Kittens versus Domo-kuns - Game over, who won?

[Swiss]

I woke up 15 minutes ago, give me a chance to get on gears.

Ran I don't think you a useful lynch at this point. Gimme a couple of minutes.

 

[ranmaru]

Heh, no excuse. I have been up all night... ;p

kk.

 

[Swiss]

K.

Joey, you seem to be set on Ran scum. Question why other more experienced payers are hesitant to call him scum. It's because he often plays highly illogical games. You are correct in a fair amount of what you say about him - but bad, scummy play does not equate to someone's alignment being scum. In the case of Ran this is especially true.

I'm not saying Ran is auto-town, but we should, and will, lynch someone who will benefit us more, like Moth. Plus, I see no danger in Ranscum being left alive, though I don't believe this to be the case.

Sweet Jesus I remember now. I remember what it felt like back when I used to post content.

 

[Swiss]

Also for what it's worth I didn't find Ran scummy early game, if that affects anyone's reads, J I think I'm talking to you here, but mad multi-tasking.

And Ran don't do what you just did, anyone could screenie and get you modkilled. Of course, I'm not referring to anything in particular here, as no rules were broken. Just lil' 'ol me trollin'. Ignore this paragraph.

 

[ranmaru]

Oh that. I have a theory on J's 'dislike' of me in every game. Before, he had always had me as null, hard to read. At first, I have seen him say "I don't like ran" when I only post TWO POSTS and am just beginning the game. I would think he was scum for trying to twist my words, but sometimes he isn't. So I'm like "WTF, J?" I don't really understand. Now, I feel as though he just does that to GET ME OUT OF THE WAY, for example, Soul Calibur. So now I feel as though he just is always null on me and always wants to lynch me because I might flip scum and it doesn't matter to him.

 

[ranmaru]

@J:
Not at all. I wouldn’t expect Fynal to be lynched based on that reasoning.

I’d be using POE with whatever scumreads I had at the moment. At the time I was voting Swords I didn’t really have much reads. My reasoning with the Sword’s vote was disagreeing with his reasoning. IE: I was saying he was wrong, but I said I liked the newb pressure nonetheless. I just wagoned for reads, like it or not.

No, that wasn’t the reason. I had said “Gord is not town. Moth is not town. J is probably not town” because of your vote on me, and how you totally left Sword’s wagon to me. Btw, how did your read on Swords progress after that?
Basically, you always seem to find me scummy in every game, so I just think you are scum trying to twist my words (Like you did above) but you seem to do that regardless of alignment, so I don’t really know if you care about trying to read me. I remember that you would always have a null read on me, and I feel that you’d just rather lynch me to get me out of the way then legitly thinking I’m scum. So I then put you to null.

Slight suspicion, but wagoning on him was done to better my reads. I said I was fine with lynching Gord over him. (Then I voted him)

I didn’t like his reason, but I was fine with the newb pressure. Never did you see me say he was scummy for it though.

It wasn’t a reason for him being scum though, just that I thought he was jumping to conclusions pretty quickly there. And I plopped my vote on.

 

[Swiss]

I've pinned scum off their first RVS post. So that's irrelevant.

Also, I'm trying to help you here, and these posts will serve only to antagonise J. That's not conducive to your survival, since he has more voting swing than you here.

In the interests of interesting topics, policy lynches themselves aren't too bad. For example; say I added no benefit to town (I do, promise), most players find it hard to pin an alignment on me - if I added no gain to town, why not lynch me (policy) if they had no scumspects? Policy lynches themselves aren't too bad. Look at Cello when he commands an entire game - if he thinks someone will cause a major issue to his plan and thus the progress of town, he'll lynch them D1 provided he has no scum picks. I also tend to policy lynch Riddle for sheer amusement.

Not sure why I brought this up, I'm sure it was on topic at the time.

 

[ranmaru]

No, I didn't bring that up as in game content, actually. I just thought it would be nice to know why I have a hard time reading J here. Thx, but I'm not trying to survive.

Eh, maybe in a large game. I don't think we have much room to maneuver in a small game, which is why I'm also worried J is fine with moving towards Moth without really ever speaking about him before.

I know what I did was dumb but it was a gut thing. If town doesn't think that I helped somehow, then I'm sorry and I'll look at what I have done wrong later.

I have seen you saying that we should be looking at Moth, but I haven't really seen the reason why. Can you expand on that? (Please? <3)

We have 2 v 7 at the start of the game.

Then 2 v 5 D2. Then 2 v 3 D3. Can't policy lynch this game or we waste a mislynch. This is if scum night kill compulsively and if scum haven't been lynched correctly yet. Of course, I'd hope they would.

One question: Why would Newb MothSCUM put me at l-1?

 

[Swiss]

Putting you at L-1 hoping for a hammer, newb scum HATE hammering. L-1'ing is often worse than hammering, because people tend to hate on the hammers not those who put them there.

He may not have realised - like me, though.

I'll construct a case after hears and lunch. I'd forgotten I hadn't what with the moth hate floating about

 

[ranmaru]

Well I was thinking that newb scum wouldn't even vote late, because I'm sure they'd have their partner yelling at them in the qt NOT TO. Their instinct is to survive, therefore they wouldn't do stupid things like I would.

