Guide Knitting a Yoshi Chart - MU Portal

[ReturningFall]

Definitely a loss. I was looking at Marth-Yoshi for a while. This one's got all the problems but Cloud has a far less stressful time killing off whatever than Marth does. I also suspect he's faster, has longer reach and doesn't suffer at projectiles like Marth does, does anyone have up-to-date frame data? I'm not sure how bad we lose it.

We gimp offstage, but I'm not sure how much that matters when the meta isn't really offstage heavy anymore. The Clouds will complain we get out of a lot of their less-reliable combos, but we do lose it.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Ah that reminds me, Bayo and Corn being the last patch with nerfs/buffs and characters means I'll get back to doing this thread for real once it's late Jan or whenever they're both released in Feb.

Among other threads I'm gonna fix up. Woo?

 

[Egg.]

Yeah, as good as patches were early on for fixing silly stuff, I'm kind of glad that they're going to stop happening so that the meta can start to stabilize and we can discuss characters without any fear of them gaining/losing any tools.

Also, about the Cloud matchup, it's notable that his Up+B doesn't snap to the ledge unless he has a full limit gauge. This means that if you can catch him off-stage without it, he's really vulnerable to a fair, fsmash, neutral b, egg, or whatever since he's pretty much forced to recover low. I haven't actually played the matchup yet, just something I was thinking about when I was messing around with him.

 

[Eureka]

I've been playing Cloud rather heavily these last few days, and there's something that I and some of the other Clouds have noticed. Yes Cloud does not snap to the ledge with his up b with the exception of before he even rises... On the way up. Cloud DOES snap to the ledge on the way down though, like Yoshi's down b. So as bizarre as it sounds it might be harder to edgegaurd Cloud if he goes high instead of going low. Although Yoshi is a bit different because he could probably just plop an egg under a falling Cloud.

 

[The Wall]

Well he can snap with the upward thrust by lining your feet up with the edge of the stage then using clim. Despite all that, I don't foresee cloud being a problem as long as you realize that his only combo tools are up air and down air. His nair/bair can combo at very certain percents but it's a rarity that he'll get them on you.

I can see this matchup being 55-45 in yoshi's favor. This needs to be explored more after some tournaments have happened. I'll be at our big weekly tomorrow so I'll get plenty of practice.

 

[Mr. Panda]

So, i'm having problem with fox, a particular one. I ve tried a lot of strategies but i feel like, i am every time under the pressure. His up tilts, dash attacks, bairs, grabs put yoshi, a floaty character, in bad situations. His full hops fast falls dair also are a problem, way to fast to an optimal punish. Someone here, who has experience in this MU can help me ? What is the optimal form to play this MU ?

 

[KenboCalrissian]

So, i'm having problem with fox, a particular one. I ve tried a lot of strategies but i feel like, i am every time under the pressure. His up tilts, dash attacks, bairs, grabs put yoshi, a floaty character, in bad situations. His full hops fast falls dair also are a problem, way to fast to an optimal punish. Someone here, who has experience in this MU can help me ? What is the optimal form to play this MU ?

There are two very good Foxes in our group including our #1 player, and I've taken a few games off each of them like this.

Don't camp; Be aggressive. Fox will depend on rushing you down, so you have to outrush him. Look for openings to grab, b-reverse egg lay... Nair is your friend, but be very careful coming in from above. Nair will trade with most of Fox's attacks, but he'll almost always hit harder - especially his Usmash. It will, however, interrupt a lot of his combos (but don't forget you have super-armor on your djump! That's often effective at getting you out of a combo where Nair isn't cutting it). Try not to jump into him with Nair as an approach, but if you knock him back, tech chase him and have a Nair ready for his getup. The more you can keep him off his feet, the better off you'll be.

Once you take the aggression, he'll probably start laser camping to bait out an aerial approach. This is where it gets tricky, because even our typically safe retreating-Fairs aren't that safe as Fox can often DACUS fast enough to punish that. This is where B-reverse egg-lays become your best asset, but remember to mix it up - if you do that every time, they'll just pivot Usmash or catch you with Utilt (it starts behind Fox), so occasionally land early and run in for a grab.

Remember that Fox is a fast-faller. Abuse this. This is where my favorite trick comes in handy, particularly if he's laser-locking; Grab him as close to ledge as possible and chew until release. If he stays grounded, jab-jab or dtilt him off stage. At high enough percent, he'll have to respond with Fox Fire to recover because you'll knock him low - if he's away from stage, he's a sitting duck for a Fair spike. If he gets close to stage, then stage-spike him with a Bair. If you land it early, he could dj into range to Illusion his way to ledge. A lot of times, they'll gravitate towards their max distance - you can either predict a punish at this position (Fair spike comes to mind again), or pre-empt a ledge trump.

