I agree, it's almost like Nintendo read the Kirby boards and decided to buff some of the things we've wanted the most. The "what buffs does Kirby need?" thread was kind of tl;dr, but the things I've wanted most were 1. Fthrow combos 2. fixed Jab 3. Inhale buffed so that it becomes safer to use, without becoming "OP" for Kirbycides. Well, it's now safer to use, and therefore better for Kirbycides, but whatever! The only other thing I wanted to make Kirby a truly good character is a safe KO setup, namely from throw combos, or from his KO throws actually being powerful... unfortunately, we didn't get that. His Upthrow doesn't need to be as strong as Charizard's, and his Backthrow doesn't need to be as strong as Ness', but still, they're too weak
and DI screws up Fthrow KO setups 100% of the time. Oh well, he now is a little safer, and does more damage from throws, so he's definitely more viable than before.
Anyone know if Copy Abilities changed? So like... does Greninja's copy ability have faster startup? Or does the change list include copy ability changes?
I didn't know about Greninja's shuriken change when I tested, but it seemed to be the same speed side-by-side with Kirby. Same with Luigi. Same with Sheik. That means he no longer has the pre-nerf Needles. Another one worth testing is Robin, I haven't tested that yet. They probably went through and made sure all of Kirby's Copy moves were the same frame data as the originals.
These buffs HAVE to make kirby more Viable right? I mean come on, his grab and throw game is almost like it was in Brawl, and it was among the best in that game.
If anything these buffs should either make him less underrated, or make him slightly higher in the tier list(maybe 1 or 2 spots couldn't hurt right?)
I think you're overrating his Brawl throw game. The "Gonzo Combo" (Fthrow, Upair, reverse Uptilt, Bair) did not actually work against people who knew how to DI it. Tangent: The thing about throws in Smash games is that the speed of the throw is actually extremely important, because it gives people time to prepare their DI. Example: all of Diddy Kong's throws in Smash 4 are, I believe, faster to execute than all of Kirby's throws, except possible Bthrow. If you expect an Up/Downthrow from Diddy, and he instead does a Bthrow/Fthrow, you might be holding the wrong direction before you can react, causing you to die by accident, earlier than you normally would. The speed of Kirby's throws screwed him over in both games: in Brawl, a knowledgeable player would get Fthrown, DI away, and then expect the Upair followup, and SDI that, leaving them out of range for the usual Uptilt followup. The same is happening in Smash 4: Kirby's Fthrow animation is long enough that players will already be holding away, ensuring that followups won't happen. Kirby's Dthrow and Upthrow have even longer animations, making it easier for opponents to DI correctly. Kirby's Bthrow is decently fast, but I would imagine people would still be able to DI it correctly.
Going off of instinct here so probably wrong. I know u-tilt to inhale was a possible combo before at low %s definitely seems that way now. Rev. Uair definitely combos into inhale at lowish %s, SHFF AC Uair and even Falling Uair probably works too now. Dont really know how fast Inhale is now but everytime I try to Dair > Inhale it has worked where before I know it didnt... so idk. I usually get my inhales from reads and stuff.
Someone here will prob come thru with some facts tho.
I believe Uptilt (at least sourspot?) to Inhale can work very well. I've been testing out Dair->Inhale on CPUs and a few FG matches, which I can barely play because my internet is screwed. It's definitely not guaranteed, unfortunately. Even with the faster startup, they can jump away or whatever before Inhale catches them. Speaking of which, I'm surprised by how noticeable 4 frames makes. The very first time I used Inhale in this patch, I noticed it started faster, and that was only 4 frames?!
Jab to Inhale is also a thing, but that's just a risky mixup. Honestly, Inhale generally still requires a read to land, which I guess is ok. His neutral game is objectively better though, because people won't be able to safely shield against him as easily, since he can throw out Inhale if they shield a lot and it's great :D
So when i was playing for online and waiting for the other player. I was playing around with the punching bag on the wait screen . For some reason the first two hits on kirbys rising fair sends the bag upwards kind of high. Havent tested in training mode but i thought that was weird
Yeah this has always happened. Some weird property of the sandbag, it never happens to players. Landing a falling Fair2 on offstage opponents has a pretty decent semi-spike going on though.
I'm in the process of making a list of F-throw → U-air, F-air, & N-air combos for all the characters. Stay tuned!
I know you already did it, but I think DI is super imperative for this list, for reasons I just mentioned >_<
I really hope this doesnt make kirby too braindead like luigi.
Nah, like I said, the DI messes it up at the critical percents. He definitely has useful true combos from his Fthrow at low to mid percents, but that's par for the course in Smash 4. He'd only be braindead if these combos did massive chunks of damage consistently (Luigi) and then lead into guaranteed kills at higher percents, requiring only an easy read of DI (Luigi..)
The most unfortunate thing, IMO, is that high % Fthrow doesn't even lead into "mixup, read, 50/50" situations, whatever you want to call them. There's no "Fthrow and read an airdodge and punish" situation, it's just "Fthrow, they DI away, and now they're out of range for anything I can do
Alright, so you can Fthrow into the footstool combo! Fthrow>Dair>sourspot Utilt>Reverse Utilt>Uair>Footstool to down b
Looking to be about 0~15% depending on fall speed. Characters with frame 3 nairs might be able to get out between the dair and first Utilt. Have only been testing on lvl9's in regular matches so far though.
The endlag was decreased a couple patches ago, unless this is an additional decrease
I tried Fthrow to footstool a little bit, but didn't test it much before I figured it was worthless. Feel free to prove me wrong, but it's super hard to get footstools even with no DI
, and Kirby has no good followup to footstools really. Also, I just reread your sentence, and realized you meant footstools to extend combos, not directly from the grab. Oops! Ok so at least we know Fthrow->Footstool is basically unviable.
Fthrow->Dair->Uptilt->Uptilt->Upair->Footstool->Stone sounds cool though. I don't know how much DI would screw those attacks up, but I do know that people can DI when they're footstooled, which means there's a good chance of the Stone finisher missing.
tl;dr Kirby buffs are good, now just need tiny little nerfs on a few characters and we're set! I haven't heard anything about customs being changed (aside from universal changes with their corresponding default moves) and I'm surprised, I would have been willing to bet money that Villager's customs would have been nerfed, and I've been surprisingly accurate with patches thus far. I guess they just want customs to die lol :[