KIDs ATs (only high level Sonics need enter here) NOW WITH CHAR. SPECIFIC ATS!!!

[Tenki]

@spinshot talk:
yeh, I usually spinshot overhead > drop B-air but I really don't see alot of usage where the Sonic uses spinshot to jump into an opponent's aerial dead time ^^;

 

[da K.I.D.]

thats cus in that sitch usually the other guy is short hopping it, and in that case the spinshot will go over their head

i do however like to iSDJ into fair while people are falling from the top of the screen

 

[da K.I.D.]

bumped because i need effing testers.

 

[ithrowthings]

bumped because i need effing testers.

I'll try theory 2 and 3 next time I'm at my friend's house. (My wii broke cuz I playeded it too much....)

I can't ever say 100% when moves work and don't work because I don't do analytical frame data, but If I'm curious about moves I'll try it in slo-mo, practice, and of course most importantly, real people and the things that I have determined for myself to "work" and "not work" either "work" or "don't work" in the tournaments that I go to.

I'm actually most interested in theory #3 and not so much #2 cause I usually use my neutral b about twice a match at most. I can almost guarantee that #2 won't work but #3 might be a viable option.

 

[Espy Rose]

God****it KID. You caught me on a boring day.

I'll test theory 3.

EDIT:

I was testing out whether or not nair has the properties for a lock.
The last hit of nair definately does put them into the jab lock state, however, I think it may be overly difficult to not only set up, but also impossible to continue a chain of nairs across a level.

Reason being was that the opponent kept getting up before I could hit the second nair off.

Of course, I was only messing around with it for 20 minutes, so more testing should be necessary.

But based on what I did test out, nair was impossible to use over and over again in a jab lock, but can be used to start one, based on the properties of the last hit of nair.

Besides, it's only about 2% more than a normal jab in a lock. Quite the large amount of work would have to go into setting it up at all.

However, more options is always good.

 

[da K.I.D.]

yea, i tested it myself just recently, it sucks...

oh well...

KID Theory #3 has been...
DEBUNKED!!!

 

[Kinzer]

Was that debunk from the testing I did earlier this morning K.I.D.?

 

[da K.I.D.]

no.

you were testing what damages n air can start a jab lock,

we were testing whether or not it could sustain a jab lock

 

[Kinzer]

Ah okay, but who is "we?"

 

[da K.I.D.]

me and puffy

 

[da K.I.D.]

Bowser
At 0% he gets hit once and then can fall and shield or grab. He only takes 6%
My Best: 13 hits from 6% – 51%, involves a lot of reversals
He can easily footstool out by 24% at latest
And he can usually shield after about 3 hits

This was done to a Bowser at lvl 9 in brawl mode (not training, so diminishing returns is calculated in) on final destination. It may be important to note that if we were on a stage with a slant, that you could theoretically get more.

Is this the kind of thing you are looking for?

For Bowser, I would say it is better to tilt AFTER the last one if you aren't expecting to get more than 3 or so. If you somehow manage to keep him in the chain until that 13th hit than I would say it is probably better to grab him after the 12th.

Ganondorf
0% - 37% has been my best which is 9 hits.
Typically he shields after 3 which is 0% - 16%
He can also shield after 1 hit which is only 6%.

Same controlled variables as the bowser situation.

I would say that you should typically try for a grab after the very first one. Unless you manage to hit him from very close to Sonic's body rather than with the tip of the shoe. If you manage to get in close enough to him to do hit with his leg rather than his shoe, than you could probably get about 3 hits and then have to grab. I was never able to get more than 4 hits except on the one time that I reached 9. The 9 may have been influenced by the fact that I was getting a little closer to the edge.

DK
8 hits for 0% -31%
Typically he jumps out after 16 – 20 %, 3 or 4 hits.
He has actually been able to get out after the very first hit, especially if he hits forward B.
My guess is that its best to grab after 2nd or 3rd hit or even 1st hit.
I've only gotten him to 8 hits a few times.

