Kirby's 1.10 Buffs

[Phan7om]

I forget the specific but there is a true combo into inhale.

Going off of instinct here so probably wrong. I know u-tilt to inhale was a possible combo before at low %s definitely seems that way now. Rev. Uair definitely combos into inhale at lowish %s, SHFF AC Uair and even Falling Uair probably works too now. Dont really know how fast Inhale is now but everytime I try to Dair > Inhale it has worked where before I know it didnt... so idk. I usually get my inhales from reads and stuff.

Someone here will prob come thru with some facts tho.

 

[|RK|]

It depends if that character had a buff or nerf in their neutral B. For example, wii fit's neutral B got buffed to now heal 2% fully charged instead of 1. If we copy the ability, we now have the power to heal 2%.

I was checking because Greninja's neutral B has a quicker startup. That and Sheik and Sonic's copy abilities stayed the same when the characters themselves got needed.

 

[FKA Kobra]

Kirby's even more beast now. His Birthday gift.

 

[t!MmY]

I'm in the process of making a list of F-throw → U-air, F-air, & N-air combos for all the characters. Stay tuned!

 

[Ha Sarcasm]

So when i was playing for online and waiting for the other player. I was playing around with the punching bag on the wait screen . For some reason the first two hits on kirbys rising fair sends the bag upwards kind of high. Havent tested in training mode but i thought that was weird

 

[KingDaiGurren]

Not sure how applicable this is but I was able to get utilts - uair- utilt-dair-fthrow-dair-utilt-uair on fox in training. I was using upper cutter and the combo capped out at 95% not sure how applicable it is since it was training and I used upper cutter but at the very least without upper cutter it was like a 0-80 string

Edit* just checked without upper cutter and it's 0-84

 

[Sidereus]

Kirby finally got a throw combo that isn't just back throw into BAir at 0%? Yay!

 

[rm88]

Kirby's even more beast now. His Birthday gift.

We just got our Brawl combos back, kind of I honestly doubt this will make us high tier, but it's so good abusing f-throw now. This is pretty nice for the Sheik MU, really.

 

[Wintermelon43]

We just got our Brawl combos back, kind of I honestly doubt this will make us high tier, but it's so good abusing f-throw now. This is pretty nice for the Sheik MU, really.

He already is high tier.

(Although I guess my top and high tiers are technicially huge, and really for other's list he'd be in upper middle but still

 

[|RK|]

Buster Kirby F-Throw -> F-Air -> F-Throw -> ...

It's pretty good at the right percent. Racks up damage fast. I doubt it's a thing against an opponent that actually DIs, among other things. But I like these sorts of low-level strings. Like Copy to double B-Air.

 

[Dessa]

I'm in the process of making a list of F-throw → U-air, F-air, & N-air combos for all the characters. Stay tuned!

So does this mean that there are no true Fthrow>dair combos then? It'd be a bit op, bu nice

 

[Nickname87]

I really hope this doesnt make kirby too braindead like luigi.

 

[WootSnorlax]

This buff is all Kirby needs!! I've been saying that if Smash4 Kirby had Brawl Kirby's fthrow it would make him super viable. Getting grabs before never converted to any extra damage and now it does with fthrow! Also jab finally connecting with each other makes me so happy. Being able to shield jabs mid combo was freaking ridiculous and made me wish that we had a gentleman like jab, but not anymore. Nair getting reduced knockback is actually better. It wasn't a kill move, it was more like a get off me or setup type move. I actually use nair -> ftilt/fsmash every once in a while and am glad it will connect at just a bit later percent too. Prepare for the realm of high tier boiz!

@ Nickname87 Nah, Luigi has a dumb kill confirm off a grab at 90% using the only throw that they will ever use for the whole game. Along with that he gets a panic button nair with crazy priority. Kirby will never reach that level of braindead until he gets stuff like that.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

There is no reason these buffs shouldn't either make him more viable, or rise him on the tier list, either would be fine

 

[kirbyfan66]

Has anyone heard anything about a change to Kirby's Up Tilt? Because I'm not seeing it. Probably placebo.

KIRBY'S SO MUCH BETTER NOW THOUGH. Nice birthday gift! I think all he needs now is a KO Throw and more range on his Bair and he's set. Can't really complain overall though, this is great!

...Would still like autocancel Fair/3 frame Nair but that's unnecessary.

