Kirby Match-Up Advice thread!

[Kewkky]

Speaking of the bananas importance in the MU, don't forget that Diddy is the one spawning them. Diddy brings out bananas as he pleases, which gives him the initial control. Diddy also has the option of retreating from the regular offensive game popular amongst Diddys, to instead play defensively with bananas and popgun in a way Kirby cannot. Assuming Kirby plays a reactive punishing or approaching game, Diddy can mix his options to a much further extent than Kirby ever could. Coupled with Diddys overall better speed and such, i strongly beleive that the MU should be a steady -1 for Kirby.

If he does his double-banana peanut-camping tactic, Kirby can just grab the peanuts and throw them at Diddy. Or he could wait until the banana Diddy's not grabbing disappears. His options change with the stages too, in Frigate and if Diddy's under the central platform, Kirby could also upB at Diddy while close to the ledge to avoid any follow-ups from Diddy if he gets Kirby with a banana, while also attacking Diddy from far away. Diddy may shield them easily, but it's pressure and Diddy won't be able to keep up his defensive strategy in that situation for long, especially once the banana he's not grabbing disappears.

I have to play against top Diddies to change my opinion, no matter how I see it it still seems even. Also, don't take MU discussions that centralize around character traits as the end-all be-all, certain player traits should come into play as well when discussing MUs. I don't think it's fair to call an MU "advantaged" for example, when in reality both characters go extremely even, and vice-versa as well. I suppose this goes more on a tangent about "what makes an MU what it is" instead of "what is the difficulty rating in this particular MU" so I'll drop it, but I wanted to just bring it up.

I haven't heard of recent matches where top Diddies and top Kirbies collided though.

 

[Wumbo105]

I might be understanding this wrong because I'm considerably intoxicated, but are you implying that Kirby can counter Diddy camping with up-b camping? Because that's pretty ridiculous.
Even waiting for bananas to disappear...Diddy can spawn 2 new ones in the same time Kirby lands with one measly Cutter.

 

[Kewkky]

I might be understanding this wrong because I'm considerably intoxicated, but are you implying that Kirby can counter Diddy camping with up-b camping? Because that's pretty ridiculous.
Even waiting for bananas to disappear...Diddy can spawn 2 new ones in the same time Kirby lands with one measly Cutter.

1) Kirby can shoot his upB shockwave in Frigate Orpheon at Diddy 100% safely, on the transformation with the slant and if Diddy's occupying the middle, and Kirby must be close enough to the ledge to DI offstage in case he somehow gets pelted with a banana.

2) Diddy can only spawn 2 bananas at a time, and whuile doing his defensive tactic (a banana in hand, one on the floor, shooting peanuts), he can't spawn any more until the banana disappears. Which is what we want him to do, commit to spawning another banana, which stops him from shooting peanuts, and he now doesn't have the second banana on the stage protecting him.


I'll let it slide because you're "considerably intoxicated".

 

[hyoipear]

I haven't heard of recent matches where top Diddies and top Kirbies collided though.

I found Chu vs Gnes from Apex 2010, speaking of Frigate.

After a bit of thinking about gimping his up+b recovery, i drew the conclusion that it's... really good. Simply bairing him out of up+b also does the job quite well

 

[Kewkky]

I found Chu vs Gnes from Apex 2010, speaking of Frigate.

After a bit of thinking about gimping his up+b recovery, i drew the conclusion that it's... really good. Simply bairing him out of up+b also does the job quite well

There's also a set of 5 between Chu and ADHD from july 2010, and also a set of 3 between Chu and AZ from august 2009. YbM also has a set against ADHD from Pound 4 (Jan 2010). They're old, which is why I didn't want to bring them up. Plus Chu nor YbM play the same as I do, so I can't base off what I'm talking about off of their very old videos.

 

[t!MmY]

And that's why I think Kirby/Diddy is even.

While I agree that the only thing reliable in a match-up discussion is the pure character differences (anything else is player-based), I don't necessarily agree with your interpretation of those differences. Basically I think you've over-simplified your conclusions. I could do the same by doing this:

Number of Jumps (Kirby): 6
Number of Jumps (Diddy): 2

Kirby's fastest attack: frame 3
Diddy's fastest attack: frame 3

D-throw Damage (Kirby): 12%
D-throw Damage (Diddy): 9%

Jumps: +1 Kirby
Fastest Attack: +1 Both
D-throw: +1 Kirby
= Kirby has the advantage in this match-up.
​

Now that I have posted my silly example, I will go into specifics.