Finally, ground pound if they get shieldy. Get some shield damage in there and go for the shield break. Remember though that this is a very punishable move, and Fox is great at getting into any gaps and dealing a lot of damage. Wait for the right moment - save it for when he's on the ropes and you notice his shield is weak.

 

[Mr. Panda]

There are two very good Foxes in our group including our #1 player, and I've taken a few games off each of them like this.

Don't camp; Be aggressive. Fox will depend on rushing you down, so you have to outrush him. Look for openings to grab, b-reverse egg lay... Nair is your friend, but be very careful coming in from above. Nair will trade with most of Fox's attacks, but he'll almost always hit harder - especially his Usmash. It will, however, interrupt a lot of his combos (but don't forget you have super-armor on your djump! That's often effective at getting you out of a combo where Nair isn't cutting it). Try not to jump into him with Nair as an approach, but if you knock him back, tech chase him and have a Nair ready for his getup. The more you can keep him off his feet, the better off you'll be.

Once you take the aggression, he'll probably start laser camping to bait out an aerial approach. This is where it gets tricky, because even our typically safe retreating-Fairs aren't that safe as Fox can often DACUS fast enough to punish that. This is where B-reverse egg-lays become your best asset, but remember to mix it up - if you do that every time, they'll just pivot Usmash or catch you with Utilt (it starts behind Fox), so occasionally land early and run in for a grab.

Remember that Fox is a fast-faller. Abuse this. This is where my favorite trick comes in handy, particularly if he's laser-locking; Grab him as close to ledge as possible and chew until release. If he stays grounded, jab-jab or dtilt him off stage. At high enough percent, he'll have to respond with Fox Fire to recover because you'll knock him low - if he's away from stage, he's a sitting duck for a Fair spike. If he gets close to stage, then stage-spike him with a Bair. If you land it early, he could dj into range to Illusion his way to ledge. A lot of times, they'll gravitate towards their max distance - you can either predict a punish at this position (Fair spike comes to mind again), or pre-empt a ledge trump.

Finally, ground pound if they get shieldy. Get some shield damage in there and go for the shield break. Remember though that this is a very punishable move, and Fox is great at getting into any gaps and dealing a lot of damage. Wait for the right moment - save it for when he's on the ropes and you notice his shield is weak.

Thanks! I'll try to be more aggressive. But , about the grab release, foxes can counter it mashing jab, come faster than anything yoshi can do, with exception of shield. (grounded situation ).

I heard of that up smash on the fox's shield pushes him away because of his light weight. this proceed ? If yes, this would be a great tool of pressure on fox. And is there something to cut fox's multi hits jab ? Only SDI works ?

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Thanks! I'll try to be more aggressive. But , about the grab release, foxes can counter it mashing jab, come faster than anything yoshi can do, with exception of shield. (grounded situation ).

I heard of that up smash on the fox's shield pushes him away because of his light weight. this proceed ? If yes, this would be a great tool of pressure on fox. And is there something to cut fox's multi hits jab ? Only SDI works ?

Oh, thanks for the tip on grab release! My local Foxes haven't caught onto this yet... I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

I'm going to defer to somebody else on the Usmash bit... personally, I feel like I've been punished hard for this because Usmash's endlag is so long, and Fox is fast enough that it doesn't even matter that you've pushed him back - he can still get in and dash attack or grab. However, I could just as easily see a jab follow-up blocking his reaction... This seems to be an area of the MU I haven't mastered yet.

When in jab combo, SDI up and towards Fox while mashing Jump. You should be able to escape with an armored dj eventually - if not, you stand a chance of missing his hitbox on the final hit if going that direction.

 

[Mr. Panda]

Oh, thanks for the tip on grab release! My local Foxes haven't caught onto this yet... I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

I'm going to defer to somebody else on the Usmash bit... personally, I feel like I've been punished hard for this because Usmash's endlag is so long, and Fox is fast enough that it doesn't even matter that you've pushed him back - he can still get in and dash attack or grab. However, I could just as easily see a jab follow-up blocking his reaction... This seems to be an area of the MU I haven't mastered yet.

When in jab combo, SDI up and towards Fox while mashing Jump. You should be able to escape with an armored dj eventually - if not, you stand a chance of missing his hitbox on the final hit if going that direction.

I see... well, in my mind, when fox is close to the ledge, the upsmash would be a great tool to stage control, if the shield surfers push back. I'm not certainly of that. Other thing to confirm is if the angled Fsmash close to the ledge can caught fox's illusion, is something to test...

