh. His throws are almost as bad as ours; shield is great. He isn't quite helpless if we run away but there's up B, jump on platform grab, side B mixup(?). We should have the advantage as long as capitalize on overcommitments and rack up damage safely.

 

[Delta-cod]

I know he doesn't have to run straight at us, but his walk isn't great, and I don't think his walking options are particularly powerful anyways. Dtilt is fast but I don't think it reaches very far. Ftilt is decent, and it actually hurts to get hit by it.

I guess my point was that his speed isn't that useful in most situations, because his options out of run are pretty bad imo. This mitigates one of his qualities that Yoshi tends to struggle with - opposing speed.

Characters Yoshi struggles with tend to be able to actually use their speed to hurt us, either because they have strong dash grabs/dash attacks, or because their aerials are really good and you can jump out of run and stuff. Little Mac doesn't have aerials, and his dash grab is pretty bad, so his dash options are pretty straightforward, meaning he can't really use his speed against us (movement-wise, anyways).

I don't think he has great platform camp punishes either. Up-B has knockback, but I don't think it's percentage damage is that great, so if we're not in danger of death it's not a big deal. I don't think him trying to get onto the platforms is really viable either because his jumps are just that bad. We should be able to get off any platform he plans on getting on before he's halfway there.

 

[ReturningFall]

FWIW, I have a friend who mains Mac and he likes following up his down throw with Up-B which can kill at reasonable percent (100% or so on smashville). I've yet to figure out how to DI away from it or do it myself so I can't say if it's guaranteed or not. At best it's a free shot he can take due to his faster fall speed. Apparently, he can throw the attack and then react to DI. We don't play frequently enough for me to really explore everything that Mac can/can't do and this is all before the most recent patch.

Throw range is pretty awful but, in principle, a Mac willing to master roll-cancelled-grabs should be able to get a considerable range boost to the standing grab range.

D-tilt is considered safe on shield, although I can't say if it actually is or isn't. More to the point, it leads into almost all his kill attacks depending on percent. A lot of Macs like to try and d-tilt or d-smash as you recover to the ledge. Our big nose and horrible sweet spotting problem doesn't help matters there. We almost have to recover high, which is scary and kinda predictable.

It sounds like the idea is that we need to somehow take the lead and run away/play lame to try and keep poking as he chases us. Good point on him not having great options out of dash.

The good little macs avoid committing to anything, however, until they learn your habits so punishing over-commitment isn't trivial. My thought is if there is anything we can try and throw at him to apply pressure, or is this just one massive mindgame to see who commits first?

 

[Fuerzo]

I haven't really faced good Little Macs (I've faced a lot of bad ones, of course). How useful are eggs, given Mac's speed?

 

[Delta-cod]

FWIW, I have a friend who mains Mac and he likes following up his down throw with Up-B which can kill at reasonable percent (100% or so on smashville). I've yet to figure out how to DI away from it or do it myself so I can't say if it's guaranteed or not. At best it's a free shot he can take due to his faster fall speed. Apparently, he can throw the attack and then react to DI. We don't play frequently enough for me to really explore everything that Mac can/can't do and this is all before the most recent patch.

Throw range is pretty awful but, in principle, a Mac willing to master roll-cancelled-grabs should be able to get a considerable range boost to the standing grab range.

D-tilt is considered safe on shield, although I can't say if it actually is or isn't. More to the point, it leads into almost all his kill attacks depending on percent. A lot of Macs like to try and d-tilt or d-smash as you recover to the ledge. Our big nose and horrible sweet spotting problem doesn't help matters there. We almost have to recover high, which is scary and kinda predictable.

It sounds like the idea is that we need to somehow take the lead and run away/play lame to try and keep poking as he chases us. Good point on him not having great options out of dash.

The good little macs avoid committing to anything, however, until they learn your habits so punishing over-commitment isn't trivial. My thought is if there is anything we can try and throw at him to apply pressure, or is this just one massive mindgame to see who commits first?