RE: Kill Power
Kirby's 'safest' KO option will always be his B-air until he has his opponent at a high enough percent to KO with his U-throw (151%*). Since B-air is also Kirby's general spacing move, it will usually be staled out and thus will usually not be likely to KO until about 160+%. Using F-smash, Hammer, etc. is usually a poor option in any match-up, but they become exceptionally poor options in the Diddy match-up due to the spacing that Diddy creates with bananas. In general, Kirby will only be landing F-smash with hard reads (punishing Rolls/Dodges/Air Dodges/Tech Rolls/broken Shields).

*this damage is the 'base damage', that is to say without DI on Final Destination.

Diddy's KO power is significantly less than Kirby when comparing maximum knockback from any given attack, but when only comparing 'safe' KO options, Diddy has a clear advantage. Diddy's F-tilt, U-tilt, F-air and U-air all become safe and reliable KO options at about the same percents at which Diddy gets KO'd by Kirby's 'safe' KO options (about 150%). The difference here is that Diddy has many and various KO options while Kirby only has his B-air and U-throw, both of which are iffy on how well they can KO (B-air's stale moves modifier and U-throw requiring either an overhead platform or significantly higher damage percent on Diddy). Additionally Diddy has the ability to move in with a Glide Toss and hit-confirm a banana-slip into a D-smash or F-smash for even more KO power. Kirby's banana set-ups are much weaker given he only has JC-Item Tosses and no significant Glide Toss.

For reference, here are the KOs that Gnes and Chudat got on each other (that set at APEX 2010).

Diddy's KOs on Kirby
F-tilt: 155% (R1 2:24)
F-smash: 132% (R1 4:06)
F-air: 137% (R1 6:36)
U-air: 135% (R2 1:20)
D-air: 143% (R2 3:38)
F-smash: 161% (R3 1:48)
F-smash: 188% (R3 4:40)
U-special: 110% (R3 5:45)

Kirby's KOs on Diddy
U-air: 174% (R1 2:51)
Gimp: 135% (R1 6:00)
B-air: 165% (R2 3:57)
F-smash: 121% (R2 5:03)
SD: 162% (R2 7:08)
B-air: 137% (R3 2:03)
B-air: 164% (R3 4:48)
​

Notice the variety of moves used to KO with Diddy: 6 of the 8 KOs came from different attacks. With Kirby we see 3 of the 7 KOs coming from B-air alone, and that's being lenient considering the Gimp in R1 at 6:00 involved a number of B-airs, and the U-air was only after 2 consecutive B-airs failed to KO Diddy at 152% (fresh/sweetspot) and 163% (2nd-hit stale/sweetspot).

Just a note, many of Diddy's KOs used banana leads and none of Kirby's used bananas.

RE: Gimping Ability
Kirby gimps Diddy's recovery about as easily as Diddy gimps Kirby's recovery, the thing is that Kirby has more opportunities to gimp Diddy's recovery than Diddy does in return. When Kirby's recovering, Diddy is generally going to be setting up his banana game on-stage, or he already has it set up and he's just looking to get another hit on Kirby when the opportunity arises. When Kirby gets Diddy off-stage, it usually results in Kirby having a good position to hit Diddy out of his recovery and doing so on Diddy's U-special will usually result in gimping the stock. The only downside of this is that Kirby's B-air will send Diddy in a upward angle which refreshes Diddy's Side Special in a favorable trajectory as well as gives him another chance to use U-special.

Even though Kirby has 5 jumps, these do not refresh, and Final Cutter is IMO a fairly vulnerable recovery option (easily edgehogged with abusable start-up and a predictable recovery plus notable landing lag). When Kirby gets hit out of his jumps, he's going to have to resort to using a Hammer swing to get himself back to the stage and then go for a Final Cutter to make up for any lost vertical distance. This is about as bad of a position to be in as it is when Diddy is forced to use his U-special. Like I said, though, Diddy will usually be content with not going off-stage which results in Kirby getting to the ledge almost all the time.

