Guide Knitting a Yoshi Chart - MU Portal

[Sinister Slush]

Im pretty sure Yoshi wins against Marth. Against Roy I dont really know. I always beat the Roy player at my local scene. But I think I saw in a video made by ZeRo that he thinks Roy wins the MU (which i disagree with).

He also said in that video that Roy is top tier.
Take anything Zero says with a grain of salt, he just tries to be the first one that throws his opinion out there. This is also the same guy that said there's nothing wrong with Sheik.

As for Marth it's mixed, prolly even/50-50 due to Raptor still sometimes having problems with his local Marth Mr.E

 

[WalrusBiscuit]

He also said in that video that Roy is top tier.
Take anything Zero says with a grain of salt, he just tries to be the first one that throws his opinion out there. This is also the same guy that said there's nothing wrong with Sheik.

As for Marth it's mixed, prolly even/50-50 due to Raptor still sometimes having problems with his local Marth Mr.E

I always take it with a grain of salt. I said that I disagreed with him.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yeah but mostly responding to that cause...
Ya brought it up in the first place as if it had a small bit of importance to the discussion. If ya knew it was wrong and horrible, you wouldn't bring up Roy at all.

 

[WalrusBiscuit]

Yeah but mostly responding to that cause...
Ya brought it up in the first place as if it had a small bit of importance to the discussion. If ya knew it was wrong and horrible, you wouldn't bring up Roy at all.

I wanted to give my own opinion on Roy though.

 

[The Wall]

Roy is a character designed to read you doing something dumb with either an F smash, Up smash, or some sort of powerful tilt to kill you. He really doesn't have setups like other characters do and has lackluster recovery (Any lateral hit near the ledge has a chance to outright kill him). Hell I'd put Bowser above him in their current states just because Bowser has equal if not more power, more weight, better recovery and a kill confirm off up throw.

Yoshi's matchups that are difficult amount to Sheik, Diddy, MetaKnight, Mario, and maybe Pikachu. I'd put Diddy as the worst, Sheik second worst, MK third, Mario / Pikachu are probably a 50/50 with character skill being the determining factor. Rosa can have her moments though I haven't fought Dabuz enough times yet to really give a definitive opinion on that matter.

 

[Skitrel]

Roy is a character designed to read you doing something dumb with either an F smash, Up smash, or some sort of powerful tilt to kill you. He really doesn't have setups like other characters do and has lackluster recovery (Any lateral hit near the ledge has a chance to outright kill him). Hell I'd put Bowser above him in their current states just because Bowser has equal if not more power, more weight, better recovery and a kill confirm off up throw.

Yoshi's matchups that are difficult amount to Sheik, Diddy, MetaKnight, Mario, and maybe Pikachu. I'd put Diddy as the worst, Sheik second worst, MK third, Mario / Pikachu are probably a 50/50 with character skill being the determining factor. Rosa can have her moments though I haven't fought Dabuz enough times yet to really give a definitive opinion on that matter.

I think people have been split on the swordies in the Yoshi players due to the many different playstyles Yoshis have. My "click" moment came when I changed my playstyle for them. I predominantly play a very SHeggthrow heavy playstyle relying on eggs to provide a buffer zone that keeps me safe.

Pretty much the entire sword using cast of the game doesn't care about eggs and can attack straight through them, breaking the egg and connecting a hit on us.

I hypothesise that other Yoshis struggling with the matchups have a similar reliance on eggs and lack of respect for opponents due to the safety their eggs usually provide.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

I think people have been split on the swordies in the Yoshi players due to the many different playstyles Yoshis have. My "click" moment came when I changed my playstyle for them. I predominantly play a very SHeggthrow heavy playstyle relying on eggs to provide a buffer zone that keeps me safe.

Pretty much the entire sword using cast of the game doesn't care about eggs and can attack straight through them, breaking the egg and connecting a hit on us.

I hypothesise that other Yoshis struggling with the matchups have a similar reliance on eggs and lack of respect for opponents due to the safety their eggs usually provide.

I concur, this is changing as we adapt. Marth and Lucina have stopped being a problem for me ages ago, and my problems with Link/Tink stem more from projectile camping than his sword. Cloud is new, so lack of experience could be the bigger reason why he seems a bad MU right now - I recall feeling the same way about Shulk early on, but then I adapted a new playstyle for him and that quit being a problem too.

Ike and Roy kind of stand out as they rely on punishing aggression, so their playstyles are designed for us. But again, some adaptation will overcome that.

 

[Pixel_]

Should I make a Corrin MU thread?

 

[Delta-cod]

If you feel like you want to start discussion on the MU, then sure!

 

[Fuerzo]

Might be worth talking about Marth/Lucina again, given that they received major buffs.

