Kira's Sheik Videos [vs Zhu, MacD] 5.19.10

[KirbyKaze]

Solitaire... so KK you're telling me that the later into the night it gets, the more addicting you become? Not only that but staying up late with you will result in 1 minute sessions that will either leave me smiling or crying (and coming back for more either way)?

Wow now I can't wait for Apex

Yes that is exactly what I am inferring :D

 

[ZoSo]

Also I believe KoreanDJ was a checkers player. The way Ken talked about playing against his style practically confirms it. He would say that playing against KDJ was random.

I've played KDJ a lot and I disagree. Even if I'd never played him before, I would disagree because top players are very patient and calculating (chess) IN ADDITION to having great mechanics (checkers), to the point where I don't think it's possible for anybody to succeed against them with one or the other.

i wish we played PAL

u guys actually have a pretty balanced game

it's like street fighter and super street fighter

you guys have the upgraded, more balanced version of our game

which is why ur so good =D

Hyper Fighting is actually regarded as more balanced than Super Turbo, last I checked. Champion Edition is dumb though.

 

[Kira-]

edit - oh i missed the 2nd page

@ Zoso
The analogy isn't perfect of course, but recognizing who is who can help you beat them. For example Mango plays two different styles depending on what kind of player they are.

I actually like this analogy, but what would you call it for those fox's/falco's that are purely tech skill and no mindgames? Highly aggressive but pure autopilot.

Checkers of course! How can you play Chess without thinking?

I'm not sure I agree with this.

Namely because my style tries to play Solitaire.

Requesting explanationnnn man i am sleep deprived
I heard you need at least a good 8 hours of sleep to gain muscle. This is important news to me

 

[KirbyKaze]

My ultimate goal is to get really good at hitting the opponent. And then develop my punishment game to the point where I can play Solitaire when I hit them.

Solitaire is a one-player game.

 

[Twin_A]

Actually Kira what I meant was in Checkers you actually have to think to play. Sure it's just straight forward advancing and it's an odd style, but there is still a little thought process involved lol.

 

[Teczer0]

Haha I don't think Kira meant that there is no thought process in either.

Its rather when you think of Checkers vs Chess as a whole you see Chess as the more thought intensive game. And you see Checkers as a "They does this so I react by doing this" kinda game.

That or you can view that Chess is really non-linear and checkers is more linear. Whatever makes you happy I guess.

Its kinda why I prefer using Mechanics vs Adaptation. In essence me and Kira mean the same thing but we say it a different way lol.

 

[Kira-]

Yeah it's probably not the "best" way to describe it, but that's how we refer to things.

New sets uploaded, still waiting on one more vs Fly but I think the Zhu and MacD sets are pretty good so you can see what's up if you get time.


I wrote a lot prefacing each set, but there's one sentence set apart that has one match that I thought was most worth watching if you don't feel like seeing the whole thing.

 

[joeplicate]

kira is my favorite sheik now


except you need to calm down on the chess/checkers analogy
it's not so easy to categorize a player. people don't always fall into such a dichotomy

 

[soap]

any backgammon players here?

i play some mean jacks as well.

don't get me started on the pick-up sticks.

but on the real, good **** kira. Impressive bracket run.

I can't beat good foxes, seeing other sheiks do it give me hope

 

[Kira-]

Oh yeah some new things I started doing with Sheik

1. Fullhops - full hops are pretty good, I saw KK doing them so I tried them and they sometimes work

2. short hops - LOL usually after doing a fair I ftilt or jab, or usually I WD out of my shield, but I started doing short hops more to be more like Amsah. It's just great cause you're always in control of the situation rather than trying to not get hit after whiffing your ftilt (along with some other reasons like people just can't do a lot about this when in their shield). I spammed this all day and never got horribly ***** for it

3. turnaround bairs. like for approaching i'll walk up, then turn around and bair to place a wall in front of people. I like this against foxes who try to play on platforms a lot. took this from overtriforce. it's cool cause i only saw him do it once but it just made so much sense

4. slowfall fairs - both fullhop and shorthop. sometimes the timing is just right

5. shield approach - this is NOT, run up shield, wait until they do something. This is the mango; run up shield for a split second only, then do an attack. To be perfectly honest I really don't know what the shield is for, whether it's to be in off-timing, or cause it brings out a reaction from people, or just as a slight precaution, but either way it works cause you run up to them which PROBABLY makes them want to take action, then you **** them iono i just do it and it's cool. mango does this with puff all day. i could probably elaborate later but i dont think i'd do a great job, it's hard for me to explain

oh yeah walking is REALLY good with sheik, Mango told me this a long time ago and i never realized why until now. it's just easier to space. and a sheik walking towards you is probably intimidating

kira is my favorite sheik now


except you need to calm down on the chess/checkers analogy
it's not so easy to categorize a player. people don't always fall into such a dichotomy

haha thanks =)

and yeah I agree it's not a perfect analogy. I think it's half-serious, half-joke for mgo/lucky anyway. btw we agreed you're a chess player lol

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I loathe that analogy.

