Kirby's 1.10 Buffs

[Dessa]

Goid,

Great! Now if they could just make the a hammer a not-useless-move, Kirby would be perfect.

Hammer is your best option when the enemy is dizzied.

 

[DunnoBro]

Something I thought you guys might like to try out is fthrow > cutter around 40-60. This also true combos, but has less knockback and grounds kirby, leaving him in an overall better position to keep pressuring the opponent.

You can hold forward to do less damage (12% for the whole combo), but ground bounce them and set up a tech chase. Probably only worth it if you're behind since rage mode can convert this into a stock more reliably. And pulling back to hit them with the slash does good damage (18%) and still leaves you in a great position.

When done pretty much anywhere facing the ledge, this will also put them off or below stage. A generally more favorable position, unless they're someone like sheik or jiggs, who you'd rather just be plain below.

 

[C.O.M.M]

This is a wonderful buff! I love the new combo throw ^^ A safer-but-riskier inhale is also a lot better and, imo, more balanced since its heavily punished, and the new neutral air with less knock-back gives more interrupt and combo potential.

Hup-cancelling after a fthrow is another option we have, at mid percents it's pretty wicked for starting u-air/f-air strings, I also tried fthrow-hupcanel-inhale but it seems to have a delay as Kirby doesn't inhale them right away, you also cannot regrab right away either with fthrow-hupcancel-grab.

A lot of possibilities with this, I'm very glad to see a Kirby buff.

 

[SRUFUS3D]

Forward throw to jump to Hammer bash. Works on Mario from 62% to 78% or so. Good string to rack up damage try for yourself.

 

[Ansou]

These buffs are wonderful! The first thing I tried when I saw that F-Throw had a damage decrease was F-Throw -> D-Air -> Grab and it's a fun thing to do if the opponent isn't sure how to handle it.

Also, now I'm kinda unsure if I should use Inhale or Jumping Inhale... I'm so used to Jumping Inhale now that I would probably be confused if I tried Inhale, but I guess Inhale might actually be worth using now.

 

[SRUFUS3D]

These buffs are wonderful! The first thing I tried when I saw that F-Throw had a damage decrease was F-Throw -> D-Air -> Grab and it's a fun thing to do if the opponent isn't sure how to handle it.

Also, now I'm kinda unsure if I should use Inhale or Jumping Inhale... I'm so used to Jumping Inhale now that I would probably be confused if I tried Inhale, but I guess Inhale might actually be worth using now.

Hmm good question. But I use jump inhale for recovery and approach.

 

[Imber]

What is the best way for most characters to escape Fthrow>dair assuming they are at low % and can't simply DI away from it? Clearly Fthrow>dair is not really a true combo but if their escape options are limited I'm thinking it might be possible to take advantage of that to create some kind of 50/50.

 

[FullMoon]

edit: double SH water shuriken or nah?

I decided to check that out of curiosity and I was... surprised to say the least.

While Greninja does a tiny bounce after firing a shuriken, Kirby actually goes so high up it's like he used a second jump. He can actually fire three shurikens out of short hop thanks to that.

It's not that good though. The first shuriken goes too high to hit Greninja when he's grounded and the fact that Kirby jumps after it puts him in the perfect position to be hit by a sweetpost Up-Smash while he's stuck in endlag. If you time it right you can hit Greninja with the first shuriken, but then you'll have lag if you try to use it when you reach the ground again. It's a pretty awkward thing, the bouncing works more against Kirby than in his favor

Interestingly firing a shuriken with Kirby in the air actually pushes him back a bit too, that doesn't happen with Greninja.

 

[chrisall76]

Creating a video soon on Kirby combos, and I need ya'll help on gathering all the combos we know so I can record them and create the video. I have some already there, add anything I missed.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14wH8niNSdzctmGnQBg34d8CF4ysGw6g7V8pQPsp3tbE/edit?usp=sharing

Also can someone tell me if this is actually a combo or not? I'm not the best at perfect pivoting, so I can't do it consistently.
dtilt (trip) > PP utilt
If it is true, then after you can get whatever you can usually get from a utilt (upB3, for instance, so it could be a kill setup). Thanks!

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

Was DI taken into account?