 

[Bribery]

We already confirmed that Inhale got its start up decreased, but it also got its end lag decreased!
http://smashboards.com/threads/tour...nity-patch-notes.412130/page-12#post-19798538

 

[Happ]

Alright, so you can Fthrow into the footstool combo! Fthrow>Dair>sourspot Utilt>Reverse Utilt>Uair>Footstool to down b
Looking to be about 0~15% depending on fall speed. Characters with frame 3 nairs might be able to get out between the dair and first Utilt. Have only been testing on lvl9's in regular matches so far though.

We already confirmed that Inhale got its start up decreased, but it also got its end lag decreased!
http://smashboards.com/threads/tour...nity-patch-notes.412130/page-12#post-19798538

The endlag was decreased a couple patches ago, unless this is an additional decrease

 

[kirbyfan66]

I keep messing up my pivoting, but can someone test this for me?

Forward Throw -> Forward Air -> Pivot Up Tilt -> Inhale

I know you can get the Inhale after the Up Tilt, B-Reverse or not, but the Forward Air -> Pivot Up Tilt is what I want to know. I think it works, but since I keep messing up the Pivot, I want to make sure. Also something of note is Forward Throw -> FF Nair -> Up Tilt or something. It's not a true combo but I'm not sure who can get out of it.

 

[rm88]

He already is high tier.

(Although I guess my top and high tiers are technicially huge, and really for other's list he'd be in upper middle but still

Really? I see him being slightly above the exact middle of the ranking. We have some rather problematic MUs that, unsurprisingly, make Kirby a rare sight at tournaments.

 

[WootSnorlax]

@ kirbyfan66 Having a kill throw would def make him top tier and not just high tier. He already half has a kill throw in the fact that uthrow can kill at 160%ish with rage and bthrow at the ledge can kill at 130%

 

[kirbyfan66]

@ kirbyfan66 Having a kill throw would def make him top tier and not just high tier. He already half has a kill throw in the fact that uthrow can kill at 160%ish with rage and bthrow at the ledge can kill at 130%

160% is... a bit high for a lightweight to want, but I forgot that his Back Throw can actually KO. I'm cool with just the Back Throw, especially since it has more uses than just KO'ing.

Will always want that Back Air range increase, though. ;_;

 

[WootSnorlax]

@ kirbyfan66 Yeah that's true, but at least it's an option to kill though. Plus it's amplified on stages with platforms. Still though 160%... x.x

Pls yes on that Bair. Or at least endlag on it like Mario's

 

[rm88]

160% is... a bit high for a lightweight to want, but I forgot that his Back Throw can actually KO. I'm cool with just the Back Throw, especially since it has more uses than just KO'ing.

Will always want that Back Air range increase, though. ;_;

These are things we had in Brawl :[ Nicer b-air, throw combos, a deadlier u-throw... how come we were stuck in mid tier back then? Brawl was an unbalanced mess, lol.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

He already is high tier.

(Although I guess my top and high tiers are technicially huge, and really for other's list he'd be in upper middle but still

There's no tier list,but the general consensus is that he is mid tier.

 

[Putuk]

Congratz on the Inhale buff.

Maybe one day they'll remember the other character with Inhale and buff that too.

 

[Bribery]

The endlag was decreased a couple patches ago, unless this is an additional decrease

It's an additional change. Start up was decreased by 4 frames (Frame 18 -> 14) and total frames reduced by 5 frames.

http://smashboards.com/threads/tour...nity-patch-notes.412130/page-15#post-19800013

 

[MikeKirby]

I can't WAIT to come back and experiment around with these changes! All of Kirby's throws are usable! Now all we need is for u-throw to KO earlier but, heheh, would I be greedy for asking for that?

I'm a bit anxious as to what this n-air nerf is. I liked that it was fairly safe on block when retreating. I hope it still is and I hope the cooldown is the same. If they nerfed the knock back than that'd be a buff more than anything because we can combo more out of it. Aw well, speculation for now.

I won't be able to touch the game until the very end of August because I'm away on vacation so I'll follow off of what you guys find and then experiment with my own ideas when I return.

With the f-throw change, I might be able to connect my whole u-tilt>u-air combo strings on Sheik/Fox etc. from just a grab! This is insane!

Edit: Also, I forgot d-air's start up frames but if our buffed inhale is around the same then maybe you can set up sourspot u-tilt into inhale?

 

[Bribery]

Buffed Inhale is faster than Dair. Inhale start up is now 14 frames (down from 18). Dair start up is 18 frames.

