Guide Knitting a Yoshi Chart - MU Portal

[The_Devious]

How's the Mario matchup?

 

[100AngryTurtles]

In my experience the Mario Matchup is a straight 50-50

 

[The_Devious]

What in mario's move set do we have to look out for?

 

[KenboCalrissian]

What in mario's move set do we have to look out for?

In a nutshell, we have a better ground game (aside from Smashes) and a better aerial, but Mario can cover those weaknesses with camping. If we play aggressive and he plays bait 'n punish, Mario wins, but we can even it out by playing patiently ourselves.

The biggest thing to watch out for is his USmash. As Yoshi, we're often tempted to come down from above since we excel in the air, but Mario's USmash has a wide arc, giving it tremendous anti-air potential. It kills us pretty early. Couple this with Fireball camp/spam, and you'll be extra-tempted to come in from above, but try to resist.

Another problem is FSmash. Mario's FSmash is interesting because during his animation, he takes a step back to charge, steps back further during release, and then moves forward more than he moved back to finish. In doing so, Mario actually moves his hurtboxes out of harm's way, so he can effectively dodge and punish in one fell swoop. We do this too, but to a lesser degree - and in the case of the Mario v Yoshi matchup, this can absolutely murder our FAir or retreating FAir. He'll also use this (or DTilt) to punish rolls.

When recovering offstage, try to come in high. Cape and FLUDD can gimp us very easily, and if we're close to the wall he can run-off BAir us for a stage spike. We're much safer recovering above, so long as you don't try to land on him with a counter. Again, watch out for his USmash. Just recover to neutral.

One of our biggest strengths against Mario is that we can DJA out of utilt strings after the first hit. Just jump, don't air dodge. Our weight also gives us an advantage over his killthrow. Lastly, our eggs are very useful in neutral - if he camps with fireballs, return fire with eggs. Even if he Capes them, he's not likely to hit us with them because of their angle. Eventually, he'll try and come in, and that's when you can respond. Our tilts work well in this MU, and you can punish his Dash attack with OOS Ground Pound.

 

[RebelXII]

Hello, I have a strange MU question. Can I receive some help with the Bowser MU? I can never find a good safe option nor a good opening with the eggs due to power shield, or its hard to approach his landing due to his forward. An asap response or just any form of help is much appreciated.

 

[Pixel_]

I don't remember fighting many good Bowsers, so take this with a grain of salt.
Always be wary of the OoS Up B and space accordingly. If you can't find an approach (I'm assuming you've already tried retreating Fairs), try Egg Toss setups like Up B > Neutral B if he shields it. If you can't approach his landing, use more egg setups. Use eggs to any aerial, and if he lands, use either Fair or grab to get him in the air again. I hear one of his weaknesses is his bad landing options, so you'll have to apply a lot of pressure whenever he's trying to land.
Pressure in general should be very good against Bowser due to his lack of quick moves. Also learn his jab setups and try to avoid them, and never shield his Down B.
Like I said, I don't know much about good Bowsers, but since nobody replied in almost an hour, this is all I've got.

 

[DJlive]

Hello, I have a strange MU question. Can I receive some help with the Bowser MU? I can never find a good safe option nor a good opening with the eggs due to power shield, or its hard to approach his landing due to his forward. An asap response or just any form of help is much appreciated.

If they keep perfect shielding, follow-up depending on their habits. You can et to el, ff Nair, ff fair or ff Jab.

You can also do retreating fairs if they tend to shield grab.

Try not to shield as much since Bowser can break shields using aerial downb.

My strategy is sometimes to just use eggs to force an approach then utilt/ftilt/jab to confirm to combos.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

I struggle against Bowser too, so this helps. Usually, I seem to dominate up until around 75%, and then when I can't combo anymore and he has rage, I'm dead as soon as I make a mistake.

Remember to jump out of uthrow, not air dodge. His uair kills very early now that he has a hoo-hah. Also, remember that his Up+B has a long duration, and you can punish it provided you shield the whole thing. Most of my kills on Bowser come from Down+B... which is scary, because that's the last thing you should be throwing out willy-nilly against him. His punishes are deadly.

