Keyboard legality in console tourneys (POLL)..

[cmu6eh]

No, you can't. Explain to me how you can achieve rapid directional input with an analog joystick anywhere near the frequency you can with a keyboard button? It's not possible.

I don't think you understand the definition of possible.

Vibrate your hand by turning your wrist really quickly, sorta like picking a guitar string really fast. That's how to button mash really well also.


Edit:
Clubba re your prosthetic argument, Oscar Pistorius competed in the 2012 olympics. There are no rules against it.

So IMO you can't really compare them to something like a keyboard, which has a completely different form of input, which we know wasn't intended for ssb. If it was they wouldn't have disabled the d-pad.

The developers don't "Disable" the d-pad.

All of the input is equal in the eyes of the CPU. It is just a string of 32 bits. Would it make you happier if you would be able to use the d-pad for smash? I can arrange it. Actually it is already done; the way my software works allows you to use whatever buttons you want to write that 32 bit string.

 

[clubbadubba]

I know Pistorius competed, kinda what put my mind on it. However, when it gets to the point where prosthetics are faster than humans, I'm pretty sure there will be a discussion and rules will be made. I don't think they want to make able-bodied sprinters obsolete.

 

[SheerMadness]

cmu dude you're the only person in this thread trying to argue that keyboard doesn't provide an advantage in DI. Even the keyboard players posting in here agree lol. They just contend that while keyboard does offer an advantage in DI, it's disadvantaged compared to a controller in many other aspects.

It seems like you're blindly disagreeing with anything I say just to support your pet project. Do you honestly think you can spam an analog joystick in a direction as fast as you can a keyboard button??

Like clubba said the real issue comes down to whether or not the keyboard's disadvantages even out it's clear cut DI advantage. And like he said, that's a pretty hazy subject.

 

[Olikus]

I think its even out. Im aware of a lot of keyboard players, and only mahie and killer have crazy DI. There are at least 2 controll people with crazy DI. If many more poeple starts playing with keyboard, and they all get crazy DI, I might change opinion. BUt for now its all theorys, and I think we should try it before banning it =)

 

[Cobrevolution]

iirc the dpad is disabled in mario party as well. as long as we're still using outside analogies.

 

[Yobolight]

The more I think about this, the more I am starting to think that it should be legal, just because it is going to just be possibly two people (Star King and Bane).

Those two are phenomenal players and deserve to be able to attend tournaments if they choose.

 

[cmu6eh]

The more I think about this, the more I am starting to think that it should be legal, just because it is going to just be possibly two people (Star King and Bane).

Those two are phenomenal players and deserve to be able to attend tournaments if they choose.

Now you just need to convince yourself that average KB players should be able to do it too lol

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

And bane, I guess I just disagree with you about keyboard being inferior. Yes keyboard has its shortcoming with movement, but it is also possible to immediately change directions on keyboard, whereas on stick you have physically move the control stick from one position to another. Helpful with spacing as well as movement in terms of dashing and pivoting. I guess to me the positives/negatives of keyboard vs controller movement are very hazy and tough to add up, but the DI advantage is clear cut, which is why my opinion is that keyboard is inherently better.

multi-dimensional aiming is pretty clear cut. so is not having to buffer everything. like if i do a side tilt with fox, decide that i want to laser so i take my finger off the side directional arrow, but then decide to do another side tilt instead, i would have to first do a quick jab or a grab so that i can buffer the direction again. this is an incredibly situational scenario of course but it's the idea behind it that counts and there's lots of little situations like these where i end up having to do something less efficient even though i'm aware that a more efficient option exists

and dashing/pivots aren't impossible or anything on controller lol. i feel like potential-wise controller is definitely the best option of play but DI/a few other things like pivot uptilts are easier on kb

 

[asianaussie]

the DI advantage isn't in the raw potential for DI, it's just that you can achieve a competitive level of DI with less effort and practice than controller players need for that DI (also you don't have to keep replacing sticks)

it's like how keyboard players have to get buffering and non-buffered/run-off u-airs second-nature, it's not very intuitive in comparison to control stick usage but you can get it down with practice

 

[M!nt]

Idk why you guys care about whether the developers knew about the controllers being used. I doubt they cared at all about what controllers are going to be used. I would say that them not using the dpad was more of an idea that is was unnecessary rather than a balancing choice. tons of games only use the control stick and vice versa. It wasn't made to be a competitive game, it's a party game.

 

[kys]

Idk why you guys care about whether the developers knew about the controllers being used. I doubt they cared at all about what controllers are going to be used. I would say that them not using the dpad was more of an idea that is was unnecessary rather than a balancing choice. tons of games only use the control stick and vice versa. It wasn't made to be a competitive game, it's a party game.