RE: Priority
You can compare smashes to aerials to special attacks to whatever. In the end what matters is that Diddy's banana beats pretty much anything Kirby has. Any whiffed aerial from Kirby or any aerial that hits Diddy's Shield is a prime target for a Glide Toss -> Banana. The same goes for any ground-based attacks with the exception of a Grab. Any approach from Kirby is pretty much a disadvantageous risk. This is not to say that Kirby cannot approach Diddy, it's just obvious that approaching with Kirby is much harder to pull off than Diddy's side of things. Kirby must first navigate past Peanuts and perhaps bananas before he ever has the chance to go for that Aerial (or for a Grab, or feint, or whatever else since a blatant Aerial attack is pretty easily beat by Diddy).

Banana in hand > Kirby's priority.

RE: Range
Kirby has next to nothing at long range until he gets a banana. Diddy can and will use bananas more than Kirby and better than Kirby. Diddy also has Peanuts which aren't a real threat, but they're still an advantage at long range no matter how you look at it. Yes, Kirby can get Peanut Popgun from Diddy's hat, but... lol, Inhale.

Diddy's long range > Kirby's, this is even more so when Kirby doesn't have a banana.

 

[Wumbo105]

I'm just gonna let t!mmy argue this side if the situation lol. He's taking the thoughts right outta my head and expressing them better than I'm willing to try to lol.

 

[Vinylic.]

That was such a great read. :D

Big kudos, Tim.

 

[Kappy]

I don't think I was over-simplifying at all. I took five different aspects (that I think are important to a character vs character MU) of Kirby and Diddy while trying to not dip as much as I can into anything that might be affected by the player, compared them, decided who I personally felt won each category, added it up, and gave you the result, which was that Kirby/Diddy is even.

If you don't think some of those are legitimate aspects, then feel free to make your MU's with who has more jumps and a more damaging D-Throw.

The 'spacing that Diddy creates' will be different kinds of space depending on the Diddy player, and a certain kind of player may be able to get through that with his/her respective character.

Kill Power:

Those moves are the moves ChuDat used to kill Gnes in that particular set, and vice-versa. Maybe Falln or Y.b.M would have gotten that read with Aerial Hammer, Usmash, or Dsmash. Maybe even you, Timmy, could have used Fair to gimp or to kill. Maybe ADHD or Felix would have been a little more conservative with Dsmash and Fsmash and killed with those more often. Basically, the moves used in a particular set don't accurately reflect kill power and potential for a MU. If you can give me more than 20 sets proving your claim, then I'll concede that to you.

Just to add to that: I've killed Diddy with bananas before, and I've seen MikeKirby JC-Item Toss -> Fsmash, and had Jtails been at a higher % he would have been KO'd, so your specific example where Kirby doesn't use bananas is, again, a player thing, and that's why I don't even consider it when thinking about KO power.

Remember, it's power, not reliability, because even unreliable kill moves kill when a player makes the right reads and connects with it.

And, after looking it over one more time: you're wrong - Diddy KO'd 3 times with Fsmash, and Kirby KO'd 3 times with Bair (plus a gimp with Bair, so that's 4 if you want to be technical about it). Where's Diddy's, "3 of the 8 KO's came from Fsmash?" That's an entire game's worth of KO's coming from the same move when you can KO 8 times max in a Bo3 set.

Gimping Ability:

If Kirby has more opportunities to gimp, the I'd say he still wins this category. it doesn't matter what Diddy's doing while Kirby is recovering. If they have the same gimping ability and Kirby has more opportunities to gimp, then I think he stills wins this category. Anything else about how Kirby and Diddy are recovering goes into players.

Priority:

What about banana in hand > Diddy's priority?

Approaching is player and match-based - Kirby may not have to approach because he's in the lead, and therefore is invalid when discussing the character vs character MU because I think every character (except maybe Ganondorf, but even he could. LOL) has an advantage when they're in the lead and don't have to approach. Some players are better at approaching and may find Diddy's set-ups easy to get through. Some may find it difficult. Maybe the Diddy sets it up differently. How do you know what it's going to look like during the match?

Range:

Diddy has next-to-nothing long range until he gets a banana. The Kirby player can and will use bananas better than the Diddy player. Diddy has a glide-toss and a JC-Item Toss, but does that mean he automatically uses bananas better? The use of bananas is definitely player-based, and have nothing to do with Diddy's range because both Diddy and Kirby can utilize them.

If I thought Diddy's popgun was legitimate, Diddy would be +1 here, but many of Kirby's aerials go through the peanuts and it's not very long in range unless Diddy charges it. It may pile on some damage, but I don't think it's enough to warrant a +1 for Diddy when I think actual moves combined with aerial and ground speeds are more important to consider and hold the most weight, here.