Kira, I eagerly await our next set.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fly, you need to get more consistent with your D-throw CGing.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I'm consistent at it when I'm not nervous. I suck at remaining calm, though. *shrug*

edit: I know being consistent at it under certain conditions that I don't meet often is kind of meaningless. I suck. >_>

 

[joeplicate]

haha thanks =)

and yeah I agree it's not a perfect analogy. I think it's half-serious, half-joke for mgo/lucky anyway. btw we agreed you're a chess player lol

haha that's legit i guess

idk i figure i'm just a weird player, more than anything

i still love spamming things when i can get away with it
(shine oos, sitting in my shield for dayz)
it just feels so nice! like eating chocolate when you're on a diet

i guess i'm learning though lol

 

[Lawrencelot]

I'm gonna try some of those things Kira said, especially walking

5. shield approach - this is NOT, run up shield, wait until they do something. This is the mango; run up shield for a split second only, then do an attack. To be perfectly honest I really don't know what the shield is for, whether it's to be in off-timing, or cause it brings out a reaction from people, or just as a slight precaution, but either way it works cause you run up to them which PROBABLY makes them want to take action, then you **** them iono i just do it and it's cool. mango does this with puff all day. i could probably elaborate later but i dont think i'd do a great job, it's hard for me to explain

I do this all the time in SSB64. The reason to use it there is because you can't cancel your dash with crouch or wavedash. I think with sheik in melee, doing the same with crouch instead of shield would be even more legit (except you can't do it in your initial dash), because sheik ducks so low she can avoid a lot of things. Against ganon I always jump right in front of him and then crouch; if he grabs, jabs, or ftilts me, he misses, and his other attacks are too slow.

 

[xbombr]

I was watching some videos last night and I noticed Lucky doing that run up, shield, immediately attack against HugS. I guess he was trying to bait Samus's slow grabs though once he caught onto HugS strategy of baiting him into his light shield by UB'ing like every 5 seconds whether it was a good opportunity or not and then sometimes he'd just randomly grab him instead of UB.

From what I've seen just from that match though, this does produce reactions even in really smart players, like HugS. I can imagine it wrecking people who don't necessarily play as carefully.

 

[Kira-]

Added me vs ICs in first post

I was watching some videos last night and I noticed Lucky doing that run up, shield, immediately attack against HugS. I guess he was trying to bait Samus's slow grabs though once he caught onto HugS strategy of baiting him into his light shield by UB'ing like every 5 seconds whether it was a good opportunity or not and then sometimes he'd just randomly grab him instead of UB.

From what I've seen just from that match though, this does produce reactions even in really smart players, like HugS. I can imagine it wrecking people who don't necessarily play as carefully.

Yeah, that's definitely a good example. I don't think it really "wrecks" lower-level players or people who are more aggressive, it's a difficult technique to use correctly in my experience.

I'm gonna try some of those things Kira said, especially walking

I do this all the time in SSB64. The reason to use it there is because you can't cancel your dash with crouch or wavedash. I think with sheik in melee, doing the same with crouch instead of shield would be even more legit (except you can't do it in your initial dash), because sheik ducks so low she can avoid a lot of things. Against ganon I always jump right in front of him and then crouch; if he grabs, jabs, or ftilts me, he misses, and his other attacks are too slow.

Sheik can duck under Ganon's grab? You sure you weren't just too far away?

I loathe that analogy.

Kira, I eagerly await our next set.

You're a chess player! Haha um I think I will have to play a lot gayer. I did a lot of risky things that could've been punished really hard (stuff that you have punished 0-death before). Also I will have to find another way to add damage; shield pressuring you does almost nothing except give you an opportunity to hit me. But either way it was fun using Sheik and trying really hard.

