Kittens versus Domo-kuns - Game over, who won?

[ranmaru]

Ok. He is trying to force "Wagoning is bad, therefore X is scummy" Yet he doesn't really say that I'm wagoning for scum purposes. He is trying to force the reason so that his vote on me is substantiated.

 

[ranmaru]

Oops, I explained that wrong.

I was saying WHY it helped, but I was disagreeing to HIM why it was BAD

 

[ranmaru]

The two quotes are in here to be more clear:

Trying to start a wagon so early in the game is not what benefits the town for two reasons:

Its probably not going to gain anything for the town, since its so early and you don't have enough reason to wagon him anyways.

Sword knows very well that as long as he responds somewhat well, then nothing bad will happen to him. As scum, he could easily make up a statement and the wagon would be shut down early because of the lack of information on him.

I thought it was fine for an RVS ice breaker. Course you won't have much reason, but you'll get others to join on possibly. You get stances. You get reasons to back those stances, therefore you get info.

Here is the thing, Swords was already being attacked from early RVS. He was already being pressured, so if a Wagon starts, others might join. Others won't. So you'll have to think why others didn't join, and why others did. I didn't really get a scum vibe from his early vote, plus it prodded discussion.

"Knowing that he can respond well will keep him safe" is a possibility, so you can't really gain a read from that. So I don't really follow on the second reason.

Ok.

I was un-clear, my bad.

I am defending myself. My actions were risky, but I do think the town has benefitted with discussion and stances. I disagree, I even responded to your reasons for it being bad for town, yet you never responded to refute it.






Again you are giving possibilities about what I could have done as scum, that doesn't mean I was doing that.

I don't see why you SEE it is bad to wagon. I feel as though you are trying to force "Wagoning is bad, so X is scum for wagoning". Now, please respond to my quote that I just brought up.

 

[Tandora]

The kittens were busy debating. Things were getting intense. Names were called. Tails poofed. When suddenly, OH MY GOD THERE'S STRING KILL IT!

Vote Count:
Ranmaru (3): Gordito, Joey, Shadow Moth
Shadow Moth(2): Swiss, Fynal
Gordito(2): Ranmaru, Sworddancer

Not Voting: Zen, J

WITH 9 ALIVE, IT TAKES 5 TO LYNCH!

 

[Swiss]

K. Joey drop that.

Ran, do you not see the parallel? Joey says "action X is bad, thus person A is scummy" in this case wagonning and Swords.

You say Joey is scum as his logic is incorrect. This is ALSO "action X is bad, thus person A is scummy".

You are applying the same faulty logic Joey is, yet accusing him of scum through that logic. Look at the game through his eyes, is he still scum? Also note that scum Joey wouldn't have the balls to be as assertive and precise as he has been in his decisions and thought, especially early game.

Now, take another look at Moth with me.

 

[Swiss]

Do you know how easy it is to get bad stances from a wagon in RVS? Scum can easily manipulate a wagon on them early game because they KNOW they're not going to get lynched for it since its so early. Trying to wagon on page 2 isn't going to help at all. I'm not saying you're scum for wagoning specifically, and wagoning is not a scum tactic as a whole. However, wagoning really early in the game doesn't help town in any way, shape, or form, since scum can abuse it REALLY easily.

For example: I'm scum. You wagon me Page 2 like you did swords. I get 3 votes on me. For the sake of anything, I'll say that it's Ryker, July, and Red Ryu in that order. 9 person game. Since it's so early, all I have to say is that "Red Ryu jumped on my wagon without any reasons and put me at L-2, so that makes him scummy. I also don't like *insert player here* because they have yet to post content" and bam, you're pretty much off of me unless I have posted any legit scum tells so far.

@ "that doesn't mean I was doing that": But I think you're scum and they line up, so maybe I think that you were, especially since thats exactly what it looked like.

For future reference - this is all correct.

 

[Swiss]

Unvote
Vote: Ranmaru

Why. You probably did explain but I don't see it.


Zen before I forget, you didn't answer my question page 3. Hit that plz.

not convinced about gord. why swiss's vote is ******** though needs answering from him.

Chasing Gord to answer, again.