 

[Wumbo105]

Diddy has next-to-nothing long range until he gets a banana. The Kirby player can and will use bananas better than the Diddy player. Diddy has a glide-toss and a JC-Item Toss, but does that mean he automatically uses bananas better? The use of bananas is definitely player-based, and have nothing to do with Diddy's range because both Diddy and Kirby can utilize them.

Yes, that does mean he automatically uses bananas (or more generally, items) better. Assuming both the players have equal item control skills (player skill should be assumed equal when talking about character matchups), Diddy has the upper hand because of these manipulations he has that Kirby does not. Simple as that.
Combined with the fact that he is the one that is generating these bananas, there is seldom a moment where Diddy has the lower hand in a "banana-off".

Also, I would say that the Popgun is just as legitimate (or non-legit) as Final Cutter. Where the Popgun has lack of speed and able to be broken, the Cutter has horrendous startup time and able to easily be approached by perfect-shielding or spot-dodging while advancing towards Kirby.
It's just another thing that Diddy has in his arsenal on top of his bananas (regardless of how effective it is), while Kirby only has Cutter to answer back with in terms of range, so Diddy should win the range section.

 

[MikeKirby]

Just because Diddy is the one generating the banana's doesn't mean he automatically gains possession of it like other characters such as Snake and Peach.

Yes, Diddy has more options to manipulate his item game but that doesn't mean Kirby can't do nil about it. A Diddy can only camp with his popgun for so long until his banana is gone, just like Kewkky said. Final Cutter isn't Kirby's only answer to a camping Diddy. It's an option and a mix-up at best. Kirby can power-shield, catch the peanuts, air camp, and, heck, he can even duck under them.

The match-up is about being patient and being aggressive when the time is right. Then again that's the Kirby metagame, heheh. If you can provide the right kind of pressure you can make it harder to for Diddy to set up his camping with his banana's and/or peanuts.

Although he might not be a highly ranked Diddy, Chu's match vs. Lie at Xanadu is a nice example.
>>Chudat vs. Lie /<<<
Notice how much of a difference Kirby and/or Chu performs when it goes from an even match from Diddy to an obvious disadvantage match from Olimar.

Oh and for the record, Kappy, that JC-Item Toss>F-smash did KO Jtails.

 

[t!MmY]

Where's Diddy's, "3 of the 8 KO's came from Fsmash?" That's an entire game's worth of KO's coming from the same move when you can KO 8 times max in a Bo3 set.

Where is it? It's listed quite plainly. Do note however that Gnes didn't have to get hard reads to hit with those F-smashes, he could hit confirm Banana Toss -> F-smash as well as have the option of just throwing out F-smashes like Kirby. Contrast this with the fact that Chudat got no Banana Toss -> F-Smash KOs, and only one F-smash KO in total in the entire set. This indicates to me that it requires much more skill with Kirby to land his strong KO attack whereas Diddy has a much easier time pulling it off (i.e. advantage to Diddy).

Remember, it's power, not reliability

Reliability doesn't factor into the category. Gotcha.

If Kirby has more opportunities to gimp, the I'd say he still wins this category.

Wait, "Reliability in KOs" shouldn't be taken into consideration for getting KOs, but now "Opportunities to Gimp" should count for getting gimps...? XD

Approaching is player and match-based

Correct, the characters don't approach by themselves, it's by choice of the players. But when looking at long range, Kirby has next to nothing and Diddy has obvious advantages and options. Kirby is the one put in the position to "need" to approach whereas Diddy can build damage much more safely and much more readily than Kirby can. This sounds like a character advantage more than simply brushing it off as player-based.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with the facts you present, simply your interpretation of them.

 

[t!MmY]

Although he might not be a highly ranked Diddy, Chu's match vs. Lie at Xanadu is a nice example.
>>Chudat vs. Lie /<<<
Notice how much of a difference Kirby and/or Chu performs when it goes from an even match from Diddy to an obvious disadvantage match from Olimar.

Thanks for the link to that vid it was a very interesting match. I do wonder why you say 'goes from an even match from Diddy to an obvious disadvantage match from Olimar' when it's clearly not an even match with Diddy.

I believe Chudat to be one of the best players in the nation at Smash. In the nation. No offense to Lie, but I do not think he's on Chudat's level. In all honesty I don't know much about Lie (I'm on WC and tend to see more of the WC side of things), but he definitely is an impressive player.