What are better kill options against Bowser? Uair is very risky because of his Dair or Down+B, and I seem to get punished a lot going for Fair offstage (Bowser's Fair is much faster and can usually react out of air dodge)

Spoiler

Honestly, I've resorted to using R.O.B. in this matchup. Yoshi's too risky here

 

[100AngryTurtles]

I'm not sure if you guys just haven't mentioned it or haven't faced a good Bowser, but his aerial side-b is probably his biggest strength. It comes out frame 17 in the air and can kill us at around 90 on Battlefield/Dreamland with rage. Don't shield on platforms if Bowser knows how to effectively use his side-b. Try to bait it out with a spot dodge and then punish if possible.

As far as approach goes... I still haven't figured that out. I have had the most success with just running away and throwing eggs, forcing Bowser to approach. He usually just power shields the eggs and keeps going, so I have to mix it up with Egg Lay/Grab after the eggs. Landing versus Bowser is also tough due to his intangible tilts and range. Try to strike to stages with more room such as Smashville or DuckHunt. FD is an option, but having no platforms makes it even harder to land.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

How could I forget Side+B... *shiver*

Oh yeah, and Dtilt kills stupid early if you get hit with the sweet spot. Running in is simply not an option against him.

Adding to stage bans, stay off of Lylat at all costs. Normally this isn't a bad stage for Yoshi, but it happens to be one of Bowser's best stages, if not the best. I'm told Bowsers love Battlefield as well, and that's already a tough one for us because the platforms provide shelter from eggs. Dreamland 64 can work, but it has a low ceiling so Side+B will kill early.

That basically leaves us with T&C... which is also a great stage for Bowser. We like it too, but I still feel like Bowser has the advantage here. If your venue allows Umbra (few do, ours is keeping it around for another season) that's honestly the only stage I can think of that gives us an even matchup.

100AngryTurtles , I actually do like Smashville against Bowser, if only because we have so few other options against him. Anything in particular we should be wary of there, or any reasons why FD is the better choice? At the end of the day, it feels like Bowser's going to have the stage advantage against us no matter where we go, so we might as well figure out our best options and what to watch out for.

 

[100AngryTurtles]

How could I forget Side+B... *shiver*

Oh yeah, and Dtilt kills stupid early if you get hit with the sweet spot. Running in is simply not an option against him.

Adding to stage bans, stay off of Lylat at all costs. Normally this isn't a bad stage for Yoshi, but it happens to be one of Bowser's best stages, if not the best. I'm told Bowsers love Battlefield as well, and that's already a tough one for us because the platforms provide shelter from eggs. Dreamland 64 can work, but it has a low ceiling so Side+B will kill early.

That basically leaves us with T&C... which is also a great stage for Bowser. We like it too, but I still feel like Bowser has the advantage here. If your venue allows Umbra (few do, ours is keeping it around for another season) that's honestly the only stage I can think of that gives us an even matchup.

100AngryTurtles , I actually do like Smashville against Bowser, if only because we have so few other options against him. Anything in particular we should be wary of there, or any reasons why FD is the better choice? At the end of the day, it feels like Bowser's going to have the stage advantage against us no matter where we go, so we might as well figure out our best options and what to watch out for.

I was trying to imply that smashville/duckhunt were better for us. I think fd hurts us because we have trouble landing. I think smashville is our best bet.

 

[DJlive]

I've learned that against Bowser, perfect spot dodge is your friend. But if you go aggressive against him, make sure to space things just right. For kills, perfect shield down b is an option. I tend to do more Jab smash against him. Oh and spike set-ups. It shouldn't be hard if you space well.

And if landing is a problem, I suggest practicing double jump ledge down b. Then you can play offstage.

Oh and when in doubt utilt. So useful.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

I was trying to imply that smashville/duckhunt were better for us. I think fd hurts us because we have trouble landing. I think smashville is our best bet.

I've had Bowsers counter me to Duck Hunt because it has similar problems to FD, plus really close blast zones on the side so they can get away with some really stupid kills on punish. Granted, the high ceiling helps us survive the hoo-hah, but it's not a trade I like making.

The more we talk about this, the more I'm wondering... should the Yoshi/Bowser MU be re-evaluated? Has it been reviewed since 1.1.5? Scratch that, just checked and saw everything's nulled out for now.

 

[100AngryTurtles]

I find that we can just di up and away while spamming jump to avoid the hoo hah at most percents. I believe it is still true for very certain percents (60-80 area, not sure where exactly).

 

[Fuerzo]

Anyone else starting to have trouble with Mewtwo now? I dismissed him early on as a very easy matchup, but as the character's developed his speed, range, projectile, and combo options have been shown to more than make up for his size and weight.