 

[Newtonjar]

What should I be doing against falco? I was playing my friend who is almost completely even but for some reason I lost around 14 times in a row before winning. I just don't know what I was doing wrong. So I just want some help in this matchup.

 

[The Wall]

Oh, thanks for the tip on grab release! My local Foxes haven't caught onto this yet... I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

I'm going to defer to somebody else on the Usmash bit... personally, I feel like I've been punished hard for this because Usmash's endlag is so long, and Fox is fast enough that it doesn't even matter that you've pushed him back - he can still get in and dash attack or grab. However, I could just as easily see a jab follow-up blocking his reaction... This seems to be an area of the MU I haven't mastered yet.

When in jab combo, SDI up and towards Fox while mashing Jump. You should be able to escape with an armored dj eventually - if not, you stand a chance of missing his hitbox on the final hit if going that direction.

There are times when landing a smash attack on shield can be safe and it's pretty rare, mostly when they're not expecting it. Recently I've been using a lot of reverse down smash to catch people shielding then rolling from the edge of the stage to get behind me, works like a charm. Up smash on shield can work if there's room to push him AND he doesn't realize that it put him out of grab/jab range. If they do realize it, they can just run and jump cancel an up smash if you're at kill % or short hop nairplane and continue a combo.

The big thing with fox is his nairplanes and up tilt. If he catches you with up tilt when you were on the ground from 0-15, you can POSSIBLY nair him. I say possibly because I swear Megafox has perfect shielded me trying it a few times but I have done it to other Fox players, so it might just be the caliber of player min-maxing the frames. If he is doing up tilt strings and you try to nair, I would suggest using the nair on his shield and floating away at the same time, the shield stun from absorbing the hit allows you to hit the ground and either throw out a jab to stop his approach or shield if he tries to jab you and then you can punish.

As with pretty much any character, landing with a nair on shield is always a bad option. If he's on top of you, a safe option is always a full hop rising nair to either catch them dropping shield or get yourself out of the situation safely. Your main goal in this matchup should be to get fox off stage in a lateral fashion. If you're quick about it, a nice jab into down tilt at the ledge is great, and then just run off nair in anticipation of the side B. Run off nair will ALWAYS take priority over it and knock him back away. At higher % (130+ or so) it'll lead to death, whereas at lower percents it will lead into another recovery 50/50. If he tries to side b above the stage, back up and up smash him. If they try to go to the ledge again, run off nair again, rinse/repeat.

Smash Fight Club 26 <-- my Loser's Finals match from this past Sunday vs AvoiD. He's probably our #2 Fox player in Houston, also an Ike/Captain Falcon player. Ignore game 2 with his Ike, that was just disgusting but yeah, use the fox games to study what worked. I understand he was a little too aggressive towards me but that's just how it goes sometimes.

 

[GSM_Dren]

So I just came back from a trip and I played against Cloud for the first time.. I lost the set pretty badly. Halp

 

[The Wall]

So I just came back from a trip and I played against Cloud for the first time.. I lost the set pretty badly. Halp

Cloud has a lot of amazing tools and swordfighters as we all know give Yoshi some trouble due to the huge disjoints.

Basic No-No's vs Cloud:

Do not float down to him from above expecting to trade anything. He will up air you. Up air hurts.

Do not use your up b's off stage, grab the ledge, then release and try to jump -> anything. If you grab the ledge after using all your Up b's (and this holds true vs any character really) use one of the following 3 options: Neutral, Roll, Attack. This will ensure your feet touch the stage and you get a reset on up B so you won't be gimped if they happen to read your option.

Don't let him just sit there and charge limit. Throw an egg from across the stage if necessary just to make him shield.

Don't try to punish his Cross slash (side B) if it's the limit break version. It has virtually no end lag and you will end up eating a free attack.


Do's vs Cloud:

Go off stage and attempt gimps on his poor recovery. (Be safe with this. If you're behind a stock trying to finish him off at high % and he catches you with up b he CAN and probably WILL spike you. There is no return from this).

Shield A LOT. Cloud's grabs are lackluster anywhere above 30%. He can't combo a single thing above that if you're smart. He's kinda like Fox and will never kill you with a throw unless you're at a high enough % where a LOT of other things kill.

He's gonna look for falling up airs and up tilts at low percent. Full hop down air auto cancels but can be avoided or really just shielded and then instantly jab before he lands. Nair is exceptional at gimping if you're at 90+% and off stage so watch for that.

