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Kingdom Hearts (All games)

Meru.

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Agreed times a thousand.

Disagreed times a million. You may get tired of spin-offs but I don't. Surely I'd prefer to see another main console game but you can't have it all. I'd rather have some spin-offs in the mean time than nothing at all. Besides, KH spin-offs are actually quite fun gameplay-wise and whilst not being considered signifant to the storyline, they still add enough interesting elements (outside of Re:Coded apparently, which I have not played) and have a good story by themselves.

Don't like them, don't play them. One thing I find very respectable of Square Enix is that they mention whether a KH game is a spin-off or not and whether it's essential to the plot or not, so one can never say that they expected a main sequel.


:052:
 

theeboredone

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Recoded was an entertaining jaunt through memory lane. I enjoyed the gameplay, but the story was mostly exactly what they sold it as. A side story. You go in expecting KH3, you're going to be disappointed.
I was not expecting KH3, but to have the audacity to sell this game for full price, and simply make it a trip "through memory lane" is an insult in its own right. What you are implying (not saying, but implying), is that you enjoyed Recoded, because it reminded you of a good KH experience. There is nothing wrong with that, but I don't look at video games, because I'm a fan of "X" series. I look at video games as whether or not if they are good as a whole.

As far as 358/2, I don't enjoy the progression as much as, say, BBS. However, just because you and I find it repetitive doesn't mean it was bad. Monster Hunter sells and it is simply "Go do this mission" with much less of a colorful story. The multiplayer is extremely entertaining and the actual gameplay elements are fine. It's a difference in taste. Many people enjoy games who's appeal is mainly located in the 100% complete element.
Monster Hunter is a very poor comparison to KH, because it has never emphasized any semblance of story. One of KH's appeals is story, along with the inclusion of disney characters and gameplay.

If you want to point out them milking a franchise, then your best bet would be Rechain or the Final Mixes. However, each of them gave you something new that fans wanted. They're not repackaging the same game or delivering me low quality product. I'm perfectly fine with them creating more in this universe.
From what most of my friends and from video game boards tell me, Recoded was essentially garbage in terms of story until the last few hours, when it revealed some information about 3DS and some stuff about KH2. Gameplay wise, KH has never fixed the plat forming issue, and it's much of the same thing in Recoded along with the same gameplay from series past. If you can tell me, right here, right now, that they are putting as much effort into these side games as they did to KH 1 and KH 2, or BBS, then I'll respect your opinion of the fact they have not "milked" this franchise, but it is something I believe, because the effort is clearly not as present compared to other games.

Okay, first off, are you really saying that the spin-offs should outscore the core games? Seriously? That's what your first sentence implies and it's laughable.
Why not? If you put the correct effort into the game, then why should it not score just as high if not better? If you improve on what makes KH good...that is the inclusion of Disney elements, gameplay, and its story, then what's not to say it doesn't deserve a better score? What you are implying is a form of prejudice against side games. Yes, there are spin off games out there that are considered "bad" by many such as FFX-2 or Dirge of Cerebrus. But there are also spin offs that resonate a good feel such as Crisis Core or the Zeldas that have been released on portable systems. These games don't have to be made. But they are, and I see more effort and time put into these games, then I did these KH titles.

The game doesn't need to be a must buy. It's there to keep the established fan base interested and advertising for you in the long time between the release of the latest installment.
If you are a fan of any series, you won't forget it. There's a reason why people still clamor for a new Jak and Daxter game. There is a reason why a new Sly Cooper game is soon to be released. Why do you think Operation Rainfall was a success? The last "Xeno" game released was in 2006, and people still today care for the Xeno series. I don't think KH would be forgotten anytime soon.

Are they good for KH fans? Are you a KH fan? That's where they're aimed and they're not touted as the next end all, be all aside from possibly BBS which delivers very well (8.5 meta critic) but that's because it was designed and marketed as a major installment.
I consider myself a "fan", but I don't succumb to any game thrown at my face. And to say BBS was the only marketed major installment, anytime you slap the words "Kingdom Hearts" you instantly have claimed a huge interest. There's not much marketing to be had, given how established the fanbase is.