 

[Nikes]

You aren't alone, I think it's a hard matchup for us as well. :/

Any advice against Rosalina or a patient Fox btw?
I can take care of luma easily enough but I still have a hard time against her.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Rosie's tricky to challenge in the air because she has a lot of moves that don't trade. This is a MU where we're going to be camping a lot - she can shield eggs, but Luma can't. Dash attack can work since we hit Luma and then go past, but if spaced improperly or overused, it can be read and punished. She'll go for a lot of grab punishes, but our grab-release works well on her too. Remember that pummeling can deal damage to Luma too, so get in as much free damage on it as you can.

Once it's gone, go for Nair or grabs. Definitely don't come from directly above, her Uair trumps everything. Get her from the sides with Nair if possible. We can B-reverse egg-lay too if she's rolling away - it's hard to land with Luma out, so try and wait until it's gone. Look for opportunities to use Ground Pound, or get her off-stage. She's vulnerable while recovering, so use Nair to push her farther out or Bair to stage spike. Afterwards, get to ledge, refresh your jump, and go out again - even if she misses the tech, she can still recover from the very bottom, so keep pressuring her until the stock's out. Fair can work but probably won't hit a smart player without a hard read. A Uair from down under can work too if you like being sneaky.

 

[Pixel_]

Just fought a really good Duck Hunt, so here's some notes:

• Respect the Can, all the way
• Respect the frisbee too, note that it won't let you run straight in because it's a frisbee
• Don't fall for the grab setups. Duck Hunt likes to force the opponent into shield so that he can grab you. He mainly does this with Down B and the Can
• Try to find out as many habits as you can with Down B as possible; you can dash attack him if you're fast enough
• Watch for any rolling habits
• Learn the gunmen; main thing to watch out for is that the one with the brown coat shoots really fast
• Duck Hunt really likes to throw you towards the Can, then hitting you with the Can
• Main kill moves are: smash attacks, Can, Uair. The one I fought mainly used cans, but he threw out a bunch of smash attacks too
• Please don't get hit by the Can snipes, they really hurt
• Generally Duck Hunt controls the match, but if there's nothing on the field (gunmen, can, frisbee), rush him down all the way. Yoshi rushes down pretty well in this matchup (fastest aerial is frame 6, other than Can, which I'm not sure about), but you'll have to weave through and dodge the projectiles otherwise (respect the projectiles! except for the gunmen in some cases)

After the match, I rechecked Kurogane Hammer's tier list, and Duck Hunt was placed as Mid Tier. He's something to take seriously if the player's really good.

 

[DJlive]

Can can be reversed by egg. Clay duck can be broken by egg. Gunmen can be knocked down by egg. We beat out all Duck Hunt options.

Yeah smart rushdown is the best strategy here. But more than anything, do respect the projectiles.

 

[Pixel_]

omg I forgot about eggs
I'm pretty sure I fought him in Battlefield/Dreamland so eggs weren't very spammable, but the best way to get in is either good dash attacks through the gunmen (please be careful when you do this) or with egg setups (e.g. egg > Fair or egg > egg lay). Obviously backing down after throwing an egg is always an option if you want to be safe.

 

[Fuerzo]

I think we beat Duck Hunt fairly handily with a combination of effective rushdown and heavy egg usage. Also remember that he has among the easiest recoveries in the game to exploit.

 

[Djmarcus44]

(Click Image Above)​

This will be our Matchup index thread that links to discussions from either our boards or other character boards.

Spoiler: Completed(ish) Discussions/MU Table

For now, the table will show mostly blanks, the last patch (possibly) has happened and the addition of changes/DLC characters has come to an end. So it's time get to the slow process of doing our MU chart.
Scratch that, new patch happened... The End isn't near.

Left side Ratios will be Yoshi, right will be the enemies.
If there's only one ratio, that means the character boards reached their own conclusion for the MU without the help of the Yoshi boards or vice versa.

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Spoiler: Characters we or other Character Boards are discussing

Some of these haven't had posts in months, will revive once we start discussion for them.