I like Sword's effort to push on Fynal. Although I feel he has it wrong on Fynal. I don't get any scum vibes from Swords.

Play like this more.

@133 - Moth why is Tunneling scummy? Does scummy equal scum? Is claiming out of nowhere scummy? I claim cop. Does this make me scum or auto town. Which and why? Just Moth on this, please.

Ran explain your Moth hate.

J, I don't see content, just commentary.

 

[#HBC | J]

Swiss, if you see just commentary you are probably reading incorrectly. Any doubts of content should be stuffed soon enough.

I'll also re-explain for you shortly as well.

 

[ranmaru]

Hmmm, well I still haven't played with Joey in a while. I noticed he has gotten better (from watching his Mafia Scum play etc) so I'm not going to apply his scum meta. Plus I have only witnessed his scum play in DKR.

My reason isn't the best, I just thought him forcing a bad reason on me was scummy. That's the best lead I have. Also more like he isn't trying to consider that I tried to do some good. Plus it seems from earlier on he was siding just to look townie. Meaning he was defending Swords and also voted Fynal, who is pretty obv townie. *I Didn't like his vote on Fynal*

Your thoughts on Joey and Gord?

Why Moth exactly in your pov?

Also about playing like that more, I was going to vote Moth with some reasoning and poking but I then just randomly voted without reason just to get reactions. I was improvising. And lazy.

My reason for voting Moth was seeing Fynal's post and noticing he may have been right (Right that Moth said I was possibly scummy for blatantly asking for more votes, which isn't a good reason), and so I wagoned Moth. (Right after Fynal posted his reasoning) Wagoning him didn't really help me get a better read on him because he didn't really say much. He just defaulted to me and Fynal being scum for asking for more votes.

Bout the Early wagon, I just thought it would help get out of RVS.

 

[Dooms]

Read what I called you out on Ranmaru in my FoS post on you and my vote post on you. I'll quote both.

Ran, your play is crappy. Randomly voting Moth without giving reasons why is completely BS, and I don't like it at all. You're mainly voting Moth for playing safe and OMGUS, one of which is a really bad reason and the other isn't vote worthy. You trying to start a wagon on Swords so early is also really bad, and your play in between doesn't make me feel any better about you.

FoS: Ranmaru

In this post, I mention the wagon, since it is FoS worthy when added to you having BS reasons for calling Moth scum (they still are BS by the way). I didn't go into that at all though.

...Nevermind @ Fynal. I missed his post completely. He just missed the question!

Unvote
Vote: Ranmaru

I feel that Ranmaru is a better option than Gord, simply because he hasn't been backing up his votes or claims until asked why, while Gord has.

@Ran: You voted Moth because of him playing safe and him calling you scum for bad reasons. You never said what the "bad reasons" were, so I'm assuming it was OMGUS, which makes you scummy.

You said two people were not town, and J was probably not town. Lol. It's fine to have more than two scum reads, but calling two people not town and a third person probably not town when theres only two scum makes you seem way too sure about your picks.

I don't even mention wagoning in my vote post on you. It's because of you not giving reasons for your votes until asked (if asked at all), and your BS reasons for voting Moth (playing safe and OMGUS). If you think I'm voting you because of that, then you obviously haven't been paying attention to my posts and I'm more than willing to have you lynched.

Town will be hurt by it? Point out exactly where I wanted you lynched for anything along that line so I can prove you wrong easily, since you're obviously misunderstanding me.

So you basically took the reason that I called you scum and turned it around on me for one post that I skipped, while you've been doing it for every single one of your reads since page 4. Do you know how bad this makes you look? (This is at the "didn't respond until brought up again)

Voting for someone because they disagree with your logic is not pro-town in any way. That's like voting someone because they think you're scum.

You've changed your scum reasons on me three times in the past 30 posts. What good have you done recent game? What you do before that doesn't matter if what you're doing now is absolute ****.

My fynal vote was bad, sure, but that was because I missed where he responded to Swords, which was my whole reason on him being scummy pretty much, since it was a HUGE thing going on for like 80 posts if not more. What else can I say?