It appears to me that the problem lies with your high standards for side games. Look at your other example of prevalent franchise milking, CoD. They bust out a new game every year like they think they're Madden. Each game is sold as something new and exciting, but is just a rehash of the previous game with different gun properties and maps. Your KH games each offer something different in game play even if they aren't the epic console adventures you appear to be searching for.
I confess, I do have high standards for games. Primarily because, any title will get a 9 or above in today's gaming society, and it's distasteful to me. It shows such leniency, despite the fact reviewers will go into detail about flaws, yet still slap a high score on it. And to your point, I don't think 358/2 added anything mind blowing to the gameplay. Every CoD "tweaks" and "adds" new perks and game mechanics. What's to say that by replacing "equipping items" with a "panel" is not the same thing?

If you don't want to read through all of that, I suggest you read this. All I'm saying is, I don't think these spin offs are treated with much respect compared to their console counterparts. I don't believe in such trivial things such as "it's a spin off, therefore, it shouldn't be as good" nonsense. A game is a game. It can be good depending on how much effort you put into it. If you are playing with a franchise name recogition, quite frankly, you are gonna make money no matter how good or bad the game is. This is the treatment I feel like KH games have gotten, and this is why I feel like they are cash cows. Because these games are so heavily flawed.

I should note, there is nothing wrong with being a cash cow, so long as the games are good. Practically every series today has some form of cash cowing. Mario with all its spin offs is a good example, though I do question the quality of some of their games. You can make the case that KH was a cash cow to begin with, given they decided to mix in Disney of all things into the game. Then to have the state of mind to release spin offs on different systems...just making dat money man.

THEY'RE
NOT
****ING
SPINOFFS

Spinoffs don't move the story foward.
You don't need to get mad. I apologize if our views on what a "spin off" is, but this is the definition I got from Wiki.

"In media, a spin-off is a radio program, television program, video game, or any narrative work, derived from one or more already existing works, that focuses, in particular, in more detail on one aspect of that original work (e.g. a particular topic, character, or event)."

So these games do constitute, in that definition, as spin offs.
 

Roxas215

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Roxas215, here's a thought for you that's been irking me. What is MX/YMX's end game? You say the X blade, which makes sense. However, back in BBS, his reasoning for forging it was to see what would happened/fin out what happened in the past. But, if YMX has time travel powers as everyone seems to figure, couldn't he just use them to go back in time and find out what happened? So what's his new endgame/reason for forging the X-blade? Has he just defaulted to taking over the world?

I think I'll post this thought on KHInsider as well...
The reason he wanted to created the X-blade was cause he wanted to begin another Keyblade war. No reason to think that changed and with Sora/Riku being stronger then T/A/V he probably wants that to happen even more now.

And while YMX seems to have time travel powers who's to say the memories of YMX and MX are the same? With all the different clones/nobodies etc in this game these 2 characters could very well have their own identiy not based on each other. Sort of like Ven/Roxas.

Whether it's holding it up to Noburo or just typical RPG standards, the story is a let down.



This goes back to me saying it was unnecessary, given what the game gave us. I would have been more content if they dove into the stories of each Organization member. Personally, it would have been pretty neat if the game just didn't focus on playing as Roxas, but the other guys as well. The game itself was just repetitive in nature, and as you said, made for profit.



Lol, I'm not talking about that sort of stuff.



KH2 did make its fighting a bit more "cinematic." However, at the end of the day, I want two things when it comes to gameplay. Have fun with it. Have something new. I am not gonna sit aside and say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Something can always be improved or integrated, and I felt like 358 was a huge letdown in that aspect. Aside from the panel customization, there was not much else to go on. Rather shameful, when there was a 3 year gap between that and KH2.



Difficulty has never been...a concern of mine so to speak when it comes to KH games. I've always started my games out on Expert, and I have had no problem breezing through them. Never did I think KH games were difficult. I think they are extremely streamlined to a huge fanbase (Disney, duh) so difficulty is not really a main concern.

Also, I just wanna leave it off by saying, it's not surprising that on Metacritic, the three lowest scored KH games are the spin offs. In order of worst to best, Recoded at 66, 358/2 at 75, and CoM at 76. In a world where...

A. It shouldn't be hard for a popular series to get a 8 or above, this is embarrassing. Reviewers are always lenient towards established series.
B. A game isn't must buy material unless it scores a 8.5 or higher.