 

[t!MmY]

The following was compiled under these circumstances:

Training Mode
CPU set to "Wait"
Buffered attacks
Moving toward the opponent in the air​

Standard F-Throw → Up-Air combo (SFU combo)

Spoiler

0 ~ 41
0 ~ 26
8 ~ 47
0 ~ 44
0 ~ 38
0 ~ 43
10 ~ 37
0 ~ 40
8 ~ 39
0 ~ 40
8 ~ 46
21 ~ 45
0 ~ 37
0 ~ 34
23 ~ 39
0 ~ 57
0 ~ 36
0 ~ 35
0 ~ 48
0 ~ 51
0 ~ 47
6~10, 23~37
0 ~ 39
2 ~ 35
8 ~ 38
0 ~ 41
13 ~ 56
10 ~ 42
0 ~ 39
0 ~ 11, 23 ~ 37
0 ~ 38
0 ~ 31
0 ~ 31
0 ~ 38
11 ~ 39
0 ~ 50
0 ~ 43
0 ~ 41
0 ~ 42
11 ~ 43
13 ~ 60
0 ~ 49
14 ~ 33
0 ~ 53
0 ~ 33
0 ~ 36
0 ~ 39
0 ~ 55
0 ~ 35
0 ~ 56
0 ~ 31
3 ~ 40

There are some tricks to expand the damage range of the U-air combo:

1) For characters that require more than 0% to combo into U-air, you can Fast Fall before performing the U-air to combo. (Example: Mario normally requires 8% minimum to combo into U-air, but you can Fast Fall after a buffered U-air to get the U-air to combo).

2) At higher %, when a buffered U-air no longer connects, you can do one of two things to combo into an Up Air:

a) Forgo the buffer and use the F-throw's upward momentum to help reach the opponent.
b) Jump and then execute a U-air. (example: F-throw to Jump to U-air will register as a Combo on Wario up to 99% instead of the usual 55% without the Jump).​

It's also interesting to note that F-throw combos into U-air more easily if Kirby is facing one way instead of the other. This is character dependent, and I'll include the info at a later time. But, for example, Kirby can combo Shulk from 0 ~ 53% when facing right, but 0 ~ 55 when facing left. The information given above is the minimum percent ot the two possibilities.

Standard F-Throw → Forward-Air combo (SFF combo)

Spoiler

0 ~ 41
0 ~ 26
8 ~ 47
0 ~ 53
0 ~ 38
0 ~ 43
10 ~ 37
0 ~ 40
4 ~ 32
0 ~ 34
0 ~ 34
21 ~ 33
0 ~ 35
0 ~ 28
10 ~ 34
0 ~ 45
0 ~ 26
0 ~ 29
0 ~ 41
0 ~ 42
0 ~ 37
0 ~ 31
0 ~ 37
2 ~ 29
8 ~ 32
0 ~ 37
0 ~ 46
2 ~ 35
0 ~ 26
0 ~ 29
0 ~ 32
0 ~ 30
0 ~ 28
0 ~ 33
2 ~ 30
0 ~ 38
0 ~ 43
0 ~ 38
0 ~ 35
11 ~ 43
4 ~ 48
0 ~ 30
7 ~ 32
0 ~ 44
0 ~ 32
0 ~ 39
0 ~ 32
0 ~ 37
0 ~ 31
0 ~ 44
0 ~ 30
0 ~ 40

With the F-Air, right now I'm just listing the % at which F-Throw will combo into any of the F-air hits. So note that most of these percentages will be for only one or two of the three kicks of F-Air.

This information, plus additions, will be added to Kirby & The Epic Guide in the next update.

 

[MikeKirby]

Congratz on the Inhale buff.

Maybe one day they'll remember the other character with Inhale and buff that too.

Dedede's inhale can eat things that Kirby can't, though.

 

[Altair357]

So does this mean that there are no true Fthrow>dair combos then? It'd be a bit op, bu nice

It's possible to buffer a shield before the dair comes out. I'm not sure which frame shield comes out, but if you fthrow them at the edge, it might be possible to land a guaranteed dair before airdodge comes out. Airdodge is frame 4, I think.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Congratz on the Inhale buff.

Maybe one day they'll remember the other character with Inhale and buff that too.

Serisualy why isn;t he getting buffed yet???

 

[Imber]

I'm pretty sure these have been mentioned but I just wanted to post what I know about them.