Threads with current discussion
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Threads made by us


http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-discussion-bayonetta.430080/


http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-discussion-bowser.374417/


http://smashboards.com/threads/yoshi-mu-issues-bowser-jr.380803/


http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-discussion-cloud.429168/


http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-discussion-corrin.430414/


http://smashboards.com/threads/match-up-discussion-diddy-kong.391471/


http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-discussion-duck-hunt-duo.374419/


http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-vs-fox.385308/


http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-discussion-greninja.413828/


http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-discussion-ike.415532/


http://smashboards.com/threads/match-up-vs-little-mac.376847/


http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-discussion-link-aka-how-the-hero-of-time-slayed-the-dragon.399380/


http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-luigi.402846/

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http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-thread-vs-lucina-maybe-marth.374474/


http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-yoshi-vs-mega-man.374468/


http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-help-meta-knight.398139/


http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-discussion-mewtwo.399281/


http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-discussion-ness.404741/


http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-pikachu.412414/

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http://smashboards.com/threads/pit-and-dark-pit-matchup.413500/


http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-discussion-sheik.374421/


http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-discussion-sonic.396456/


http://smashboards.com/threads/toon-link-match-up.389069


http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-discussion-villager.413893/

Spoiler: Enemy MU Threads

Click on heads to be directed to their threads




Discussion about Yoshi on Page 6










No Matchup Thread


Discussion about Yoshi starts on page 11














Discussion about Yoshi on Page 3


Discussions about Yoshi on Pages 5 and 6


























Discussion about Yoshi on Page 3


Discussions about Yoshi on Pages 2-5






No MU thread


No MU thread










Discussions about Yoshi on Pages 2, 4, 8, and 9






Same as Dark Pit






Discussions about Yoshi on Pages 1-3






Discussion about Yoshi on Page 1










Discussions about Yoshi on Pages 4 and 6

Pitch ideas on what you guys wanna talk about next. It's gonna be hell if you guys don't wanna like the Brawl days.

Gunner actually has a matchup thread. It is called "Gunner MU thread". If any Yoshi players want to discuss Yoshi's matchup with Mii Gunner, you guys are more than welcome to post on our thread.

 

[Mythzotick]

Hey guys! What do you think of the mu during this age? Since I've been on both sides of the mu, I can say from my own experience that I think this mu is evenish and can be a mu that requires a lot of patience from both characters.

If I'm playing as , I find eggs annoying and if I'm playing as , I find lemons extremely obnoxious.

 

[Pixel_]

Do you guys have any tips for Samus? I played it today and it seems pretty terrible since it's really hard to break down her defense. Should I just get a secondary or is there good counterplay to this?

If I'm playing as , I find eggs annoying and if I'm playing as , I find lemons extremely obnoxious.

The only time I remember playing the Mega Man matchup it was pretty bad, for similar reasons to the Samus matchup. Yoshi has to get in to do real damage, and Mega Man can play keep-out really well. Obviously he has to get in close for some things, but it doesn't seem to be much of a problem because he can just force Yoshi to approach.

Actually, should I get a secondary that doesn't need to approach for the whole match, or has extremely safe approaches? I've been thinking about maining Toon Link for a while, and he seems to fit both of those descriptions.

 

[DJlive]

Fighting Samus is so much easier than MM. You can honestly just jump (you can also shad) over the wall of projectiles, egg while they're throwing their stuff then confirm into any aerial. Samus antiairs are also not that good. And if they start shielding, egg lay. And if they catch on again, delay any fair or egg lay while they charge their smash attack.

For MM, you have to realize that their lemons are bluffs. You can nair out of them then fair once they pull their antiair. You can catch their blade using shads. Just don't be directly above him. You can mix it up with eggs too. Thing is all MM's projectiles are linear. Just avoid and punish with eggs.

Alternatively for both, you can do shield approaches. You can mix it up with dance trotting, uturns, foxtrots and perfect pivots to keep your enemy confused. Then go down town with punishes. Just know that patience and timing is the key for these matchups. Lose either of that and you'll lose.

For the MM wanting to beat Yoshi, your best tools are lemons to make Yoshis more aggressive. Blades to block aerial approaches. Uairs to punish them from overextending. And bairs and up smash for spacing and antiair. You'd want Yoshi to be frustrated enough to make them approach recklessly.

 

[Scootch]

Does anyone have any experience in the Robin MU? I got beat in my local tournament against one and really need help for the next time we fight.

 

[DJlive]

Does anyone have any experience in the Robin MU? I got beat in my local tournament against one and really need help for the next time we fight.

If you have a problem with zoners like above, you have to remember they're bluffs. They're forcing you to approach.

Best way is to walk perfect shield or run pp shield towards your opponent. Once you've closed the gap, if the zoner throws out a projectile, it should be an easy punish with jab or utilt.

You can alternatively jump egg their projectiles to force them stop spamming and turn the tide to make them approach you. If they just shield, space a land grab or an egg lay. Just know that if they catch on, they'll start doing fair, bair or usmash on you.