Siding with Swords makes me look townie? I stated why I sided with sword in that argument, since setting up for a newb card is not pro-town at all, and that was what it looked like he was doing. If you consider that "siding just to look town", then I don't know what to say. Especially if you don't give details as to how I was siding just to look townie instead of, you know, defending what I thought about the situation, since I was asked about it.

Playing off your Moth vote as a "just to get reactions" vote instead of completely random looks like BS as well, especially since you brought it up waaay after it happened.

He didn't default to you two being scum for asking for more votes. Read his recent posts. "He seems to be hopping all over the place and completely inconsistent" in his 217, for example.

Not moving my vote just because you claimed VT.

 

[ranmaru]

Moth vote was wagoning. If I vote without reason, there sure will be reactions. For example, J's vote. Usually when you wagon, there isn't much REASON to it. It's usually used to gain reads and reactions.

I agreed with Fynal's reason, and I explained after, Joey.

No, town wasn't hurt by it at all. Course it'd get me heat, but I don't care.

Yeah, you skipped it and then voted me instantly. You were FoS'ing to make it seem just right, meaning you were voting cautiously.

I'm not turning it around, I'm stating my thoughts. Again, I still feel you were trying to force bad reasoning onto me. Swiss says I'm doing the same back, but I was never pushing for you initially so I don't see how I'm attacking you with faulty logic. He also wasn't clear as to how your reasoning was correct, yet he has said that wagoning is good.

I disagree, Fynal NEVER set himself up for a newb card. You say "I concede to that point because you are right". I'll give details.

Ok, what did you think was my REAL motive for voting Moth then?

He used the same reason to say Fynal was scum. Fynal is obv town. How has your read on Fynal changed, Joey?

I don't care.

 

[ranmaru]

Honestly not really. That's just my honest opinion though.



What?



I don't like it. Like you said, he's downplaying his skill and later he could end up trying to use the noob card. Not worthy of a vote or anything.



Don't like this post at all. Asking what seer was is fine 'n all but everything before that just makes me feel that you're going to try to use a newbie card this game.



I don't see how Sword has shown any paranoia at all. Care to explain what this paranoia is?

I forgot. Why did Gord dislike me asking "What?" towards Moth but not you? I think you brought this up, and I think this may have been why.

Anyways, you agree with Sword that Fynal may have been setting himself up for a newb card, yet you also say it isn't worthy of a vote or anything. Fence sitting, and defending an easy target: Ie, Swords. Great way to seem townie, without even giving stances.

I thought it odd you would defend Swords, I thought you might have agreed. You didn't really attack anyone else either for attacking Swords for what you agreed was right, you just kept agreeing that Fynal was using the noob card, but you said earlier that it wasn't suspicion worthy or anything, so why would you still be talking about it? You also just disagreed with J worrying about Swords paranoia, instead of suspecting him for it or something.

At first I thought you were pretty townie for strongly defending swords, but you didn't really do anything else with it, so afterwords it seemed like an act to gain town cred.

 

[#HBC | J]

Plus I feel like a psychic for something I said earlier in the thread about two people. xD

Zen, your opinion of Gord if you please. And also would you agree to some Ran-lynching?

This is what I was talking about because these were the two people I didn't like so far and who I wouldn't mind seeing dying and now they are both on the lynching block.

Swiss is null to me, but I'm using POE right now.

How in the world are you using POE on D1? Another thing, at the time, it did seem like Swords was trying to go for the easy lynch with the Fynal wagon.

Gord more likely than J. I don't know much about J because he always dislikes me in any game, so I have him as my third scum pick. I am deff for wagoning Gord.

So the reason you had me in your scum reads was because I apparently always call you scum?

Who said I didn't want to lynch him ToDay? I'm just wagoning Moth for now.

What in the world? You are only wagoning him, but you don't think that he is scum?

Newb pressure is warranted, but this is a bad reason to vote Fynal.

If newb pressure is warranted, why did you vote Swords?

Also you said something along the lines of you were only bandwagoning Swords, let's look at these two posts side by side:

Didn't you take into consideration that he may have been overwhelmed by other's skill level? I would think this a null tell, not scum tell.