I'd expect for NEWBSCUMMoth to be coached into being pro-town, therefore early voting or voting near the middle. As newb scum in my newb, I was very cautious and voted near the middle or voted weak players that didn't contribute. I was essentially a straggler. Uber Mario was lynched D1 (easy lynch), Then Vandie was lynched D2 (LOLZ), and then uh... what's his name... I forgot. The tracker who fake claimed a guitly on Vandie, was voted by Glyph and was alpha striked. I won mostly because of town's bad play, and me being under the radar. I don't even think I voted D2. I was afraid of Vandie and Meta Kirby and didn't know if me and Seph would have survived.

Anyways the Uber lynch was the important point relating to why I think Moth may not really be scum here. He just seems like influenced newb town.

A few things can discredit this:

• He can be paired with another newb, therefore him + Fynal. (Because he is the only other inexperienced person in this game) This doesn't seem right because I find Fynal's push to be pro-town. I know Fynal has messed up with L-1 needing to claim or w/e in the past, but he didn't quite get it because his partners were also inexperienced. This also doesn't seem right because Fynal has experienced the L-1 being bad before, so I'm sure he'd deff tell his possible buddy NOT to vote someone at l-1. So I don't think this would be the case.
  
• Another thing that can discredit my theory, is possibly his scum partner doesn't like to sync too much to create the perfect distance. Basically the "I'm not talking much in the qt, just do what you do and if you start to get scummy I'll bus you" this way scum can play naturally and don't seem as 'fake'. And to hide connections. No plan, just play it by ear. This essentially could make sense as to why Moth would be making newb mistakes as newb scum regarding l-1 and claims. I have never seen a play like this, though, ever. Most Qt's I have seen have been riddled with discussion. Might be possible with conservative players.
  
• Another reason that can discredit my theory on this is if Moth had a damn good reason to put me at L-1, therefore making it pro-town to vote me at l-1, and not getting him heat = Survival because it was pro-town. What did get him heat was him disbelieving the claim. I find it hard to believe he wouldn't ask about that as newb scum. The bad part is I agree with J's reasoning as to why Moth is pretty scummy, for trying to force "Well he's scummy so that's why I disbelieve the claim".

Basically, questions to everyone who thinks Moth is scum:

• Do you think Moth is paired with another inexperienced mafia player, if he is scum?
• Do you think he is paired with an *experienced mafia player who likes to play solo to hide connections and play by ear? If so, who would you think that player would be?
• Do you think Moth's reason was good to vote me, and do you think it was ok for him to put me at l-1?
• If Moth flips scum, who would you think was his buddy? If he flips town, who is scum?
• Could Moth have been just really confident and influenced newb town? (Regarding him disbelieving my claim) **Joey need your meta help here plz

*Experienced as in more than 2 games played overall. (This excludes Moth because he is the subject of the question and also excludes Fynal because this is his second game)

@Swiss: Did you state a read on Gord? I'd rather lynch him then Moth honestly.

 

[ranmaru]

@EBWOP: I mean I'd rather lynch Gord instead of Moth.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Sorry. Don't have a lot of time. Gotta check in with this and two other games, then gotta get ready to make it to a gig. Kinda rushing. If I skim over things, quoting things that I should take note of would help quite a bit.

@Gord: What may you think that I was already going for a lynch? How do you suppose anyone can defend against simply being accused of lying (btw, didn't bring this point up previously but it still holds merit)? What do you think of me now?

Also, another things. Unless I'm mistaken, don't you not like meta? You say you're "only using it as a lead," but why even that? I'm pretty sure you know that meta is bad because it's relaying on the possibility that the person in question hasn't changed their playstyle.

I didn't think you were going for a lynch. I said it looked like you were setting up the easy Fynal lynch. I like you a bit more.

I don't like meta when it's overused, and when it's based on previous experience rather than sheer knowledge of the person. And you can't drive a point off of meta. It's like a bike. You can just use it as training wheels. But if you wanna learn how to ride a scum read, you gotta be able to take the training wheels off.

I'm vanilla townie. Can has cheezburger cat. :3

I cc.

Oh wait -_____________________________________-.

And for the record, Ran didn't claim out of nowhere. I don't believe his claim though.

What.

Because his play has been really scummy and in a game with only two roles, it's really risky to claim a PR. I think he went for the safest claim as scum.

WHAT.

Actually, having Moth remind me that scum's best idea would be to claim a PR when put at L-1 makes me question my Ran vote. If Ran was claiming a PR like he did, it'd have been scummy as all holy hell. But :/...

Unvote for now. After tonight I'm gonna get a reread done with this game. Just don't make it too long for me guys.

I forgot. Why did Gord dislike me asking "What?" towards Moth but not you? I think you brought this up, and I think this may have been why.

Now that I think about it, I think its the fact that you were asking questions so much, since Gordito hates that. Other than that, I have no idea why.

Ding... ding... ding.

Damn it I skimmed. Will go back and reread this game. I promise.

 

[Shadow Moth]

I'll be gone today until evening. Don't expect any more from me than yesterday until tonight.

 

[Tandora]

The kittens have been stalked for days. They were growing tired of only getting 12 hours of sleep a day, which is really harsh when you're used to 20. Finally one of them fell to the ground and uttered that famous last phrase from Zombie movies, "Save yourselves".

But she didn't really mean it.