Mint, mint, mint, my old friend, you're better than this. We have no idea what the "developers intentions were". Do any of us know them personally? Did they ever release official statements about what their intentions were? Of course not. Let's not make assumptions and use them in debates. (I realize you're not the only one doing this)

Bane's argument about having to buffer and having the less-than-optimal strategy is the best argument I've heard from the keyboarders.

The big hurdle I see happening in the future is when you do get Killer DI at a tourney. I have never seen anyone but Killer DI BEHIND Fox when he's jabbed at 0%, as an example. This would be obviously upsetting to someone. Smash is a game that rewards you for winning the neutral battle. Having that reward taken away, but remaining for the opponent, is simply not fair. And as AA wisely pointed out, controller users have the problem of worn out sticks.

My 2 cents is that the hax DI outweighs the other keyboard deficiency Bane mentioned. I would also be against it for potentially allowing a dangerous precedent to be set, BUT it seems as though it may be in the best interest in this community to give it a test run and see what happens. Until we see practical results the vote is going to split and there will be no satisfactory solution

 

[cmu6eh]

And as AA wisely pointed out, controller users have the problem of worn out sticks.

Controller sticks get worn out. Why make more sticks get worn out by making everyone use controller sticks?

 

[SheerMadness]

Unfortunately we don't have anyone who's like equally competent on both keyboard and controller to give us the real scoop. From what I see it certainly doesn't seem like Bane, Killer, or Star King have any significant spacing disadvantages or what not.

I mean Killer runs around pivot up-tilting with Kirby at like 100% accuracy. That **** is pretty hard on a 64 controller. I can't do it at anywhere near 100% accuracy. So I'm sure there are certain things that are easier on keyboard and certain things that are easier on controller.

But yah playing someone with Killer like DI in a tourney setting would be so maddening. That's mainly why I'm against keyboards being legal. Someone who's on my level with DI that's 20 times better than me, ughhhhh.

 

[Yobolight]

I have never seen anyone but Killer DI BEHIND Fox when he's jabbed at 0%, as an example.

Damn that is sick, how is Killer not best in the world?

 

[M!nt]

because di is like the least important thing imo

Unfortunately we don't have anyone who's like equally competent on both keyboard and controller to give us the real scoop.

boom is!

 

[kys]

Controller sticks get worn out. Why make more sticks get worn out by making everyone use controller sticks?

That was a major side point. This discussion has mainly started because original N64 controllers are no longer manufactured (as far as I understand it), so I get what you're saying. Down the road I do see controller alternatives as being our only option. In a couple of years this may be the impetus to condone other controller options if we want to keep this community alive.

Damn that is sick, how is Killer not best in the world?

Can't tell if serious. If you are, you overvalue DI (even tho it's still very important). If you aren't, then you need to play Killer. That is all.

 

[Battlecow]

Yo to everyone saying they just "couldn't stand" to play killer DI on console, there are definitely console, n64 pad users who have better DI than killer. His DI's kind of strong sometimes but peeps are exaggerating up in here.

there are a couple of good KB DIers tho

 

[LLDL]

Killer is ****in hard I have only taken like one game of fox dittos out of like 20. All the more reason for me to just level up instead of thinking for one minute that he's beating me because of the keyboard. He's just better than me.

 

[M!nt]

Mint, mint, mint, my old friend, you're better than this. We have no idea what the "developers intentions were". Do any of us know them personally? Did they ever release official statements about what their intentions were? Of course not. Let's not make assumptions and use them in debates. (I realize you're not the only one doing this)

Except, I'm not claiming to know what the developers were thinking. I was just mentioning to the people that were talking about it, that it might not be that big of a deal when stuff was made before or after the game. None of my post claimed that I knew anything, it was just my opinion.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

not to mention that all these sports analogies seem to base their primary argument off the assumption that kb is a superior control scheme

which has already been explained several times that it's not. it may be better in the DI aspect for some people (and on a side note, i just got done playing dexter and he had way better DI than me), but it's worse in nearly every other one

This. Comparing steroids and kb use, what?

Random note, if we wanted to do what the developers intended for 64, we'd be using items and random stges also. That is how the game is "truly" played is it not?

 

[clubbadubba]

No because the developers also added item switches and stage selection fool.

That's like saying the developers intended the game to be played only on Time mode, ignoring the fact that they also put stock mode in.

 

[SSB64-Jel]

Jel, have you or kefit even ever played online, or are you just going on people's word about keyboards di?

Yeah I use to play online a alot more then I do now. Kefit played online years ago but does not anymore. We play N64 alot more.

 

[cmu6eh]

No because the developers also added item switches and stage selection fool.

That's like saying the developers intended the game to be played only on Time mode, ignoring the fact that they also put stock mode in.

