Guide Knitting a Yoshi Chart - MU Portal

[Skitrel]

Remember that Mario also has poor range. Retreating aerials (especially bair) are great.

Seconded.

Retreating bair pretty much stuffs the matchup completely. Bair knocks his fireballs out of the air and he's too slow to chase Yoshi, whether he runs at us or rolls at us retreating bair is a wall, I've yet to run into a Mario that can get past it.

You have to be careful when you hit the edge and have to get past him, but otherwise my recommendation for Yoshi vs Mario is to circle camp him with eggs and a wall of retreating bair.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I really don't see how the retreating bair thing can work. Do you mean SH bair or FH bair?

 

[Skitrel]

I really don't see how the retreating bair thing can work. Do you mean SH bair or FH bair?

Shorthop without fastfall repeated moving away from Mario as he's approaching over and over again.

Mario wants to come in for combos out of utilt, grabs, rolls into downsmash etc. He will often cover with fireball and try to get inside your range. If you simply retreating bair against all of his approach attempts he gets walled out completely, his rolls move straight into it as do his runs. He's not quick enough to punish any landing lag.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

But he should be. Especially if he shields it. It has a dumb hitlag multiplier making it have much more lag against shields. This wont work against any good player.

 

[Skitrel]

But he should be. Especially if he shields it. It has a dumb hitlag multiplier making it have much more lag against shields. This wont work against any good player.

Well my experience has been that he's not quick enough. Perhaps that's a viable way for Mario to adapt to the strategy but I've yet to see any Marios perform it. Until people adapt it doesn't matter, much like we all know that SHADnair can be stopped by opponents easily yet it continues to be a highly successful approach option for Yoshi because people simply aren't adapting to it.

I'll stop doing it to Marios if/when they start countering it reliably. But right now they don't seem to.

 

[Delta-cod]

It might be worth thinking of back up plans for that case in advance, however. Don't want to get flustered mid set.

 

[Skitrel]

It might be worth thinking of back up plans for that case in advance, however. Don't want to get flustered mid set.

You're absolutely rigt, always have a pre-written adaptation to the most likely adaptation of the matchup. Plan B is retreating turnaround egglay.

It's higher risk as it's got more landing lag resulting in a more likely punish if it whiffs, but an opponent that demonstrates they can get around the above strategy with the prior proposed adaptation will be munched by it when they try that adaptation a second time.

Then it comes down to 50:50, so b reversal mixups at the edgeguard circle-around can tack on further unexpected damage where an opponent is expecting the circle camping retreating bair strategy to continue. Before you know it they've taken at least 1 bair, possibly 2, any followups from the positional advantage of that, at least 1 or 2 egglays plus follow ups, plus eggs, plus switch ups when changing sides after being chased to the ledge.

That's anywhere from 100 to 300% damage, which is a comfortable 2 stocks right there.

Opponent morale and confidence should be broken game one in this matchup. From game two you can play normal Yoshi aggressive gameplay and watch your opponent crumble under the pressure because their inability to answer your odd strategy in game one has flustered them. They'll be trying to counter a strategy that you're no longer implementing while simultaneously being scared of it and under the pressure of being a game down.

It's your set to lose at that point.

Play the player.

 

[Lukingordex]

You're absolutely rigt, always have a pre-written adaptation to the most likely adaptation of the matchup. Plan B is retreating turnaround egglay.

It's higher risk as it's got more landing lag resulting in a more likely punish if it whiffs, but an opponent that demonstrates they can get around the above strategy with the prior proposed adaptation will be munched by it when they try that adaptation a second time.

Then it comes down to 50:50, so b reversal mixups at the edgeguard circle-around can tack on further unexpected damage where an opponent is expecting the circle camping retreating bair strategy to continue. Before you know it they've taken at least 1 bair, possibly 2, any followups from the positional advantage of that, at least 1 or 2 egglays plus follow ups, plus eggs, plus switch ups when changing sides after being chased to the ledge.

What if Mario doesn't approach you?

 

[Skitrel]

What if Mario doesn't approach you?

Endless SHeggs until he does.

The way I see BO3 psychology works like this though:

Game 1: Both players start with confidence. They both want to rip apart their opponent. They're both of neutral psychology. This results in both sides going for approaches and both sides clashing hard with one another until a psychology advantage occurs.

Game 2: One person becomes disenfranchised. They play more cautiously than they did before while attempting to utilise a counter strategy. They're defensively trying to counter approaches and are typically more susceptible to grabs.