Fthrow > FF Uair >Dtilt is a true combo on fast/sorta-fast fallers from around 0-15%. Around 0% most fast fallers hit the ground after Uair allowing dtilt to possibly trip them giving you a follow up opportunity (you can do this combo back-to-back on fox if dtilt trips him for example). Obviously this combo is really only for grabs at 0% though.

Fthrow > FF Uair > turnaround Utilt is a true combo on fast fallers starting around 5% but I don't think it can combo at zero (correct me if wrong). For more medium-speed fallers it can work at 0% but the timing can be tight and might not be possible if they DI away. This is probably the preferred combo on fast fallers because you can continue it into an utilt/uair string for a devastating amount of damage.

These combo percents don't factor in rage or DI so they might be less reliable but hopefully that doesn't make too big of a difference. Also, there are tons of other things you can do out of Fthrow but these are just the best extended true combos I could find that work on multiple characters.

 

[FirstaLasto]

From 0%, I was able to make a 48% combo using on Run AI Bowser in Training.
Fthrow -> Dair -> Fthrow -> Dair -> Fthrow -> Dair -> Pummel -> Fthrow -> Jump -> Fair

Is this escapable? I know the Run AI will attempt to airdodge (it couldn't in this combo), but are there other ways to escape it that the AI doesn't try?

 

[WootSnorlax]

Can someone test if you can slide off using Stone again?

 

[Imber]

Can someone test if you can slide off using Stone again?

I was always garbage at doing it but I'm almost positive it's still gone.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Honestly, I don't even care about the throw.

JAB IS FIXED. We have one of the best jabs in the game, yet it was possibly the worst pre-patch as you'd get like... 4% and then shield grabbed. Dying at 90% to Dolphin Slash pre-patch for landing a hit was stupid.

jabjabjabjabjabjabjabjabjabjab

JAB

I'll test jank Kirby custom combos when I get back from this mini vacation with some friends. Maybe I'll finally post specifically why Grounding Stone is the best...

Probably not.

edit: double SH water shuriken or nah?

 

[Asdioh]

I agree, it's almost like Nintendo read the Kirby boards and decided to buff some of the things we've wanted the most. The "what buffs does Kirby need?" thread was kind of tl;dr, but the things I've wanted most were 1. Fthrow combos 2. fixed Jab 3. Inhale buffed so that it becomes safer to use, without becoming "OP" for Kirbycides. Well, it's now safer to use, and therefore better for Kirbycides, but whatever! The only other thing I wanted to make Kirby a truly good character is a safe KO setup, namely from throw combos, or from his KO throws actually being powerful... unfortunately, we didn't get that. His Upthrow doesn't need to be as strong as Charizard's, and his Backthrow doesn't need to be as strong as Ness', but still, they're too weak and DI screws up Fthrow KO setups 100% of the time. Oh well, he now is a little safer, and does more damage from throws, so he's definitely more viable than before.

Anyone know if Copy Abilities changed? So like... does Greninja's copy ability have faster startup? Or does the change list include copy ability changes?

I didn't know about Greninja's shuriken change when I tested, but it seemed to be the same speed side-by-side with Kirby. Same with Luigi. Same with Sheik. That means he no longer has the pre-nerf Needles. Another one worth testing is Robin, I haven't tested that yet. They probably went through and made sure all of Kirby's Copy moves were the same frame data as the originals.

These buffs HAVE to make kirby more Viable right? I mean come on, his grab and throw game is almost like it was in Brawl, and it was among the best in that game.
If anything these buffs should either make him less underrated, or make him slightly higher in the tier list(maybe 1 or 2 spots couldn't hurt right?)

I think you're overrating his Brawl throw game. The "Gonzo Combo" (Fthrow, Upair, reverse Uptilt, Bair) did not actually work against people who knew how to DI it. Tangent: The thing about throws in Smash games is that the speed of the throw is actually extremely important, because it gives people time to prepare their DI. Example: all of Diddy Kong's throws in Smash 4 are, I believe, faster to execute than all of Kirby's throws, except possible Bthrow. If you expect an Up/Downthrow from Diddy, and he instead does a Bthrow/Fthrow, you might be holding the wrong direction before you can react, causing you to die by accident, earlier than you normally would. The speed of Kirby's throws screwed him over in both games: in Brawl, a knowledgeable player would get Fthrown, DI away, and then expect the Upair followup, and SDI that, leaving them out of range for the usual Uptilt followup. The same is happening in Smash 4: Kirby's Fthrow animation is long enough that players will already be holding away, ensuring that followups won't happen. Kirby's Dthrow and Upthrow have even longer animations, making it easier for opponents to DI correctly. Kirby's Bthrow is decently fast, but I would imagine people would still be able to DI it correctly.