It just screams the games are subpar, and hardly any effort was put into them. Are they good for KH fans? Sure, but as games themselves, they aren't the best so to speak.

Days had the best script out the entire series. And gave us much needed backstory on Roxas and made "Deep Dive" make sense. Also you really interested in the backstory of say Demxy and Luxord???

Even back in Chain Of Memories there were hints that only the 6 Apprentices were of any importance while the rest of the org was just found down the line. And all 6 of their backstories were fleshed out in Days/BBS.

And yes i do agree. This late into the series if your just picking up a KH game just to play it your probably going to be dissapoinited. While the gameplay is never lame)Re:Coded is one of the best games in the series gameplay wise) The story is and will always be the main focus of this franchise. And with every game(There not spinoffs) More questions are answered.

As far as KH3 being the last game it's confirmed it's not. However it's also confirmed that KH3 will be the last game in the "Xehanort Saga" And then the series will begin a new chapter. So while it's not the last game in the series it will conclude the story that started with KH1.

It's also confirmed that this game (DDD) is the bridge to KH3. Sort of like CoM was the bridge to KH2. However with the past 2 trailers comparing this game to CoM doesn't do it justice. It seems this game has more content then BBS. It's def a "Main" entry.

It's also said that the secret ending of this game is going to give us a FULL understanding of whats to come in KH3.
 

Roxas215

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So after posting at the gamefaqs KH board and Kingdom Hearts Insider i thought i would post this here. Im pretty sure i just figured out the whole "Ansem Data" Thing.


Spoilers in case im right.




So yea in case you didn't know in one of the scenes of "Blank Points"(The secret ending to BBS) We see Ansem and Aqua trapped in the Realm of Darkness. In this scene Ansem tells us he hid "Data" inside Sora (Obviously this would have to of happened during the time Sora was sleep Between the time gap of the end of Chain Of Memories and the when Sora woke up in KH2.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcU9tulnvDI
The part im talking about starts at 3.30

Also in the BBS Final Mix secret ending "Zero Point" We actually see a quick scene of Ansem in front of Sora's Pod.
http://www.veoh.com/watch/v20754681...ts+Birth+by+Sleep:+Final+Mix+~Secret+Episode~. Starts at 3.41 I would of posted a Youtube vid but this video is copyrighted and this fan dub was the only one i could find.

Now in a interview a couple months back when asked about this "Data" Nomura said while he can't speak on the contents this Data holds the key into "Saving" the people that needed it in "Blank Points"(Same scene i posted above so just watch the whole thing if you never have. This part starts at 7.38)



These people are obviously Roxas/Axel/Xion/Namine/Ven. Terra and Aqua needs "Saving" as well but i dont really see how this Data helps those 2.


Now in a very recent interview "The one in this months Nintendo Power" Nomura was asked about all the characters showing up in this game who you would think wouldn't be back(Roxas/Xion/Namine) and he said that YMX was the cause for this.

This got me thinking. In the latest trailer we see Namine quickly fading into Xion in front of Modern (KH2) Sora. Because of this i thought this was happening in the real world. And maybe it still is. But if YMX is the cause of this there obviously there not actually there

My thoughts is somehow the fragments of everyone connected to Sora is ripped out of him during the course of this game(Roxas/Xion/Ven). Maybe even part of Xehanort's plan to corrupt Sora to darkness. These 3 characters are every bit a part of Sora as he is himself at this point. And without them Sora really wouldn't be able to function. What if the "data" Ansem stored inside Sora was a "Copy" of Roxas Xion and Ven?? A copy of their memories?? Memories is and always have been a very important part of this series. So important that there have been cases where Memories themselves have created hearts.(Re:Coded)

If Ansem somehow made a copy of their memories then Roxas Xion and Ven would be able to exist as their own without Sora being harmed. Not to mention Sora NEEDS to know what happened to Roxas Xion and Ven. He needs to know the sacrifices these characters made FOR HIM.
 

theeboredone

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I don't. I mean, the whole point of Kingdom Hearts was to mix the RPG story and style we all love from Square games with Disney. It just seems like Disney has lost a lot of its emphasis since KH1. Honestly at this point, I could care less about Sora, Riku, Kairi, and all this darkness bull crap. I just want to be playing alongside my favorite Disney characters while trying to save the world. I don't need 3 different versions of Sora, Ansem, Riku, to the point I have no idea what's going on anymore, cause I haven't even touched the games in ages. The game has lost its simplicity and touch. At least 3DS seems to be going back to its Disney roots. I just hope they aren't hub worlds to move the story, and actually make the disney characters more involved.