I don't THINK Dthrow > Up B is guaranteed. I remember doing it to some of my friends when I played them, but I didn't even get it every time and they're not particularly great at this game. To be fair, they were playing light weights, so it could be guaranteed on Yoshi. I think the escape option is DI to the side + air dodge right away, but I dunno. =/

I looked up a video for Mac's Roll Cancelled Grab, and wow, I'm impressed. That definitely makes grabbing a more viable option for him. And since you can basically Roll out of Dash, I guess we do have to respect grab.

Dtilt is probably safe on shield, at least against us, cuz our shield options suck.

Recovering high should be okay as long as we have platforms, and since every stage has platforms except Omega/FD (which should probably be banned), recovering isn't that bad.

It looks like the neutral is pretty heavily footsie based. I'd imagine well spaced Fair is an alright move to use, as well as Dtilt pokes. But I don't think we should commit too heavily. I think SHAD should still work alright since we technically have various options out of it.

@ Fuerzo I don't think eggs are too useful. Not only is Little Mac fast, but he also runs low to the ground, making it even harder to hit him as he chases us down while we camp. I think FH Egg Toss is alright though, because we should be high enough to avoid real punishes and the eggs can still reach him.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Hello, Yoshi mains! I apologize for any disruption I may be causing, but the Kirby Boards are now discussing your character, Yoshi! Problem is that we don't have too much input from the MU.

If you guys wouldn't mind, I'd love it if you would give input on this MU, with or without customs. We are right now trying a new MU system that urges all input to have some evidence (replays, brackets, etc.) to further validate it, so if you have anything like that on top of your experience, it would be much appreciated.

Here is the link to our humble abode, and I'll make sure that we return the favor and try to give back the input to your thread, for convenience-sake.

Thank you very much, Yoshi mains!

 

[Sinister Slush]

Updated OP, just did a small update of threads that're inactive, currently active, moved on without much discussion or choosing a ratio etc.

 

[Doublenickels]

Hi guys, lately I have been struggling a lot with Mario, and I don't have anyone proficient enough with Mario to practice against. I'm working on it by trying to learn Mario.

But right now, I was wondering if anybody has any tips against Mario to help me out, the cape is rough on me for eggs and just other weird stuff, like my jump getting caped. His smashes are so fast that sometimes I just get blindsided. I wish I had a video of my last Mario set for you but I don't, he knocked me out in Quarters

Does anyone think Mario is just a bad MU? If so I think I can handle him with a secondary/pocket (Luigi more than likely), thoughts?

 

[ividal]

mario is pretty tricky, since he is probably the most balanced character in the whole game, his fireballs can help him with zoning and camping, his cape gives him a reflector, his up b has a ton of priority and decent range for his recovery.
one thing you must have in mind is too never challenge his Up smash since mario's head is invincible, he also has some pretty safe aerials to land on like his nair or bair, my best bet would be to punish him when he tries to dash attack, grabs you to start the down throw chains or play extremely defensive against him, if you manage to get him of stage there are 2 ways to edgeguard him that i've found to be pretty efective, one being to wait until he uses his double jump and then use our nair and hope he gets hit by it, since without his double jump his recovery is bad, the other way would be with our dair, if he does his upb while we have our dair, we will trade hits but mario will be launched downwards, getting us a pretty easy kill.
Hope this helps with the MU

 

[Doublenickels]

mario is pretty tricky, since he is probably the most balanced character in the whole game, his fireballs can help him with zoning and camping, his cape gives him a reflector, his up b has a ton of priority and decent range for his recovery.
one thing you must have in mind is too never challenge his Up smash since mario's head is invincible, he also has some pretty safe aerials to land on like his nair or bair, my best bet would be to punish him when he tries to dash attack, grabs you to start the down throw chains or play extremely defensive against him, if you manage to get him of stage there are 2 ways to edgeguard him that i've found to be pretty efective, one being to wait until he uses his double jump and then use our nair and hope he gets hit by it, since without his double jump his recovery is bad, the other way would be with our dair, if he does his upb while we have our dair, we will trade hits but mario will be launched downwards, getting us a pretty easy kill.
Hope this helps with the MU

That's actually really helpful, I wondered about dair, but didn't use it in that most recent set, because I was concerned about his upB priority, and I'll try nair out next time as well.