Vote Count:
Ranmaru (2): Joey, Shadow Moth
Shadow Moth(2): Swiss, Fynal
Gordito(2): Ranmaru, Sworddancer
Shadow Moth : J

Not Voting: Zen, Gordito

WITH 9 ALIVE, IT TAKES 5 TO LYNCH!

 

[#HBC | J]

I don't like that J has been pushing for me all this time and then switches to Moth because of that. May be legit, but has J ever spoken about Moth before?

Be quiet please.

Oh that. I have a theory on J's 'dislike' of me in every game. Before, he had always had me as null, hard to read. At first, I have seen him say "I don't like ran" when I only post TWO POSTS and am just beginning the game. I would think he was scum for trying to twist my words, but sometimes he isn't. So I'm like "WTF, J?" I don't really understand. Now, I feel as though he just does that to GET ME OUT OF THE WAY, for example, Soul Calibur. So now I feel as though he just is always null on me and always wants to lynch me because I might flip scum and it doesn't matter to him.

Quit speaking things that aren't true. Scummy play is scummy play and should be lynched for it, therefore I have absolutely no problem with you being lynched. I am not twisting your words. I don't lynch you and hope for the best. Just stop.

I’d be using POE with whatever scumreads I had at the moment. At the time I was voting Swords I didn’t really have much reads. My reasoning with the Sword’s vote was disagreeing with his reasoning. IE: I was saying he was wrong, but I said I liked the newb pressure nonetheless. I just wagoned for reads, like it or not.

Well my obvious answer is I didn't like it and that's why I was voting you. That's why others voted you as well and have found you suspicious Ranmaru. You also never explained your POE but instead went into talking about your Swords vote.

Basically, questions to everyone who thinks Moth is scum:

• Do you think Moth's reason was good to vote me, and do you think it was ok for him to put me at l-1?

I cut out all the irrelevant bits. Ranmaru your theory is nothing but that, a theory. It's also a theory that is incredibly flawed and filled with nothing but randomness almost that you just cannot substantiate. Most of your questions as well could not be answered honestly.

Yes, his reason was good and I don't mind you being put at L-1, let alone L-0.

 

[Dooms]

Moth's latest posts have been... really ****ty. Especially the two talking about PR stuff >_>;

Moth, why did you bring up the fact that Scum wouldn't want to claim a PR? It's very obvious they wouldn't want to do that in an open set up no matter what.

Nobody, but it sounds like that's what you're trying to argue.
What I saw your argument as is "You can't prove his claim is fake, therefore he's town because he claimed town."

If this isn't what you're saying you should probably correct me now.

Generalizing what J says into that sentence looks really bad considering that he has been on ranmaru a lot this game.

The last sentence makes me feel unsafe because its basically saying "If I'm wrong, just tell me and thats that!" like you're trying to avoid pressure from that statement in general.

Gord, I will ****ing smack you. Putting Ranmaru as less scummy for not claiming a PR is stupid as all hell. If a scummy feels he won't get lynched and can stay alive longer, why would he claim a power role instead of staying alive for his team, especially since there is no role that can kill him. Especially if he's the role blocker... I don't like your unvote at all honestly.

Ranmaru, Shadow Moth isn't a newbie at all. He stated this, since hes played 7 games. Derp.

I'm gonna re-read with two certain people in mind, and probably end up voting one of them over Ranmaru since Swiss is 100% right in that Ranmaru's play in general is scummy.

 

[Xivii]

Zen, you have stated support for my lynch. Why are you now back on Gord?

Nah I just wanted to see if you'd agree to it really.

 

[Dooms]

Sorry. Don't have a lot of time. Gotta check in with this and two other games, then gotta get ready to make it to a gig. Kinda rushing. If I skim over things, quoting things that I should take note of would help quite a bit.



I didn't think you were going for a lynch. I said it looked like you were setting up the easy Fynal lynch. I like you a bit more.

I don't like meta when it's overused, and when it's based on previous experience rather than sheer knowledge of the person. And you can't drive a point off of meta. It's like a bike. You can just use it as training wheels. But if you wanna learn how to ride a scum read, you gotta be able to take the training wheels off.



I cc.

Oh wait -_____________________________________-.



What.



WHAT.

Actually, having Moth remind me that scum's best idea would be to claim a PR when put at L-1 makes me question my Ran vote. If Ran was claiming a PR like he did, it'd have been scummy as all holy hell. But :/...

Unvote for now. After tonight I'm gonna get a reread done with this game. Just don't make it too long for me guys.





Ding... ding... ding.

Damn it I skimmed. Will go back and reread this game. I promise.

I HATE THIS POST.

Vote: Gordito

you're unvoting Ran, who you lead me to believe is your strongest Scum pick, for WIFOM and a bunch of bull *** first off.

Setting up easy Fynal lynch that early? Really? I don't buy it at all. Your reasons have changed on Swords so much, and it still looks like you were trying to force a lynch onto him. Using meta as a lead to your read is complete BS. I don't think I said that earlier, since I was a little confused by that statement as a whole, but now that its confirmed, you using Meta as a lead is complete and total Bull **** and I hate it fully.

-----------

I think Gord is going to be my lynch target for today if its not Ranmaru.

Won't mind a Moth lynch too much.

 

[Dooms]

...For some reason, I posted my previous post before this one. Forgot to cut and paste. Sorry. THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE BEFORE THE GORDITO VOTE POST!

