Kittens versus Domo-kuns - Game over, who won?

[ranmaru]

I'm not lying:

"Not liking someone because they're trying to wagon a person who you don't think deserves a vote is not a BS reason to not like them. A vote is one thing but asking for a wagon is threatening a lynch."

 

[Dooms]

Oh. Second part of Ranmaru.

#180: Gord has it 100% right for the first part. Based on what you posted, you have him as scum because he thinks you're scum in every game. I don't know how true the last part is, and I don't really buy that, but I do think you're scummy. I think Gord is kind of reaching here.

#166: I do agree that Gord had bad reasons for being on Sword, but that doesn't make him more scummy than you, and that doesn't make you look any better.

 

[Fynal]

Shadow Moth's post responding to the vote on him in early game was nothing but RVS and a joke, and thats nothing but a null tell. In case anyone is wondering, the inside joke is from Skype mafia, where a scummy was asked to role claim, and he said "Uhhh... Town", got lynched, and flipped scum. But anyways, any vote on him for this is complete BS and stupid.

Ran did try to start a wagon on Sword early game, so the reason for Ran finding him scummy is true.

I don't see where he is saying "hes not worth attacking, i'll be watching though" in the post you quoted in #121

to me it was kinda scummish because I felt like RVS was ending and he didn't post anything for a while concerning the content. I also never thought or said this alone was worth a vote

he didn't, i was referring to 2 of his previous posts:

I have an RVS vote on J but I can go ahead and unvote that.
Right now, my least favorite player is Ranmaru but honestly from what I've heard about him I'm willing to give him a bit more time so I can get a more accurate read on him.
After Ran is Swiss.
Besides obviously not liking his vote on me for my joke, his stances on some things seem off. Like J's stance against sword.

Haven't seen anything I'd consider vote-worthy yet though.

I think he's overreacting a little but I like that he called you out on the noob card before you pulled it.
A perfect win is a perfect win. You can't get a perfect win and then pull a noob card.
Though I do think his reaction is justified, I don't think your statement deserves a vote. Setting up for a noob card is not pulling it out, thus overreacting.

I like that he spotted it but I don't like how he reacted basically.
He's not scummy for it but I'll be watching him.

@Gord: I want to know what you think of the game so far and your current lynch candidate.

the bolded is what i'm referring to. My wording could prolly have been better, but the point is he's blatantly putting off actually stating a solid read when he could be taking a stance, and this strikes me as scummy.


ok i am REALLY going to go to bed now, i'll deal with ran when im less tired

 

[Dooms]

But a wagon usually means "threatening a lynch". Wagon generally means getting a lot of votes onto one reason, which means they're getting close to a lynch. No matter what way you say it, its threatening a lynch.

@Fynal: OHHH.

Both of those are legit imo. "He's not scummy for it but I'll be watching him" is basically an IGMEOY (I got my eye on you) thing, which would make since if he was suspicious of his actions, but that was the only thing he found scummy from him.

The Ran thing makes sense since Ranmaru is considered a worse player in general, even though I don't agree on it. If a player generally looks scummy, then it'll take time for them to be a legit scum read or a "playing the usual, town" read. Its obvious Shadow Moth has shown different thoughts about that now, so I don't consider that a good reason to wagon him.

 

[ranmaru]

Oh. Second part of Ranmaru.

#180: Gord has it 100% right for the first part. Based on what you posted, you have him as scum because he thinks you're scum in every game. I don't know how true the last part is, and I don't really buy that, but I do think you're scummy. I think Gord is kind of reaching here.

#166: I do agree that Gord had bad reasons for being on Sword, but that doesn't make him more scummy than you, and that doesn't make you look any better.

Whoa whoa not at all lol. Zen asked if Gord or J were more likely to flip scum, and I said Gord more likely than J. I didn't say J was more likely to flip scum, because I always think he is scum for trying to say that he dislikes my play without really saying why in the beginning, but then he isn't scum, so I don't get why he really does that. I just felt it scummy that he totally left the Sword's wagon for me, shows that he doesn't really think Swords may be scummy. That is why I had him as my third scum pick. But I have him as null now.

