Kirby Match-Up Advice thread!

[Gh0st.]

Okay, so this is a little off topic but after talking with Timmy on AiB, today I am motivated to share all my knowledge on my favorite mu...Kirby vs Peach.

First off I hope many of you will critique and of course this is coming from an intermediate Kirby player at best so please keep an open mind :3

Kirby vs Peach is, imo, even. Although, I do think this mu is highly based of momentum and go "gets" who first. Kirby can wall bairs and juggle Peach easier than she can juggle you but her dair wrecks our shield and can setup for some nasty combos. Patience is key to this mu as well as getting in damage while you can. I think the objective of noth players here is to keep eachother away and smother whenever possible. Peach can outcamp us but we can float and fairly easily dodge her turnips...just be careful of how and where you land. Peach's sweet-spotted usmash has killed me as early as 72% if I remember correctly. It's not a good idea to challenge her from above while she's grounded. Also, learning to catch her turnips is great, just be careful of your distance between you and her or else you might get faired. Kirby has an easier time killing her than she does you. You can duck her grab and Sideb but not the landing. Offstage you have the advantage but always be careful attempting to dair spike her as her parasoul can in turn stage spike you. Always be on the alert for all her buffering and glide tossing, it can catch you by surprise.

As for her ability, I personally like it :3 It helps me recover safer and gives me more time. It can be useful when being edgeguarded or predicting her attacks but a misread can end up bad for you. Overall, I'd say go for the star shot but if you DO take it, I'd say it is helpful in it's ways.

Well, I have more I can say but I'll stop here and see how it goes. Thanks for reading and hopefully people can add on/critique. Oh, ask questions please! :D

 

[Wumbo105]

Being grabbed seems to be a weak spot for Peach as well, since the trajectory of each of the throws puts her in an awkward spot relative to Kirby and his aerials.
Also, once you start to juggle her, don't stop. She has very few tools to stop you from doing it, just like she is very vulnerable once she's offstage (also take advantage of her poor ledge options). If you can help it, try to prevent her from recovering low, since this is when her umbrella makes her most safest.

This is what I've gathered from playing with Kyon kinda frequently. Any other Kirbys with the similar experience are welcome to add to it.

 

[hyoipear]

Our up-angled fsmash is a good kill option as it beats most of her approaches (correct me if i'm wrong) be it fair, dair or w/e. But i have little to no experience versus Peach so i shall not suggest any other methods of procedure

 

[Labernash]

Anybody got some tips for the Wario MU?

 

[MikeKirby]

Up tilt, up tilt!

Here watch this!
Kewkky Vs DFat1

Anything, in particular that troubles you though? In general, both sides have to play really a patient game.

 

[Labernash]

Okay, thanks! You weren't kidding when you said up-tilt, haha!

Nothing specific really; just curious as to the ideal way to play it.

 

[Vinylic.]

Oh wow, I've been doing the wario MU all wrong....

 

[Kewkky]

Huzzah, my old recorded match vs Wario was of help to people! Now if only I had a better one of me being more patient, me against a Diddy, and patiently playing against a Snake...


Yeah, you'd be surprised how much utilt wrecks Wario when you're under a platform. It's almost impossible for him to get to you, and at the start of a match when both are at 0%, as long as you utilt under a platform whenever he gets close, you're pretty much guaranteed to gain the advantage and keep it. Just gotta remember to watch out for his downBs, which is really the one thing you have to worry about the most. You really gotta be patient though, try not fsmashing at all during the match and instead use dsmash, bair and uthrow for your kills (don't use uthrow to keep it fresh, great kill option if you know how much damage they need first).

 

[yoshi8984]

Can someone give me advice on on Falco and Wolf please?

 

[Wumbo105]

Grab combos work like a charm. Duck under Falco's lasers, and space him with bairs. Get him offstage, cuz all of his recoveries put him in huge danger.
Wolf's bair outranges ours, so watch it. Utilts and uairs work pretty well for general spacing. Perfect-shield his lasers and punish. Learn all of his Scar ledge options so you know what to expect, the trickiness makes getting back up a bit easier for him.
Oh, and inhaling both of them is VERY helpful.

Theres much more info which you can easily find yourself (hint hint), but that's all I'm willing to write.

 

[Vinylic.]

If you still find falco's camping problematic, don't continue to pursue. Stay where you are.

Be wise when doing this as he can start approaching you at some point.

 

[Wumbo105]

That won't work if Falco is in the lead...you will have no choice but to pursue. The Falco would have no reason to approach a Kirby if he was winning, and a smart one will never approach.

 

[yoshi8984]

We try to bait their reflectors if we do inhale them? I don't have the best reactions the world so usually they're reflected back at me.