----------

I think he's overreacting a little but I like that he called you out on the noob card before you pulled it.
A perfect win is a perfect win. You can't get a perfect win and then pull a noob card.
Though I do think his reaction is justified, I don't think your statement deserves a vote. Setting up for a noob card is not pulling it out, thus overreacting.

I like that he spotted it but I don't like how he reacted basically.
He's not scummy for it but I'll be watching him.

@Gord: I want to know what you think of the game so far and your current lynch candidate.

I like what he did, but I don't think its vote worthy, so I'm going to watch him because of over-reacting? Welp.

The fact that you like Swords calling out the noob card before Fynal pulled it, but don't like the fact that hes voting Fynal kinda leaves me baffled.

You are definitely misunderstanding something. Nobody said you were pulling a noob card yet, but you made a post that could be easily referenced back to if you decided to pull one later. And for the record, my definition of a perfect scum win is the same as yours.

@Gord: which of the two people you don't like would you rather lynch and why.

That makes way more sense.

Question at Gord makes me feel that he could be trying to fit into town instead of scum hunting, since Gord is obviously voting Sword at the time and Gord had doubt in Ranmaru being scum.

I'd rather Sword over Ran at this point. I have a more confident read on Sword scum, and what I have on Ran is more of a feel, if that makes sense .



Wait what?



They should listen cuz I'm a smart player, and should ESPECIALLY be more intent to listening because I'm not necessarily the best at convincing, unlike players like you, or Zen.

Swords seems to be very intent on letting people know that Fynal should be looked after in case he's playing the noob card (which I don't really see it being played, or being set up to be referred back to later on). It seems like he was try'na push for a relatively easy Fynal lynch... when there really isn't much of a case to support it. And plus I feel it's contradictory that he's attacking Fynal for what he says he is, when Moth can more easily be looked at for setting himself up in the future for bad play by calling it a "change in playstyle". It just bugs me.

Ran, I can't tell whether or not I dislike Ran cuz he's Ran, or cuz he's legit scummy. I don't like the way he hopped on the Sword vote. Plus, his questions seem so odd and still, the way he plays is just totally going to mindf*** town, and is anti town. No matter how much I've seen it from town Ran, I still can't see em as town. But I guess I'm giving myself time to feel out a read for his slot (btw Ran I swear to god if I get fourteen questions out of this paragraph I'm going to lick your big toe).

Btw your Moth vote is ********.

How come you don't think Fynal could possibly be setting up for a newb card, but you think Moth could be setting up for playstyle excuses? I don't get that at all ._., especially since Moth was asked how he was fixing his playstyle, but Fynal wasn't asked to describe his last game. Plus Fynal's word choice in that paragraph I've bolded several times makes it seem like he could be setting up for a newb card.

What is your read on me and J?

You know, scum has a tendency of "lying". Lying is when you don't tell the truth. Your actions scream you looking for Fynal cuz it'd be easier to lynch em. Plus, and I know I can't use this as legit evidence, but methinks Swordscum would probz wanna go for somebody like Fynal, who's never played a town game, cuz Swordscum wouldn't have the nerve to go after a better player. But yea, it still stands.



You're attacking Fynal under suspicion of setting up the noob card. Noob card's used to justify scummy play. MOTH can be seen as setting up the "new playstyle" card. He says he's try'na be more aggro. And with the same logic you're using for Fynal, Moth can justify any bad play on his part by saying lolnewplaystyle. Yet... you go after Fynal. It's really off to me man.

I feel you're trying to force the thought of Swords scum onto town instead of just thinking he's scum. Downplaying him by saying he'd go after the newer and worse(?) player when there are players in this game like Me and Ranmaru doesn't leave a good taste in my mouth at all. You're making BS reasons for Swords scum.

The thing is that I can't conceive you looking at Fynal as a hard target, because I don't see how you can have a feel for his alignment. If he's town, he's never played a town game, making him a legit noob. You don't trust that town will get a feel for his alignment and won't just let em slip by? You DON'T even have a feel for his alignment, I'm sure of that.



Which is why I'm not going to use it as any argument, rather, a lead.

Explain your second line please.

I feel that the second line is trying to downplay Swords again in an attempt to force the scum read onto town.

I didn't like that he tried to force a wagon on Swords, I thought the vote was fine but I didn't like the way he tried to blatently force more votes on the wagon.


Well Swiss' #116 certainly didn't help my view of him now that he's made that post, but I think Swords is at least going in the right direction with his stance, I think he's just taking it a little too far.

To answer your last two question's specifically:
Swords is pointing things out that I like and think need to be pointed out.
Swiss is tunneling and I haven't seen a reason why yet. That attack on my joke post is completely unwarranted.

@Swiss: No I've never been tunneled before and I'm not even mad bro.

The fact that you're talking about Swiss being scummy so much doesn't settle well with me if you don't have a vote out there at all.

This looks like a declaration of tunneling. Tunneling is scummy.


Try his #53
And he's not my top dislike, I said Swiss was. But not anymore.

And you think one fluff post in RVS is worthy of a vote?


Not liking someone because they're trying to wagon a person who you don't think deserves a vote is not a BS reason to not like them. A vote is one thing but asking for a wagon is threatening a lynch.


I don't like it when you do it either. Your argument is full of holes.


Wat. Explain. I really don't like you right now, but I also don't like Fynal.
Who I vote depends on your answer.

Tunneling is not scummy.

Wait wait wait.