Going off of instinct here so probably wrong. I know u-tilt to inhale was a possible combo before at low %s definitely seems that way now. Rev. Uair definitely combos into inhale at lowish %s, SHFF AC Uair and even Falling Uair probably works too now. Dont really know how fast Inhale is now but everytime I try to Dair > Inhale it has worked where before I know it didnt... so idk. I usually get my inhales from reads and stuff.

Someone here will prob come thru with some facts tho.

I believe Uptilt (at least sourspot?) to Inhale can work very well. I've been testing out Dair->Inhale on CPUs and a few FG matches, which I can barely play because my internet is screwed. It's definitely not guaranteed, unfortunately. Even with the faster startup, they can jump away or whatever before Inhale catches them. Speaking of which, I'm surprised by how noticeable 4 frames makes. The very first time I used Inhale in this patch, I noticed it started faster, and that was only 4 frames?!
Jab to Inhale is also a thing, but that's just a risky mixup. Honestly, Inhale generally still requires a read to land, which I guess is ok. His neutral game is objectively better though, because people won't be able to safely shield against him as easily, since he can throw out Inhale if they shield a lot and it's great :D

So when i was playing for online and waiting for the other player. I was playing around with the punching bag on the wait screen . For some reason the first two hits on kirbys rising fair sends the bag upwards kind of high. Havent tested in training mode but i thought that was weird

Yeah this has always happened. Some weird property of the sandbag, it never happens to players. Landing a falling Fair2 on offstage opponents has a pretty decent semi-spike going on though.

I'm in the process of making a list of F-throw → U-air, F-air, & N-air combos for all the characters. Stay tuned!

I know you already did it, but I think DI is super imperative for this list, for reasons I just mentioned >_<

I really hope this doesnt make kirby too braindead like luigi.

Nah, like I said, the DI messes it up at the critical percents. He definitely has useful true combos from his Fthrow at low to mid percents, but that's par for the course in Smash 4. He'd only be braindead if these combos did massive chunks of damage consistently (Luigi) and then lead into guaranteed kills at higher percents, requiring only an easy read of DI (Luigi..)
The most unfortunate thing, IMO, is that high % Fthrow doesn't even lead into "mixup, read, 50/50" situations, whatever you want to call them. There's no "Fthrow and read an airdodge and punish" situation, it's just "Fthrow, they DI away, and now they're out of range for anything I can do "

Alright, so you can Fthrow into the footstool combo! Fthrow>Dair>sourspot Utilt>Reverse Utilt>Uair>Footstool to down b
Looking to be about 0~15% depending on fall speed. Characters with frame 3 nairs might be able to get out between the dair and first Utilt. Have only been testing on lvl9's in regular matches so far though.


The endlag was decreased a couple patches ago, unless this is an additional decrease

I tried Fthrow to footstool a little bit, but didn't test it much before I figured it was worthless. Feel free to prove me wrong, but it's super hard to get footstools even with no DI, and Kirby has no good followup to footstools really. Also, I just reread your sentence, and realized you meant footstools to extend combos, not directly from the grab. Oops! Ok so at least we know Fthrow->Footstool is basically unviable.
Fthrow->Dair->Uptilt->Uptilt->Upair->Footstool->Stone sounds cool though. I don't know how much DI would screw those attacks up, but I do know that people can DI when they're footstooled, which means there's a good chance of the Stone finisher missing.


tl;dr Kirby buffs are good, now just need tiny little nerfs on a few characters and we're set! I haven't heard anything about customs being changed (aside from universal changes with their corresponding default moves) and I'm surprised, I would have been willing to bet money that Villager's customs would have been nerfed, and I've been surprisingly accurate with patches thus far. I guess they just want customs to die lol :[

 

[FirstaLasto]

Made a list of how many times you can dair in an fthrow chain from 0% on each character. To be more specific, 1 time means you can do Fthrow -> Dair -> Fthrow -> not Dair, 2 times means you can do Fthrow ->, Dair ->, Fthrow -> Dair, -> Fthrow -> not Dair, ect.

3 Dairs (44%-47%)


2 Dairs (34%-37%)


1 Dair (24%-27%)


0 Dairs (14%-17%)


7 Dairs (?!?!)
(Buster Ability)

 

[Serell]

Great! Now if they could just make the a hammer a not-useless-move, Kirby would be perfect.