 

[Kira-]

Also this sounds weird, but after that last set with Fly and after re-watching the videos and analyzing everything I'm pretty sure ICs are Sheik's only bad matchup. Sheik is definitely at a disadvantage for this one; I think Fly could've played much better than he did and he probably will the next time I play him. There's really not a lot we can do to add damage. Shield pressure doesn't do anything at all- fairs get uptilted, ftilts get CC > grab and we obviously can't grab ICs.. so what can we do to hit them? lol. platform camping is hard

Fox depends heavily on how good you are with grabs. Imo, good with grabs = in your favor, bad with grabs = heavily in their favor.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik's body contortions let her like dash attack Ganon's shield and if he shield grabs too early it whiffs.

Her duck is even lower.

It's just that ridiculous.

I think Fox and Falco are like troublesome because they can outcamp Sheik and force her to approach and get off her camping bum. I don't really care for ratios anymore though.

 

[Lawrencelot]

Sheik can duck under Ganon's grab? You sure you weren't just too far away?

I think there's no way ganon can grab you when you're ducking and the terrain is horizontal. Against falcon and some other chars it also works but not if you're too close, against ganon it seems to work all the time.

 

[pockyD]

i don't think ICs are that tough; certainly not harder than fox/falco

sheik has all the control in the matchup while the IC player has to rely mostly on sheik's mistakes, with a few occasional gimmicks. if the sheik plays precise and safe, the IC player can't force an opening

 

[Teczer0]

Sheik can duck under almost all of Ganon's important ground moves.

Grab, Jab, ftilt

The ones she can't crouch under are dtilt and low angled ftilt. But.. that doesn't really matter since you can just CC grab him if they opt for that.

 

[xbombr]

Platform camping, needles, retreating/fade away Fairs, well spaced Bair/Nair, and grab Popo when they're desynced is just about all Sheik can do.

None of the options are really at all safe for extended periods of time either.

I'd laugh if the solution to the problem was some obscure thing like abusing the chain.

 

[pockyD]

sheik can't do much; ICs can't do ANYTHING

edit: except on FD

 

[xbombr]

So I would assume that you have some videos of yourself beasting the top IC players that I can reference to see what I'm missing when I play this match up?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ganon's ground game is terrible against Sheik.

 

[pockyD]

So I would assume that you have some videos of yourself beasting the top IC players that I can reference to see what I'm missing when I play this match up?

i'm not a top sheik player, so i don't see how that's relevant

i (and most players) make massive amounts of mistakes that undo any sort of natural advantage

you're misrepresenting or misinterpreting my position. i'm not necessarily convinced sheik even has an advantage; she merely has all the CONTROL and dictates the matchup (compare to falco vs. almost anybody)

 

[xbombr]

I don't think purposely giving up center stage because you can't keep from getting CC -> death grabbed until they're like 50%, camping platforms with needles and not landing solid hits because if you mess up you die, plus having no real means to separate the IC's gives Sheik much control. This happens with a lot of characters, but we can **** grab them. IC's can't be **** grabbed. I don't see any means of control. Of course, what do I know?

 

[pockyD]

can you just give an example of how ICs can force an opening to get a grab or clean hit with a decent success rate

 

[xbombr]

CC anything below like 40-50% -> ****

Disjointed hitboxes that can go through our aerials.

They always have stage control and an uberfast WD so they don't really even need to force openings. They can just wait for a screw up, WD in, and take your stock. They amount of openings they need are surprisingly little.

It's like a lot of characters match ups with Ganondorf. Ganon can't force openings, he just waits for them and ***** you. The difference is that IC's are faster and are practically immune to grabs. IC's can play patiently just like Sheik can and it makes all of Sheik's dancing around null and void if they do it right.

 

[pockyD]

CC anything below like 40-50% -> ****

CC isn't forcing anything since your opponent clearly isn't forced to do a CC-able move to begin with

the ic player isn't going to be able to cc grab a properly spaced fair or bair, nor do they have a good way to deal with needles

Disjointed hitboxes that can go through our aerials.

the only relevant thing that goes through anything is the incredibly telegraphed bair

if you're in position to get hit by a uair, you already made a large mistake (why would you ever try to come down on someone with sheik?)

