Kirby Match-Up Advice thread!

[Kewkky]

Ahhhhhh, didn't even think of endlag.
Thank you very much, but I can't help but wonder when you sleep. ^^;

I'm supposed to be sleeping, but man, stuck to this game. Can't stop until i beat this one boss!

 

[Triple R]

I always felt like ftilt and dtilt were about the same distance, but I actually never tested and measured or anything really. Kewkky's probably right saying ftilt is slightly longer. I really don't have much Oli experience. He's kinda annoying. Pikmin spam isn't really a problem. It's just about avoiding his grab and smashes.

 

[Kappy]

Ftilt is probably really good against Olimar's throws if you time it correctly. The funny thing about Olimar's grab is that if something can reach him, you can hit him during the grab. That's because Olimar has no grab armor. So, if Ftilt does reach him out of a pivot grab, then (theoretically speaking) you could time it well so that every time you're about to get grabbed you throw it out and stop him from grabbing you.

 

[Sky Pirate]

Yep! No grab armor, no priority, no recovery, no love from other character mains. The life of an Olimar.
I doubt it needed saying, though. That's been common knowledge since '08.

Played around with it for a bit.
Dtilt seems to have about the same horizontal range as Ftilt angled up or down. Normal Ftilt has a liiiiittle more range than Dtilt. It's not much, but it's there.

 

[aqua421]

can anyone share some stellar tips and advice against pikachu?

 

[t!MmY]

If you're facing a campy Pikachu, run in and Perfect Shield the 'bolts (they're surprisingly easy to Perfect Shield). After you do Pikachu should have enough lag for you to run in and get a counter attack on him (if you're too far away, just move in and Perfect Shield the next 'bolt).

Avoid putting yourself in a position where you would get grabbed when you're at low percents (like under 30%) because Pika can F-throw into a dashing U-smash which can add a good amount of damage.

When you're at higher percents, just watch out for his KO attacks. Newbies like to show off their 'tech skill' by going for Quick Attack cancel into N-air, more savvy Pika players will still try to hit with N-air but they won't be so obvious about it. If the player is the direct and aggressive type, he might just try the classic "Run in and U-smash and hope it hits". If you're playing safe and you know the match-up you can make it very difficult for Pikachu to land a KO attack and end up living to high percents.

Oh, and about that Quick Attack Cancel (QAC)...
If you think Pikachu is going to QAC at you (usually canceling into a N-air to get the KO as stated above) you can throw a F-smash into it's trajectory and usually net yourself a KO. If you think the Pikachu player is going to miss you completely, you can correct their distancing by dashing in to the path of the QAC and send out a U-smash which also makes for a great KO move on Pikachu.

Pika is pretty easy to combo and predict so this match-up is a lot of fun. This would totally be in Kirby's favor if not for a couple things (Pikachu's got way better mobility and priority, and he's also got a really good recovery which makes it difficult for Kirby to intercept off-stage).

PS:
Do not 'Tumble Cancel' if you're in the path of a Thunder. If you're being sent vertically up, wait for Pikachu to start up the Thunder before you air dodge. If you do it too early you'll lose your invincibility and end up getting hit. A good timing is to wait to hear "Pika!" before air dodging (note that this is the timing I use for in-person games, I don't know anything about wifi timing).

 

[aqua421]

alright thanks t!mmy. do you know if we can footstool pikachu out of an inhale break?

 

[t!MmY]

I believe the answer is yes, but that's just off the top of my head. I think there's a thread around here somewhere that has a list of Inhale break data.

 

[Naisora]

I still have sooo much trouble with Ness...this won't be enough, anyone else has a link to a more err...detailed matchup overview?

 

[Kewkky]

I still have sooo much trouble with Ness...this won't be enough, anyone else has a link to a more err...detailed matchup overview?

I was writing some detailed matchup overviews before, but ended at about the 5th character on tier list V5. When the BBR started the MU Chart project and decided we were going to do the same thing, I realized I didn't have my computer with me and only have a phone to use. So, once I get my computer, you can expect me to get to writing the MU analysis for the remaining characters. All I can tell you is for you to be patient (like I have been with this damn company! Seriously, it's been over a freakin' MONTH! I'm gonna call them monday ASAP during their first business hours, geez).