I'm not trying to make myself look better, I'm trying to find scum. Now if I flipped town, what would that make you think? What if Gord flipped town?

Also, my actions that you find scummy, why do you think I would have done that as scum? How would that have benefited me? Why wouldn't it benefit me as town?

Joey, what do you think of the people who didn't wagon Swords and Moth?

 

[ranmaru]

But it seems from Moth's pov that I was asking for a lynch, and not simply "more votes". Do you disagree with me on this?

 

[Dooms]

If you flipped town, then my reads would not change, since you have been playing badly enough to where the votes and reasons on you are legit. I would look at different places obviously, and go after Gord probably, but a town flip on you won't change any of my reads at all.

Ran, if you don't say that in the first place, then how do you expect gord not to assume that you think he's scum for thinking you're scummy in every game? After re-reading it a few times, I realize what you're saying, but its still really easy to mistake it for reasons for J scum when you take forever to give any.

You're supposed to defend yourself if you're town to try and help us avoid a mislynch (aka you).

It's not that they don't benefit you as town/scum, its that they don't benefit the town, which is why you should be lynched. If you really want to know though, voting moth the way you did could be a way to lynch someone easily to avoid pressure on yourself, since 3-4 others think that he's scummy. Not giving reasons until asked can help hide connections between you and other people, especially if you're never asked for them. I don't know how either of those could benefit any town player.

The fact that they did or didn't wagon them doesn't make them scum or town in any way, shape, or form. I stated how I feel about everyone in this game. Everything there is the same except Fynal, which is now leaning more town since one of my points on him was nullified with him simply missing the post.

 

[ranmaru]

Ok.

I was un-clear, my bad.

I am defending myself. My actions were risky, but I do think the town has benefitted with discussion and stances. I disagree, I even responded to your reasons for it being bad for town, yet you never responded to refute it.

Trying to start a wagon so early in the game is not what benefits the town for two reasons:

Its probably not going to gain anything for the town, since its so early and you don't have enough reason to wagon him anyways.

Sword knows very well that as long as he responds somewhat well, then nothing bad will happen to him. As scum, he could easily make up a statement and the wagon would be shut down early because of the lack of information on him.

I thought it was fine for an RVS ice breaker. Course you won't have much reason, but you'll get others to join on possibly. You get stances. You get reasons to back those stances, therefore you get info.

Here is the thing, Swords was already being attacked from early RVS. He was already being pressured, so if a Wagon starts, others might join. Others won't. So you'll have to think why others didn't join, and why others did. I didn't really get a scum vibe from his early vote, plus it prodded discussion.

"Knowing that he can respond well will keep him safe" is a possibility, so you can't really gain a read from that. So I don't really follow on the second reason.

Again you are giving possibilities about what I could have done as scum, that doesn't mean I was doing that.

I don't see why you SEE it is bad to wagon. I feel as though you are trying to force "Wagoning is bad, so X is scum for wagoning". Now, please respond to my quote that I just brought up.

 

[Dooms]

Do you know how easy it is to get bad stances from a wagon in RVS? Scum can easily manipulate a wagon on them early game because they KNOW they're not going to get lynched for it since its so early. Trying to wagon on page 2 isn't going to help at all. I'm not saying you're scum for wagoning specifically, and wagoning is not a scum tactic as a whole. However, wagoning really early in the game doesn't help town in any way, shape, or form, since scum can abuse it REALLY easily.

For example: I'm scum. You wagon me Page 2 like you did swords. I get 3 votes on me. For the sake of anything, I'll say that it's Ryker, July, and Red Ryu in that order. 9 person game. Since it's so early, all I have to say is that "Red Ryu jumped on my wagon without any reasons and put me at L-2, so that makes him scummy. I also don't like *insert player here* because they have yet to post content" and bam, you're pretty much off of me unless I have posted any legit scum tells so far.

@ "that doesn't mean I was doing that": But I think you're scum and they line up, so maybe I think that you were, especially since thats exactly what it looked like.