Game 3: They must have made a comeback in order for this to happen. Psychology on both sides could be crumbling. Defensive and fearful play tends to escalate for both players, a percentage lead will usually cause one side to crumble entirely.

***
The point being that the first game is usually the most aggressive game. It's the game where both sides are significantly more likely to test their approaches against their opponent as there are no points on the board and nobody knows the outcomes yet.

Defensive safe play strategies punishing your opponent's aggressive approach options work strongly in game one followed by aggressive grab heavy strategies against a fearful opponent in round two.

Hence why it's pretty likely that Mario WILL approach you.

Once you get a percentage lead he's completely forced to anyway.

 

[Lukingordex]

I kind of understand your point, but there are players who are capable of controling emotions not allowing them to affect their performance I'm such a bad way, and are always taking the best decisions possible in every situation, I don't think this strategy would be so effective against those kind of players.

 

[Skitrel]

I kind of understand your point, but there are players who are capable of controling emotions not allowing them to affect their performance I'm such a bad way, and are always taking the best decisions possible in every situation, I don't think this strategy would be so effective against those kind of players.

There really aren't. Everyone is emotionally affected. Momentum and psychology matters.

Smash is a tiny little competitive game with no training regimens, no real coaching, no real sports psychologists, nothing. Tennis players at the highest level of competition like Murray, Nadal and Djokovic are affected visibly by game psychology and it affects the overall outcome of a match.

Don't dismiss the psychological game. It plays an enormous role in Smash. Every single player experiences salt, every single player gets frustrated when they're losing, every single player gets frustrated at themselves or some circumstances. It's a huge part of the game and you should play it to your advantage.

Assuming an opponent is coolheaded and loses in game 1 they will always switch strategies in game 2. It's common sense. Whatever they do in game 1 expect a losing player to do the complete opposite of in game 2. So, if they lose their approaching game in game 1 expect a defensive game in game 2. Switching your own strategy for your opponent's likely change in strategy is a key to really breaking them down entirely.

If they're hotheaded then they'll go on TILT and super-aggro instead.

Work out which they are quickly.

 

[Fuerzo]

I know a lot of you guys dislike the Smash community on Reddit (for good reason lmao), but I've started a Yoshi MU discussion series on /r/YoshiMains (I'm /u/Gandesa on there). We're talking about Sheik. I've already seen Skitrel give input.

 

[ReturningFall]

I kind of understand your point, but there are players who are capable of controling emotions not allowing them to affect their performance I'm such a bad way, and are always taking the best decisions possible in every situation, I don't think this strategy would be so effective against those kind of players.

There really aren't. Everyone is emotionally affected. Momentum and psychology matters.

Smash is a tiny little competitive game with no training regimens, no real coaching, no real sports psychologists, nothing. Tennis players at the highest level of competition like Murray, Nadal and Djokovic are affected visibly by game psychology and it affects the overall outcome of a match.

Don't dismiss the psychological game. It plays an enormous role in Smash. Every single player experiences salt, every single player gets frustrated when they're losing, every single player gets frustrated at themselves or some circumstances. It's a huge part of the game and you should play it to your advantage.

Assuming an opponent is coolheaded and loses in game 1 they will always switch strategies in game 2. It's common sense. Whatever they do in game 1 expect a losing player to do the complete opposite of in game 2. So, if they lose their approaching game in game 1 expect a defensive game in game 2. Switching your own strategy for your opponent's likely change in strategy is a key to really breaking them down entirely.

If they're hotheaded then they'll go on TILT and super-aggro instead.

Work out which they are quickly.

I think you're both right to an extent. I've seen guys who can keep their cool in all sorts of situations. I've also seen guys who can get really emotional without showing it in their play. And guys who may as well keep an emoji above their character to tell you what they are thinking of doing next. Reading an opponents' emotional state is really key to landing the important plays (like our always needed kill hits). The trick is getting them into a situation where you can get in their heads in the first place. Which is where we probably need to figure out an effective way to pressure with Yoshi more than anything.

More importantly, some guys start the match very defensive just to see what your strategy is before they start taking damage. I've seen guys who play really, really defensively in general and they're really, really hard to beat. Some guys just stay defensive even when losing expecting you to lose patience or run low on endurance and make a mistake. I think it's a mistake to assume that you can start defensive or have an opponent approach without forcing the situation. (And forcing the situation can be a really hard thing to know ahead of time. Ever play someone who sat in one spot and shielded your eggs for 3 and a half minutes straight in a serious match? I have.)