 

[Mythzotick]

What makes Mega Man really difficult to approach compared to most zoners is not only can he shoot 3 lemons at a fast rate, but he can retreat by jumping backwards as his nair has no landing lag and a lot of his projectiles can compliment each other. For example...You throw metal blade down to the ground, pick it up, and it immediately makes his crash bomber and leaf shield more of pain to deal with because he can now frame trap you by using either as a bait option and then can throw/z-drop his metal blade. It doesn't exactly help that Yoshi has an awful grab either.

It's also worth noting that whenever Mega Man inputs a move that is a projectile in the air, he can keep his momentum going or retreat back compared to someone like Link or Samus who are stuck in the air whenever they input a projectile move so it's hard to punish him when he can be so slippery. In a way, he is similar to Wario whenever he is in the air.

When you're above Mega Man as Yoshi, be careful when using his double jump as Mega Man's uair (air shooter) has a windbox similar to Mr. G&W's uair but better. This will hardly ever happen though since Yoshi jumps so high up and and goes so far that you might even forget about it, still though, be cautious. Even if you use Yoshi bomb (down-b) when above Mega Man, his uair will still beat it so it's not recommended and should only be used when the Mega Man player will least expect it.

Fortunately though, Mega Man is combo food once he gets hit since he is heavy and a fast faller. Take full advantage of it whenever it happens since Mega Man can easily get back to a neutral state unless he is offstage.

 

[Pixel_]

Tips for the Mewtwo matchup? Staying outside of his range and approaching carefully seems to work, but I'd like more tips.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Tips for the Mewtwo matchup? Staying outside of his range and approaching carefully seems to work, but I'd like more tips.

I'm failing this one too (I'm actually learning Mewtwo in response because the guy who beats my Yoshi doesn't like the ditto), but here's what I've learned...

He's probably going to stand back and charge Shadow Ball until we approach, then punish. We can interrupt him with Eggs, but a smart Mewtwo will simply PShield the egg and resume charging. Shad Fair isn't a great option because M2's Fair will clank with it, but he's more likely to beat us to it because his comes out much, much faster.

This leaves us with B-reverse Egg Lays and dash-grabs/dash-attacks, all of which are decent options at worst. You can also empty short-hop forward but feint back mid-way, or toss and egg with a feint approach, to see how he reacts. If he rolls in, you might be able to punish with Nair or Utilt. If he goes for a grab, you can Dtilt or Ftilt (Utilt's usually a bit too slow for this). If he rolls away, make note of that and go for a delayed dash attack or dash grab later for the read.

I feel as though M2 has the advantage over us in this MU, but it could be that I simply don't have the right answer to beat him yet, despite having ideas on how to approach.

 

[Delta-cod]

I have some thoughts about the Mewtwo match up, but I'd need some help from you guys to put them together.

What are the goto options for Mewtwo out of Shadowball Charge? Depending on what they are, we may not need to actually commit to approach in order to make him stop charging. Just get close enough to scare him, and then he has to try to fight us. And all this without needing to have actually done anything punishable (i.e. walking up to him).

Outside of the approach, I don't see any reason we should be worried about Mewtwo.

 

[Pixel_]

I have some thoughts about the Mewtwo match up, but I'd need some help from you guys to put them together.

What are the goto options for Mewtwo out of Shadowball Charge? Depending on what they are, we may not need to actually commit to approach in order to make him stop charging. Just get close enough to scare him, and then he has to try to fight us. And all this without needing to have actually done anything punishable (i.e. walking up to him).

Outside of the approach, I don't see any reason we should be worried about Mewtwo.

Whether or not it's rational, the main thing I'm scared of when Mewtwo is charging Shadowball is Shadowball itself. If I accidentally fall too much after throwing an egg or end up too unsafe on shield, then I get hit by Shadowball. Fully charged, its damage is huge (or at least it seems to be), its knockback is ridiculous at higher percents, and he can sometimes followup afterwards because of the hitstun. Other than that, he can Nair/Fair out of Shadowball charge, both of which can combo, Fair being able to kill at higher percents. I don't remember if these were necessarily the go-to options, but that's what I was afraid of during the match.

As for other things, Mewtwo's range reaches on forever and I (at least personally) don't do very well against characters with good range due to Yoshi's own mediocre range (not including Dtilt, but Mewtwo beats that anyway with his own). imo once Mewtwo gets the advantage he can get some pretty good damage in, due to his Fair (which combos and can knock you offstage easily) and his Uair (which can juggle pretty well if you're not careful, especially since it covers so much area). Oh yeah, he also has his Dair which is pretty threatening, though double jumping through it is really funny.