 

[ranmaru]

First, it would be pretty lucky to get a scum in an RVS wagon. Simple, in this size of a game, either a scum would jump on for town cred, or stay off to blame the wagoners. Scum usually bus early or late, because that would be when they would get maximum cred. So I don't see what would matter if you waggoned a town or scum. If the person acted like you say, that would be more reason to doubt his alignment. I don't see why early wagonning is bad. Better to wagon early than later, because later you'll have enough info to go off of.

I mean, what else would you do in the RVS besides wagon?

Yet I never voted Moth to avoid PRESSURE at all. I wasn't being voted at all, Swords was. Who do you think I was trying to hide connections from, then?

 

[Dooms]

No it wouldn't. If it was early to the point where we don't have stances, then what else do you expect from a person in either alignment? It's too early in the game to have legit reads, and they have little to no information to work with at all in general except holy **** they're getting wagoned. Wagoning later means you get legit information, since they can actually call people scummy and be serious about it, and its harder for scum to hide themselves in that situation.

Ask questions? You don't have to wagon in RVS.

I'm done talking about mechanics though, since you're not going to change my opinion on this with "What else would you do in RVS besides wagon".

If you're talking about recent game, multiple people were voting Shadow Moth, so it would be easy to hide yourself within that, and you not giving reasons can help you hide connections between you and moth if he flips town, since your vote on him is weak without reasons.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

...Nevermind @ Fynal. I missed his post completely. He just missed the question!

Unvote
Vote: Ranmaru

I feel that Ranmaru is a better option than Gord, simply because he hasn't been backing up his votes or claims until asked why, while Gord has.

@Ran: You voted Moth because of him playing safe and him calling you scum for bad reasons. You never said what the "bad reasons" were, so I'm assuming it was OMGUS, which makes you scummy.

You said two people were not town, and J was probably not town. Lol. It's fine to have more than two scum reads, but calling two people not town and a third person probably not town when theres only two scum makes you seem way too sure about your picks.

So what's your read on Fynal now, and what do you make of Fynal v Moth?

Btw

FoS Moth

You are actually being too conservative with your stances. We aren't going to get anywhere with the "it's not scummy enough to pursue so I'll just keep an eye on him" mentality.

@Gord: I still wait for your responses.

@Fynal: What's your read on Zen?

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

@Joey: Btw, in case you're wondering, I'm asking for your read on Fynal so soon after his vote because 190 seems to implies that it has changed (at least enough to vote Ran instead).

 

[Fynal]

bleh. ran is scummy but ran is always scummy, making me kinda hesitant. I have an idea though. Gord also scummish but not as much as Moth to me.

FoS Moth

You are actually being too conservative with your stances. We aren't going to get anywhere with the "it's not scummy enough to pursue so I'll just keep an eye on him" mentality.

thank you! i'd actually accept a blatant null as his read, but the way he puts it just looks like he's trying to be ready to agree with anyone (which is scummy)

@Fynal: What's your read on Zen?

i have a null townish sort of feeling but no evidence, actually ill look into it

 

[Fynal]

hmmm thats interesting. I did an iso on zen, his posts boil down to something like this: questions about hypothetical scumbuds, then a bunch of "im null on X" statements and friendmaking, then recently a bunch of opinions on who he wants lynched. He hasn't posted any reasoning at all anywhere as far as i can tell, just what his opinion is. I havn't played with zen before, i dunno if this is just how he plays, but its weird.

 

[Fynal]

@zen: your opinions on joey and swords?

 

[Shadow Moth]

Man evening is the only time I'm motivated to post in mafia. Anyone else know that feel?

@Shadow Moth: iirc, you didn't like ran because he wanted to wagon->lynch swords. What do you think of this statement? do you believe it? does it change your view on ran?

I don't like it. I'll get to why I don't like his wagon later in this post but I don't like that he pushed for a wagon and then just kinda backed off and said "well I never meant to lynch him."

Did you see Moth say anything while his wagon grew? He didn't say much.

Honestly I totally forgot that it was 5 to lynch. In my head I was going "three votes? no biggie." Most of the games I've been playing in have been larger, taking 6 or 7 to lynch.

But it seems from Moth's pov that I was asking for a lynch, and not simply "more votes". Do you disagree with me on this?