 

[Mr. Panda]

This is a best of three in a locals, here. I consider my friend a good fox, not the better, but good. Any observations? hints? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKlEaSTmfmA

 

[Sinister Slush]

http://smashboards.com/threads/yoshi-theater-video-thread.362480/page-16

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The Rosalina sub-forum is analyzing Yoshi again this week. Here's the link to the page if you have anything to contribute.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404697/

 

[CyanDucky]

Cloud has a lot of amazing tools and swordfighters as we all know give Yoshi some trouble due to the huge disjoints.

Basic No-No's vs Cloud:

Do not float down to him from above expecting to trade anything. He will up air you. Up air hurts.

Do not use your up b's off stage, grab the ledge, then release and try to jump -> anything. If you grab the ledge after using all your Up b's (and this holds true vs any character really) use one of the following 3 options: Neutral, Roll, Attack. This will ensure your feet touch the stage and you get a reset on up B so you won't be gimped if they happen to read your option.

Don't let him just sit there and charge limit. Throw an egg from across the stage if necessary just to make him shield.

Don't try to punish his Cross slash (side B) if it's the limit break version. It has virtually no end lag and you will end up eating a free attack.


Do's vs Cloud:

Go off stage and attempt gimps on his poor recovery. (Be safe with this. If you're behind a stock trying to finish him off at high % and he catches you with up b he CAN and probably WILL spike you. There is no return from this).

Shield A LOT. Cloud's grabs are lackluster anywhere above 30%. He can't combo a single thing above that if you're smart. He's kinda like Fox and will never kill you with a throw unless you're at a high enough % where a LOT of other things kill.

He's gonna look for falling up airs and up tilts at low percent. Full hop down air auto cancels but can be avoided or really just shielded and then instantly jab before he lands. Nair is exceptional at gimping if you're at 90+% and off stage so watch for that.

A neat trick I found to combat his down throw in the early percents is to immediately double jump towards him to eat the side b/f tilt and drop down with a Yoshi Bomb. From there on you can probably bait out an airdodge with egg throw at best or force him to jump away.

 

[Squerk]

I've found that with Cloud, it's extremely difficult to land and he does not get combo'd very easily. Playing patiently and forcing him to approach you/hit your shield is the most effective way to beat him. Personally, I'd say Cloud wins the matchup although it isn't decisive at all. -1 Yoshi/Cloud +1 I'd say at worst.

 

[the melon!!!!!]

Can anybody give some advice on the Mario matchup? I've noticed some spacing things I'm doing wrong and getting bopped for, but I also feel like I'm missing some key things you guys might be able to help with. Here's a recent match I did as reference (watch out on the audio, this guy needs to work on his sound quality): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZs9vOEQVAI

 

[Squerk]

You're being too unsafe on shield. You would throw and egg and then land with a nair or uair right in front of his shield allowing him to grab you. That's where Mario starts most of his setups.

 

[the melon!!!!!]

I noticed that too, I'm working on that now. Anything else I'm missing?

 

[Squerk]

You spam nair a lot when he's comboing you which isn't exactly ideal. Find the openings in his combos then nair rather than mashing it.

 

[the melon!!!!!]

Makes sense, I guess I was panicking, I'll definitely pay more attention to that too, thanks!

 

[WalrusBiscuit]

Hows the Diddy matchup? I see some say its yoshis second worst mu.

 

[The Wall]

Hows the Diddy matchup? I see some say its yoshis second worst mu.

I'd put it as the worst matchup we have honestly. Ever since the up air shenanigans got taken away, a lot of Diddy's now play how they should. Very safe, campy with banana in hand, and spamming fair when they don't which is nigh impossible to challenge or punish.

Requires extremely good egg spacing, a good item game in case the banana gets thrown at you at an impromptu time, and the ability to recognize when the Diddy is using the banana as a trap rather than just a camp projectile.

 

[WalrusBiscuit]

I'd put it as the worst matchup we have honestly. Ever since the up air shenanigans got taken away, a lot of Diddy's now play how they should. Very safe, campy with banana in hand, and spamming fair when they don't which is nigh impossible to challenge or punish.

Requires extremely good egg spacing, a good item game in case the banana gets thrown at you at an impromptu time, and the ability to recognize when the Diddy is using the banana as a trap rather than just a camp projectile.

What is yoshis best matchup would you say?

 

[The Wall]

What is yoshis best matchup would you say?

That's heavily opinionated at this point. My favorite is Captain Falcon. Hell I money matched Fatality at G3 and 3-0'd him with 2 2 stocks. It seriously is that easy of a matchup for me. Others might say some other matchups are easy. I could name some heavies for example that are just combo fodder like DK, Bowser, DDD, etc. Jiggs gets some hate too for just being forced into the air and not being able to win vs Yoshi in that area.