On the bright side, he's really easy to juggle, and his weight can help for earlier kills, but I don't feel like I'm in the advantage against Mewtwo. Not like he's my worst matchup or anything, it's just not very great (unless I get to land a down air, of course. Those are great).

 

[Mythzotick]

Fighting Mewtwo as Yoshi and in general is frustrating as it can be really hard to approach yet at the same time, you don't want to approach at u-throw kill percents, but you need to always be in his face because you don't want him to charge shadowball.

Since Yoshi has a bad grab game along with having a lot of laggy moves and Mewtwo having one of the best kill throws, if not, the best kill throw in the game, Mewtwo will want to shield against Yoshi. That already is a huge problem for us and it doesn't stop there.

Shadowball is one of the best moves in the game at making your opponent approach you because when fully charged; it does 25%, is a nice kill option, and CAN be safe when used in the air thanks to the recoil; sending him diagnolly downwards.

Against Mewtwo, I find playing the mid range game to be the most effective way since we can stay out of his grab range and we can afford to trade hits more than he can as he's a lot lighter than us. Empty short hops and air dodge short hops are also good for punishing Mewtwo's laggy moves like u-smash, f-smash, f-tilt (don't expect this move a lot though), and dair to name a few. Just don't over commit and use those options a lot as you'll probably get punished yourself.

I feel like Mewtwo maybe one of Yoshi's hardest match ups mainly do to that he doesn't have to throw out hitboxes when he can just sheild Yoshi's laggy attacks and doesn't have to worry that much about dying from getting grabbed on top of him being able to get the kill off of a vertical throw; meaning that position of stage doesn't matter as much compared to off to the side. Even if he wants to throw out hitboxes, he can as his fair outspeeds Yoshi's fair and out ranges Yoshi's nair along with nair having a big hitbox that can lead to some nasty options and d-till is also a fast move with great range and saftey that can setup for combos. Him also having a chargable move that is a huge threat automatically makes him the dictator of the match up.

That so far has been my experience playing against Mewtwo as Yoshi. I apologize if this wasn't super informative on how to deal with Mewtwo as I've hardly played this match up much sinced he got buffed.

 

[Delta-cod]

Whether or not it's rational, the main thing I'm scared of when Mewtwo is charging Shadowball is Shadowball itself

Y'know, I forgot that this was a thing he could do, heh.

Still, I don't see a problem with calmly approaching him from the ground. You can still shield, and even do so preemptively if you get scared, so long as you stay out of range of his other goto options from the charge. It's definitely much easier said than done, because it's not a very fun thing to steel yourself to do.

On the other hand, why not just let him charge? Once he's charged, we're all kind of at square one where nobody is forced to approach. It's not quite like letting Cloud charge Limit, because Mewtwo doesn't get general buffs for having a Shadow Ball in hand. I realize it gives him an extra option, but is the option so good that it makes it worth struggling to approach? I'm not sure if Mewtwo has any Shadow Ball combos (I'm sure he does, or at least 50-50s or something), but the trade off might not be bad.

For the record, Shadow Ball's hitbox begins on frame 23 when thrown. From a charge, it only takes 6 frames for it to get going. So reacting to it once it's charged seems to be easier. (http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Mewtwo)

 

[KenboCalrissian]

I have some thoughts about the Mewtwo match up, but I'd need some help from you guys to put them together.

What are the goto options for Mewtwo out of Shadowball Charge? Depending on what they are, we may not need to actually commit to approach in order to make him stop charging. Just get close enough to scare him, and then he has to try to fight us. And all this without needing to have actually done anything punishable (i.e. walking up to him).

Outside of the approach, I don't see any reason we should be worried about Mewtwo.

My Mewtwo's about on par with my Yoshi nowadays, so I think I can answer this.

Aside from what Pixel_ mentioned (Nair/Fair), Dtilt is very good at denying grounded approach options. It comes out fast, has low cooldown, and it's a disjoint. Sometimes as Mewtwo I'll just walk up and start spamming Dtilts to see if you'll run into it - if so, that often combos into Nair, Uair, and sometimes Fair.

Sh-Fair is another common option, and like I said, it clanks Yoshi's Fair. It either beats or clanks Nair too, can't recall which. In this MU, Sh-side B could be a good mixup for Mewtwo if he knows you're throwing a lot of eggs. If he reflects one of those, he'll be able to combo you.