Also, if they trip, then you can sometimes get a lot more hits. Like I think I got 12 hits after DK tripped on one.

ROB
It may just be that I am having a hard time with him, but the very most that I got was 3 hits for like 15% or something. That involved me hitting with the very tip of my shoe.
Usually, I can only get one. and he is already so far above my head that he can get out a fair and stop me from doing anything else. Probably grab after the very first. But you may just want to try to hit your own fair or shield and then grab or something.

ok, so I'm trying snake and he taunted me and I just learned that you press A to pick up his box and throw it at him automatically. I can't believe I didn't know that until now!!

So,
Snake
my max: 13 hits 0 - 51%
Typically, its easy to get about 6 hits. Just make sure to hit with the leg area above Sonic's sock. (sock?) Then I would grab after that, since he will pull out a grenade and get hit, thus dropping it and causing you to hit that as well and blow up. I'd say 6 is still a little high, but you can at least get 4 or 5 no problem. Even 10 on Snake is a lot easier than 3 on ROB

I'm sick of trying on Falco

So far, my best is 6 hits from 0 - 31%.
He is soo hard to get close enough to to make this work that I highly doubt that it will ever be a good option to try to do to him.
On the plus side. You can get it three times pretty easily on average and this 3 times can be done up until like high 50s% to low 60s%

Dedede
I got from 11 - 40 with 6 hits.
I also got 6% - 37% with 8 hits
On average I can't get more than 3 hits. Dedede can easily just press B to do his suck up or w/e attack. It ruins it every time. I'd say grab either before or after the third hit, but make sure to do it fast. The down tilt is stupid on dedede IMO. It hits him really high, but he falls again really fast. It's really misleading because it appears that you should be able to keep it going, but the height he gets allows him to DI, midair dodge, or attack even with the quick fall speed. I may test him more another time.

this is the kind of down tilt information that I need for everycharacter.

 

[ithrowthings]

I tried everything I could for your #3 theory and simply couldn't get it to work... I also had some questions about jab locking in general. I never really bother to incorporate it into my strategy at tournaments because it relies so heavily on your opponent NOT teching, but if I side b to footstool I've always just done a fastfall to jab lock but you said a spring to d-air works as well? I was trying this but they stood up too fast for me to start the jab lock...

Also, for thoery #1, b-air does hit MK out of the whorenado but it all depends on placement. I've only done it once or twice and I usually use it when the MK tries an aggressive recovery using the whorenado. It's usually better to just use a f-smash against it but the b-air CAN hit a MK out of the nado. As far as the b-air in general, it's all about the spacing. Olimar is a good example because if he aims his u-smash right the best thing you can hope for is to hit the pikmin itself and not olimar. In most cases the pikmin is your opponent unless it's a sword then it simply comes down to priority and timing. The best thing to stop people from land camping you is to simply mix it up as best you can.

I might be talking apples in the case of b-airs and you may have been talking oranges but I hope I explained myself good enough. Sometimes smash bros. is more of a "feeling" than anything else.

 

[da K.I.D.]

yea, i tested it myself and i couldnt get number 3 to word either.

about jab locks.
yes actually, side b hop to spring to downair to Jlock was the first jlock setup ever discovered for sonic. But its hard you have to hit them with the hop at like the 20-60% range because you have to footstool them at a height where they wont be able to DI from the spring. because the falling spring in this case acts like the first jab of the jab lock and holds them in place long enough for you to do an AC down air and continue the jlock.
the method i had was to just forego the spring entirely and immediately down air, you have to space it so that you dont hit your FSd opponent with the down air, but if you do it right, even with the d air lag, if you buffer a turnaround jab, it will initiate a lock.

as for theory 1, i was using back air as a means of getting to the ground safely after using a spring toget out of a bad situation but it sounded like you got the gist, and from what you say, it sounds like doing it consistently is pretty feasible against the land camps of certain characters.