Where did Fynal come from? Did he just randomly replace Swiss?

Don't understand this at all. Don't like it, either.

So let's see what been buzzin.

Oh wait I get it S = shadow... so Smoth = ...



It doesn't say anything to me atm. The "setting up the noob card" will only really be scummy when it's brought up in a later time. If I was in Sword's position and saw that as a setup for the noob card, I'd wait for Fynal to use to actually USE the noob card to call em out, and say that that post was a setup for a noob card being used. Noob card wasn't used. And that's why it's offsetting to me.





Watchu get from this?

One of your reasons against him was because you couldn't see the newb card being set up for, yet when you realize that it could be set up for in that way, you ignore that part completely and change it to "He didn't want for Fynal to actually use it." ...

Welp.

Unvote

Swords is looking a bit better, but I still wanna keep an eye on em. I GUESS I can see a town Sword voting Fynal for reaction fishing... but I'm keeping an eye out for em. Still my second scum pick. But Vote: Ranmaru is looking much more out of it.

How's this guy not have more than just J as a vote? His reasoning for finding J to be "possible scum" is almost entirely grounded by the fact that J never likes em in any games they're in together if I read this shiz right. I don't get it. He says my vote on Sword was forced... but he was on that wagon, and is copping out by saying "lolpressure". Well I'm claiming my vote on Sword to be pressure, so now any scumminess that you found, Ran, is nullified. Like that reasoning bro? And then he brings up me saying Swiss' moth vote was ********. The only reason he finds that scummy is cuz he's saying Moth is scummier. Me saying that isn't scummy. Get that through your head.

...You could see town Sword voting Fynal for reaction fishing, and his Fynal vote is the only reason with any force for why you think he's scum, but he's still your second pick?

Ran's play in this game is more garbage than in any game I've ever played with him, any game I've read with him in it, and any game I've hydra'd with him. I agree with your second paragraph completely.

Man evening is the only time I'm motivated to post in mafia. Anyone else know that feel?


I don't like it. I'll get to why I don't like his wagon later in this post but I don't like that he pushed for a wagon and then just kinda backed off and said "well I never meant to lynch him."


Honestly I totally forgot that it was 5 to lynch. In my head I was going "three votes? no biggie." Most of the games I've been playing in have been larger, taking 6 or 7 to lynch.


Asking for a bandwagon IS asking for a lynch. You say you didn't want to lynch him but you wanted to bandwagon him for pressure, right? Why does a bandwagon put pressure on someone. Because they're going to get lynched.
If you ask for a bandwagon and then say "BTW I don't really want to lynch you, just answer some questions when you get to L-2 and we'll all unvote." then you're not saying ****. There's not even any point in voting because there's no threat of a lynch. This is why I didn't like what I referred to in the response to the first quote.


My joke post was posted in response to the original post 33 minutes after it was made. It was a quick RVS response to a meaningless RVS vote.
My next post was later that night at around 1:40am EST. Not even 12 hours after my previous post. I not only responded to the question asked, I asked someone else a question. And it's not exactly like I hadn't been saying anything the whole time. This point is moot. Drop it.


Sorry I didn't have a solid read 1 IRL day into the game. I don't like taking solid stances on people I have null tells on. Especially early D1.


Same as above.

Fynal and Ran are scum in my eyes. I dislike Ran a lot more than Fynal. He seems to be hopping all over the place and completely inconsistent. He's getting my vote.

Vote: Ranmaru.

I'd also like to see more from Swiss. He hasn't exactly improved in my eyes since I last mentioned him.
@Swiss: What are your top scumpicks. Between me and Ran who would you rather see die toDay?

I'm going to explain wagoning to you, since thats not what it is at all.

A wagon is basically a bunch of people voting the same person for different reasons, correct? There are multiple reasons as to why someone would jump on a wagon.

1)They think the person is scummy.
2)The person has been inactive or lurking, and they need information from said person.
3)To gain reads and information from the player being wagoned due to having the person as a null

Three examples. Only one example would think that the person should be lynched. I do agree that a wagon is always threatening a lynch though, because getting anyone to L-2 or L-1 can technically get them lynched no matter what reason you have for it.

This post doesn't make me think scum. I just wanted to point out that wagoning isn't always asking for a lynch or anything of that sort.

Tunneling itself isn't scummy but if you're tunneling you are closing your mind off to other options and views which can only hinder town. One scummy post does not make someone scum but people being a certain level of scummy makes them scum to me. Claiming out of nowhere is null. Town can do it and really help town or hurt them. Depends on the situation and the role being claimed. As such, claiming cop out of nowhere is also null.

And for the record, Ran didn't claim out of nowhere. I don't believe his claim though.

Am I scum?

Because his play has been really scummy and in a game with only two roles, it's really risky to claim a PR. I think he went for the safest claim as scum.

This looks SO bad. You're stating the REALLY obvious in the fact that claiming a PR in an open set up will only clear townies and get you lynched quicker. I don't like it at all. If you're going to try to confirm him scum through obvious stuff, then don't even bother please!

You definitely just made a whole bunch of posts about his claim but I'd rather lynch Ran toDay and argue about this toMorrow.

Are you calling him scummy based on his latest posts? If so, I don't like it at all.

 

[Fynal]

bleh we've had 2 family birthdays in 3 days and now my grandparents are here, things are kinda hectic. i'll read and post more as soon as i can, hopefully tonight

 

[Xivii]

Well I guess I caught up. Though I skipped over half of Joey's posts.