Beware his fast run speed. One of my favorite approaches with Mewtwo is throw out the Shadow Ball and chase it. If you air dodge, side step, or get hit with it and it wasn't fully charged, I can combo into dash-attack, and sometimes combo that into Uair. At worst, I've gained stage advantage. On the other hand, if you shield, I can respond with a grab (unless you power shielded and have a quick jab to stop me with). Your best option against this approach is a full hop - but even then, you've granted me stage advantage.

 

[Crome]

Anyone here have experience with R.O.B v Yoshi? I need some answers for this match up, from the R.O.B side.

I feel like I'm constantly over extending, and that it's just impossible for R.O.B to get any hard punishes on Yoshi. I also have no answers for eggs, he out camps me and stuffs my approaches. The Yoshi I'm having issues with is a much better player than me, though. So it could just be that he's on another level.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Anyone here have experience with R.O.B v Yoshi? I need some answers for this match up, from the R.O.B side.

I feel like I'm constantly over extending, and that it's just impossible for R.O.B to get any hard punishes on Yoshi. I also have no answers for eggs, he out camps me and stuffs my approaches. The Yoshi I'm having issues with is a much better player than me, though. So it could just be that he's on another level2

R.O.B.'s my co-main with Yoshi, but I actually have very little knowledge on this MU. I avoid it as much as I can as Yoshi as I consider it one of his few very unfavorable MUs. I've played other Yoshi mains with my R.O.B. in friendlies (because they all counter away from it in bracket, and wisely so) and basically confirmed that Yoshi just gets outcamped and outranged at every opportunity.

Normally, rushdown characters can give R.O.B. trouble if you can stay in his face and prevent him from doing stuff with his gyros, but Yoshi's moves have a bit too much lag on them for him to really capitalize on that advantage. Yoshi already has trouble killing, and R.O.B. is hard enough to kill as it is.

If you're overextending, it sounds like you're not utilizing laser and gyro enough. Remember that Yoshi doesn't have a way to deal with range other than shielding, and our shields suck so we'd really rather not have to use them like that. Keep up the pressure at range and force him to come to you. Eggs aren't a big deal if you power shield them. If he's camping, you should be spinning up your gyro (remember to shield out of charge if he throws an egg). If he comes in, you can stuff him with laser or a quick gyro (careful if he's using dash attacks though, or he'll catch it), or if he's already too close for that, use Dtilt. Also remember that if you Nair, you can use Dtilt almost immediately after touching the ground - that's a good way to stuff his approaches as it covers Yoshi's Nair as well as grounded attacks.

Oh, and your grab game is way better than ours. Don't forget to beep-boop - that's one kill combo that Yoshi can't DJ out of. Another good one is gyro sniping a gimp or using it to ledge guard while Yoshi's off-stage - Yoshi has problems recovering and is prone to gimping, making the gyro a reliable finisher against him.

If you're still having trouble, send us a replay. R.O.B. should be winning this matchup, so I apologize if I haven't covered your specific issue.

 

[Crome]

R.O.B.'s my co-main with Yoshi, but I actually have very little knowledge on this MU. I avoid it as much as I can as Yoshi as I consider it one of his few very unfavorable MUs. I've played other Yoshi mains with my R.O.B. in friendlies (because they all counter away from it in bracket, and wisely so) and basically confirmed that Yoshi just gets outcamped and outranged at every opportunity.

Normally, rushdown characters can give R.O.B. trouble if you can stay in his face and prevent him from doing stuff with his gyros, but Yoshi's moves have a bit too much lag on them for him to really capitalize on that advantage. Yoshi already has trouble killing, and R.O.B. is hard enough to kill as it is.

If you're overextending, it sounds like you're not utilizing laser and gyro enough. Remember that Yoshi doesn't have a way to deal with range other than shielding, and our shields suck so we'd really rather not have to use them like that. Keep up the pressure at range and force him to come to you. Eggs aren't a big deal if you power shield them. If he's camping, you should be spinning up your gyro (remember to shield out of charge if he throws an egg). If he comes in, you can stuff him with laser or a quick gyro (careful if he's using dash attacks though, or he'll catch it), or if he's already too close for that, use Dtilt. Also remember that if you Nair, you can use Dtilt almost immediately after touching the ground - that's a good way to stuff his approaches as it covers Yoshi's Nair as well as grounded attacks.