 

[chrisall76]

Due to having no other person to test with no, but I'm sure most should work (fthrow combos at higher % might not work if the opponent DI's out, I know fthrow>upB3 won't work at higher %). In the video I can note which combos might not/won't work with correct DI.

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

Also don't forget to mention b-throw to up-air. It's better then b-throw to bair on some characters because you get an up-tilt after the up-air that leads to a bair.

 

[kirbyfan66]

I'm still not sure if Forward Throw -> Forward/Up Air -> Pivot Up Tilt is a thing that works, but if it is then I'm positive you can get a Back Air follow up, or maybe an Inhale. I know you can't combo into Inhale but it's an option.

 

[FreeGamer]

>still has crap air speed
>still struggles to kill without customs
>still mid/low tier

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

>still has crap air speed
>still struggles to kill without customs
>still mid/low tier

The 2nd one isn't completely true, he has decent kill power for a light weight.
The 3rd thing is half right. Clearly he's not low tier. He's in the higher mid(upper-mid? With all the buffs he's getting, why not)

 

[MikeKirby]

The second one is pretty much true. Yes, Kirby has the kill power but landing the killing blow is what's the problem. In customs you had an u-tilt punish that led to a kill around 90-110% or something. In non customs the only thing that leads to a kill set up is d-tilt's 1/3rd trip rate into f-smash.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

The second one is pretty much true. Yes, Kirby has the kill power but landing the killing blow is what's the problem. In customs you had an u-tilt punish that led to a kill around 90-110% or something. In non customs the only thing that leads to a kill set up is d-tilt's 1/3rd trip rate into f-smash.

But......Dair??? At least sometimes? Come on don't tell me no D:

BTW Mike, I don't think I have seen your thoughts on the buffs Kirby has gotten, what do you think about it?
Do they improve Kirby in any way, tier, viability?

 

[Bribery]

Kirby has pretty good kill power but what he lacks are safe and reliable kill confirms. All his kill moves require a hard read and high commitment. That's why I think a KB buff to Up Throw is one of the best buffs Kirby can receive. Next patch please Sakurai?


Dair doesn't confirm into any kills. Dair to Dsmash is somewhat reliable but isn't guaranteed.



I don't think Kirby, or any other character, is ever going to get more air or ground speed. None of the patches have changed any character attributes like air speed, run speed, weight, etc. Those are looking like they're set in stone at this point. Besides, all characters with multiple jumps have sub-par air speed, aside from Jigglypuff who doesn't have a recovery move. Kirby doesn't necessarily need better mobility to be viable as long as his reward for being in close range is good (just look at Luigi or Ness).

 

[Poupoko]

Any buff is a buff that makes Kirby that much more relevant. I think the F-throw buff was nice, more options are good and having an easy, reliable combo option against every non-fast faller helps (esp. since we could deal with fast fallers before). Our risk/reward ratio is even greater than before... at low percents. At high percents the risk/reward is the same as ever: not very amazing.

But! Since we get more reward at lower percents, we just might be able to take a bit more risks at high percents. I guess it just comes down to outplaying the opponent, like usual unless we get an U-throw / B-air buff!

Oh yeah, and the jab and Inhale buffs were really needed. Now we can use the moves as intended without getting punished around every turn.

 

[FreeGamer]

Mobility is huge. It's kinda ludicrous that we have to deal with the weaknesses of being light, short-ranged, no relevant projectiles, AND slow. More versatile combos are nice, but he won't be more than mediocre if his neutral remains so subpar.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Of course the most significant problem that holds us back is our bad approach, no projectile, and speed I guess
But even then, he's still a great characters that's getting better and better.

Still wish for air speed increase.
I bet MikeKirby and Poyo and Kirbykid will now show he is tough and viable. AM I RIGHT!?

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

He was always viable. The problem is that he has a lot of bad things about him. But Kirby's moveset is so versatile that with smart play except for his speed you wouldn't even notice of the time. His speed is always going to hold him back though. It's one of the reasons he's held back as a character. You can't just ignore his flaws.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

He was always viable. The problem is that he has a lot of bad things about him. But Kirby's moveset is so versatile that with smart play except for his speed you wouldn't even notice of the time. His speed is always going to hold him back though. It's one of the reasons he's held back as a character. You can't just ignore his flaws.

True that's why I want better air speed
I knew he was always viable, he's just so underrated for whatever reason,and een before this patch zero thought he was surprisingly. Toptier, now with even more buffs....I wonder what he will say now.