Joey town
J town
Fynal town
Swiss town
Zen town
Smoth goober leaning town
Ran goober leaning town
Sword goober leaning scum
Gord scum

Ran's play is very confusing. My initial read on him was town. His sudden switch on Sword is the only thing I don't like. At any rate, I wouldn't be down for lynching him today at this point. His confidence in Gord being scum leads me to believe they could be buddies however.

Sword has said some good things but very awkward and probably scum. Though him being scum buddies with Gord is a bit of a throw off so I'm probably wrong about one of them.

I feel no town in Gord. I agree with Joey that his unvote on Ran is off. He also seems very careful in the way he posts. You know not all happy-go-lucky as he usually is. What else... Oh yeah his push on Sword was so fake.

I don't see why people find Smoth scummy at all. Him saying that he didn't believe Ran is being taken in the wrong way and really didn't warrant J's vote. And then Joey is misconstruing that whole thing like Smoth initiated the conversation when really he was just responding to J's questioning.

Aren't you guys worried that there is a VT claim up in the place?

What?

I don't want a possible PR to be run up, but J seems to have a good reason to be moving towards

What?

 

[ranmaru]

How exactly is Swords scummy and awkward to you here? He evaded me in RG, so I admit it can be a possibility. I don't find him scummy though.(He seems to fence sit as scum, and doesn't like being scum therefore won't try as hard as if he was town)

What is wrong with my confidence of Gord being scum, Zen? His vote on Swords was pretty fake.

Zen, can you explain the RIGHT way it should be taken? [Moth's disbelief of my claim]

I mean that aren't you guys afraid of running up a PR? Also, since you guys have my claim, it'll be easier for scum to have an idea who the pr's may be.

Or were you "What?"-ing to the J part?

 

[Xivii]

How exactly is Swords scummy and awkward to you here? He evaded me in RG, so I admit it can be a possibility. I don't find him scummy though.(He seems to fence sit as scum, and doesn't like being scum therefore won't try as hard as if he was town)

This meta is no good as he is aware of it, meaning he can simply alter his play. By awkward I am mostly refering to his whole Fynal pressure bit.

What is wrong with my confidence of Gord being scum, Zen? His vote on Swords was pretty fake.

That's no way for town to "know" he is scum at this point. Only scum or cop can "know" someone's alignment. Yes, one can be confident in their belief, but yours is a little too strong.

Zen, can you explain the RIGHT way it should be taken? [Moth's disbelief of my claim]

He wasn't discrediting your claim. J took it that Smoth was specifically targeting your claim. When really he was saying that you are scum and therefore doesn't believe your claim. Not that he doesn't believe your claim so you're therefore scum.

I mean that aren't you guys afraid of running up a PR? Also, since you guys have my claim, it'll be easier for scum to have an idea who the pr's may be.

Or were you "What?"-ing to the J part?

You're correct and thank you for clarifying. To answer your question, no.








What do people think about no lynching and having cop investigate one of the scummies?

 

[#HBC | J]

Zen, you feel no town whatsoever in Gord, why aren't you voting him then?

NL, we aren't NL'ing D1 that's just silly. Who cares about the cop when we should be the ones getting rid of the people we find are scummy.

 

[Dooms]

Agreeing with J in that we're not no lynching. Its simply not an option if we have legit scummy people.

 

[Xivii]

J, no reason at all.

 

[ranmaru]

I'm fine with Gord being lynched. If not, then I'm fine with a NL because Moth doesn't seem that scummy to me.

 

[Swiss]

Ran, you want either, and only either; Gord lynch, No Lynch?

Which would you prefer? Would you be willing to lynch a player other than Moth/Gord if myself and Zen both felt strongly towards their scum alignment? Or are you only willing to follow lynches you yourself feel are beneficial?

 

[Swiss]

Oh, ignore my new avvy.

I can assure you a picture of an evil domo-kun in no way pertains to any sort of alignment, imagined or otherwise, in any games of on going mafia.

Signed, Swisaiiiii

 

[Swiss]

Well I was thinking that newb scum wouldn't even vote late, because I'm sure they'd have their partner yelling at them in the qt NOT TO. Their instinct is to survive, therefore they wouldn't do stupid things like I would.

This has the pre-requisite that Moth would 1) Have a partner who is decent as scum 2) Listen to him and 3) Have been online to give him advice.

Also, why are you classifying Moth as newb-scum? He has played several games, even if none of them were as scum, he would have gained knowledge in how to play scum, what to and not to do. As he'll have seen seven games worth of scum being targetted and lynched. Also, because a player has not played scum before, does not mean they will be newb-scum. Look at me in Newbie 6.

Anyways the Uber lynch was the important point relating to why I think Moth may not really be scum here. He just seems like influenced newb town.

A few things can discredit this:

• He can be paired with another newb, therefore him + Fynal. (Because he is the only other inexperienced person in this game) This doesn't seem right because I find Fynal's push to be pro-town. I know Fynal has messed up with L-1 needing to claim or w/e in the past, but he didn't quite get it because his partners were also inexperienced. This also doesn't seem right because Fynal has experienced the L-1 being bad before, so I'm sure he'd deff tell his possible buddy NOT to vote someone at l-1. So I don't think this would be the case.
  