Epic Mickey did that well.
 

Master Xanthan

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I don't. I mean, the whole point of Kingdom Hearts was to mix the RPG story and style we all love from Square games with Disney. It just seems like Disney has lost a lot of its emphasis since KH1. Honestly at this point, I could care less about Sora, Riku, Kairi, and all this darkness bull crap. I just want to be playing alongside my favorite Disney characters while trying to save the world. I don't need 3 different versions of Sora, Ansem, Riku, to the point I have no idea what's going on anymore, cause I haven't even touched the games in ages. The game has lost its simplicity and touch. At least 3DS seems to be going back to its Disney roots. I just hope they aren't hub worlds to move the story, and actually make the disney characters more involved.

Epic Mickey did that well.
I honestly like the fact that the story is more focused on non-Disney characters now. Its a little difficult to have Disney characters too involved in the story when most of the Disney worlds aren't supposed to know that there are other worlds. Only a few Disney characters actually know that other worlds outside of their own exist.
 

theeboredone

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That theory is sort of flawed, cause all the villains knew each other such as Maleficient, Pete, Jafar, etc. It just seemed like, for whatever inexpilcable reason, they opted to have the heroes be oblivious to what the hell was going on around them. I got into this series for its Disney characters, and while it's always great to see guys like Cloud, Sephiroth, Squall kick some ***, characters like Sora and Riku have never been up on my favorite list. It's just my personal opinion that I see it as a travesty that...what they used as their main draw has now been reduced to a side show act.
 

Master Xanthan

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That theory is sort of flawed, cause all the villains knew each other such as Maleficient, Pete, Jafar, etc. It just seemed like, for whatever inexpilcable reason, they opted to have the heroes be oblivious to what the hell was going on around them. I got into this series for its Disney characters, and while it's always great to see guys like Cloud, Sephiroth, Squall kick some ***, characters like Sora and Riku have never been up on my favorite list. It's just my personal opinion that I see it as a travesty that...what they used as their main draw has now been reduced to a side show act.
That's what brought me in at first too, the Disney characters. I still like that the game has Disney characters, but eventually as I played Kingdom Hearts I starting liking the original characters of Kingdom Hearts more than the Disney characters. Though I do like Donald, Goofy, and Mickey because they play a much larger role than the other Disney heroes that are basically don't have a clue as to what is really going on outside of their own world.
 

Roxas215

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Everyone came to the series at first for the disney characters but stayed for the story and the original characters.

Donald/Goofy would make no sense to be partners in this game as their in the dream realm. And no other "disney" partners are there either.

However the opening just confirmed D/G are still important in this series as there seen in the end with all the other wielders. Basically confirmation there going to be involved in the final fight vs Xehanort.


Anyway the full cgi opening was released. It's FREAKING AMAZING and the end just makes it all worth it. Idc how long KH3 takes. Just knowing that this scene will be part of that make the wait worth it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kWIJ8gR5qWg


And i really wish people would say the handheld games are spinoffs. No one of them are. BBS is currently the most important game in the series and this game looks to even surpass that.
 

Sephirothxxx

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Everyone came to the series at first for the disney characters but stayed for the story and the original characters.

Donald/Goofy would make no sense to be partners in this game as their in the dream realm. And no other "disney" partners are there either.

However the opening just confirmed D/G are still important in this series as there seen in the end with all the other wielders. Basically confirmation there going to be involved in the final fight vs Xehanort.


Anyway the full cgi opening was released. It's FREAKING AMAZING and the end just makes it all worth it. Idc how long KH3 takes. Just knowing that this scene will be part of that make the wait worth it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kWIJ8gR5qWg


And i really wish people would say the handheld games are spinoffs. No one of them are. BBS is currently the most important game in the series and this game looks to even surpass that.
Get HYPE! I gotta check out that link!
 

theeboredone

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Just finished watching that video. I really hope there's a legitimate explanation on why
characters like Roxas Xion, and Namine are back.
I don't want it to be "herp derp, FRIENDSHIP GUYZ!"
 