 

[MikeKirby]

Hmm well for starters MarioFan, what part of the match-up you seem to have difficulty with?

 

[falln]

I still have sooo much trouble with Ness...this won't be enough, anyone else has a link to a more err...detailed matchup overview?

dont let anyone tell you this is an easy matchup it's hard as ****. this is from someone who's met up with FOW in bracket twice in the last two months and primarily practice with vicegrip since moving to santa barbara.

first off, learn the spacing of his fair and dair because if he so much as chips you with fair once it combos into so many things and thats where you're going to be taking all your damage and then he kills you with bthrow at 100 and youll be confused. for spacing do all your aerials and stuff either retreating or straight up and down. drifting into him while attacking (even if it's still properly spaced) doesn't quite work because he can throw out a preemptive fair and then combo it into more bull****.

dair is really good in this matchup. the dash grab grab release is not worth it. don't get pressured into shield and dont rely on rolls or spotdodges because ness has a lot of lingering/safe on shield **** so that's where he really shines.

also when going for the kill use dsmash over fsmash in general because ness lands tricky and he can get out of range of fsmash a lot of the time and dsmash also lingers more so you can use it earlier for better option coverage. unless of course you know for a fact you're going to land the fsmash in which case go for it ofc but ness punishes mistakes really really hard so its best to default to the safer options

me vs fow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3bO7JnCkRw

 

[Kmatt]

I was thinking up something before, how viable is it to copy Lucas' power (PK Freeze)? I'm not sure how dual-stick mechanics change how fast you can escape ice, but would it be possible to follow up a successful freeze with a heavy-hitting move w/ startup lag? Maybe a Hammer or Up/Forward smash.

 

[Sarix]

I was thinking up something before, how viable is it to copy Lucas' power (PK Freeze)? I'm not sure how dual-stick mechanics change how fast you can escape ice, but would it be possible to follow up a successful freeze with a heavy-hitting move w/ startup lag? Maybe a Hammer or Up/Forward smash.

I was playing around as Kirby and went against a Lucas player and when I copied PK Freeze I didn't find it that useful. I found the startup lag for the crystal just to ascend before I could move it enough for him to punish me pretty hard.

 

[Kewkky]

Yeah, it's not that useful. I don't think inhale is useful at all in that MU. Against Ness it's a little more useful, but still kinda useless to use.

 

[falln]

the risk reward of going for inhale is not in your favor vs ness. its like going for a grab as samus. if you land it tight you do a little bit of dmg but if you **** up and miss you get ***** for it

 

[Sarix]

the risk reward of going for inhale is not in your favor vs ness. its like going for a grab as samus. if you land it tight you do a little bit of dmg but if you **** up and miss you get ***** for it

Being a Samus main I totally agree with this message.

 

[t!MmY]

this is from someone who's met up with FOW in bracket twice in the last two months and primarily practice with vicegrip since moving to santa barbara.

Vicegrip is a totally awesome guy, you're so lucky to get to hang out with him so much. -^_^-

I remember him telling me that the match vs Kirby was hard. He also told me that Ness's F-air didn't have enough range against Kirby and I was like:
0_o;
and he was like:

Because Vicegrip is always happy and smiling.
I think he said that it was because Ness's F-air is only safe when retreating from Kirby and I was like 'Well, you're the Ness main so... I guess.'

Regardless the Kirby-Ness match up is a lot of fun!

 

[yoshi8984]

Uh sorry for the bump but I kinda want to say a few things about the Ness MU. I don't go to tourneys and not many of my friends play smash so uh my advice may not be the greatest =P

Ness's FAir has good range and he will use it. A lot.

Don't spam Up-B to force him to approach, as he can heal from the projectile with his PSI Magnet. Also his PSI Magnet does have a wind effect, so he might (un)intentionally make your attacks miss with it.

Ness's B-Throw is a good killer and will kill Kirby early since he's so light. His grab range might be small, but if he gets you and you're in kill percent, you're dead.

When Ness recovers, try to use an aerial (or stone) and hit the HEAD of his PKT. (won't cancel if you hit the tail) Though be careful if you get hit by the tail, you might get hit by his PKT2. His PKT has very poor priority and then he'll fall to his doom.