• Another thing that can discredit my theory, is possibly his scum partner doesn't like to sync too much to create the perfect distance. Basically the "I'm not talking much in the qt, just do what you do and if you start to get scummy I'll bus you" this way scum can play naturally and don't seem as 'fake'. And to hide connections. No plan, just play it by ear. This essentially could make sense as to why Moth would be making newb mistakes as newb scum regarding l-1 and claims. I have never seen a play like this, though, ever. Most Qt's I have seen have been riddled with discussion. Might be possible with conservative players.
  
• Another reason that can discredit my theory on this is if Moth had a damn good reason to put me at L-1, therefore making it pro-town to vote me at l-1, and not getting him heat = Survival because it was pro-town. What did get him heat was him disbelieving the claim. I find it hard to believe he wouldn't ask about that as newb scum. The bad part is I agree with J's reasoning as to why Moth is pretty scummy, for trying to force "Well he's scummy so that's why I disbelieve the claim".

Basically, questions to everyone who thinks Moth is scum:

• Do you think Moth is paired with another inexperienced mafia player, if he is scum?
• Do you think he is paired with an *experienced mafia player who likes to play solo to hide connections and play by ear? If so, who would you think that player would be?
• Do you think Moth's reason was good to vote me, and do you think it was ok for him to put me at l-1?
• If Moth flips scum, who would you think was his buddy? If he flips town, who is scum?
• Could Moth have been just really confident and influenced newb town? (Regarding him disbelieving my claim) **Joey need your meta help here plz

*Experienced as in more than 2 games played overall. (This excludes Moth because he is the subject of the question and also excludes Fynal because this is his second game)

You covered most of what I just said, which makes me feel pretty good about you right now. Teaches me to go give advice before reading the entire post.

Likely scum. I'd be happy to lynch one, ideally Moth, on the provision we cop the other.

I cc.

Oh wait -_____________________________________-.

Since no-one else decided to bring this up.

Are you CC'ing just the vanilla, or the character too? Since you imply his claim is impossible to justify with the

"Oh wait -_____________________________________-"

Why do you not think the character claim is reasonable?

Wait, Zen, can you walk me through why you feel Swords is scum, also tell me why Smoth leans town. I forget if you've already said the latter, but let's get it out again just in case.


More later. Breakfast time.

 

[Swiss]

[*]Do you think Moth is paired with another inexperienced mafia player, if he is scum?
[*]Do you think he is paired with an *experienced mafia player who likes to play solo to hide connections and play by ear? If so, who would you think that player would be?
[*]Do you think Moth's reason was good to vote me, and do you think it was ok for him to put me at l-1?
[*]If Moth flips scum, who would you think was his buddy? If he flips town, who is scum?
[*]Could Moth have been just really confident and influenced newb town? (Regarding him disbelieving my claim) **Joey need your meta help here plz
[/LIST]

1) Skip
2) Skip, skip
3) As answered, no
4) His scum flip implicates no-one
5) No

 

[ranmaru]

Ran, you want either, and only either; Gord lynch, No Lynch?

Which would you prefer? Would you be willing to lynch a player other than Moth/Gord if myself and Zen both felt strongly towards their scum alignment? Or are you only willing to follow lynches you yourself feel are beneficial?

Which ever I feel is beneficial. I know my reads tend to be bad so I'm willing to compromise only if I am convinced.

Currently I have:

Strong town read on Fynal
Town read on Swords
Null read on Joey (This is the first time I bring this up)
Null leaning town read on Zen (Because I did like his setting up alliances and such)
Null on you. (I do see some pro active ness from you I just didn't like that earlier question to fynal)

That leaves

Gord
Moth
J

Joey is a possibility, but I have seen alot from him and I'm willing to re-evaluate my read on him. (I was also a bit too lazy to respond to his post to me, I will get to it) Anyways, I was thinking maybe he was just attacking me for doing something he strongly feels is bad. I kind of dropped that because it wouldn't help in finding scum.

Well I'd rather the cop use their best judgement. It's better to have a list of scummies from them to choose from, that way scum can't nk their TARGET and waste an investigation.

If Gord or Moth is lynched, I'd say that one of [J, Moth, Gord, Joey] is copped. (Gord/Moth is interchangeable because one of them may be lynched)

I mean it's up to the cop. If he wants to try to do that, or try to cop lynch bait instead.

Your thoughts on DA LEEST?

 

[ranmaru]

Oh, ignore my new avvy.

I can assure you a picture of an evil domo-kun in no way pertains to any sort of alignment, imagined or otherwise, in any games of on going mafia.

Signed, Swisaiiiii

ScumSWISS forgot that he was scum in a Domo v Cat game, so he had to point out his scumslip avi change.

 

[ranmaru]

Also, I guess Moth seemed like a newb to me because he seems so fence sitty, and doesn't really put his neck out there. He doesn't get in the fray. When I see someone afraid to dab their toes in the pool, I think they just emerged from the kiddy pool.

 

[Swiss]

Which ever I feel is beneficial. I know my reads tend to be bad so I'm willing to compromise only if I am convinced.