 

[noft]

i saw a pretty neat idea in the Mario MU post, they stated something about, mu discussion to include stage preferences , stage bans, is there a way we could have that information in the main post under a spoiler? Anyone else have a hard time playing against Marths btw?

 

[Doublenickels]

i saw a pretty neat idea in the Mario MU post, they stated something about, mu discussion to include stage preferences , stage bans, is there a way we could have that information in the main post under a spoiler? Anyone else have a hard time playing against Marths btw?

Dude I hate Marth as Yoshi. I have so many pocket characters that I think I can handle him though, recently I've been considering Dedede vs. Marth, but that's more because there's only one Marth player out here and he seems to struggle with Dedede, idk how that MU really is.

 

[Fuerzo]

Like any character without a projectile, just stuff Marth when eggs whenever possible.

 

[Starphoenix]

On the subject of Little Mac, I find it is hit or miss on FG using Yoshi. Really have to change the normal tactics in order to fight a good Mac. Instead of trying to rush Mac you need to let him come to you and punish his aggressiveness. Usually I grab him and toss him over the ledge and if he recovers I'll punish him with Nair to get him back off the ledge or wait until he whiffs his counter and use Fair. Really just a test of patience.

As for Mario, personally, I feel that's one of the better match ups for Yoshi. Yoshi can get out of Mario's up-B tilt combo with Nair fairly easy, Yoshi is quick enough in the air to avoid Mario's Fair meteor smash, and Yoshi can keep enough pressure on Mario to keep him from getting his ground.

The character I've really been struggling with is Roy. His range is long enough to keep Yoshi out of reach, he's quick enough to chase me down and prevent me from getting set up for a mix up, and he hits so hard that Yoshi can be killed as low as 70% depending on the attack. Seriously, I wasn't to pull my hair out going against him on FG!

 

[Cat8752]

Advice on the Yoshi vs Shulk MU, I find myself getting caught by a lot of autocanceled back airs and unable to approach or punish Shulk while he walls me out with nairs and fairs.

Side question: What benefits are there to Yoshi's JC eggs because I see them being mentioned in the threads a lot. (Yes I know they're a good OoS option since there are no shield dropping frames but do they serve any other purpose?

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

JC eggs or ETS are good because they are less of a commitment than SH eggs, because when you jump and throw an egg you have to go through jump squat and land afterwards.

 

[Delta-cod]

On the flipside, we're more mobile during aerial eggs, which can potentially keep you safer. Both have their pros and cons imo. I think aerial eggs tend to be better for aggression though.

 

[Cat8752]

JC eggs or ETS are good because they are less of a commitment than SH eggs, because when you jump and throw an egg you have to go through jump squat and land afterwards.

1st. What does ETS stand for?
2nd. Would there be any difference between JC eggs and grounded eggs (because I turn tap jump off) can Yoshi use JC eggs with the double jump?

 

[Delta-cod]

ETS is Egg Toss Slide. It's done by running, jumping in the direction you'd like to slide, then canceling the jump squat with Egg Toss. Basically lets you slide a bit while throwing an egg.

No real difference between JC Eggs and normal eggs unless you're trying to get a slide out of it, or if you're trying to ET OoS (since we can jump OoS it's faster to JCET). You can't DJC Egg Toss because Yoshi's DJ rise isn't removed by special moves in this game.

 

[Cat8752]

@ Delta-cod
Ah thanks, that clears things up, now all I need to do is learn how to play the Shulk MU. Do you think eggs JC eggs OoS would be good for punishing shulks aerials on shield.

 

[Delta-cod]

@ Delta-cod
Ah thanks, that clears things up, now all I need to do is learn how to play the Shulk MU. Do you think eggs JC eggs OoS would be good for punishing shulks aerials on shield.

I honestly don't know much about the Shulk MU. I realize his aerials, when done properly, have low landing lag, so I don't think JCE would be an adequate punish. I think your best bet would be to use SH/FH Eggs OOS to get around his inevitable follow up (he'll probably continue SH Fairing/Nairing you), which gives you better mobility to get into position for follow ups should the egg connect.

I don't think we should be confronting the MU from a shielding perspective. I don't think we get much out of shielding his aerials in neutral besides not getting hit. Try focusing more on your movement to get around hitboxes, rather than trying to shield them.