 

[CHOMPY]

Hey guys, the Dark Pit/Pit boards are discussing the Yoshi matchup, so I came here to invite you guys to it.

Please go to our /matchup thread below.

http://smashboards.com/threads/batt...scussion-cloud-yoshi-and-marth.414936/page-11

 

[Sinister Slush]

The long awaited update..... a million people have been doing character MU spreads lately so kinda motivation to fix this up.
A clean slate finally. All previous discussions are super outdated and old MU ratios are removed (like shulk vs Yoshi being 50:50 since both got some changes since the discussion period) so deleting a lot of stuff.


I'll most likely want to create a thread for maybe 2 characters and discuss it for 2-3 weeks before agreeing to a final ratio unless we just wanna do random matchup discussion without any schedule. Though we might have a thread for a character already so we'd need to look.
Hopefully another patch doesn't pop up to buff/nerf more characters/fix glitches for Corrin and Bayo.

What do you all want to do?

Edit: 13,333 postcount WHOOOOOOAAAA

Stuff I updated - Added all DLC characters, went to every board to add new MU threads if any made or locked for new ones, fixed some misspellings and other non-important shizz.

 

[Cat8752]

Wait don't delete all of it just have something saying that they're outdated. We should still archive our information, at least until we can update it.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Oh, didn't think anybody would care to read it all to be quite frank.
Bit too late for that, doesn't matter much anyways cause only Matchups we discussed intensively was Shulk Fox and I think Rosalina, everything else was the other character boards doing it without us saying anything while Yoshi boards just kinda made a million threads but never finished discussing.

 

[Egg.]

I've been wanting to discuss the MUs with the DLC characters and post-buff Marth, but it may be better wait until we've had more experience with them before we do anything in-depth? In the meantime, I think it might be best to start with the top tiers and move on from there.

 

[Choco]

This thread dead? I'm willing to discuss matchups. In particular, I'd like know more about why some Yoshis don't have trouble with sword characters, while I think Cloud in particular is a terrible matchup.

 

[Cat8752]

Most Yoshis struggle with swords and with Cloud, the general consensus is that he's a terrible matchup. He can be edgeguarded but he posses the recovery mixups (including ways to snap the ledge,) and the ability to stay onstage to make him a difficult matchup for Yoshi and many others.

 

[Pixel_]

I think the fact that Cloud can land so well makes him a problem, too; one of the easiest ways to get a kill is Up Smash or Uair, which are both harder to land on Cloud.

 

[Drarky]

The Mega Man community's going to talk about the Yoshi Match Up, and we will love to hear some thoughts from the Yoshi users too!

http://smashboards.com/threads/boss...-0-week-3-pikachu.431933/page-3#post-21008664

 

[Sinister Slush]

This thread dead? I'm willing to discuss matchups. In particular, I'd like know more about why some Yoshis don't have trouble with sword characters, while I think Cloud in particular is a terrible matchup.

Yes and No
Yes cause it's hard to get most Yoshi players to discuss or choose what we should start up on or how we should approach it.

No cause patches constantly changing things, 1.1.5 being super recent and out of nowhere changing matchups heavily or a bit with Sheik ZSS etc. might make it a toss up of maybe making Sheik vs Yoshi 50/50 as an example.

The Mega Man community's going to talk about the Yoshi Match Up, and we will love to hear some thoughts from the Yoshi users too!

http://smashboards.com/threads/boss...-0-week-3-pikachu.431933/page-3#post-21008664

Will edit dis into the OP

 

[Skyfox2000]

I'm a and main. I'm wondering how well does Yoshi do in the Match-up between these two? Both Bayonetta and Cloud got some nerfs. I would imagine that Yoshi does fairly well against Cloud in my opinion. What are you guys thoughts?

 

[KenboCalrissian]

I'm a and main. I'm wondering how well does Yoshi do in the Match-up between these two? Both Bayonetta and Cloud got some nerfs. I would imagine that Yoshi does fairly well against Cloud in my opinion. What are you guys thoughts?

I've been labbing against a Bayonetta main who stomped M2K in friendlies at Shuffle last week (no kidding, I have a picture of them playing together), and man is she a bad MU for Yoshi. Taking his word over my own; Yoshi is particularly susceptible to her 0-death combo. If we DI down during her second Up+B, it puts us in a worse position for the last hitbox and it will actually kill us two moves before the combo is complete. Yoshi and DK are the only two characters he knows who suffer to this*. Additionally, I've tried DJing out of her combo hoping super-armor would cover it, but I think she hits us before armor comes into effect so she just eats our jump - maybe there's a specific timing where it will and won't work. I haven't found the best way to approach Bayonetta yet - it seems like all I can hit with is dash attacks, and that eventually gets witch-timed.