Roxas215

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Just finished watching that video. I really hope there's a legitimate explanation on why
characters like Roxas Xion, and Namine are back.
I don't want it to be "herp derp, FRIENDSHIP GUYZ!"

Xion and Namine in that opening were only in the recap scenes. The only characters confirmed to be fully restored are the ones in the end which are Terra Ven and Roxas.

Not to say i dont think Xion and Namine are coming back. But this opening doesn't confirm that. It just confirms Roxas. I do find it weird Xion wasn't there at the end though. Maybe she's not getting a full revival but rather her being "saved" means people will finally remember her?
 

theeboredone

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I thought they showed
all 3 at the end?
I don't know what that scene in itself implies, but I'm just asking for a legitimate reason if said stuff happens.
 

Roxas215

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I thought they showed
all 3 at the end?
I don't know what that scene in itself implies, but I'm just asking for a legitimate reason if said stuff happens.
Nope only
Roxas. The people at the end are Sora/Riku/Mickey then Terra/Aqua/Ven/Roxas then Donald/Goofy then it pans out to show all of them.
 

theeboredone

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Sometimes it feels like I've been waiting longer for FF13 Versus than KH3 -_-. Probably because of the side games we've gotten.
 

Jem.

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If you just spoiled a big part of the game for me by responding to a spoiler, I am going to break your computer. I've been dodging spoilers for several months.

Also, so stoked for KH3D on the 31st :D. Gonna replay the whole series before then.
 

RespawningJesus

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Lol. At least you didn't have a friend who spoiled the whole plot to the game. I blame Japan and the fact that my friend doesn't own a 3DS.

Still pre-ordered the MoM edition. 10 years of KH, might as well get it to celebrate. (Plus what it comes with is pretty worth it for $15 more.)

As for Kairi dying, it feels like it, as we haven't really seen much of her recently. (In other words, it is not a spoiler, so you can relax a bit folks.)

:phone:
 

Master Xanthan

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Lol. At least you didn't have a friend who spoiled the whole plot to the game. I blame Japan and the fact that my friend doesn't own a 3DS.

Still pre-ordered the MoM edition. 10 years of KH, might as well get it to celebrate. (Plus what it comes with is pretty worth it for $15 more.)

As for Kairi dying, it feels like it, as we haven't really seen much of her recently. (In other words, it is not a spoiler, so you can relax a bit folks.)

:phone:
He spoiled the whole plot for you?! Wow I'd be so pissed off if that happened to me. A few games got spoiled for me this year ( and I didn't ask for any of them to be spoiled, lucky 2 out of 3 were relatively minor spoilers).
 

RespawningJesus

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Yeah. Still hate him for it. Thankfully, he just gave me the short version, so a lot of details were most likely missed. Still, I was pretty pissed off the first time he told me.

:phone:
 

Jem.

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Sounds like Final Fantasy Versus XIII is cancelled. A shame, but that game was in development hell. The plus side is that Nomura said work on Kingdom Hearts 3 wasn't happening until Versus was finished. And now with it terminated, hopefully that means work will begin on it right away.

I wonder if KH3 had any reason for him to part with it. There is rumored one more game after KH3D before KH3 and most fans think it was going to be non-canon or a way to recap the old games and new games together without having to buy 17 different systems. If that is/still holds true, then maybe they realized fans can't wait that long for KH3 with nothing to look forward to. Woot
 

VictoryIsMudkipz

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I can't wait another six years for KH3 to come out, man Square is slacking, canceling games, putting games on the back burner forever, not developing a game, because of bigger priority when then that gets pushed back for years & years. I understand Final Fantasy is popular & all but F**k man work on one game & focus on other IP's like ummmm KINGDOM FU**ING HEARTS 3
 

Jem.

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To be fair, don't even play KH3 if you haven't played Birth By Sleep, if you aren't going to play KH3D, and havent seen the ending of Re:Coded. It'll be a cluster-mess like the beginning of KH2 for everyone that didn't play Chain of Memories or atleast read the game script.
 
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