What I see in that set, however, is Chudat being the stronger player and going about even with a lesser player's Diddy. This indicates a disadvantage to the stronger player in the match-up. You see an even greater difference when Lie switches to Olimar. If Diddy is +1 and Olimar is +2 or as much as +3, then this all follows why Chudat went last stock in all three games.

In other words:

Notice how much of a difference Kirby and/or Chu performs when it goes from an even match bad match-up from Diddy to an obvious disadvantage match from Olimar even harder match-up with Olimar.
​

 

[Kappy]

If you had "reliability to KO" as a separate category, then I would definitely say Diddy has a +1 there. I just don't think that's as important a category because some players are good enough to get those kills. Maybe not Kirby specifically, but when I think about these things I try to not focus on any single character, and in the grand scheme of things, I don't think reliability is as big a factor as when the attacks connect whenever they do.

I guess gimping power should be interpreted as off-stage game instead of purely gimping, but it's my fault for never making it clear and only talking about gimping, so you win there. LOL. I do think Kirby is a +1 in offstage game, however, when it comes to facing Diddy.

Diddy has options, but what if, in the beginning of the match, the first thing Kirby does is run at Diddy and pressure him as he's throwing out a banana? What if he catches that first banana and runs away with it? I think Diddy's banana game is a little unsafe, and I think you think that Diddy's banana game is very safe, which is why we're disagreeing here.

I think a lot of people place a huge emphasis on Diddy with bananas, but what about him without bananas? He can't be a good character just because he's got bananas, can he?

I mean, Kirby can do this to Diddy (Diddy can also do this to Kirby, but this is to show that Kirby can use bananas well): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWB_7cRXNs8&feature=relmfu

Maybe if you're talking about the very beginning of the match then sure, Diddy has an advantage there, but I think Kirby would have an advantage if he was in the lead. I think it's the same with Kirby vs Falco and why that's even, too. Yeah, Falco has a long-range projectile, but when it comes to close combat Kirby has the edge, and I think that's more important because Kirby has the ability to air camp a lot of characters who have projectiles, and you know Falco is very good even without his lasers - they just help a little, and I think it's the same with Diddy - they just help a little.

Maybe we should ask a Diddy. LOL.

 

[Kewkky]

I always z-catch bananas when I'm near them. If I see Diddy pulling out a banana and I can reach for it before he finishes his animation, I z-grab it and throw it off-stage or at him. Fun ensues.

But, like I said before, haven't played against the top-level Diddies yet, so I can't say how my (quite aggressive but still safe) playstyle holds up against Diddies.

 

[falln]

light catching diddys naners are all fun and games until you mistime it and airdodge and get upaired at 170 and die

 

[Triple R]

Wow so much discussion.

I think everyone has said anything I would have said already. So I'll just post my opinion.

I do believe it's in diddy's favor even if only slightly. Same with Falco. When I look at the options and theory behind those matchups, I don't see how Kirby could have the advantage.

I don't really have problems with either matchup in tourney, but I still feel they're not in Kirby's favor.

 

[Kappy]

light catching diddys naners are all fun and games until you mistime it and airdodge and get upaired at 170 and die

Oh my god. I know exactly how this feels. LOL.

 

[t!MmY]

I think I agree with RRR, except we haven't really covered stages. I feel that things get better for Kirby in the match-up when working with 'less stable' ground such as Frigate, Rainbow Cruise, etc. Things get worse for Kirby on more static stages such as Smashville and especially Final Destination. Smashville at least has one platform, but FD is lacking in all platforms which makes Kirby have to play even more safe with his spacing and choice on landing.

@Kappy
I'll just pick out the relevant stuff from your post for brevity, please forgive me if I don't have time to discus conditionals and what-if scenarios.

Re: Diddy without bananas
He's a good character even without bananas, I would say at least on par with Kirby except for off-stage/edge-guarding. He would basically have the same options as Kirby with more risk on approaching Kirby and less risk for Kirby to approach. He'd really only have his peanut popgun for long-range pressure, which is still better than Final Cutter.

Re: Single Nanner Lock
Diddy can get the lock on Kirby more easily due to his Glide Toss. I think Kirby's hurtbox is also wider than Diddy's marginally, so in theory it's easier to footsool and hit with a banana vertically on Kirby than it is on Diddy. Aside from that, yeah they both can lock each other with a single banana and it's pretty unlikely to be seen in a real fight. (although I have seen Felix troll scrubs by Single Nanner Locking them in tournament). XD

Maybe we should ask a Diddy. LOL.