But you are right, I don't really find the range of his attacks a problem, but I just don't really see how his range has gotten worse from brawl, at least visually,because some moves like Utilt still seem to have good range.

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

True that's why I want better air speed
I knew he was always viable, he's just so underrated for whatever reason,and een before this patch zero thought he was surprisingly. Toptier, now with even more buffs....I wonder what he will say now.

But you are right, I don't really find the range of his attacks a problem, but I just don't really see how his range has gotten worse from brawl, at least visually,because some moves like Utilt still seem to have good range.

Just take our word for it then. Take a picture of Kirby's brawl up-tilt and Smash 4's and you'll see a difference.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

Kirby is viable. The problem on him is that he is pretty light and he struggles to kill. He also is lacking on speed, but one can say this can be covered by his air speed. He has approaching problems too, and his only "long"-range tool (Final Cutter's beam) is so useless people will change it for the way better Custom Special (Upper Cutter).
About buffs: I've noticed something yesterday: Down-Smash is killing earlier...? I don't know if that's just me, but I used to kill people with 135% and above before, and I got kills with it on lower percentages than before. For example, I got Yoshi with 111%, and I recall getting Zelda with percentages around 100-120% too. Yep, still too high, but it's his fastest Smash Attack and it can be useful.
I am nowhere as experienced as Kirby, but I think this attack might be overlooked. Whatever, those kills were on FG and there is no Dump from D-Smash. I'm just finding it better than before.

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

Kirby is viable. The problem on him is that he is pretty light and he struggles to kill. He also is lacking on speed, but one can say this can be covered by his air speed. He has approaching problems too, and his only "long"-range tool (Final Cutter's beam) is so useless people will change it for the way better Custom Special (Upper Cutter).
About buffs: I've noticed something yesterday: Down-Smash is killing earlier...? I don't know if that's just me, but I used to kill people with 135% and above before, and I got kills with it on lower percentages than before. For example, I got Yoshi with 111%, and I recall getting Zelda with percentages around 100-120% too. Yep, still too high, but it's his fastest Smash Attack and it can be useful.
I am nowhere as experienced as Kirby, but I think this attack might be overlooked. Whatever, those kills were on FG and there is no Dump from D-Smash. I'm just finding it better than before.

Nobody overlooks D-smash. It just has problems. For starters it comes out on frame 12 or 11 I think which is bad considering it's his fastest smash attack. The range on his d-smash is a problem too, Although range is a problem for Kirby in general the point still stands. Most characters D-smash comes out on frame 10 or faster so it isn't really to reliable as a punish option either considering f-smash is only 1 or 2 frames slower and kills better with the same amount of endlag. It isn't without it's advantages though, It kills fairly reliably and is pretty strong for a D-smash. But it has too many problems to be considered "Underatted".

 

[Asdioh]

About buffs: I've noticed something yesterday: Down-Smash is killing earlier...? I don't know if that's just me, but I used to kill people with 135% and above before, and I got kills with it on lower percentages than before. For example, I got Yoshi with 111%, and I recall getting Zelda with percentages around 100-120% too. Yep, still too high, but it's his fastest Smash Attack and it can be useful.
I am nowhere as experienced as Kirby, but I think this attack might be overlooked. Whatever, those kills were on FG and there is no Dump from D-Smash. I'm just finding it better than before.

Nah I'm pretty sure Dsmash is the same.

Just take our word for it then. Take a picture of Kirby's brawl up-tilt and Smash 4's and you'll see a difference.

Really? I don't remember, it's been too long since I touched Brawl.. I just have a strong feeling that Bair is noticeably shorter than it used to be, with a lot of my Bair OoS punishes whiffing pitifully when it feels like they should easily hit.

True that's why I want better air speed
I knew he was always viable, he's just so underrated for whatever reason,and even before this patch zero thought he was surprisingly. Toptier, now with even more buffs....I wonder what he will say now.

Nah I don't think he's really underrated. By now, people know what he can and can't do, and there's not really much to underrate. Everybody knows he has good combos (which are better now!) and they also know he's bottom tier in weight, overall mobility, and range. He keeps getting better though, and outside of a couple matchups, I don't think he's hopeless anymore.