Don't copy Ness's PK Flash, it's not worth it... The time it takes for you to use it is enough time for Ness to heal from it. Also, using it in the air will make you in the helpless state and will most likely give Ness a free hit (or worse a KO >__<) on you. Also to use it fully charged (then again, not a good idea) you will have to use up (I think) 2 jumps on a flat stage. Short hopping will not make it fully charged.

Ness has some other KO moves, like his Bair, Nair, Utilt, Uair, Dair and more. However most of his attacks short range.

If you get hit by PKF, SDI out of quickly, as Ness will usually go for the grab while you're trapped in it.

Do not stay in your Stone formation for long, as Ness can PKF it then use his grab, getting some extra damage while grabbing you.

Again, my advice isn't the best, but hopefully this helped (I know I said more about Ness than I did about Kirby, but I'm not really the best with Kirby )

 

[Wumbo105]

Hooray for reactivating threads.

I was gong over the offcial Matchup chart, and I decided I would bring up some issues that I personally see, in hopes to start some type of constructive discussion.

First off...after fighting 3-4 different Diddys in this area, I firmly believe the matchup is solidly in Diddy's favor. I have no idea how they decided to make it 0/0. I know Kirby has the ability to gimp him well offstage due to Diddy's recovery, but...have fun trying to get him offstage =/. Any thoughts?

Second, I noticed the Wario matchup is +1 in his favor. I'd like to argue that it's a pretty even matchup. Our u-tilt pretty much stops any aerial approach he decides to do, and he has just about the same range as us, if not less (thanks to our disjointed feet). I haven't fought many Warios, or any great ones for that matter, but I can't visualize any glaring problems with the match.

Have at it.

 

[Kewkky]

Hooray for reactivating threads.

I was gong over the offcial Matchup chart, and I decided I would bring up some issues that I personally see, in hopes to start some type of constructive discussion.

First off...after fighting 3-4 different Diddys in this area, I firmly believe the matchup is solidly in Diddy's favor. I have no idea how they decided to make it 0/0. I know Kirby has the ability to gimp him well offstage due to Diddy's recovery, but...have fun trying to get him offstage =/. Any thoughts?

From my experiences, it's a pretty close-to-even MU.

Second, I noticed the Wario matchup is +1 in his favor. I'd like to argue that it's a pretty even matchup. Our u-tilt pretty much stops any aerial approach he decides to do, and he has just about the same range as us, if not less (thanks to our disjointed feet). I haven't fought many Warios, or any great ones for that matter, but I can't visualize any glaring problems with the match.

The only problem with Wario is his farts. Even when fully charged, it's still a surprise kill anywhere, on the ground, in the air, on- or off-stage, at that moment when you make a mistake and he's at a close-enough distance to punish you (which he, thanks to his fast aerial mobility, has a few ways of getting you to make mistakes).

I agree, get under a platform and utilt to your heart's content, he has no safe way of approaching Kirby, while our utilt/bair outrange all of his approaches (minus bike). But he still has is very reliable kill move (down B), while we don't have a reliable kill move at all. Without the fart, this would definitely be an even MU, only because of his aerial mobility and speed being faster than both our ground and air speed.

 

[MikeKirby]

I wouldn't say Kirby has no reliable kill move on Wario. An air grab release to U-smash or up angled F-smash can seal the stock. Although, a smart Wario can force a ground release... Unless I'm doing something wrong. But yeah +1 Wario's favor because of his fart.

 

[Kewkky]

I wouldn't say Kirby has no reliable kill move on Wario. An air grab release to U-smash or up angled F-smash can seal the stock. Although, a smart Wario can force a ground release... Unless I'm doing something wrong. But yeah +1 Wario's favor because of his fart.

That would require a grab though, right?

 

[Wumbo105]

Well damn, is one move enough to put it in his favor? I mean it's just a matter or dodging it, which isn't impossible. Plus, its only a threat periodically, its gotta charge. If it was a constant fear then I would say okay.

 

[MikeKirby]

You're right!
Hah, ok moderate set-up.