We have to play extremely defensive against Bayo; all of our approaches put us into a position that can get us combo'd, especially if we're in the air where we want to be. However, Bayonetta has trouble approaching us too, and we can punish her hard if we're patient enough. Keep in mind though that Bayonetta has the quickest walk-shield in the game - if you see her walking rather than running, know that your attacks will most likely fail to connect. That pretty much means 90% of the neutral game is spent camping eggs vs. guns... and she'll win the camping fight handily.

EDIT: *Apparently, the latest patch opened up more characters to this vulnerability, including Captain Falcon. There could be more.

 

[Delta-cod]

Additionally, I've tried DJing out of her combo hoping super-armor would cover it, but I think she hits us before armor comes into effect so she just eats our jump - maybe there's a specific timing where it will and won't work.

Just so you know, DJ armor starts on frame 1 of DJ. So either you're getting hit before you get the DJ, or the move has wonky knockback properties that are eating the armor.

 

[100AngryTurtles]

Well it is heavy armor rather than super armor. Moves at higher percents will eat the armor

 

[Cat8752]

Cloud definitely has an advantage over Yoshi. Forces him to approach with limit charge, keeps him away with his giant sword, and is able to contest Yoshi's mobility once he gets limit charged (which is very often.)

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Well it is heavy armor rather than super armor. Moves at higher percents will eat the armor

This is while being 0-death'd. It is safe to assume low percents.

I think it's a matter of trying to jump in the middle of her move, as opposed to jumping in between moves - but I still haven't successfully DJ'd out of her combo, so I don't know whether it's possible.

I started playing Kirby for this MU because learning a new character honestly feels like less effort than getting anywhere with Yoshi against Bayo. I truly think this is Yoshi's first and only hard-counter - however, I will qualify that by reiterating that the Bayo I'm testing against is "he beat M2K in friendlies"-level good, so there's at least some skill-difference bias in that assessment.

Cloud definitely has an advantage over Yoshi. Forces him to approach with limit charge, keeps him away with his giant sword, and is able to contest Yoshi's mobility once he gets limit charged (which is very often.)

Eggs. Eggs all the time. If he's camping Limit Break, break an egg over his face. Keep him rolling or, better yet, rack up damage. You'll eventually force him to approach. If he doesn't and he's just rolling everywhere, call it and grab him.

Don't forget we have the best shield in the game. Cloud's smashes hurt, but we can shield-punish whatever he throws at us. Uair can be tricky because Cloud's dair beats it, but you'll find openings.

You do have to play this matchup a little differently than others, just like with any other sword user, but it's easier because he doesn't have a counter. Just be aware of his fast moves (uair, dair, and ftilt are the main problems), and this can be a 50/50. You just have to know what to look out for.

 

[Cat8752]

Eggs. Eggs all the time. If he's camping Limit Break, break an egg over his face. Keep him rolling or, better yet, rack up damage. You'll eventually force him to approach. If he doesn't and he's just rolling everywhere, call it and grab him.

Don't forget we have the best shield in the game. Cloud's smashes hurt, but we can shield-punish whatever he throws at us. Uair can be tricky because Cloud's dair beats it, but you'll find openings.

You do have to play this matchup a little differently than others, just like with any other sword user, but it's easier because he doesn't have a counter. Just be aware of his fast moves (uair, dair, and ftilt are the main problems), and this can be a 50/50. You just have to know what to look out for.

Honestly I don't see why Cloud would ever care about eggs, all he has to do is shield them out of limit and keep charging. We don't really have the best shield in the game, it's tiny and gets broken when other shields would get poked (which honestly is extremely rare.) I wish Cloud had a counter, if he had a counter instead of limit, half of my problems with this character would go away.

 

[100AngryTurtles]

Yoshi's shield has the exact same health as every other shield in the game, but ours cannot be poked. If you are getting shield broken consistently then you are holding shield too much. Besides lacking the ability to shield drop, Yoshi's shield is the best in the game.

 

[muddykips]

i don't really get why our shield would be "the best"; all it's got going for it is that people can't shield poke us, which rarely happens anyways. after that, you've got our inability to shield drop, and sorta crappy OoS options; our grab is slow and has basically no reward, our rolls are poop, and ftilt isn't anything worth writing home about. sure we've got nair OoS, but that's reliant on enemies overcommitting their butts right up into our faces.

anyways:

Cloud definitely has an advantage over Yoshi. Forces him to approach with limit charge, keeps him away with his giant sword, and is able to contest Yoshi's mobility once he gets limit charged (which is very often.)

i think this sums it up pretty nicely. his sword is hell to deal with, since it's got range, power, and speed; trying to get a hit in, let alone land after being swatted away, can be pretty damn hard for a character with situational-at-best disjoints (aka yoshi!!).

if bair could be shorthopped and had hitboxes that actually made sense, i feel like it'd solve a lot of these kinds of problems...