Does Fthrow->stuff really not work on fastfallers at low %? I haven't had anybody to test reliably since the patch, since my internet has been total garbage for nearly two months now. Do they just fall too fast and shield, like the old Fthrow->Fair?

Is Bthrow->Bair/Upair the best option at ultra low % on specific characters anymore? I'm kinda doubting it, with the new Fthrow options. Especially since just a few % on your opponent, or some Rage on Kirby, makes Bthrow combo much less.

Like, I don't know how badly DI screws it up, but Kirby might have one of the best grab/throw games in Smash 4 history as of this patch, when you account for reliability/ease of combos, damage from pummels (I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure his pummels are faster and therefore safer than most of the good characters with good throw combos, so it's free damage that Kirby exclusively gets) and then the position his opponents end up in after the combos. For example, Fthrow->Upair->Uptilt->Upair/more Uptilts/Upsmash puts the opponent in a bad spot at the end, with Kirby ready to followup. Compare that to most throw combos (besides maybe Luigi) and Kirby has better potential for followups afterwards. Even compared to 1.0 Diddy's Dthrow->Upair->Upair (which I believe did 7+7+7 damage? Or close to that?) Kirby does more damage and has a better ending position.

It's just a question of how badly DI screws with this combo at early/mid percents.

Nobody overlooks D-smash. It just has problems. For starters it comes out on frame 12 or 11 I think which is bad considering it's his fastest smash attack. The range on his d-smash is a problem too, Although range is a problem for Kirby in general the point still stands. Most characters D-smash comes out on frame 10 or faster so it isn't really to reliable as a punish option either considering f-smash is only 1 or 2 frames slower and kills better with the same amount of endlag. It isn't without it's advantages though, It kills fairly reliably and is pretty strong for a D-smash. But it has too many problems to be considered "Underatted".

It's frame 10, unless this is outdated/incorrect. Also this. I believe they're mostly correct. Just a couple errors, like ROB's Upair coming out on frame 26, which obviously isn't the case. Kirby's Fsmash is frame 13, Upsmash is frame 14. His smashes are quite fast for how powerful they are. Dsmash and Upsmash also have invincibility on the feet, which is very nice.
There are some smashes that are stupidly fast, but most of them are weak. Although Diddy's Frame 6 Dsmash got buffed in knockback this patch. Stop buffing him he's already good >=(

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

Nah I'm pretty sure Dsmash is the same.
Really? I don't remember, it's been too long since I touched Brawl.. I just have a strong feeling that Bair is noticeably shorter than it used to be, with a lot of my Bair OoS punishes whiffing pitifully when it feels like they should easily hit.

It isn't a significant difference in range. But it's definetly noticable when compared. His aerials are the easiest to notice the difference though. I miss brawl's Dair ;-;

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Nah I'm pretty sure Dsmash is the same.
Really? I don't remember, it's been too long since I touched Brawl.. I just have a strong feeling that Bair is noticeably shorter than it used to be, with a lot of my Bair OoS punishes whiffing pitifully when it feels like they should easily hit.
Nah I don't think he's really underrated. By now, people know what he can and can't do, and there's not really much to underrate. Everybody knows he has good combos (which are better now!) and they also know he's bottom tier in weight, overall mobility, and range. He keeps getting better though, and outside of a couple matchups, I don't think he's hopeless anymore.

Does Fthrow->stuff really not work on fastfallers at low %? I haven't had anybody to test reliably since the patch, since my internet has been total garbage for nearly two months now. Do they just fall too fast and shield, like the old Fthrow->Fair?

Is Bthrow->Bair/Upair the best option at ultra low % on specific characters anymore? I'm kinda doubting it, with the new Fthrow options. Especially since just a few % on your opponent, or some Rage on Kirby, makes Bthrow combo much less.

Like, I don't know how badly DI screws it up, but Kirby might have one of the best grab/throw games in Smash 4 history as of this patch, when you account for reliability/ease of combos, damage from pummels (I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure his pummels are faster and therefore safer than most of the good characters with good throw combos, so it's free damage that Kirby exclusively gets) and then the position his opponents end up in after the combos. For example, Fthrow->Upair->Uptilt->Upair/more Uptilts/Upsmash puts the opponent in a bad spot at the end, with Kirby ready to followup. Compare that to most throw combos (besides maybe Luigi) and Kirby has better potential for followups afterwards. Even compared to 1.0 Diddy's Dthrow->Upair->Upair (which I believe did 7+7+7 damage? Or close to that?) Kirby does more damage and has a better ending position.