 

[Kappy]

Fart is an unreliable game-changer, but you can't forget that Wario has Fsmash, Ftilt, Uair, and Bair (sometimes) when it comes to killing, and Kirby's way lighter than Wario is, so a mistake that could cost Kirby a stock won't cost Wario a stock at the same %. Couple with with Bite and a better Bait and Punish game with his better ground and Air speed, and you've got yourself a +1 MU.

Really, if you think about it, Wario's a better version of Kirby. It'd make sense that it's a little in Wario's favor. LOL.

 

[Kewkky]

Well damn, is one move enough to put it in his favor? I mean it's just a matter or dodging it, which isn't impossible. Plus, its only a threat periodically, its gotta charge. If it was a constant fear then I would say okay.

While he's playing the MU however it is that the Wario main wants to play it, he's charging up a kill move that can be used anywhere, including to trade hits or to beat out our attacks. It's so menacing that once we know Wario has a fart strong enough to kill us, we have to change the way we play to avoid Wario from setting up for a fart with dair, or avoid making any mistakes for fear of dying from a punishment; we play like if the MU was in our disadvantage, like how we play against Snake while we're at 110%+, or against Fox at 90%, or against G&W at 80%+, or against ICs at 0% (etc), extremely careful to avoid a quick unwanted stock loss, as is with any of our disadvantaged MUs. His fart's kill power is no joke, one that is almost fully charged can kill us at ~40-50%. That's us playing it safe on the ground or in the air while trying to maintain an advantage, both on- and off-stage.

Not to mention he CAN time us out. We can't catch up to him if he starts running away in a stage with lots of platforms, he outspeeds us both on the ground and in the air.

 

[Wumbo105]

I guess all that makes sense. I mean i can definitely see why/how its a +1 for him, i just want it to be proven to me. How my mind works i guess lol.
Now all i need is some Diddy closure.

 

[Kewkky]

I guess all that makes sense. I mean i can definitely see why/how its a +1 for him, i just want it to be proven to me. How my mind works i guess lol.
Now all i need is some Diddy closure.

I dunno how to convince you about Diddy, though. All I can talk about is along the lines of "what I've done against Diddies has worked so far, but I haven't played against the top Diddies yet". The MU rating just ended up being mutual agreement between both sides' majority.

 

[t!MmY]

It's certainly not a purely even match-up with Wario. Yes Kirby's attacks are about on par with Wario's in terms of reach, but that's not enough to make it even. Wario's aerial speed (and Kirby's lack thereof) is more than enough to put the ball in his court. On top of that, Kirby is a lightweight and Wario packs wickedly strong attacks. Kirby will generally get Wario to 150%+ before landing a KO unless you can get a fortunate F-smash around 120% or a lucky gimp.

+1 to Wario. Here's me vs Pwneroni's Wario for reference. I feel the only reason I won was because of the AMAZING gimp I got on the first stock and because I played solidly my next two stock.

Kirby vs Diddy...
+1 to Diddy. At the least.
(i.e. Diddy's going to have the advantage, even more so depending on how skilled the Kirby is with banana's and the match-up in general)

 

[Wumbo105]

Kirby vs Diddy...
+1 to Diddy. At the least.
(i.e. Diddy's going to have the advantage, even more so depending on how skilled the Kirby is with banana's and the match-up in general)

My thoughts exactly. Apparently it's not true at all, though.

 

[Kewkky]

I cannot stress this enough, Kirbies should learn how to use items. Try practicing:

*z-catching items and insta-throwing (both lead to different option pools),
*powershield timing for items and learning how small your shield can be before the items poke through your shield (super important for all MUs involving items),
*how to catch a grounded item as you land on it (again, super important),
*when to throw items and when to z-drop them for the bouncing hitboxes and different fallspeeds (very useful with almost every item, as you're not forced into throw animations and sometimes different speeds can force different reactions from an opponent),
*how to perform jump-cancelled item throws (JCIT, while holding an item and running, jump and a split-second later, throw an item with the c-stick in any direction),
etc etc etc...

Item game isn't too difficult. Play against friends or computers with lots of items you can catch and throw around, you don't have to feel forced to using characters like Diddy or ZSS just to learn items. Try and be creative with the ways you use them too, don't just limit yourself to throwing them towards the opponent or off-stage. I sometimes z-drop armor pieces onto slants as ZSS (like the Delfino platforms) so their hitboxes stay active while I keep pressuring my opponents, to try and catch them shielding or spot-dodging.