Also is Lylat a good stage against them? The tilting kinda screws up their lasers and recoveries.

 

[Kappy]

You can SHDL a Falco who reflects and duck under them as they're reflected, but that just ends in a stalemate. The best time to use Kirby's lasers are when Falco is recovering and his reflector isn't exactly the best option. You can also use them after landing a hit to extend damage or start a laser lock if they failed to tech the ground or AD into the ground. LOL

 

[Wumbo105]

Kappy's got the right idea. You shouldn't use lasers completely freely against a Falco.
And yea, Lylat can work, but its mostly preference. I for instance hate Lylat, and will never take anyone there.
Try taking Falco to Frigate. Works well for me.

 

[falln]

dont take falcos power its a free stock every time you inhale him near the edge wahhhh

 

[t!MmY]

Kirby dies on the same frame, so I wouldn't really call it a 'free' stock.

 

[falln]

either you inhale him on stage facing way from the edge which means you can time your drop with the opponent's mashing so he releases and you gimp him, or you inhale him off stage facing towards the stage in which case you can starshot him underneath for a free stock

it really is pretty much always a free stock

 

[t!MmY]

I guess I'm just used to players who are experienced against Swallowcide. But it's always fun when I run into a random and they end up killing themselves by button mashing. XD

 

[falln]

it doesnt have much to do with experience. vs falco specifically the data is completely in kirby's favor

 

[Wumbo105]

I can't remember...does falco's phantasm go thru Kirby inhale or does he get sucked in? I havent played in a good month man...

 

[t!MmY]

it doesnt have much to do with experience. vs falco specifically the data is completely in kirby's favor

Wait, when did we start talking about experience affecting the match-up? I didn't say anything about it being in anyone's favor, Kirby or Falco. I was obviously talking about experience in the role of dealing with Swallowcides. I feel only someone who doesn't know what to do in such a situation would ever lose a stock from a Swallowcide without at the least taking a stock from Kirby as well. In this instance, it has everything to do with experience vs. Kirby.

@Wumbo
You can usually expect Falco's Phantasm to hit through Kirby's Inhale. That thing only gets stopped in a handful of ways.

 

[falln]

im not talking about the matchup im talking very specifically with regards to swallowciding falco. falco is pretty much completely helpless until he hits the % where back air hits hard enough to allow him to tech a wall or something.

this is something im very consistent with and when your opponent knows "what to do in such a situation" it goes something along the lines of "don't get inhaled"

if falco is escaping or if you're dying then you 100% doing it wrong

 

[Kewkky]

im not talking about the matchup im talking very specifically with regards to swallowciding falco. falco is pretty much completely helpless until he hits the % where back air hits hard enough to allow him to tech a wall or something.

this is something im very consistent with and when your opponent knows "what to do in such a situation" it goes something along the lines of "don't get inhaled"

if falco is escaping or if you're dying then you 100% doing it wrong

What if you inhale Falco and he doesn't mash out? Now you both lost a stock, instead of only Falco losing a stock. That's a smarter way of dealing with the problem when you slip up and get inhaled.

That's what I'm thinking t1mmy meant.

 

[falln]

What if you inhale Falco and he doesn't mash out? Now you both lost a stock, instead of only Falco losing a stock. That's a smarter way of dealing with the problem when you slip up and get inhaled.

That's what I'm thinking t1mmy meant.

luckily you're sitting right next to your opponent so you can tell the degree in which the falco player is matching and you can adjust your timings of when to carry him off stage accordingly. It's really not difficult.

 

[Vinylic.]

I was thinking just that, but what about spitting him out under the stage?

 

[falln]

you can spit him out underneath the stage if you're already off stage and facing the right way when you get him in your belly. trying to do that backwards jump on stage so you're still facing the right way with falco inhaled gives him too much time to break out

 

[Kewkky]

luckily you're sitting right next to your opponent so you can tell the degree in which the falco player is matching and you can adjust your timings of when to carry him off stage accordingly. It's really not difficult.

But what if he DOESN'T mash? Or just presses one button every second or two or something? to bait you into jumping offstage with him (since he knows that when you jump offstage, you can't save yourself unless he breaks out)?

 

[t!MmY]

If Falco is Inhaled on-stage and you have to walk off, then he can break out before you can turn around and take a step off the ledge. This isn't even based on 'maximum input' for breaking out either, but simply based on a normal player who is competent at breaking out of grabs/inhale.

If Falco is Inhaled off-stage, Kirby's descent will take them both off-stage and both will lose a stock before any 'auto break free' occurs. In other words, when the opponent sees this situation he/she can simply choose to input nothing and take a stock from Kirby.