Asking for a bandwagon IS asking for a lynch. You say you didn't want to lynch him but you wanted to bandwagon him for pressure, right? Why does a bandwagon put pressure on someone. Because they're going to get lynched.
If you ask for a bandwagon and then say "BTW I don't really want to lynch you, just answer some questions when you get to L-2 and we'll all unvote." then you're not saying ****. There's not even any point in voting because there's no threat of a lynch. This is why I didn't like what I referred to in the response to the first quote.

to me it was kinda scummish because I felt like RVS was ending and he didn't post anything for a while concerning the content. I also never thought or said this alone was worth a vote

My joke post was posted in response to the original post 33 minutes after it was made. It was a quick RVS response to a meaningless RVS vote.
My next post was later that night at around 1:40am EST. Not even 12 hours after my previous post. I not only responded to the question asked, I asked someone else a question. And it's not exactly like I hadn't been saying anything the whole time. This point is moot. Drop it.

You are actually being too conservative with your stances. We aren't going to get anywhere with the "it's not scummy enough to pursue so I'll just keep an eye on him" mentality.

Same as above.

Fynal and Ran are scum in my eyes. I dislike Ran a lot more than Fynal. He seems to be hopping all over the place and completely inconsistent. He's getting my vote.

Vote: Ranmaru.

I'd also like to see more from Swiss. He hasn't exactly improved in my eyes since I last mentioned him.
@Swiss: What are your top scumpicks. Between me and Ran who would you rather see die toDay?

 

[ranmaru]

I'm vanilla townie. Can has cheezburger cat. :3

 

[ranmaru]

New reads:

Scum:

Gord
Joey
Moth

 

[ranmaru]

One more thing: I think Swiss was rolefishing from his first post.

 

[Swiss]

 

[Swiss]

That was more @ you claiming than me rolefishing. I forget if I was or not. But I deny all knowledge of it anyway.

Why is Joey scum?

Just as an FYI - it takes a dumb ****ing post to make me stop playing gears and actually post at this time.

 

[ranmaru]

I was l-1.

 

[Swiss]

Like, spectacularly dumb.

 

[ranmaru]

Viewing the thread while playing Gears. Good idea sherlock.

 

[Swiss]

Viewing the thread while playing Gears. Good idea sherlock.

 

[ranmaru]

Joey is scum because he is trying to say that he doesn't think I'm scum for wagoning, but instead is for lynching me because he thinks town will be hurt by it.

 

[ranmaru]

Btw you can deny if you were rolefishing or not but I'm sure the rest of the town wouldn't forget about it.

 

[#HBC | J]

I have a post coming and since I really would like to talk rather then be shut up by a quick hammer.

Unvote

It's going right back mind you when I post later.

 

[Swiss]

Ran, in the nicest possible way - you're so dumb I find it physically painful to read your posts.

 

[ranmaru]

Swiss, why don't you actually post some content?

 

[Swiss]

BECAUSE I'M PLAYING GEARS.

Sweartogodiwanttopunchyouinthemouth

 

[ranmaru]

Well this isn't helping. Go play Gears.

 

[Swiss]

You made me rage quit gears. It's a fine line with that game sometimes and seeing this level of pure *********** shoved me over the brink. Sinking into the abyss, I remember WHY I STOPPED PLAYING THIS GAME.

Sweet Jesus.

Kswissaiaiiaiagogetsomecontent

 

[Swiss]

Swords is town.

Gord is not. Moth is not. J is possibly not town.

Then and now.

What changed?

 

[Swiss]

Ignore that. Just explain Joey & J stances. I get the rest.

 

[ranmaru]

I explained the Joey stance. I'll quote it:

"Joey is scum because he is trying to say that he doesn't think I'm scum for wagoning, but instead is for lynching me because he thinks town will be hurt by it."

My J suspicion was minor but I dropped him to null once Swords pointed out that my reason was bad, and I conceded. J's original vote on Swords was good tho.

 

[ranmaru]

Re: Joey - Also because earlier I disagreed with him on why wagoning may help earlier than later, and he didn't respond to that UNTIL I brought it up again.

 

[Swiss]

Explain the Joey stance another way.

 

[Swiss]

Ninja'd, somehow.

Wagoning always helps. Never a reason not to wagon.