MUs like Diddy and ZSS shouldn't be gauged by who can use items better, and if you lose in a match against them, blaming your lack of item-use knowledge, or the opponents' item control prowess, is another way of saying "I don't practice and unrealistically expect myself to do great".


If both Kirby and Diddy have roughly the same item control skills, what makes you think it's still a +1 for Diddy, Wumbo?

 

[Wumbo105]

I think its a +1 because coupled with Diddy having faster movement speed on the ground and air, along with actually having a reliable glide toss, a Diddy can do much more to a Kirby than a Kirby can to Diddy, given his moveset, and assuming they have equal item control skills.

 

[Kewkky]

I think its a +1 because coupled with Diddy having faster movement speed on the ground and air, along with actually having a reliable glide toss, a Diddy can do much more to a Kirby than a Kirby can to Diddy, given his moveset, and assuming they have equal item control skills.

I don't see how a Diddy can do "much more to Kirby, than a Kirby can to Diddy". It's not an easy MU for Diddy if Kirby knows how to play it thanks to his multiple jumps and fast tilts. Glide tossing doesn't give Diddy an advantage, all it really does is move Diddy while throwing items. We already know the insides and outs to glide tossing and how far Diddy can go, so coupled with our multiple jumps and options when looking to land, we can outmaneuver his item game, and pressure him into thinking we're trying to try an offensive approach by feinting landings outside of his maximum range (footsies, burst spacing, or whatever it is SWF is calling it these days).

It's really something I can't convince people with unless I have a video of me playing, or they see me playing in a match against Diddies. :/

 

[Wumbo105]

I want you to play GDX when u go to the tourney next week, and hopefully he'll record em and upload it.
This seems like something thats more of a visual situation to me.

 

[t!MmY]

A better Glide Toss definitely gives Diddy an advantage in the match-up just as much as a faster aerial/ground speed does. Anything that is 'better' than the opposing character is an advantage.

Being able to jump multiple times can help, but it's not like he can stay in the air forever. Kirby only gets five mid-air Jumps and then he drops right back down where Diddy will be waiting with a banana.

Kirby's Tilts are decent, but Diddy's are just as good if not overall better. They're used in the same ways, but Diddy's will combo at low percents and KO at high percents. Kirby loses his combo game after the opponent has about 20% on him and his Tilts will not KO (except well over 200%).

"Outmaneuvering his item game", "pressure him", and "feint landings" all fall under the category of "playing better than the opponent". I don't see any Kirby-specific advantages to simply out-playing your opponent. I do, however, see plenty of Diddy-specific advantages in this match-up, such as Kirby being much easier to punish, easier to pressure, out-ranged, out-sped, and out out-camped.

I can understand how Kirby doesn't get countered by Diddy simply by being patient and playing a very smart game, but I really can't see this as an even match-up. I'm not just talking out of my hat on this one since I've played plenty of good Diddys over the years (Gnes, Alpha Zealot, Nannerz, Felix, Dekar), not to mention Thrilla Gorilla who has a very proficient Diddy.
______________
Additional Edit
--------------------
Some frame data:
U-tilt
Kirby: hits 4-10
Diddy: hits 6-12

D-tilt
Kirby: hits 4-7
Diddy: hits 4-6

F-tilt
Kirby: hits 5-8
Diddy: hits 10-13

B-air
Kirby: hits 6-20
Diddy: hits 5-8

F-air
Kirby: 10-11
Diddy: 6-9

U-air
Kirby: 10-15
Diddy: 3-7

D-air
Kirby: 18+
Diddy: 13-15

 

[Kappy]

You guys are diving straight into player vs player. There are a few things you can safely argue in an MU - IMO: kill power (fresh and stale), gimping ability, aerial and ground speed, priority, and range. Everything else is pretty much player vs player, and can't be argued for a MU because MU's are transcended by exceptional players.