Whether you want to lynch him or not, it is still considered pressure. I wasn't saying you were pressuring him to just pressure him, don't misconstrue what I say. I understand that you are using a null tell as a scum tell.

Instead of trying to poke at him to try to develop a stronger read on Fynal, you instead jump to conclusions. Wagon snap would be nice here.

Unvote Vote: Swords

@Fynal: What are your thoughts of Swords, Me, J, and Shadow Moth so far?

Unvote Vote: Shadow Moth

Both of these are you "just wagoning". There is a large scale in difference with these posts because the thing with your swords vote is that you try and justify it. With your Shadow Moth vote you vote him for no reason whatsoever and then when pressured for why you vote Moth, you just shrug it off to "I was wagoning him.".

So to sum it up, I don't believe you.

Unvote

Swords is looking a bit better, but I still wanna keep an eye on em. I GUESS I can see a town Sword voting Fynal for reaction fishing... but I'm keeping an eye out for em. Still my second scum pick. But Vote: Ranmaru is looking much more out of it.

I really don't like this paragraph. "I guess I can see TownSwords doing that but I still got an eye on him and he's still my second scum pick mind you!"

Also note that scum Joey wouldn't have the balls to be as assertive and precise as he has been in his decisions and thought, especially early game.

Totally agree to this logic.

 

[#HBC | J]

@Swiss: The reason I think Ran is scum is because his vote pattern reeks and his reasoning for his voting is even worse. His reads are flippant and don't even make coherent sense. His little tiff with Joey is making him look worse.

Vote: Ranmaru

 

[Shadow Moth]

@133 - Moth why is Tunneling scummy? Does scummy equal scum? Is claiming out of nowhere scummy? I claim cop. Does this make me scum or auto town. Which and why? Just Moth on this, please.

Tunneling itself isn't scummy but if you're tunneling you are closing your mind off to other options and views which can only hinder town. One scummy post does not make someone scum but people being a certain level of scummy makes them scum to me. Claiming out of nowhere is null. Town can do it and really help town or hurt them. Depends on the situation and the role being claimed. As such, claiming cop out of nowhere is also null.

And for the record, Ran didn't claim out of nowhere. I don't believe his claim though.

 

[#HBC | J]

Why don't you believe a simple VT claim?

 

[Shadow Moth]

Why don't you believe a simple VT claim?

Because his play has been really scummy and in a game with only two roles, it's really risky to claim a PR. I think he went for the safest claim as scum.

 

[Shadow Moth]

EBWOP: Two town power roles.

Should have made that more specific.

 

[#HBC | J]

I have the incredibly urge to lynch you now off of that statement alone. What is the need to try and discredit his claim?

 

[Dooms]

Moth vote was wagoning. If I vote without reason, there sure will be reactions. For example, J's vote. Usually when you wagon, there isn't much REASON to it. It's usually used to gain reads and reactions.

Bull-****ing-****. I'm not talking about your voting post against Moth at all, and you're ignoring my point completely. I'm saying that the reasons you had for Moth scum were complete BS and as of recent play, when you claim to have a scum read on someone, you don't give reasons as to why until asked to. Shadow Moth is not the only example.

I agreed with Fynal's reason, and I explained after, Joey.

I'm not going with the reasons that you posted 40 posts after you made the vote, I'm going with the reasons you made when you initially voted. All you said was that you thought he was scummy because his reasons for voting you were bad and because he was playing safe. You trying to fix it 40 posts later doesn't change anything. Agree'ing with Fynal's reasons as being the only reason for wagoning him isn't that good either, though, soo...

No, town wasn't hurt by it at all. Course it'd get me heat, but I don't care.

What? Do you even remember why you called me scummy the first time? "but instead is for lynching me because he thinks town will be hurt by it." Is part of it, but I don't mention anything along this line at all during this game. I seriously have no idea what you're talking about and it looks like you're just trying to put pressure on me for something I didn't do at all.

Yeah, you skipped it and then voted me instantly. You were FoS'ing to make it seem just right, meaning you were voting cautiously.