Don't assume everyone plays offensively. Most players do because sitting around is boring. But some players are just that patient.

 

[Delta-cod]

It's generally worth assuming that, unless the player is known for his patience, that you can outwait them if you know you have the patience for it. I love playing grindy games with people, the clock is my best friend.

 

[Skitrel]

I think you're both right to an extent. I've seen guys who can keep their cool in all sorts of situations. I've also seen guys who can get really emotional without showing it in their play. And guys who may as well keep an emoji above their character to tell you what they are thinking of doing next. Reading an opponents' emotional state is really key to landing the important plays (like our always needed kill hits). The trick is getting them into a situation where you can get in their heads in the first place. Which is where we probably need to figure out an effective way to pressure with Yoshi more than anything.

More importantly, some guys start the match very defensive just to see what your strategy is before they start taking damage. I've seen guys who play really, really defensively in general and they're really, really hard to beat. Some guys just stay defensive even when losing expecting you to lose patience or run low on endurance and make a mistake. I think it's a mistake to assume that you can start defensive or have an opponent approach without forcing the situation. (And forcing the situation can be a really hard thing to know ahead of time. Ever play someone who sat in one spot and shielded your eggs for 3 and a half minutes straight in a serious match? I have.)

Don't assume everyone plays offensively. Most players do because sitting around is boring. But some players are just that patient.

The thing is that it just doesn't matter in the vast majority of matchups.

Yoshi's projectile is one of the best in the game, the only projectile character that can force Yoshi to approach instead is Tink.

There's just no need to be aggressive with Yoshi from the start, if you sit back and spam projectiles you can and will guarantee this psychological setup against all except timeout players.

You'll already know who the timeout players are before you go into a match with them.

 

[Lukingordex]

I don't agree with this, aerial egg throw is not really that safe for camping, when I stopped spamming that I started to do a lot better overall in my matches...
You have to land after you use it and is where your opponent have a opening to hit you.
If you want a good example about how egg throw is not really a effective camping tool just play against a competent sonic, sheik or most top/high tier characters that have better neutral than Yoshi.

 

[Skitrel]

You don't throw them at characters fast enough to grab you during landing lag.

Camping against a Sonic is just plain silly, that gives him all the control. Sonic is an easy win for Yoshi by staying all over him disallowing him any time to setup his spindashes from positions he likes to be. Pushing him out of his comfort zone breaks his entire playstyle.

Sheik can't punish a Yoshi that does SHeggthrow>nair>jab on landing. She either gets hit by the nair or runs straight into the jabs. Theorhetically she could powershield grab you but at that point you just swap the nair out for egglay and you're golden. They become too afraid to try to punish it because 50:50 against egglay/nair is not a good trade as Sheik, Yoshi gets more damage than she does out of it.

 

[Lukingordex]

You don't throw them at characters fast enough to grab you during landing lag.

Camping against a Sonic is just plain silly, that gives him all the control. Sonic is an easy win for Yoshi by staying all over him disallowing him any time to setup his spindashes from positions he likes to be. Pushing him out of his comfort zone breaks his entire playstyle.

Sheik can't punish a Yoshi that does SHeggthrow>nair>jab on landing. She either gets hit by the nair or runs straight into the jabs. Theorhetically she could powershield grab you but at that point you just swap the nair out for egglay and you're golden. They become too afraid to try to punish it because 50:50 against egglay/nair is not a good trade as Sheik, Yoshi gets more damage than she does out of it.

I'm interested in seeing vods of a yoshi being capable of winning against Sonic and Sheik in the way you mentioned, would help me a lot.

 

[Skitrel]

I'm interested in seeing vods of a yoshi being capable of winning against Sonic and Sheik in the way you mentioned, would help me a lot.

I've got a setup on the way so the next fortnight or so I can probably oblige. If I pick anything up that's under 3 minutes I'll oblige even sooner through the ingame upload however Sonic matches tend to drag on.

He really struggles with a Yoshi that doesn't let him reset to neutral. He ends up being forced to upB/Dair to get to ground and try to run away, it causes all kinds of havoc.

Typically Sonics like to run to the other side of the map, then spindash back at you. If you keep this in mind at all times when playing a Sonic then you can chase them down in such a way that applies pressure they can't handle very well.