The reason for this is because people space differently and use moves at different times. You can't say someone's out-sped if they're reading well-enough to stay ahead. This is why slow characters like Ike/Bowser/hell, even Ganondorf can sometimes pull out and win a game or a set, nor can you say someone's easily pressured or punished if the player doesn't falter under that pressure and handles himself well enough to not be punished easily.

So, with that in mind, let's look at what I said is 'safe' to argue in a MU:

Kill Power (fresh and stale):

Kirby can kill Diddy with: Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, Bair, Uair, and Aerial Hammer. He can be expected to die ~110% - 130% from Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, Bair, and Hammer. He'll die ~170% from Uair if hit on the ground.

Diddy, on the other hand, has Dsmash, Fsmash, Fair, and Uair as his primary kill moves. Dsmash and Fsmash will probably kill ~130% - 140%. His Fair should kill ~120% - 130%, and Uair will kill ~150% from the ground.

So, looking at that, it's safe to say that they're about even in kill power when their moves are fresh. By extension, this will also mena that they'll be even around stale %'s since they both have a way to refresh easily (and both have at least two killing smashes and aerials).

Gimping Ability:

Diddy has Side-B -> Footstool and Dair to gimp. Kirby has Inhale -> Star Shot, Inhale -> Release -> Bair, the actual Kirbycide, Bair, Dair, and Fair to gimp Diddy's recovery.

Kirby has way more options that Diddy does to effectively gimp, and because Kirby has 5 jumps, gimping him becomes that much harder. Kirby wins gimping.

Aerial and Ground Speed:

It's safe to say that Diddy is faster both in the air and on the ground. Diddy wins here.

Priority:

Kirby's Bair and Uair goes through Diddy's Side-B, his UpB, and trades with all of his aerials. His smashes trade or go through Diddy's aerials and Side-B, and clank with his smashes. His tilts clank with Diddy's smashes, but Diddy's aerials go through them.

I'd say that's about even for priority.

Range:

Both Kirby's and DIddy's aerials are pretty short-ranged, which means they don't necessarily out-range each other. Diddy has bananas, which do extend his range, but they also extend Kirby's (assuming both players have the same 'item skill'). Kirby's longest move is Fsmash when standing still. Diddy's is Fair. Kirby has moving Fair for moving and attacking, which loses to Diddy's Fair, and has retreating Bair, which wins against Diddy's Bair (as far as range is concerned).

Kirby grab range is bigger than Diddy's when standing, as well as pivot grabbing. If Diddy runs up and tries to grab Kirby, Kirby can grab him first.

I'd say they're about even in range since Diddy has superior aerial and ground speed.

Based on that, that's

Kill Power: 0
Gimping: +1 Kirby
Aerial and Ground Speed: +1 Diddy
Priority: 0
Range: 0

And that's why I think Kirby/Diddy is even.

 

[Wumbo105]

T!mmy pretty much said what i wanted to say with actual factual backup.
Kappy, that definitely makes sense, but in this specific matchup, that +1 in aerial and ground speed weighs relatively more than the +1 in gimping, being that it only applies for when offstage activity happens.

 

[Kappy]

I disagree. Every part of the flow of the match (on-stage -> edge -> offstage) is just as important as the other for every MU in the game. If you fail in one department, you could cost yourself the game/set, so gimping and air/ground speed weigh the same. Citing Kirby/Diddy as one specific MU where air/ground speed weighs more than gimping is wrong.

And I just checked, but Kirby has about the same air speed as Diddy. LOL. I don't know how credible SmashWikia is, but it was the first thing that popped up that showed the air speeds of characters. Kirby's is 91 and Diddy's is 87 according to the chart there...although I have no idea what scale they're using. LOL.

 

[hyoipear]

Speaking of the bananas importance in the MU, don't forget that Diddy is the one spawning them. Diddy brings out bananas as he pleases, which gives him the initial control. Diddy also has the option of retreating from the regular offensive game popular amongst Diddys, to instead play defensively with bananas and popgun in a way Kirby cannot. Assuming Kirby plays a reactive punishing or approaching game, Diddy can mix his options to a much further extent than Kirby ever could. Coupled with Diddys overall better speed and such, i strongly beleive that the MU should be a steady -1 for Kirby.

Kirby can gimp Diddy and sometimes get the early kill, but Diddys overall advantages still gives him the edge in the MU.