If Falco is caught with a Ledge-Hopped Swallow he can choose to not press any inputs (as above), but then Kirby can use Star Shot and send him under the stage. At this point, Falco can ride the Star Shot completely under-stage and then use his recovery to go for the ledge on the other side, which Kirby is unable to do anything about (barring any Hat he might have). Yes, Falco can make it to the other side of Smashville or Battlefield in this way, but not Final Destination (at least I've never seen a Falco make it to the other side of FD, but other characters have).

All this is sort of moot to me though because real games usually go like this:

Opponent is unfamiliar with the Kirby match-up. Runs into Inhale and gets Kirbycided (most of the time Kirby also survives).

-or-

Opponent has experience with the Kirby match-up. He doesn't get caught by Inhale shenanigans because you can see them coming a mile away.

 

[Kappy]

I'm just gonna throw this out there, but if you have a stock lead and any of this happens it is much more likely to be a "free" stock because most players will mash if they are Inhaled and don't have the stock lead. Hell, if they have a huge % lead they won't want to lose a stock to Kirbycide anyway because it resets all the work they just put in. LOL.

Also, Timmy, Chu, Falln, and tons of other Kirbies have gotten an Inhale on good players who arguably know the Kirby MU thanks to playing them often. You make it sound like they never get an Inhale and never ever get a stock off of it, which is definitely not true. Maybe your experiences point you to never taking a stock against someone who knows how to play Kirby, but I guarantee top-level play has Kirbies taking stocks for free. Sure, they mess up and nothing happens (or they even lose a stock), but it is for sure not an absolute that Kirby cannot take a stock using Inhale against experienced players, so I don't see why Inhale is moot to you. I think it's pretty relevant to discuss.

 

[falln]

But what if he DOESN'T mash? Or just presses one button every second or two or something? to bait you into jumping offstage with him (since he knows that when you jump offstage, you can't save yourself unless he breaks out)?

that's what people have been trying to do when i get the inhale on stage but you can still tell when itll be enough inputs to get them to break out. hard to fake mashing

If Falco is Inhaled on-stage and you have to walk off, then he can break out before you can turn around and take a step off the ledge. This isn't even based on 'maximum input' for breaking out either, but simply based on a normal player who is competent at breaking out of grabs/inhale.

this is a false statement.

If Falco is Inhaled off-stage, Kirby's descent will take them both off-stage and both will lose a stock before any 'auto break free' occurs. In other words, when the opponent sees this situation he/she can simply choose to input nothing and take a stock from Kirby.

again, if you inhale someone off stage that means you're already facing the stage which gives you the option of starshotting them underneath the stage. no reason to go for an inhale release if you inhale them off stage.

If Falco is caught with a Ledge-Hopped Swallow he can choose to not press any inputs (as above), but then Kirby can use Star Shot and send him under the stage. At this point, Falco can ride the Star Shot completely under-stage and then use his recovery to go for the ledge on the other side, which Kirby is unable to do anything about (barring any Hat he might have). Yes, Falco can make it to the other side of Smashville or Battlefield in this way, but not Final Destination (at least I've never seen a Falco make it to the other side of FD, but other characters have).

luckily, there are a couple things you can do about this.

1. when you spit them out you do it as close to the ceiling as possible to mitigate the vertical lift they get from coming out of the little star. (this also prevents falco from making it back on battlefield)

2. follow them (kirby can keep up with most characters that you would be doing this to, actually) and gimp them out of their recovery or stagespike them with a uair or something. doesn't even matter if they're techmaster9000 its still an awful situation for a character like falco to be in.

the main reason this is so good on falco is the start up time for his up b. even if you starshot him sub-optimally and he has a chance to up b, you can (depending on the %), do hit 1 of fair or a weak bair to set you up for either an edgehog or dair spike.

All this is sort of moot to me though because real games usually go like this:

Opponent is unfamiliar with the Kirby match-up. Runs into Inhale and gets Kirbycided (most of the time Kirby also survives).

-or-

Opponent has experience with the Kirby match-up. He doesn't get caught by Inhale shenanigans because you can see them coming a mile away.

I had a relatively snarky response for this but kappy's post was pretty spot-on so fortunately I don't need to say much else

 

[Triple R]

this is a false statement.

Huh? He said if you inhale onstage and you have to turn around and walk off the character can escape before you leave the stage. This is completely true. If you inhale onstage, getting offstage with them still in your mouth is not guaranteed.

If someone starts mashing as soon as they see themselves get sucked in, they will get out. I'm going to have to agree with Timmy on that point.

 

[falln]

if you inhale on the edge you 100% have the time to make it off to do your chain. how close to the edge depends on the mashing of the opponent but you most certainly have the time to turn around and take 1 step

 

[t!MmY]

this is a false statement.