 

[Lukingordex]

Do you have any videos of your sets against Falcons?

 

[The Wall]

Do you have any videos of your sets against Falcons?

One where I lose to Grimturtle's Fox after 2-0'ing his Falcon, another where I beat his Falcon game one then his Fox game 2... uhhh.... I think most of it is Grimturtle honestly. He's the only Captain Falcon in our region that can get close to me in bracket.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I just wonder, who actually is a good matchup for Yoshi? I am asking because the OP didn't really answer my question (or I just didn't see).

Edit: Just let me clarify, I mean who would be a good character to use against Yoshi.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

I just wonder, who actually is a good matchup for Yoshi? I am asking because the OP didn't really answer my question (or I just didn't see).

Well, Yoshi's an all-rounder, so he doesn't have any hard counters (for or against) that really stand out. I know I personally like using him against Jigglypuff (better air mobility trumps her air shenanigans), Metaknight, Ganondorf, and Ryu (similar reason; our air mobility screws up many of their combos). He's not a bad pick against Mario either since he can DJ out of utilt strings, though Fireball spam can be a pain to deal with.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Well, Yoshi's an all-rounder, so he doesn't have any hard counters (for or against) that really stand out. I know I personally like using him against Jigglypuff (better air mobility trumps her air shenanigans), Metaknight, Ganondorf, and Ryu (similar reason; our air mobility screws up many of their combos). He's not a bad pick against Mario either since he can DJ out of utilt strings, though Fireball spam can be a pain to deal with.

Ahh, I see...

But I don't think I clarified myself good enough. Which characters (if any) give Yoshi trouble? Who is good against Yoshi?

 

[AirJordans]

Ahh, I see...

But I don't think I clarified myself good enough. Which characters (if any) give Yoshi trouble? Who is good against Yoshi?

Swordsmen, especially Ike, Cloud, and Meta Knight; as well as Diddy Kong.

 

[Deleted member]

Swordsmen, especially Ike, Cloud, and Meta Knight; as well as Diddy Kong.

Can back this up. MK is probably the least volatile out of all four but they all can beat him pretty solidly.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Swordsmen, especially Ike, Cloud, and Meta Knight; as well as Diddy Kong.

How's Roy vs Yoshi considered? What about Marth vs Yoshi?

 

[WalrusBiscuit]

How's Roy vs Yoshi considered? What about Marth vs Yoshi?

Im pretty sure Yoshi wins against Marth. Against Roy I dont really know. I always beat the Roy player at my local scene. But I think I saw in a video made by ZeRo that he thinks Roy wins the MU (which i disagree with).

1. Yoshi has better ariel mobility
2. I dont think Roy has any good way of edgeguarding Yoshi

But this is just my opinion

 

[Deleted member]

Im pretty sure Yoshi wins against Marth. Against Roy I dont really know. I always beat the Roy player at my local scene. But I think I saw in a video made by ZeRo that he thinks Roy wins the MU (which i disagree with).

1. Yoshi has better ariel mobility
2. I dont think Roy has any good way of edgeguarding Yoshi

But this is just my opinion

Was the video made around the time Roy came out? Because he was pretty much the big reason why most of the Roy hype existed early on once he said he thought he was the best swordfighter in the game.

I've had no trouble with Roy as Yoshi, but I don't know the MU specifics.

 

[WalrusBiscuit]

Was the video made around the time Roy came out? Because he was pretty much the big reason why most of the Roy hype existed early on once he said he thought he was the best swordfighter in the game.

I've had no trouble with Roy as Yoshi, but I don't know the MU specifics.

I believe it was yeah. Now hes not as good as people thought he would be.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Cloud and Link/Tink give me trouble (surprise surprise, more swords).
ZSS is a bad time, but not unbeatable.
Pikachu wrecks us.
Duck Hunt is a sleeper counter - nobody plays him, but beware if you come across it.
Likewise with Mii Gunner - you're not getting past that wall, but thankfully you'll probably never see it either.

A lot of people here say Rosa and Sheik are bad MUs too, though I strongly disagree with the Rosa assessment (but there are no less than 3 in our scene and I'm very well versed in that MU as a result, so I have bias) and I want to say Sheik's closer to 45/55 than others here will tell you (but we only have one dedicated Sheik main and he's around my skill level, if not slightly better. I can beat him consistently, but that's partially because he's not familiar with the MU. So, again, I'm recognizing my own bias here)

Lastly, I have more trouble with Lucas/Ness than most everybody else here. I recently got bodied by a Sonic as well, but he's PR #2 in our play group so it wasn't a fair fight to begin with