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>egg toss killing
Worded it horribly, I'm sorry. I meant that counter can kill. If you're having an issue with Shulk then egg camping can be an easy pass to about 180%.
I'm trying to learn more about the Yoshi vs. Lucas MU - I'm losing pretty horribly in that one, but I can't find anything about it. It seems Lucas has a ton of options that get out faster than Yoshi, so he can pretty much just bait and punish all day. Any advice?
The Wall
Pretty sure he's asking for advice on what to do against him as Yoshi, not as him. Although it's actually good to know what he has to do against us so we know what to expect and how to prepare in advance.
What
Nikes
said, but it's still helpful to see from the opponent's perspective.
Thanks for the advice! That makes a lot of sense... Now I just gotta practice with the guy who keeps beating me and see how it works out.
See that's the exact problem from what I can see. Yoshi has to make reads while sonic doesn't have to commit. So if Sonic just spin dashes a lot and shields a lot then Yoshi is automatically at a disadvantage. Eggs aren't good as an approach because they get blown up by spin dash, Yoshi's grab is way too much of a commitment and not enough reward to reliably beat shields, and while fair is safe on shield if space properly that also gets blown up by Sonic's fast moves. So how is Yoshi supposed to approach Sonic?
But, like, you hold forward on the control stick, and you get around eggs as Sonic. If Yoshi throws an egg on the ground that's either a blocked egg and then punish or dash attack, and air egg is either jump/spring and then aerial or a free juggle situation. Honestly I think Seagull was just giving eggs too much respect.
My biggest problem with a full hop approach is that if Sonic shields the spin dash all of a sudden Yoshi is stuck in a juggle situation. Sonic can drop shield, jump, spring, or even up smash, he still retains plenty of options to take advantage of the situation. Forcing Sonic to cancel the dash isn't really a problem because it's exactly that, canceled, he doesn't lose anything doing that.
DO YOU REALIZE WHAT YOU JUST SAID
I lost to Dunnobro once. I beat his
like 3 times. I do think wins the matchup slightly tho.
Yeah Sonic needs to react, but since Yoshi doesn't have many options to go in on Sonic it's pretty easy to prepare for a jump. Also it's not exactly like Sonic is pressed for time to get under Yoshi. Egg Toss does seem to be the best option in that situation but still I don't know how well that works because it doesn't cover directly below Yoshi. I think the bigger problem is if the Sonic just waits out the momentum shift and chases correctly Yoshi isn't much closer to the ground. In terms of the records, I think it's partially the fact that Yoshi has a lot of wacky things he can get away with if the opponent doesn't know how to play against, bair "setups" being the most obvious example. And there aren't nearly as many Yoshis as there are Sonics.
I think here's where you might be going wrong. I don't believe eggs are one of our main neutral tools in this game, for a variety of reasons (speed, the trajectory not being as good in general, etc). It's worth trying to expand your conception of Yoshi away from reliance on eggs. They're useful in certain situations, but we're definitely better off just using our mobility and range (sorta) in most cases.
Eggs are a projectile, that makes them inherently valuable as a tool in neutral. It's definitely not the go-to option all the time (especially because of that sometimes terrible arc), but just being a projectile means it has it's place in neutral (unless it's named Din's Fire or Phantom Slash). Sonic's speed invalidates that projectile because of it's arc, forcing Yoshi to fight him in a situation where his weaknesses (terrible grab and throws, bad rolls, subpar out of shield options) can be exploited. Yoshi is usually better off abusing his mobility, but therein lies the problem, Sonic has just as much if not more. That's one of the reasons I feel this matchup is so bad.
Not all projectiles are created equal -- some are more useful in some situations than others. Ours are great for added pressure when we're already in advantage (air dodge baits, setups off stage, etc.), while some are more useful in neutral (Needles, Bananas).
I completely agree, I call eggs a main neutral tool though is that in some matchups they are a very important part. Eggs, as a projectile, force characters to approach. This gives Yoshi an advantage in matchups against characters like Marth who don't have a projectile and thus have to approach. Yeah in most matchups they aren't anything fantastic outside of continuing offensive momentum and movement shenanigans but against characters without a projectile they're quite useful, but again not the entirety of neutral. But because eggs can be dodged so easily by Sonic that means Yoshi can't force him to approach and can't exploit Sonic's lack of a projectile. So I ask the question, how is Yoshi supposed to approach Sonic in a way that doesn't put him in a bad position (like full hopping at him) or rely on a heavy commitment (like trying to dash grab a spin dash/shielding Sonic)?
6WX has only lost to me once. We're 1-1 lol. Seagull is the other Sonic I think you might be confusing who I've beat. And Yoshi does beat Sonic imo 55:45. We just have to play really campy without eggs. Eggs are bad in this mu unless we're frame trapping in the air or something. Never use in neutral. Nair spam works if he wants to commit which he will eventually.