 

[ithrowthings]

yea, i tested it myself and i couldnt get number 3 to word either.

about jab locks.
yes actually, side b hop to spring to downair to Jlock was the first jlock setup ever discovered for sonic. But its hard you have to hit them with the hop at like the 20-60% range because you have to footstool them at a height where they wont be able to DI from the spring. because the falling spring in this case acts like the first jab of the jab lock and holds them in place long enough for you to do an AC down air and continue the jlock.
the method i had was to just forego the spring entirely and immediately down air, you have to space it so that you dont hit your FSd opponent with the down air, but if you do it right, even with the d air lag, if you buffer a turnaround jab, it will initiate a lock.

as for theory 1, i was using back air as a means of getting to the ground safely after using a spring toget out of a bad situation but it sounded like you got the gist, and from what you say, it sounds like doing it consistently is pretty feasible against the land camps of certain characters.

man, you respond quickly, ever consider becoming a TO? Anyhoo, you really gotta consider who you're going up against for using bair against their u-smash or u-tilt. Pretty much any character with a sword and you're gonna eat it HARD. I could try and take note of which characters I have more success with and which ones I don't but I'd say 75% of the time it's not a good idea to try the b-air if they're going for an attack because theirs usually outprioritizes or hits you in a way or a place that makes you feel uncomfortable.... and as we all know, that's no good.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i would like to have some kind of privledges but i dont really have resources like that.

either way thanks for the info.
i do know that it works really well on snake though. beats the hell outta his up tilt.

hmmm... looks like ill have to stick with praying that holding the shield button works and mindgaming laggy down airs.

 

[Tenki]

yea, i tested it myself and i couldnt get number 3 to word either.

about jab locks.
yes actually, side b hop to spring to downair to Jlock was the first jlock setup ever discovered for sonic. But its hard you have to hit them with the hop at like the 20-60% range because you have to footstool them at a height where they wont be able to DI from the spring. because the falling spring in this case acts like the first jab of the jab lock and holds them in place long enough for you to do an AC down air and continue the jlock.
the method i had was to just forego the spring entirely and immediately down air, you have to space it so that you dont hit your FSd opponent with the down air, but if you do it right, even with the d air lag, if you buffer a turnaround jab, it will initiate a lock.

as for theory 1, i was using back air as a means of getting to the ground safely after using a spring toget out of a bad situation but it sounded like you got the gist, and from what you say, it sounds like doing it consistently is pretty feasible against the land camps of certain characters.

You can actually adjust the height depending on how early in the hop you hit your opponent.

It's a combination of getting the timing (and their falltime) right so the spring hits them before they can tech, while allowing you to autocancel D-air without the D-air hitting them, but before they can get up from the spring hit.


Also, for most characters, 30-40% is the limit because otherwise, the spring will make them stand up in hitstun (like D3's chaingrab hitstun).

And, spring (recovering) > footstool on an opponent who's planning to camp your landing with a smash (think Ike U-smash or MK D-smash) is kind of funny.

 

[da K.I.D.]

keep in mind that im talkling about after you use a spring to escape from a bad sitch...

but FSing people is wayy too dangerous but its good to know

 

[da K.I.D.]

i still need a write up of all the different boxtechs.
if somebody could do a writeup of boxcancelling first that would be nice.

 

[Trillion]

Hey, just making sure you had a chance to see the sonic down tilt stuff since it got bumped off the front page pretty quickly. I don't know if it is all that useful of information, but I tried to be pretty detailed with it. Take a look at it if you haven't already. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=216027

 

[da K.I.D.]

*important! announcement*
magnum was actually smart enough to listen to me and compile this information. Thank you very much.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=216027



KID AT #8!

Double Ledgehop Attacks


Normally I tend to get very wordy with my definitions of these moves, but this will be just the opposite. When you hang on the ledge, you can fall off, double jump and forward air the opposite and land on the stage. But if you are fast enough pulling off this move, the forward air will end and you can n air before you even hit the ground.