 

[raizur]

Hello! As a kirby main, I tend to sruggle a lot against Yoshi. Granted, I know the MU is most certainly not in Kirby's favor, nor is it even, but I wanted to know if there are any tips you can help provide me so that I don't have to be too disappointed whenever I'm up against a yoshi. Thank you in advanced.

 

[Delta-cod]

Hello! As a kirby main, I tend to sruggle a lot against Yoshi. Granted, I know the MU is most certainly not in Kirby's favor, nor is it even, but I wanted to know if there are any tips you can help provide me so that I don't have to be too disappointed whenever I'm up against a yoshi. Thank you in advanced.

Merged with our general MU hub.

I think what you'll want to do is learn Yoshi's weaknesses in general and see how you can abuse them with Kirby.

In general, Yoshi struggles with

1. Fast, aggressive shield pressure (Yoshi has poor OOS options)
2. Characters that wall him out with good hitboxes and frame data (think Sheik).
3. Characters that he has difficulty actually hitting/comboing. This is compounded by a lack of reliable kill setups.
4. Characters with really good movement in Neutral, forcing commitments and generally being hard to fight back against (Yoshi lacks good, noncommittal options here).

As a Kirby player, I think your best bet would be to try to make something of weaknesses 3 and 4 here. Unless I'm mistaken, Kirby lacks the amazing frame data and hitboxes to really apply 1 and 2. However, his multiple jumps and small stature contribute well to points 3 and 4.

I'm not sure off hand, but Kirby might be capable of ducking under Yoshi's grab. This can really limit options in Neutral, especially because Kirby is small, making it hard to hit a grounded Kirby with aerials. Kirby also has multiple jumps, which you can use to bait out responses (say we're trying to punish your landing, you can fake us out then punish our whiffed attempt) and then punish. The multiple jumps would also help you avoid combos/juggles, and they definitely help you recover, effectively removing a lot of our main damage sources. This also makes it harder to kill you.

On the flip side, Kirby's horizontal movement is kinda slow, so being airborne is pretty risky if we get under you just because of our ability to shark you. Ideally you'd never want to be way high above us in the air. In neutral, you'd probably wanna hang out within a certain cone of safety that Yoshi usually struggles to deal with.

If you'll examine my amazing screen capped Youtube video plus MS Paint diagram, you'll get an idea of what I'm talking about. Basically, if you're hanging around in the air between those orange lines (Roughly speaking) you're safe from an immediate threat from Yoshi. If you're closer to Yoshi you'll probably want to be higher than the lines suggest, but this is just to get an idea. Basically, within this regions you can threaten Yoshi without really being too threatened in response. This, coupled with your multiple jumps, can force Yoshi into shield or to take some action, which hopefully you'll be able to punish.

As far as edge guarding goes, try not to chase Yoshi off stage. Kirby lacks the air speed to really threaten Yoshi out here, and if Yoshi passes you while you're out for the gimp you'll be getting edge guarded and you'll be sad. Yoshi can have a hard time getting up from the ledge, so try to force him there, and then punish his attempts to get up.

I don't think the MU is easy for Kirby, because Yoshi is pretty fast and has a nice projectile, but I don't think it's hopeless. There's definitely stuff to do, and I think learning about Yoshi's problem spots is a good first step. If you can identify what Kirby can do to make Yoshi uncomfortable and start abusing it, you'll see more success.

 

[raizur]

Merged with our general MU hub.

I think what you'll want to do is learn Yoshi's weaknesses in general and see how you can abuse them with Kirby.

In general, Yoshi struggles with

1. Fast, aggressive shield pressure (Yoshi has poor OOS options)
2. Characters that wall him out with good hitboxes and frame data (think Sheik).
3. Characters that he has difficulty actually hitting/comboing. This is compounded by a lack of reliable kill setups.
4. Characters with really good movement in Neutral, forcing commitments and generally being hard to fight back against (Yoshi lacks good, noncommittal options here).

As a Kirby player, I think your best bet would be to try to make something of weaknesses 3 and 4 here. Unless I'm mistaken, Kirby lacks the amazing frame data and hitboxes to really apply 1 and 2. However, his multiple jumps and small stature contribute well to points 3 and 4.