They always have stage control and an uberfast WD so they don't really even need to force openings. They can just wait for a screw up, WD in, and take your stock. They amount of openings they need are surprisingly little.

i'm well aware of that... the question is how they get those openings (and the answer is that 99% of the time, it requires a decent-sized mistake on sheik's part). don't get distracted

i don't think the amount of openings needed is "surprisingly" little either, given that we ALL know that grab = death

It's like a lot of characters match ups with Ganondorf. Ganon can't force openings, he just waits for them and ***** you. The difference is that IC's are faster and are practically immune to grabs. IC's can play patiently just like Sheik can and it makes all of Sheik's dancing around null and void if they do it right.

ganon can't force openings (although i'd contend he has a better pressure game than ICs do), and consequently, ganon is a bad character that loses to like everyone above him on the tier list. what ganon DOES have that ICs largely lack is "safe" stuff

 

[xbombr]

Ok, maybe Ganon was a bad example.

The amount of characters that can actually, legitimately force openings is limited to Fox and Falco, everyone else is reactionary, needs the use of mindgames, or requires very specific situations to force an opening. No one else has the offensive tools or the shield pressure to do it properly.

This is just a battle of who can punish mistakes harder and the obvious winner is IC's.

 

[pockyD]

well obviously i'm not asking for options that work 100% of the time

something as simple as jab shield pressure into either punishing the roll through you or following their roll away is a decent, very generalized option

or jiggly safely walling with bairs and forcing you to retreat until you can't retreat anymore

these things clearly don't have anywhere near 100% success rate but you are clearly in the driver's seat when doing them

maybe "force" is too strong a word, but i want to emphasize that all ICs can do is significantly closer to "baiting" than "forcing", making them reactive and pretty much at the mercy of safe, mistake free play

 

[xbombr]

I feel that Sheik is in a similar position.

The best hope of winning the match comes from camping on platforms and throwing needles until you get them to a point when they can't CC you.

CC Dsmash is another annoying thing to deal with as well since it shuts down spaced FAir if used properly.

IC's punishment game is just too good against Sheik. Of course if both players are playing absolutely perfectly, then Sheik should win. The problem is that this level of play is not obtainable by 99.9% of players and even the other .1% can't sustain it in even most matches they play.

 

[KirbyKaze]

if both characters suck **** against each other maybe it's like evenish?

 

[xbombr]

Maybe it is evenish... I just think Sheik sucks **** against IC's harder than IC's suck **** against her.

I at least feel they're more limiting to Sheik than Sheik is to them, but that doesn't really translate into a definitive answer for how good the match up is for either party.

edit: Good stuff against MacD in that 3rd match, Kira. The Peach match up has always been one of my favorites.

 

[Kira-]

Sheik has to play perfect to maintain that advantage

and we should know by now that playing perfect is impossible


it's like an exaggerated marth vs peach

peach hits harder, marth kills later but peach can never get in with perfect play

but she can and does get in obviously


the difference is that marth vs peach is stage dependent, sheik vs ICs is generally not

 

[nicaboy]

fack ice climbers altough kira makes it seem some what even. I only feel sheik has the advantage once one of them is gone. anywa good stuff man glad your still playing

 

[Lawrencelot]

I had a small tourney yesterday, and I'm upset that I didn't get out of pouls. I lost 2-1 to both Remen and Adam, which is very good since they are, together with Amsah Zgetto and Faab, in a way higher skill level than any of the other Dutch players. But I lost to the same sheik player I lost to in my previous tournament, and I hate it because all he does is spotdodge downsmash. He is very predictable, he always rolls off the ledge and such, but I can't punish it for some reason because his downsmash always hits and when downsmash hits you it's unpunishable unless you have very low percent. I play way better against really good sheiks than against his Drephen style, even when I know what he's gonna do all the time, I just don't know what to do against it. Any advice?

Also I'm struggling against a ganon. I lost to this ganon in my previous tourney, yesterday I beat him 2-1. Since I play PAL the ganon can chaingrab me but I can't chaingrab him, but even though the guy banned FD himself and I managed to escape to platforms around 30% or so it was kinda hard. The main problem is the bair of ganon, I don't manage to find a way in after he bairs empty space. All his other attacks are too slow and when I duck he can't do anything, but I need to know how to punish everything better. Any advice?

Edit: Sorry I thought this was the Q/A thread for some reason (too many good questions and good answers here lol). Still couldn't hurt to help me out here I guess

 

[ConnorTheKid]

just use dsmash to punish his spotdodge. it lasts forever so one of its hits should hit him before he gets to dsmash you.

I don't main Sheik but I'm pretty sure it works.