Wrong. I FoS'd you because someone else was more scummy than you at the time and had all of my focus, which was Fynal. My scum read on him was turned to town(I remember someone asking about this, and I don't remember if I responded or not) because of my point on him being completely null, since he responded, and his intent in scum hunting is very townie. I'll admit that I skimmed over it completely, and you can call me scummy for that, but you calling me scummy for FoS'ing you over Voting you when I had another FoS and a vote in the same post is just mind-blowingly dumb.

I'm not turning it around, I'm stating my thoughts. Again, I still feel you were trying to force bad reasoning onto me. Swiss says I'm doing the same back, but I was never pushing for you initially so I don't see how I'm attacking you with faulty logic. He also wasn't clear as to how your reasoning was correct, yet he has said that wagoning is good.

You're voting me because of:
Not calling you scummy for wagoning, but instead I'm for lynching you because I think town will be hurt by it. (Seriously explain this)
Disagree'ing in thoughts.
Forcing some type of wagon policy.
Not responding to something until prompted to again.
Trying to side with town.
Defending Swords.
Forcing a bad reason on you being scummy.

All of these except two are bad reasons that you're trying to force onto me as scum. Disagree'ing in thoughts isn't a scum tell, you have yet to show how I've tried to side with town, I don't see how I defended swords by asking J about Sword's paranoia. I can't prove the first one wrong since its so confusing and you have yet to explain it at all. I don't see how I'm forcing any wagon policy by saying it doesn't help town to wagon that early, and I take full blame for not responding to that one post. I think my reasons for calling you scummy are legit, but you may not (since its against you), so I can't defend against that really.

Read Swiss' post again, you will see what he's talking about. If you're still lost, come back to me and I'll explain it, since you're obviously lost.

I disagree, Fynal NEVER set himself up for a newb card. You say "I concede to that point because you are right". I'll give details.

Of course you can say this until a noob card is actually used. His post that was being refered can be thought of as legit planning for a noob card, and Fynal couldn't defend against it himself iIrc, since it really could look like that. "I concede to that point because you are right" needs to be explained, as I don't see where I did that at all.

Ok, what did you think was my REAL motive for voting Moth then?

To put your vote on a target with lots of pressure on him currently so you didn't have to do any of it on your own. To hide connections between you and other players, since you didn't give reasons until asked. Both of those.

He used the same reason to say Fynal was scum. Fynal is obv town. How has your read on Fynal changed, Joey?

Oh, you asked this too. Fynal is obvious town? There you go not explaining your reads again. Fynal is town at the moment for reasons I stated above.

I don't care.

Insert 10 characters here.

 

[Shadow Moth]

What is the need to try and discredit his claim?

I don't really understand this wording.

 

[Dooms]

I forgot. Why did Gord dislike me asking "What?" towards Moth but not you? I think you brought this up, and I think this may have been why.

Anyways, you agree with Sword that Fynal may have been setting himself up for a newb card, yet you also say it isn't worthy of a vote or anything. Fence sitting, and defending an easy target: Ie, Swords. Great way to seem townie, without even giving stances.

I thought it odd you would defend Swords, I thought you might have agreed. You didn't really attack anyone else either for attacking Swords for what you agreed was right, you just kept agreeing that Fynal was using the noob card, but you said earlier that it wasn't suspicion worthy or anything, so why would you still be talking about it? You also just disagreed with J worrying about Swords paranoia, instead of suspecting him for it or something.

At first I thought you were pretty townie for strongly defending swords, but you didn't really do anything else with it, so afterwords it seemed like an act to gain town cred.

Now that I think about it, I think its the fact that you were asking questions so much, since Gordito hates that. Other than that, I have no idea why.

Planning something for later game is not worth a vote in any way, shape, or form.

Once again, questioning J's claim on Sword having a paranoia of Fynal is defending? I don't think so.

I didn't do anything else with what? I went into that discussion a lot and I still questioned J's claim on Sword having some type of Paranoia.

 

[#HBC | J]

You are just saying overall that you don't believe his VT claim and that it would make perfect sense for scum to claim a VT role over a PR role. There is no reason to say besides discredit his claim or try to make his claim seem worse/less believable.

 

[Shadow Moth]

You are just saying overall that you don't believe his VT claim and that it would make perfect sense for scum to claim a VT role over a PR role. There is no reason to say besides discredit his claim or try to make his claim seem worse/less believable.