I'm not sure off hand, but Kirby might be capable of ducking under Yoshi's grab. This can really limit options in Neutral, especially because Kirby is small, making it hard to hit a grounded Kirby with aerials. Kirby also has multiple jumps, which you can use to bait out responses (say we're trying to punish your landing, you can fake us out then punish our whiffed attempt) and then punish. The multiple jumps would also help you avoid combos/juggles, and they definitely help you recover, effectively removing a lot of our main damage sources. This also makes it harder to kill you.

On the flip side, Kirby's horizontal movement is kinda slow, so being airborne is pretty risky if we get under you just because of our ability to shark you. Ideally you'd never want to be way high above us in the air. In neutral, you'd probably wanna hang out within a certain cone of safety that Yoshi usually struggles to deal with.

If you'll examine my amazing screen capped Youtube video plus MS Paint diagram, you'll get an idea of what I'm talking about. Basically, if you're hanging around in the air between those orange lines (Roughly speaking) you're safe from an immediate threat from Yoshi. If you're closer to Yoshi you'll probably want to be higher than the lines suggest, but this is just to get an idea. Basically, within this regions you can threaten Yoshi without really being too threatened in response. This, coupled with your multiple jumps, can force Yoshi into shield or to take some action, which hopefully you'll be able to punish.

As far as edge guarding goes, try not to chase Yoshi off stage. Kirby lacks the air speed to really threaten Yoshi out here, and if Yoshi passes you while you're out for the gimp you'll be getting edge guarded and you'll be sad. Yoshi can have a hard time getting up from the ledge, so try to force him there, and then punish his attempts to get up.

I don't think the MU is easy for Kirby, because Yoshi is pretty fast and has a nice projectile, but I don't think it's hopeless. There's definitely stuff to do, and I think learning about Yoshi's problem spots is a good first step. If you can identify what Kirby can do to make Yoshi uncomfortable and start abusing it, you'll see more success.

Thank you very much for the much needed information! Also, I tested to see if kirby can duck under yoshi's grab, and unfortunately, he can't. When going against a Yoshi as Kirby, would you recommend an aggressive playstyle, defensive? Basically, what's a generic strategy I should do?

 

[Delta-cod]

I think you need two gears, aggressive and passive/baity. In neutral, you can't be aggressive because Kirby doesn't have the frame data for it. You need to bait Yoshi into something and punish him, or make a read. However, once you've won Neutral and got Yoshi on the defensive, aggressive should work. Yoshi can struggle with strong pressure, and getting someone off him can be difficult. Just make sure you respect Nair as a combo breaker. If you go too hard you'll just get boxed out by that move. Space around it, and if you can bait it out, do so, as it's a long lasting move that is quite committal unless immediately canceled into the ground.

 

[raizur]

Thank you very much for the advice!

 

[Lukingordex]

I really hate the Mario MU, I really can't find a safe way to approach him and there's no camping game against him, he just dominates us in neutral. I'm also not a fan of the Diddy, Lucario and Fox Match ups.

 

[Fuerzo]

Remember that Mario also has poor range. Retreating aerials (especially bair) are great.

 

[Nikes]

I have a pretty good time in the Lucario MU, the key thing is remaining calm even though you pretty much spawn at kill % if he kills you first :/ I don't know if this really works against Lucario but I personally find rushing him down is key, provided you have good reaction time. It's tedious trying to get back in his space again once you're out of it, and Yoshi's speed lets him stay up close-just don't get force palmed...>_> If Lucario tries to Aura Sphere into Usmash you can Nair him out of it and save your skin which is huge. Depending on how good the Lucario that's giving you trouble is, you might be able to bait the charged Aura Sphere out of him as well if you aren't in his space, which will make getting in a lot easier, again just mostly looking out for force palm now. (Also, I'm positive our Usmash beats his Dair so it should be hard for him to get back down if in the air thus giving you stage control and a breather)

Don't really have too much advice on the other MU's sadly, haven't played any of them for a while I do have vids of me winning vs Mario and Lucario if you're interested, but again the skill difference might make said matches irrelevant...hoping this information isn't misleading or bad and that it helps you if even a little, best of luck.