And the properties of this combination make it very effective because the n air is begun so close to the ground that
1. only the strongest hitbox will activate. and
2. the n air will land during the strongest hit, and as far as I can tell, landing during that beginning phase, is the n air landing that has the least amount of landing lag. so this move in entirety is pretty close to lagless as well.

p.s. just to let you know, after the f air in this string, you can also spring, or do a side b, which can be boxcanceled. you can also with great timing, it should be able to ASC cancel as well, but it seems moot, because you wont move very far before you stop if you shield cancel it, so you are just better off box cancelling it. (side b) because its much easier.

OH SNAP!!
as im typing this i just realised you can HA as well out of the ledgehopped f air.
MINDGAAAAAMMMEESSS!!

just dont try to do any other airials beside n air, lest you land super laggy.

oops i got mad wordy again. oh well w/e

latest additions to the first post,

yes i saw it mag, thank you very much, its highly appreciated.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I also have another AT that I am going to write up tomorrow that has to do with diddys bananas...

I havent really tested it too much but, I dont see any reason why it couldnt work...

 

[da K.I.D.]

KID AT #9!!

Fun times with bananas and lag.


A fun move that I thought of. When you fight diddy, if you can get a hold of a banana, a great set up could be to:

Charge a spindash from a good distance away, hit them with it, pull a spindash jump, z drop the banana and immediately down air.

Its great because it covers a vast majority of the options that that diddy has, if he tries to up air you out of shield, the banana should hit them first and the down air should combo. If he stays in his shield, the banana will hit the shield and they might unshield for the down air, if they do shield the down air, than as soon as they try to punish, they will trip on the banana, and thats sets up for tons of stuff for us.

 

[Jim Morrison]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCAjmuA1HDk

This song popped into mind when reading that. Sounds cool, but... would there be better options with nanur. Also, shieldgrablol.

 

[da K.I.D.]

if they grab you the banana you z droped, fall right where they are standign and they trip...

thats part of teh bait as well.

 

[Jim Morrison]

That is genius. Let's go to items on tourneys.

 

[infomon]

Yeop, there's a lot of crazy stuff like that we can do with bananas.
Like here's just a variant of what you said:
charge down-B
roll across a banana on the ground
SDJ + z-catch the item with it
z-drop the item onto diddy in that same SDJ
then Dair

Or like, falling Nair, or whatever you want.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Kid your AT #8 is useless.
a ledgehop with a Fair+Nair?
bad idea.

The main reason is due to the poor range on both of the moves., especially the nair.
You are much better off you a reversed Bair after you ledge hop ecause of the range and priority on the move.

Sonic is limited when he is climbing up from the edge and a number of characters can simply putprioritize or clash with your attack. Considering the knockback from the nair and Fair aren't large, you'll most likely suffer the worst of it.

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

Yeop, there's a lot of crazy stuff like that we can do with bananas.
Like here's just a variant of what you said:
charge down-B
roll across a banana on the ground
SDJ + z-catch the item with it
z-drop the item onto diddy in that same SDJ
then Dair

that sounds delicious

 

[Camalange]

I love playing Diddy.

<3 Bananas

 

[thecatinthehat]

Diddy is fun to play against.

Easy to gimp.

 

[thecatinthehat]

So I'm just gonna post my random convoluted combos here from now on.

Everyone knows about MalcolmM's up throw > foxtrot B-reversed spin cancel > grab.

I was playing over the weekend and pulled something sexier.

Jab AAA combo > foxtrot B-reversed spin cancel > grab.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Kid your AT #8 is useless.
a ledgehop with a Fair+Nair?
bad idea.

The main reason is due to the poor range on both of the moves., especially the nair.
You are much better off you a reversed Bair after you ledge hop ecause of the range and priority on the move.