I think he's scum and I don't think a claim is a free pass out of a lynch.
His claim doesn't sway my read in the slightest.

 

[#HBC | J]

Who said the VT claim was a free pass out of his lynch? Did anyone show waffering based off his claim?

 

[Shadow Moth]

Who said the VT claim was a free pass out of his lynch? Did anyone show waffering based off his claim?

Nobody, but it sounds like that's what you're trying to argue.
What I saw your argument as is "You can't prove his claim is fake, therefore he's town because he claimed town."

If this isn't what you're saying you should probably correct me now.

 

[#HBC | J]

Nobody, but it sounds like that's what you're trying to argue.
What I saw your argument as is "You can't prove his claim is fake, therefore he's town because he claimed town."

If this isn't what you're saying you should probably correct me now.

Let me remind you of something:

I started the Ran wagon. I never defended him nor said anything about his claim.

 

[Fynal]

i have some digesting to do...

the extent of the immensity of ran's scummyness in newbie12 (despite him being town) is making it really hard for me to commit myself against ran...bleh.

i'm gonna skim thru n12 again soon and see if i can see any similarities/differences i guess

 

[#HBC | J]

Fynal, you shouldn't do that.

Meta should be only the sprinkling of any case to why someone is scum.

/end advice dog

 

[Shadow Moth]

Let me remind you of something:

I started the Ran wagon. I never defended him nor said anything about his claim.

You definitely just made a whole bunch of posts about his claim but I'd rather lynch Ran toDay and argue about this toMorrow.

 

[#HBC | J]

Nope, not gonna happen that quickly Moth. Please quote me where I made "a whole bunch of posts about his claim.".

 

[#HBC | J]

I don't mean bring up the quotes where I have been asking you about his claim either. I am talking about posts where I bring up his claim as me waffering on him.

I haven't even talked about his claim until this conversation with you.

 

[Fynal]

@ J, swords, swiss: comments on this post would be appreciated. Trying to sort things out here.

I mighta missed something, but...

 

[#HBC | J]

His play is usually weird but I like it this game.

 

[#HBC | J]

Ranmaru wagon looks ick besides Joey. Shadow Moth wagon I somewhat like. Plus with Shadow Moth's last couple posts left horrible tastes.

Unvote
Vote: Shadow Moth

FoS: Ranmaru (regardless)

 

[Xivii]

I'm on post #210 but I'll finish reading tomorrow because it has been very boring reading Joey and Ran back and forth.

@Swiss: I was actually being conservative when I said I was null on Gord. My initial read was scum and it still is scum. I don't think that post you sited affected that read really. Should it have?

As far as I've read, Gord should be lynched.

 

[ranmaru]

I don't like that J has been pushing for me all this time and then switches to Moth because of that. May be legit, but has J ever spoken about Moth before?

 

[Swiss]

hmmm thats interesting. I did an iso on zen, his posts boil down to something like this: questions about hypothetical scumbuds, then a bunch of "im null on X" statements and friendmaking, then recently a bunch of opinions on who he wants lynched. He hasn't posted any reasoning at all anywhere as far as i can tell, just what his opinion is. I havn't played with zen before, i dunno if this is just how he plays, but its weird.

Just how he plays. Provided there are stances and reasoning later when he needs to convince people it's not an issue.

I have an impressively wrong track record with Zen, so tend to ignore his alignment D1.

 

[ranmaru]

Zen, you have stated support for my lynch. Why are you now back on Gord?

Aren't you guys worried that there is a VT claim up in the place?

I don't want a possible PR to be run up, but J seems to have a good reason to be moving towards Moth. It's just odd because Moth doesn't really post stances and is more conservative, so it's hard to garner if J was fine with moving AFTER I claimed, or if it was just Moth being fine with my lynch so therefore he'd have to "disbelieve" my claim as scum.

Swiss, help me out here. *If you aren't playing Gears

 

[Swiss]

K. I was under the impression you were telling the truth in your stance when you said null. Yes, the post I quoted was townie and should have changed it. Still dislike the rest of them.

Now where was I, left my cheerios around here somewhere....