I have asked Diddy players about the match-up. Gnes says the match-up is 'easy' and Felix doesn't even take Kirby seriously as a character on a whole. X_X

Re: Falco
If anything, I don't think Falco 'has the advantage' at long range. I also don't think Kirby necessarily has the advantage at close range. I do however think that it's slightly in Falco's favor, overall.

 

[Kappy]

If there's so much for a +1 for both Diddy and Falco against Kirby, then maybe Wumbo was right in questioning the MU chart. LOL. It seems like more Kirbies think they're +1 than even, yet the chart says they're both even. Is 55-45 (which I guess would mean a very small advantage) still considered even?

 

[Wumbo105]

You're all welcome for reviving the ever-critical aspect of the metagame that is matchup discussion lmao.
I feel that after a certain amount of time, considering new discoveries and whatnot, these things have to be revisited. I'm just glad sensible players are showing interest in it.

 

[Vinylic.]

We really should be doing a lot of MU discussions on differeent characters again.

 

[falln]

i think is even
and i think is even

but i also think that and are even and that and aren't that bad but no one listens to me qqq


****ing though that depends on the opponent

 

[Kappy]

i think is even
and i think is even

but i also think that and are even and that and aren't that bad but no one listens to me qqq

I think the same exact way, Falln. LOL.

 

[falln]

kirbys the top tier character no one ****ing knows about because no one ****ing plays him

 

[Vinylic.]

Amen to that.

 

[Kewkky]

Hallelujah!


I also still think Kirby's cooler than Falco. And Snake's the one MU I know the most as Kirby (it's hilarious how I destroy lower-leveled Snakes because of how much I know the MU).

 

[Wumbo105]

I agree about Snake, and Falco to some extent.
Olimar isn't that bad, for me at least. I do not agree about ICs, ICs are stuuuuuuuupid.

I also believe Kirby is too low on the tier list. But that just means it's more impressive when we win.

 

[Kewkky]

Kirby is also way too good in doubles. And no one knows because everyone prefers other cookie-cutter doubles strategies.

 

[Shadocat]

After watching chu vs lie, i feel as if close combat may be best when fighting diddy. I mean if we dont let diddy pull out a nanner by fighting close range, then thats good right??

 

[Kewkky]

Hell yes to close-combat. What good will it do Kirby if he's far away just jumping all day, while Diddy nets himself a nice defensive setup? Kirby should only be jumping around if Diddy already has his setup (or something similar to), so that he can either force or trick Diddy out of it.

 

[t!MmY]

+1 (or 55:45) generally translates to: "It's pretty even, but if there's an advantage it goes to this character."

I don't really think Ice Climbers are all that bad; not getting grabbed is easier than not getting hit.

 

[Shadocat]

Thats what i was thinking too. Ive played ICs offline and online. its not that bad of a match-up as people are making it out to be. We can air camp em, and if they try or u-air, we could just airdodge or try to beat it with d-air(does Kirby's d-air beat ic's u-air??)

IMO, is a -1 for us.

 

[Vinylic.]

I did the same thing and won. All you have to do is dodge grabs and do more fairs and utilts.
If nana and popo are separated, do not mind popo and just finish off nana.

 

[falln]

the worst ice climbers to play vs are the random ones you dont care about much (or at least in my exp) because then i dont have it in me to camp and play as ******y as i need to and thats when can be considered hard.

but kirbys camping is really really really strong against so much of the cast

 

[Kewkky]

@Shadocat: Our dair doesn't beat their uair, their uair is way too disjointed.

 

[Wumbo105]

If there was something between -1 and -2, that's what I'd say it is.
-1 is too close.

 

[Gh0st.]

IC's uair goes though all our aerials, right? Their uair really kills in in the air. I dnt have much to sayy but honestly I think patience and camping is a must against good IC's in order to win. VERY VERY pateint lol prolly more pateint than the Olimar mu

 

[Wumbo105]

Of course you need to be patient lol.
A time-out is pretty much the only chance a Kirby has against a good ICs.
And yea u dont wanna be above ICs. Below or in front of em is probably your best bet.

 

[MikeKirby]

I wouldn't say a time-out is the only chance Kirby has. It's just that you have to play really patient and really smart to get things to go your way. So much so, that a time-out is highly imminent.

Anyway, yeah, in front and below them is definitely your better position. When below, just make sure to give yourself some space to react to their D-air.