Sonic is limited when he is climbing up from the edge and a number of characters can simply putprioritize or clash with your attack. Considering the knockback from the nair and Fair aren't large, you'll most likely suffer the worst of it.

once again you come to me trying to bring me down with theory, while im coming to you after testing in real time with real tournament level opponents telling you that it works.

if you ledgehop forward with the forward air, you can still hit marth at max forward smash range.

also most characters tend to be significantly closer to the edge, when they try to impede you recovery from the ledge to the stage. ledgehop forward air is a basic move that is highly effective.

the important part is when they learn to shield it, from there they will try to unshield and punish, but if they had to shield the f air while you are moving forward, you are going to be on top of them anyway so the n air doesnt really have a chance at missing. so in that sitch they can either get hit by the n air, or shield it, and with the short landing lag of the move, theres still a chance that we can get away before their counterattack comes out.

the basic gist that im getting from you is that you really arent good enough at the game to make these things useful, and instead of trying to make yourself better at the game, you brush it off as the move not working, as opposed to your own incapabilities.

Focus on actually getting good at the game before you tell me that the shiz i tested against high level players doesnt work

 

[Jim Morrison]

I like ledgehop F-air. I use it more than B-air.

 

[da K.I.D.]

infzys string would require a lot of timing and precision,

can somebody put up a vid of them doing that?

 

[ShadowLink84]

once again you come to me trying to bring me down with theory, while im coming to you after testing in real time with real tournament level opponents telling you that it works.

once again you make an automatic assumption of your opponent.
I didn't test it kid?
i never used it in a tournament?
Do me a favor and quit your assumptions, you discredit yourself each time you start tapping away on the keyboard.

if you ledgehop forward with the forward air, you can still hit marth at max forward smash range.

And you would eat the fsmash before you would hit marth. Or dtilt, or an Ftilt.
Smart edge guarding makes a ledgehop Fair a poor option against characters with better range which is a majority of the characters.

A smart opponent will NEVER stand on top of the eldge where Sonic can simply Fair them with ease.
It NEVER happens.

also most characters tend to be significantly closer to the edge, when they try to impede you recovery from the ledge to the stage. ledgehop forward air is a basic move that is highly effective.

Which is stupid, and dumb.
why would a character try to impede sonic's recovery unless they had superb edge guarding skills?
An opponent that knows their character inside and out will NOT be close to the edge where you can simply fair them.

When I played El's Marth, he never stayed near the eldge for me to ledgehop a Fair on him. best option was, you guessed it, the Bair.

the important part is when they learn to shield it, from there they will try to unshield and punish, but if they had to shield the f air while you are moving forward, you are going to be on top of them anyway so the n air doesnt really have a chance at missing. so in that sitch they can either get hit by the n air, or shield it, and with the short landing lag of the move, theres still a chance that we can get away before their counterattack comes out.

This is stupid.
if you fsmash, I'll shield the attack and grab you.
Well if you try to shield my attack, I won't attack.
See the major fault?
you're making an assumption that your opponent will do this in response when they can imply spam their safest move over and over.
Falco can spam his laser or Dair.
IC's can just use blizzard or iceblocks.
marth can Ftilt or Fair
Falcon can Ftilt.

Every character has a better option over Sonic's SH Fair because the range on the Fair is poor for one, and when it clashes, Sonic is more often than not, going to take the worst of hit.

stuff

oh so you fall down to using bald faced lies again?
That I suck as a gamer? Laughable.

Okay, I'll call you out on your stupidity.

I will $100 dollar money match your *** in a Sonic ditto.
I'll not only prove that you speak like a scrub, but that you play like one too.

 

[Browny]

Chis, serious internet business picture gooooo

 

[ShadowLink84]

Chis, serious internet business picture gooooo

=p Stop hatin hater

 

[thecatinthehat]

I <3 NY.

Nuff said.

We should have a Sonic tourney here in NY.

KID, Shadow, Boxob, MalcolmM, Me.

**** would be amazing.

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol dude, ur bad.

dont step up unless you are ready to get smacked back down.

you are also expecting perfection and not looking at all the possibilities, its expected from youat this point.

did you seriously just say that charcters that are bad at defending ledge-hangers from returning to the stage, dont even bother trying to guard the ledge?

Every character and every player will attempt to keep you on the edge and off the stage, it doesnt matter how bad they are at it.