Currently I have:

Strong town read on Fynal
Town read on Swords
Null read on Joey (This is the first time I bring this up)
Null leaning town read on Zen (Because I did like his setting up alliances and such)
Null on you. (I do see some pro active ness from you I just didn't like that earlier question to fynal)

That leaves

Gord
Moth
J

Joey is a possibility, but I have seen alot from him and I'm willing to re-evaluate my read on him. (I was also a bit too lazy to respond to his post to me, I will get to it) Anyways, I was thinking maybe he was just attacking me for doing something he strongly feels is bad. I kind of dropped that because it wouldn't help in finding scum.

Well I'd rather the cop use their best judgement. It's better to have a list of scummies from them to choose from, that way scum can't nk their TARGET and waste an investigation.

If Gord or Moth is lynched, I'd say that one of [J, Moth, Gord, Joey] is copped. (Gord/Moth is interchangeable because one of them may be lynched)

I mean it's up to the cop. If he wants to try to do that, or try to cop lynch bait instead.

Your thoughts on DA LEEST?

Can you quote me my baiting, please.

Da leest meaning the list? It took me two rounds of sitting here, frowning to realise what you meant (yes, gears again!).

I fail to see why J is on there, though I do not class him as town, I don't see why you class him as scum. What actions of his made you put him on there? Who will Moth's scum flip indicate? Who would Gord's, and J's? If Moth and Gord were both town, would J be 100% scum?

 

[Swiss]

ScumSWISS forgot that he was scum in a Domo v Cat game, so he had to point out his scumslip avi change.

:wheredidiputmytrollfcejpg:

Also, I guess Moth seemed like a newb to me because he seems so fence sitty, and doesn't really put his neck out there. He doesn't get in the fray. When I see someone afraid to dab their toes in the pool, I think they just emerged from the kiddy pool.

The only person he took a hard stance against was me because I pressured him. Consider this; do you think he'd have the same hate for me had I pressured someone else? No. Why not? Because he has his own survival at heart. We don't see the exasperation of a pressured newbie, which we've seen many times, we see the straight up OMGUS of someone who is determined to stake some moral high gound.

 

[ranmaru]

I keep forgetting multi quoting. I'm sure Joey and J knows what I mean.

Also, Fynal, if you could give any one piece of advice to the Seer, would it be to claim immediately and be protected by the Doc for an impossible scum kill, or to stay alive as long possible? Bearing in mind that the Seer sanity is not known, do you agree that we should treat seer results (both innocent and guilty) with extreme caution?

Can you quote me my baiting, please.

Da leest meaning the list? It took me two rounds of sitting here, frowning to realise what you meant (yes, gears again!).

I fail to see why J is on there, though I do not class him as town, I don't see why you class him as scum. What actions of his made you put him on there? Who will Moth's scum flip indicate? Who would Gord's, and J's? If Moth and Gord were both town, would J be 100% scum?

It is above.

Ahahah, yes that was what I meant. : D I approve of Gears.

No he's null to me. He is the most null to me and it would help to have a cop investigate one of them because it would help in POE'ing later on. I'll show you:

Fynal
Swords
Zen
Swiss
Joey
J
Moth
Gord

So I just picked the last four. (it'd become three because of a lynch)

Leaving it small would increase the chance of a cop hitting a scum instead of just clearing a strong town read.

• Moth Scum flip = Swords because he FoS'd him for being too conservative out of no where, essentially saying "Hey buddy, you are slipping up so I'll FoS you to make it seem like I am concerned". Gord because of his "Oh Swiss your Moth vote is ********". I don't think Fynal nor me would be implicated because We were the first two votes on Moth and Moth didn't particurlarly do anything worthy of bussing. That is all I can think of.
  
• Gord scum flip = Me because I was pretty confident in his fakeness. I don't think much else, don't see much connections to him.
  
• J scum flip = Don't know.
  
• If Moth and Gord were town? I'd re-read my read on Swords. (I'm starting to doubt it now >_< ) I just noticed he hasn't done much but I think it's because he's V/la today?

:wheredidiputmytrollfcejpg:



The only person he took a hard stance against was me because I pressured him. Consider this; do you think he'd have the same hate for me had I pressured someone else? No. Why not? Because he has his own survival at heart. We don't see the exasperation of a pressured newbie, which we've seen many times, we see the straight up OMGUS of someone who is determined to stake some moral high gound.

Oh, I need to re-read where he took a hard stance against you.

Wait, you have played with him before, right? (I don't know if you said you did or not) Why exactly did you bring up the topic of tunneling with him? (If that was when he took a stance against you)

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Back from v/la. Have nearly 100 post to catch up on, so give me a little bit here.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

hmmm thats interesting. I did an iso on zen, his posts boil down to something like this: questions about hypothetical scumbuds, then a bunch of "im null on X" statements and friendmaking, then recently a bunch of opinions on who he wants lynched. He hasn't posted any reasoning at all anywhere as far as i can tell, just what his opinion is. I havn't played with zen before, i dunno if this is just how he plays, but its weird.

Good, I kinda noticed this myself, and since you are pushing Moth for more or less a similar reason, I wanted to see if you would pick up on it as well.

I myself do not really know how Zen plays. However, I don't think not knowing meta should degrade us from possible lynches. Haven't read all the way through yet, but as of this quoted post, Zen is starting to look like a possible avenue to go down toDay (along with Gord).

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

I'm vanilla townie. Can has cheezburger cat. :3

>.> <.<

Okay, even though you were at L_1, it was probably still too early to claim, but oh well.

New reads:

Scum:

Gord
Joey
Moth

Boy oh boy Ran you get new reads at the drop of a hat.