It took me a considerable amount of time experimenting with the matchup before I realised that pretty much rushing them down non-stop is what seems to work. Any time that they're given space to breathe they take superior control of the next step in the match by using spindash approaches. Sonics WANT to be the character approaching, never allowing them breathing room puts them in a situation they find very uncomfortable.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

nair to jab wont stop Sheik's shield grabs. nair would need to have landing lag of 6 frames and it has 11

 

[Skitrel]

Nair doesn't seem to have that lag but the hitbox still activates if used late right before the ground, this causes Sheik to get hit by it. I could be wrong, I could have just picked up a lot of bad Sheiks on anthers, but I don't have an issue with her getting through this.

What I have encountered as an adaptation to this is Sheik throwing needles at me on my landing and then running in or using bouncing fish. That can be problematic.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

A lot of people just give Yoshi a ton of credit because they believe he is invincible, give up and don't bother trying to punish things that are punishable. This can be abused of course, but I believe using strategies that are only good against people who don't try will just lead to a wall later when you play people who wont let you get away with that stuff.

 

[Kaishin]

A lot of people just give Yoshi a ton of credit because they believe he is invincible, give up and don't bother trying to punish things that are punishable. This can be abused of course, but I believe using strategies that are only good against people who don't try will just lead to a wall later when you play people who wont let you get away with that stuff.

Hey I fought you on Anthers before.

Rosalina main, recently decided to secondary Yoshi since the combination of the two covers every matchup. I have found that wifi lag in fact is the reason why Yoshi feels so lagless (though I still think Yoshi v R&L is a -1 for Rosa). Its kinda like Link. Shadow, if you play almost exclusively Anthers that's the reason why people will complain about him after losing. Yoshi is beyond OP with the unavoidable input delay over wifi.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I actually don't hear many complaints on Anthers. It's usually mostly on Smashboards and Skype groups.

 

[Doublenickels]

Just curious. Can we get some Lucario matchup discussion?

Even when I beat a Lucario it is just irritating, the character drives me up a wall. I go out there and rack up filthy amounts of damage only to have it work against me. It's infuriating. I don't know what to do about closing out a stock on a Lucario fast enough to not get bopped by aura.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Thanks for sharing.

 

[YoHeKing]

Hey guys i found a Yoshi tech i call it


















YOSHI IS ******* BROKEN U ******* JUST MASH A LIKE ITS NOTHING PLAY A REAL CHARACTER LIKE FOX OR BOWSER OR **** LIKE THAT

LIKE ****ING JESUS THIS CHARACTR IS BULL**** GOD ****ING DAMMIT I HATE HOW YOU CAN BEAT A GOOD BOWSER JUST BY PRESSING A

******** THAT USE YOSHI BETTER SWITCH OR ELSE U GONNA GET A BEATING FROM MAH BOWSER

I guess this isn't the first thread you have posted on. Because if you want to call yoshi brain dead you have to go through alot of other characters.

Anyways I found alot of uses and set ups for Yoshis forward tilt and found out that you can cancel up b off ledges from someone hitting your shield like melee. No clue forward tilt comboed and set up so many things.

Edit: wrong thread...

BUT man ITS TRUE ALL YOU GUYS DO IS PRESS A SAME WIV MARIO AND WEEG IT NOT FUN





so pls stop and use more movez (((


i want u 2 face ny bowser

doz anyon wanna face my bowser i am very good

Your salty because of Yoshi players... But your saying you can beat them... Just stop. I ain't gonna reply to you at all next time.

 

[Doublenickels]

BUT man ITS TRUE ALL YOU GUYS DO IS PRESS A SAME WIV MARIO AND WEEG IT NOT FUN





so pls stop and use more movez (((


i want u 2 face ny bowser

doz anyon wanna face my bowser i am very good

Ebin troll! You are le master ruseman!

Seriously at least try to be subtle if you're trying to rile people up.

Anyways, if you're serious, I'd love to get some match up work against Bowser, there's not a lot of them so I don't play against them often. I'm curious to see how it plays out, and if there's anything I can do to improve against Bowser and heavies in general. Send me a private message if you'd like to set up some friendlies.

 

[IsmaR]

It's not worth replying to obvious troll accounts. Next time just ignore/report them.

 

[Pajon]

Hello guys can we please talk about the toon link matchup I've been having problems with it

 

[JBones]

Anyone got some quick Mario tips? I'm going against a high seeded player today.