Please stop bringing up the worst possible example of why things dont work. its tiring, because you know just as well as I do that sonic has no one tech that will work on every character. duh, if marth stands at max tipper range, this probably wont work, as a matter of fact, if you are hanging on the edge against a marth, why the hell would you even try to do anything offensive? not only is that dumb, but that also doesnt prove that this move doesnt work.

Just like every move on this entire list, it requires some skill, and some mindgames, and in some cases a lot of luck an timing, because any character can beat any move we do if we try to do it head on, but its sonics abilities to attack quickly from many different angles that makes him good.

and to your thought that people dont stand close enough to hit with ledgehop forward airs, dude, it happens ALLLLL the time, i dont get how you cant see that...

of course some characters can negate this move. Marth, Snake, Falco to name a few. But theres also a bunch of characters that put themselves in the position for this all the time, like MK, D3 and ROB. and FYI, falcons f tilt doesnt have shiat on this, you should think before you type...

lol, i thought i wouldnt have to deal with you anymore, but it seems like you never miss an oppurtunity to try and put a ***** (black man) down.

EDIT
DJB is 222222222GUD!!!

 

[ShadowLink84]

lol dude, ur bad.

lol dude ur stupid.

dont step up unless you are ready to get smacked back down.

Considering i made the challenge...

you are also expecting perfection and not looking at all the possibilities, its expected from youat this point.

Perfection? Nay, common sense. you don't jump out or rush close to the edge for people to hit you.
this isn't melee.
There is sweetspotting to deal with.

did you seriously just say that charcters that are bad at defending ledge-hangers from returning to the stage, dont even bother trying to guard the ledge?

no, learn to read. is aid character that are bad at guarding the edge will NOT stick themselves up close for Sonic to Fair them.

Every character and every player will attempt to keep you on the edge and off the stage, it doesnt matter how bad they are at it.

Yes they will, but they won't play a game where they are risking their *** for it.
Go watch ryoko's Zelda and Sheik.
They only get up clsoe when they know you cannot retaliate effectively, otherwise, they space themselves properly.

Please stop bringing up the worst possible example of why things dont work. its tiring, because you know just as well as I do that sonic has no one tech that will work on every character. duh, if marth stands at max tipper range, this probably wont work, as a matter of fact, if you are hanging on the edge against a marth, why the hell would you even try to do anything offensive? not only is that dumb, but that also doesnt prove that this move doesnt work.

Which is why i listed OTHER characters.
That you WILL encounter.
if you want i can list other characters options as well since you apparently are too ignorant to know them.

stuff

Luck and mindgames cannot be factored. We are looking at things at a high level of play already so why mention it?
Fact of the matter is, Fair or nair are poorer weapons to sue in comparison to bair against the majority of characters.

and to your thought that people dont stand close enough to hit with ledgehop forward airs, dude, it happens ALLLLL the time, i dont get how you cant see that...

it happens ALLLLL the time with you and the people YOU play. It does not work that way universally.
Look at the videos of Malcolm and the people he faces. they do not stick themselves in to get SH Fair.
No character is going to do it.

of course some characters can negate this move. Marth, Snake, Falco to name a few. But theres also a bunch of characters that put themselves in the position for this all the time, like MK, D3 and ROB. and FYI, falcons f tilt doesnt have shiat on this, you should think before you type...

This is why you get destroyed ina rguments.
You do not read and you strawman.

and when it clashes, Sonic is more often than not, going to take the worst of hit.

If Falcon Ftilts when you Fair, what do you think happens? It clashes.
Falcon can space it so that as soon as you activate your Fair, it clashes and what happens to Falcon? He takes 1% sometimes 0%
You on the other hand, get bounced away.

lol, i thought i wouldnt have to deal with you anymore, but it seems like you never miss an oppurtunity to try and put a ***** (black man) down.

I am puerto Rican and part black.
You bringing up racism only shows you have an inferiority complex.
Just like you brought up calling me a nazi. fun stuff ya?