Guide Knitting a Yoshi Chart - MU Portal

[muddykips]

If you are confident about being able to punish, and your shield is healthy, just shield the whole thing and punish. If Yoshi tries to steer away (so he wont land directly in your face), tilt your shield towards him. A dair by itself won't break your shield.

On the flip side, if you feel you overestimated how healthy your shield is, TRY to get poked by IMMEDIATELY pushing the stick away from Yoshi (there's no need to be careful not to roll). Rob's fat, so getting poked shouldn't be hard anyway, I think?

Though I don't know if Rob has any reliable punishes - I know his standing grab range is literally the worst in the game, for one thing. Yoshi will have 24 frames landing lag, but if that isn't enough time to land a smash or [dash] grab, don't go for it.

The point is for you to punish Yoshi by either killing him (duh), or putting him at enough of a disadvantage for you to safely regain your shield. If your punish is just something weak like dtilt > fair, Yoshi will quickly recover and take advantage of your low HP shield. Play around - see how far your usmash/dsmash reaches both behind and in front, grab a Yoshi friend and grind it out, etc; figure out your options.

(Also don't sit on platforms too much, since starting dair from under you means Yoshi won't suffer landing lag. Being under platforms is much better, since it severely [imo] limits his approach options.)

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Thanks for the very long, thought out reply. This definitely gives me hope for the MU. However, I do think you're under estimating my skill level a bit - which is fine, to you I'm just some smash boards rando who can't win a winning match up. I'm #5 in Wichita, Kansas. The Yoshi I'm referring to is Mr. Doom, #1 in Wichita, #2 in Kansas. So I think that's where my issues lie - he's on a higher level as a player than I am. This is accented by the notion that "Yoshi has trouble killing" and Doomsy himself has no problems killing me. I do know how to play R.O.B on a mechanical level, such as ac nair and shielding out of gyro charge.

I use laser and gyro constantly, my issue is he spaces around them then punishes me with an egg. I think my problem is that I'm using them like I would vs. any other char, and that I need to adjust for this match up. I try to camp, but I think he's counter playing me specifically and not my character. I'm not using laser and gyro intelligently enough in this match up. So camping hasn't been working for me.

Regarding gimping Yoshi - I do not think R.O.B does this all too well, but I could probably just get better at it. Gyro isn't actually terrible for breaking his DJ armor, but I've noticed nair bair, and fsmash are best for this. Strong laser is also ok considering it's range. I made a list of how all of R.O.B's moves interact with Yoshi's DJ armor - https://smashboards.com/threads/yoshi-heavy-armor-break-percents.430030/

Also I don't have any current replays - only ones from months ago when I was even worse.

Sorry for the assumption! I'd love to play you and Mr. Doom one day since you're both PR versions of each of my mains. Sad to say we don't have any R.O.B. or Yoshi players ranked that highly in our scene. Closest we have is Buster for Yoshi in Youngstown (I think I might actually be tied with him in skill - he does better in his own scene than I do in mine, but when we play the same bracket we usually place the same), and we have Tekno nearby as a sponsored R.O.B./Sheik who I've got some tips from. Both are a bit far so I don't see them too often.

 

[Crome]

(Also don't sit on platforms too much, since starting dair from under you means Yoshi won't suffer landing lag. Being under platforms is much better, since it severely [imo] limits his approach options.)

I agree with this entirely. He's actually started banning bf against me for this reason.

Sorry for the assumption! I'd love to play you and Mr. Doom one day since you're both PR versions of each of my mains. Sad to say we don't have any R.O.B. or Yoshi players ranked that highly in our scene. Closest we have is Buster for Yoshi in Youngstown (I think I might actually be tied with him in skill - he does better in his own scene than I do in mine, but when we play the same bracket we usually place the same), and we have Tekno nearby as a sponsored R.O.B./Sheik who I've got some tips from. Both are a bit far so I don't see them too often.

You're fine, it's a reasonable assumption to make.

I don't travel to big tournaments often at all (Only twice, actually) but Mr. Doom travels quite a bit. If you ever go to a regional/national in the midwest he'll probably be there. Feel free to hit me up sometime either on here or on twitter (@Seth_Boles) if you plan on traveling near us.

 

[Y2Kay]

Ribbit! Come speak about the Greninja Matchup!

https://smashboards.com/threads/mas...session-9-bowser-jr-yoshi-10-16-10-23.438657/

 

[GSM_Dren]

Cast Revive Thread.
Hi friends, I recently came up with my own MU chart for yoshi. Seeing how not everyone has a twitter I'm posting it here as well. Currently I would put yoshi at the 20-25th spot and therefore is a solid mid-tier character. His lack of kill confirms is crippling and grab game is easily bottom tier (throw kill, actual 50/50 dthrow when?). This is definitely not a perfect MU chart as we all have different regions with varying player skill levels & character variety, so of course opinions will differ. IMO, for my chart I think characters can probably move up or down a tier, but no more than twice (probably only a few exceptions, so please prove me wrong!). I would like to get the yoshi boards input and feedback, as discussing about our favorite dinosaur is what I like to hear. Let's get the egg rolling.