 

[100AngryTurtles]

I'm not really considering oos options, just the shield itself. Many players would give up shield dropping for the inability to be shield poked.

 

[Cat8752]

Power shielding is made harder by our shield size and it is true that in rare scenarios what would be a shield poke on a regular shield is a break for us. Not getting shield poked was a lot bigger in other games but in smash 4 shield depletion goes at a snail's pace and is practically a nonissue. There was something about Yoshi's shield in the previous two games that made it worse but I can't quite but my finger on it. . . Oh yeah it was made totally useless by no OoS options.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

My problem with eggs is when the opponents just aerial attacks through them and hits Yoshi in endlag. This is especially true with Cloud and other swordsmen. They eat eggs with their 360 degrees of coverage n-airs and f-airs and still have a hitbox to land on Yoshi. In some MU, eggs are only viable as full-hop, long range pressure tools, but unless you're threatening a time out, there's really no reason for someone to let themselves get hit by eggs.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

I also was not considering OoS options when I made that statement. I've also never had any trouble power-shielding with Yoshi, so I don't get that one.

Power shielding is made harder by our shield size and it is true that in rare scenarios what would be a shield poke on a regular shield is a break for us. Not getting shield poked was a lot bigger in other games but in smash 4 shield depletion goes at a snail's pace and is practically a nonissue. There was something about Yoshi's shield in the previous two games that made it worse but I can't quite but my finger on it. . . Oh yeah it was made totally useless by no OoS options.

Could you elaborate on how your shield's getting broken?

 

[muddykips]

what cat is saying is that, in smash 4, your shield has to be at like 5hp for it to be small enough to get poked. but since our shield doesn't decrease in size, we're technically running more of a risk; whereas other characters might get mercifully poked out of their shield when it's at low health, our shield will always take the full brunt of the attack, no matter how much hp it might have left in it.

i.e. i would much rather be poked than have my shield broken.

in regards to powershielding, is it really the same size as regular shield frames? i have noticed i tend to get powershields more often with other charaters, but i figured that's cause i try not to shield much with yoshi in the first place (though maybe that's a subconscious result of powershield being less reliable, lol.)

 

[100AngryTurtles]

Even if our Shield was bigger (which is not proven by the way), all you would have to do is adjust to the slightly bigger shield so that you can consistently power shield. I personally have no problems power shielding as Yoshi and neither do top players like The Wall or Raptor. It might just be a figment of your imagination because you can't manage to do it consistently.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

I would actually argue it's easier to avoid letting Yoshi's shield break because its "health" is displayed differently. Rather than trying to judge by size, you judge by how black the egg has become. If it's really dark, you should probably stop shielding.

 

[Cat8752]

I would actually argue it's easier to avoid letting Yoshi's shield break because its "health" is displayed differently. Rather than trying to judge by size, you judge by how black the egg has become. If it's really dark, you should probably stop shielding.

I am aware of how not to get Yoshi's shield broken I'm just stating there are scenarios where a poke on some characters' shield breaks ours. As for powershielding, a bubble appears around most characters as they shield. However, Yoshi retreats into is egg, making it somewhat harder to powershield.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

I am aware of how not to get Yoshi's shield broken I'm just stating there are scenarios where a poke on some characters' shield breaks ours. As for powershielding, a bubble appears around most characters as they shield. However, Yoshi retreats into is egg, making it somewhat harder to powershield.

I think both points are entirely subjective to the player. There isn't really a great way to quantify either.

I really haven't noticed a difference in timing for power shielding, but that may be subjective as well. Perhaps it's a moot point all around.

EDIT: Oh heck, nice job next post.

 

[muddykips]

Even if our Shield was bigger (which is not proven by the way), all you would have to do is adjust to the slightly bigger shield so that you can consistently power shield. I personally have no problems power shielding as Yoshi and neither do top players like The Wall or Raptor. It might just be a figment of your imagination because you can't manage to do it consistently.

no, i was theorycrafting that maybe yoshi has perfect shield boxes larger than his regular shield boxes to compensate and make it as easy to powershield as any other character. but since i'm p sure you just called me delusional / inept, and i take great pride in my Smash Knowledge, i went ahead and investigated for myself...

here's a link to the thing. i went ahead and made a thread for it, since it ended up being pretty long, and it's also completely unrelated to what this thread is supposed to be about >_o

 

[KenboCalrissian]

no, i was theorycrafting that maybe yoshi has perfect shield boxes larger than his regular shield boxes to compensate and make it as easy to powershield as any other character. but since i'm p sure you just called me delusional / inept, and i take great pride in my Smash Knowledge, i went ahead and investigated for myself...

here's a link to the thing. i went ahead and made a thread for it, since it ended up being pretty long, and it's also completely unrelated to what this thread is supposed to be about >_o

Nicely done! Looks like this isn't so subjective after all.