Oh, and your grab game is way better than ours. Don't forget to beep-boop - that's one kill combo that Yoshi can't DJ out of. Another good one is gyro sniping a gimp or using it to ledge guard while Yoshi's off-stage - Yoshi has problems recovering and is prone to gimping, making the gyro a reliable finisher against him.

If you're still having trouble, send us a replay. R.O.B. should be winning this matchup, so I apologize if I haven't covered your specific issue.

Thanks for the very long, thought out reply. This definitely gives me hope for the MU. However, I do think you're under estimating my skill level a bit - which is fine, to you I'm just some smash boards rando who can't win a winning match up. I'm #5 in Wichita, Kansas. The Yoshi I'm referring to is Mr. Doom, #1 in Wichita, #2 in Kansas. So I think that's where my issues lie - he's on a higher level as a player than I am. This is accented by the notion that "Yoshi has trouble killing" and Doomsy himself has no problems killing me. I do know how to play R.O.B on a mechanical level, such as ac nair and shielding out of gyro charge.

I use laser and gyro constantly, my issue is he spaces around them then punishes me with an egg. I think my problem is that I'm using them like I would vs. any other char, and that I need to adjust for this match up. I try to camp, but I think he's counter playing me specifically and not my character. I'm not using laser and gyro intelligently enough in this match up. So camping hasn't been working for me.

Regarding gimping Yoshi - I do not think R.O.B does this all too well, but I could probably just get better at it. Gyro isn't actually terrible for breaking his DJ armor, but I've noticed nair bair, and fsmash are best for this. Strong laser is also ok considering it's range. I made a list of how all of R.O.B's moves interact with Yoshi's DJ armor - https://smashboards.com/threads/yoshi-heavy-armor-break-percents.430030/

Also I don't have any current replays - only ones from months ago when I was even worse.

 

[muddykips]

Honestly, lasers never gave me any issue in the Rob MU. They're not hard to react to, and it's quick enough where Yoshi doesn't have issues perfect shielding it. If Yoshi's egg camping, then yeah, it can punish him, but that doesn't sound like what your particular opponent does. At best, laser can make Yoshi's approaches more awkward, but at worst he'll SHAD through it and kill you with uair.

I think Rob's best tool in this MU, especially in neutral, is his nair - disjoints in general give Yoshi trouble, and nair can be used for spacing, punishing, and even landing. It can stuff out a lot of things Yoshi might try, and limit his options - just try not to use it aggressively. Floating away from Yoshi while nairing can also be annoying P:

Though also just try not to be aggressive in general, Yoshi tends to like it when opponents play similarly aggressive. Remember that his grab sucks and has almost no reward, and always be on the lookout for angles where Yoshi might try to throw out command grab. If you can do that, you'll have a good shield game against him.

If you try throwing out gyro against Yoshi in neutral, he'll just catch it. Use it to punish his landings mainly, imo.

Also, never be directly above Yoshi, since nair won't help you much with landing. On the flip side, Yoshi can't do anything about Rob's uair, so it's good to be directly under him.

 

[Crome]

Honestly, lasers never gave me any issue in the Rob MU. They're not hard to react to, and it's quick enough where Yoshi doesn't have issues perfect shielding it. If Yoshi's egg camping, then yeah, it can punish him, but that doesn't sound like what your particular opponent does. At best, laser can make Yoshi's approaches more awkward, but at worst he'll SHAD through it and kill you with uair.

I think Rob's best tool in this MU, especially in neutral, is his nair - disjoints in general give Yoshi trouble, and nair can be used for spacing, punishing, and even landing. It can stuff out a lot of things Yoshi might try, and limit his options - just try not to use it aggressively. Floating away from Yoshi while nairing can also be annoying P:

Though also just try not to be aggressive in general, Yoshi tends to like it when opponents play similarly aggressive. Remember that his grab sucks and has almost no reward, and always be on the lookout for angles where Yoshi might try to throw out command grab. If you can do that, you'll have a good shield game against him.

If you try throwing out gyro against Yoshi in neutral, he'll just catch it. Use it to punish his landings mainly, imo.

Also, never be directly above Yoshi, since nair won't help you much with landing. On the flip side, Yoshi can't do anything about Rob's uair, so it's good to be directly under him.

Now this is more similar to my experience. Thanks for the advice.

Additional question - What to do about Yoshi's dair on shield and on hit? Typically I just kind of let him do it, but I don't think that's the best option.