Feedback I've gotten so far from twitter/discord include:
@RaptorTEC
Only Disadvantaged against Cloud, Mewtwo, Diddy
Slight disadvantage Sheik and Bayo
Even Ryu, MK, Sonic, Corrin, Mario. TL, WFT, Pacman even maybe?
Slightly advantage against Rob, Peach, DK

Blob
Slight Disadvantage to Lucas
Even Rosa, Fox
Slight Adv/Adv Villager, Falcon

MiLE
Even Olimar, Falco, Robin, Ike, Link, Wario
Slight Adv Peach, Olimar, DK

Others
MK disadv/slight disadv
Rosa, Mario even
Ryu even/slight adv (?!)
DK slight adv

 

[YoshiYoshi]

Regarding the above MU spread, being completely honest with myself, I would create a new category called impossible and shift each tier downward towards it. Disadvantage becomes impossible, slight disadvantage becomes disadvantage, etc all the way up the list.

I think there are reasons that this board is dead and this game is dying. One of those is that Yoshi isn't viable against even competition. You really have to be banking on the opponent not knowing the MU and making tremendous amount of mistakes to play a match with Yoshi and feel as though you have a favorable MU against the vast majority of the cast.

The circuit Yoshi mains are often just better players than their opponents fundamentally and technically. Maybe they don't want to feel bad beating on their friends with a disadvantaged character, I don't know. But when playing against similarly fundamentally and technically sound players, Yoshi's flaws are exposed in an almost comical fashion.

Even stated as it is, the list only serves to prove that Yoshi isn't even modestly viable in a competitive setting. Having disadvantage Cloud, Diddy, Bayo, Rosa, and Sheik is a death knell. Yoshi can only hope to mop up the scrubs and maybe get top 16. But even against inexperienced players, each character has superior frames and/or range one way or another that make victory for Yoshi a matter of punishing mistakes.

I'm specifically triggered by the Cloud MU. I very rarely play against good Clouds, but when I do, it's obvious that the character has just too many advantages on Yoshi. There is not a single move that can be removed from Cloud that would make the MU good for Yoshi. It's 'winnable' in the sense that maybe the other player uses the wrong moves or playstyle, but you just can't beat a Cloud at the top of his game. Too many serious disadvantages in range, offensive and defensive frames and knockback.

Maybe that is already accepted, but most other MUs are worse than most players would like to admit. There aren't as many great fundamental and technical players using them, but when they are, the very same disadvantages found against the top tiers are equally present. It's just a matter of the opponent knowing how to execute and knowing how to adapt. There aren't many ways for Yoshi to execute and adapt in these situations. Yoshi's threats require fewer solutions, whereas other characters have approaches that are impossible to consistently predict, react to, or punish.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Glad someone's finally doing it!

IMO, I would make these changes (move named characters into these categories):

Slight Disadvantage:
R.O.B.
Pikachu
Peach
Ness

Even:
Bowser

Slight Advantage:
DK
Zelda

Advantage:
Pac-Man

Reasoning behind everyone I moved to Slight Disadvantage is these are characters who can wall us out and make it very hard to get in. Ness can play keep-away until he kills with back throw; Peach hovering at just above head height and spamming fair/dair is very hard to deal with; A Pikachu who knows how to use Quick Attack can get in and combo us (though we can kill it pretty easily if we gain momentum). R.O.B. keeps us out and is hard to kill.

Bowser is Even, leaning on Slight Disadvantage. We can combo him pretty hard, but once he has rage he can kill us at like 65%.

DK is close to being an Advantage for us, but cargo uthrow > uair still kills us stupidly early. We do make it difficult for him to get that though. Zelda moves up because she also has tools to keep us out, though once we get in there's little she can do to stop us besides Dsmash or B punish.

Pac-Man... you'd think his projectiles would keep us out, but we're able to use them against him - specifically, Hydrant.

 

[Sharky]

Well...this is kinda dead looking =/

I dropped in here to at least reference a chart in the op, but it seems the chart never got filled in.

Let's do something about that.

Edit: just to be sure, my phone isn't being lame and the chart in the op is filled with a lot of ?/?'s, right?

 

[Sinister Slush]

I never got to it cause a combination of smashboards being a bit inactive over the years so nobody on to get stuff done, and esports.
Not many wanna work on things these days unless a top player of said character or just in general make a list over well known figures in the community. You're more inclined to have people quote say salem or Zero's tier list over 4BR/smashboards, just examples but more likely.

For Yoshi's MU chart, people would only wanna know what raptor wall and seth feel Yoshi's MUs are over what a group of well known players in the community that's worked on it thinks even if there's 8 or so different opinions with one of the 3 included.
Even the used to be smashboards centric discord that I made has slowly petered out overtime due to the game being less fun and not kind to the Yoshi meta or everyone moving on.

If you wanted a general consensus of Yoshi's worst MUs for a starting point, than it'd be Cloud Bayo Diddy MK Mewtwo. Not my opinion, mostly gathered up from multiple MU charts I've seen over the years.

 

[Delta-cod]

I'd like to think that the problem was in getting other character boards to participate with us. I think we did a pretty alright job in staying active, but it's hard to get MU discussion going when the other side... never says anything. And then eventually we petered off.

We could always just do it from our point of view, however. I'd like to think I'm good at prodding people to get good analyses out of their experience.

Actually nah I'll stake my reputation on being able to do that. I'm going for my teacher certification I better be good at questioning people.