You'll have to explain why, otherwise I will maintain my statement as true.

no reason to go for an inhale release if you inhale them off stage.

I used to think this too, until opponents simply recovered to the other side of the stage using the Star Shot as an extra jump. At first it was done by people who played my Kirby often and learned to do it, then it was by people up in WA who eventually caught up to the strategy and started doing it too.

1. when you spit them out you do it as close to the ceiling as possible to mitigate the vertical lift they get from coming out of the little star. (this also prevents falco from making it back on battlefield)

It's not the vertical drift that helps them recover, it's the horizontal distance they get from the Star Shot itself when not breaking out early.

2. follow them (kirby can keep up with most characters that you would be doing this to, actually)

Even if Kirby had excellent air mobility he still has quite a bit of delay after using a Star Shot during which the opponent is being shot away from him as he drops further away from the target. So I'm guessing this is only if the opponent is trying to recover back to the ledge where Kirby is closest.

Spoiler

Spoiler: Kirby has terrible air mobility.

tl;dr

If you want to guarantee a Swallowcide on your opponent, you're going to be taking the plunge with him. If you suspect that he lacks experience in such a situation, go for the Star Shot and pwn him when he fails at responding to it. Star Shot is also a good option when the opponent is going to break free and you don't get a guaranteed Footstool out of it.

Also, player "skill" is not always enough to deal with Swallowcide since I've pulled it off on 'good' players. I've also had 'not so good players' escape from it. The reason is some people know what to do, and others do not. (I still run across 'good' players who cannot SDI out of Kirby's F-throw -> U-air combo for instance).

 

[Vinylic.]

It also feels pretty good when doing that. I'll never get tired of people going "OOOH" when I do something cool.

 

[falln]

you can maintain your statement as true all you want, i've made my point and if people want to listen to you then all the power to them.


finally the idea that kirby's air mobility isnt enough to chase a FALCO UNDERNEATH THE STAGE is just absurd

 

[t!MmY]

I understand what you're saying, and I see things very similar to the way you're saying. I think we're just talking about different circumstances and situations because I would agree with what you say in most cases. Not every situation is the same, so I figure there has to be someone to mention the differences to give a complete picture.

I don't think using written letters is a good enough medium to express myself if you're using capital letters to emphasize how you see my thoughts as 'absurd'. I can see quite well what I'm talking about, and I can see quite well what you're talking about, but my apologies if I cannot elucidate well enough to make my points clearer for you.

I will just have to stand with my original 'tl;dr' that, generally speaking, if you catch someone with Inhale as you drop off-stage they can let Kirby drop with them (no inputs); if you catch someone on-stage, they should have enough time to break free; and, if you spit them under the stage, you give them a chance of recovering to the other side.

That's about as clear as I can make it, and if anyone disagrees with it that doesn't mean I automatically disagree in return, but rather we're just looking at things from different perspectives. I'm fully open to discussion and different views.

 

[Kawaii Poyo]

Yoooooooooooooo

Someone teach me how to recover in Kirby vs MK (or just vs MK in general, I'm really bad at it). I've been getting more comfortable vs MK lately. Like difficulty killing hasn't been annoying me like it used to and I can handle patient MKs now as well, but the problem is like... I am THE WORST at getting back on stage from being offstage or in the air.

Like I played my brother in a lot of Kirby vs MK friendlies last night and only won one of them (we played about 6 or 7 or so) but at least more than half the games I lost, I'd have him at last stock, in mid or kill percent (at least 60%+ every time) then he'd either get me in the air/offstage and I'd either take 60%+ trying to recover making it even again or in his favor or just not make it back and lose. I feel recovering is the only part of this match-up I dislike right now, but other than that, I enjoy fighting MK on the ground, I like the spacing, etc.

So yeah... I need to learn.

I MUST RECOVER!

 

[Kappy]

Recovering high is usually your best bet, especially if the MK is aggressive and tries to pursue you because you can rock and recover out of it before he gets back to you (or he might take the hit. LOL). I like to recover low and defend myself with rising Uair, although I've gotten smack for it since it is risky, but I've had great success with it

 

[Kewkky]

Recovering high is usually your best bet, especially if the MK is aggressive and tries to pursue you because you can rock and recover out of it before he gets back to you (or he might take the hit. LOL). I like to recover low and defend myself with rising Uair, although I've gotten smack for it since it is risky, but I've had great success with it

Same thing for me usually. Even the MK gets scared that they might do something stupid and gimp themselves while trying to gimp us, so they tend to spend more time worrying about not getting too far offstage instead of keeping an eye on our uairs. Recovering from up high is good too, and if you run out of jumps but are aboge the stage, don't hesitate to downB towards the stage to recover your jumps.