It's just a question of how badly DI screws with this combo at early/mid percents.


It's frame 10, unless this is outdated/incorrect. Also this. I believe they're mostly correct. Just a couple errors, like ROB's Upair coming out on frame 26, which obviously isn't the case. Kirby's Fsmash is frame 13, Upsmash is frame 14. His smashes are quite fast for how powerful they are. Dsmash and Upsmash also have invincibility on the feet, which is very nice.
There are some smashes that are stupidly fast, but most of them are weak. Although Diddy's Frame 6 Dsmash got buffed in knockback this patch. Stop buffing him he's already good >=(

You are right, idk about Fthrow, I keep forgetting that it can combo now because it was his worst throw pre-patch, so I'm not sure about all the combos and stuff it can do, also I read apparently it is stronger then it was before, I will test this right now
Kills Mario at 204...so I doubt its stronger.

Um how do you quote small parts of. A reply instead of the whole thing?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I'll fully comment on it when I can actually test, but from assumptions based on the F-Throw angles, Kirby probably has a top 5 grab/throw game.

I haven't been able to do anything yet, though, so take anything I say with a grain of salt, lol. Is the hitstun on the throw good, or not really? Kirby's aerials come out pretty slow excluding B-Air, so I'm wondering what our frame advantage is.

also can somebody record what F-Throw angle looks like at 100% against Mario when DI is away plspls

 

[Bribery]

The hitstun on Fthrow is suprisingly good. At mid %s, there's usually enough time to input a jump + Fair/Uair and still have it register as a true combo in training mode. You can even jump twice + Upper Cutter and it'll register as a true combo in training mode at kill %s

 

[Altair357]

Good enough to get a double jump + frame 10 forward air at some percents. If you pummel 2-3 times and fthrow to fair, that can be roughly 20% since fair is 12-13%.

EDIT: Oh, I guess that's what Bribery said.

 

[Imber]

I made this very rough visual guide to show how DI away affects Fthrow. This varies by character of course but in general you will always be able to combo after Fthrow from 0-20% (without rage), but at around 30% most characters will be out of range of anything but upper cutter. At higher percents where Fthrow launches them above Kirby most characters will still be able to escape Kirby's pitiful range but some of the floaty characters can still be hit by fair after a jump. Fthrow>Upper Cutter does not work at higher percents so it's really only useful around 30% when nothing else will reach.

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

Thanks for making this guide. Now people including myself will know when to and not to to use f-throw. Wish it was able to combo at higher percents though. It seems like after 30% we'd be better off d-throwing for damage and b-throwing for positional advantage.

 

[SRUFUS3D]

The second one is pretty much true. Yes, Kirby has the kill power but landing the killing blow is what's the problem.

Thank you. I swear I said this somewhere ...

 

[raizur]

Dair doesn't confirm into any kills. Dair to Dsmash is somewhat reliable but isn't guaranteed.

This is something I've been meaning to test on for sometime. It seems to be guaranteed on pikachu, but that's all I know so far. I need to get characters with similar weight class or size and see if it's guaranteed or simply reliable.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Alright, I'm finally home. I need to get situated and clean things up, once I'm done I'll start labbing.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Dair to down smash accounts for about 50 percent of my kills with kirby.

Whether the down smash connects is reliant on a few different factors. Opposing character, spacing, percent and whether you hit with the splash hitbox or not. Its essentially guaranteed unless, a. They are on the very outside of the dair, and the splash hitbox puts them out of range, b. Your dair is staled so you have less hitstun on it, c. They are light and or floaty enough that the splash hitbox puts them over the down smash or d.their damage is too low and the dair doesnt give you enough hitstun

 

[Asdioh]

Guys. I don't wanna be wrong on this, so help me out. Have any of you 1. gotten a copy power and then 2. lost that copy power by getting hit? I've been testing it in training mode and against a computer, I haven't seen Kirby lose his Copy ability yet.... if they changed it so he no longer loses them, this is a huge RNG buff.....

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

Something like this seems hard to test. After all it is RNG. I can't remember if it happened recently to me though. Wouldn't that have showed up in the data mines?