 

[Nikes]

You can Nair out of his usual Dthrow combo, but if he's aware of this he might shield your Nair instead or upB you so be aware of that. If they're full hopping fireballs you should be able to Usmash him from underneath...not too much else to say unfortunately, sorry I think it's a good idea to go to a stage with lots of breathing room against him, somewhere where he can't really chase you down or pressure you as much.
Hope someone else can contribute here in time, it's late here so I can't think of much else. Good luck today, do your best.

Edit: Now that I think about it this was probably already too late...let us know how you go/went against them.

 

[A_Kae]

Hello, Yoshi mains. The Marth boards have begun discussion on the Yoshi matchup. If you have any input to add, or wish to fight against a Marth player for matchup knowledge, please join us.

http://smashboards.com/threads/vs-yoshi-matchup-discussion-and-analysis.414708/

 

[Fuerzo]

Anyone got some quick Mario tips? I'm going against a high seeded player today.

You can get out of most of his early combo stuff by either nair or double jump. Also remember that Yoshi has both better range and better mobility--Mario lacks answers to retreating back airs in particular.

 

[Nikes]

Just quickly, anybody have any advice on the Robin MU? It's a weird MU, I would've thought we'd win it easy by simply out speeding him/her but it's actually harder to get in than I thought.

Edit: turns out they're pretty easy to gimp, I was able edgeguard with nair until they ran out of UpB's lawl.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Only go in when Robin uses a projectile. Camping is super viable in this MU, just be careful you don't get trapped by Thoron or Arcthunder. Also constant eggs make it hard/impossible to charge the Thunder tome.

 

[Fuerzo]

Respect Robin's aerials (bair is deceptively fast and powerful), but use your vastly superior mobility to your advantage and keep up egg pressure. Remember that Arcfire can often be escaped by double jumping.

 

[Delta-cod]

Also, Robin's Uair is all kinds of ridiculous. So you'll need to be really careful while landing.

 

[noft]

On the flipside, we're more mobile during aerial eggs, which can potentially keep you safer. Both have their pros and cons imo. I think aerial eggs tend to be better for aggression though.

i feel like a short hop egg with a dj cancel 2nd egg throw adds alot to his, utilizing mix up to include a different delayed egg toss option, i believe egg toss slide to be more of a deffensive option in a retreating situation from melee heavy characters, and can be a mix up offensive against projectile heavy character.

ok so for the baiting game with yoshi?

i have played into it and seen it used with a variety of characters and by playing or watching other yoshis from the board use this, whether its doing wonky ariel movements combined with attacks, ive also noticed that during this play style the use of eggs are not used as much,

i usually get messed up with this when i lose the first and the opponent is at a high percent, 1. because im pressured to even it up,
2. because im stuck in a mind game/tunnel vision,

after that phase the opponent yoshi will start to kite me, taking advantage of my weakened state. ima call this the kiting stage because i lack any better names for this.

i want to develop a game style thatll implement the kiting phase and the baiting stage; however, im having a difficult time atm incorporating it. any advice?

pretty much im more of a rushdown "with style" yoshi player who utilizes a variety of techs and weird movement options while investing heavily into aggression to make
yoshi seem fancy lmao, it works out until i lose all momentum and play into someones mind game, i noticed i had a few different play styles thats converted from melee. but this game takes a few more to play at a higher level with yoshi atleast, im putting in alot of work to get yoshis foxtrots dash dancing game down bcuz of its mix up utility into nairs or fairs or even grabs, its only difficult becuz of te lack of muscle memory, (basically "foxtrot" (input dash immediatly following the end of the initial dash animation) (i mess up the foxtrot part up trying to figure out when i need to do my next ft varying on the situation and then i mess this next part up (reversing foxtrot)sometimes because ill skid if not done right or ill perfect pivot if my thumb leaves the stick to early lmao) immediately after u input for dash, reverse direction to get that instant reversed run into more foxtrots) this can be changed up, the hard part is accidentally skidding by not mashing the opposite input fast enougn. but ive learned u can mash the other direction during the skid animation to recover from it faster then pick the movement back up. who here uses the reversed running egglay using (tilt stick and special R) btw u think its better then pivot grabs?

 

[Aygent]

Yoshi boards! I have deeply considered Yoshi as a main. He is loads of fun to play and I am tired of being knocked out of brackets by Fox mains playing ROB. I respect the armor he has with some of his moves. Any advice for a week one Yoshi? Thank you.