Well the developers of the N64 console didn't encrypt the messages between controller and N64, which allows anyone to build their own controller. Therefore they didn't intend on people only playing with N64 controllers .

 

[Olikus]

maybe we should send a mail to the developers, settle it once and for all.

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

really?? who gives a **** what the developers think! they aren't even worth taking into consideration when trying to make a fair competitive ruleset. just because they made it doesn't mean they know jack **** about it competitively. this reminds me of other games where people used to think that the developers were the best at the game just because they made it

 

[SheerMadness]

Doesn't matter what the developers think lol.

People are citing the devs because analog directional input appears to be the only form of input the game was designed for. The d-pad not being functional is fairly strong evidence towards that. But we can't be 100% sure of that. Maybe cmu is right and the devs envisioned a world where ssb64 still had a strong cult scene 14 years later thanks to online play, and thus players would inevitably try to create their own forms of input. Seems wildly unlikely though.

Anyway in a keyboards case, it's alternate form of directional input is clearly able to exploit the DI mechanic by achieving a much more rapid pace of directional input than analog sticks.

 

[M!nt]

What are you talking about sheer, cmu's post meant that if Nintendo didn't want you using anything other than the Nintendo official controllers, they could have done it that way. He's not saying that they envisioned keyboards lol. The dpad is not strong evidence for that, It would just be pointless to have two ways to move. Analog sticks were a new thing back then, why in the hell would they want to use the dpad?

 

[B Link]

Here are some KB v. Controller (Console) DI comparisons I did for fun:

1)
Keyboard DI: Falcon Uair DI HAX
Controller DI (console): Link U-smash DI HAX

2)
Keyboard DI: Killer HAX Edge DI
Controler DI (console): Boom HAX Edge DI

 

[Timotheus]

Here are some KB v. Controller (Console) DI comparisons I did for fun:

1)
Keyboard DI: Falcon Uair DI HAX
Controller DI (console): Link U-smash DI HAX

2)
Keyboard DI: Killer HAX Edge DI
Controler DI (console): Boom HAX Edge DI

no offense but am i the only person that think that isn't really hard to di like that? (expept the link usmash). i play with 64 controller too and pretty much everyone in europe can di like that online. just learn to di the right way -.-


EDIT: i will make a video of di in european matches in the next few days q|^.^|p

 

[B Link]

no offense but am i the only person that think that isn't really hard to di like that? (expept the link usmash). i play with 64 controller too

I wouldn't say it's easy (like "I can do that without trying"-easy).

Both vids in 1) are pretty hard to recreate to be honest. I guess the vids in 2) aren't that hard skill wise. But they do take a lot of energy.

pretty much everyone in europe can di like that online. just learn to di the right way -.-

Well, in online play you can dramatically increase your DI just by playing with range settings. So I'm not too impressed by the fact that "europe" can do this online. Maybe I'll be impressed if I see vids of them doing this consistently on console.

 

[Timotheus]

I just wanted say that people shouldn't play online when they complain about good di-players all the time :- D
just deal with it and learn to di the same good way, no matter what Input device you use...

EDIT: it will help you become a better player

 

[Olikus]

really?? who gives a **** what the developers think! they aren't even worth taking into consideration when trying to make a fair competitive ruleset. just because they made it doesn't mean they know jack **** about it competitively. this reminds me of other games where people used to think that the developers were the best at the game just because they made it

OMG take a joke without receiving a heartattack.

 

[rawrimamonster]

I'm actually beginning to question whether keyboard DI is due to rapid inputs or something else. Using Falcon's combos as an example, does Uair really have enough hitstun that you can achieve more than 2 DI inputs in the same direction even with the keyboard?

Also, to play devil's advocate, I don't think the Hori pad was an original intended device to be used for SSB. From what you guys have told me, those came out right at the end of the n64's lifespan.

If I remember right keyboards can di easier because of the repeat rate of keys along with the specific bandwidth of the keyboard and input confirmation timing (i.e. keyboard goes from 0-100% input instantly). This is why I said in a previous post that not all keyboards are the same and act quite differently, this is one small part of many why theres many diverse styles on keyboard just as much as controller. People are right in assuming that the key can be instant input the second it's pressed. But just like with a joystick you have to consider press to confirm times just like with joystick to move times. This also causes the issue of why we have to buffer tilts etc.

 

[M!nt]

no offense but am i the only person that think that isn't really hard to di like that? (expept the link usmash). i play with 64 controller too and pretty much everyone in europe can di like that online. just learn to di the right way -.-


EDIT: i will make a video of di in european matches in the next few days q|^.^|p

It's easy

OMG take a joke without receiving a heartattack.

Yeah! You tell him!

 

[cmu6eh]

Here are some KB v. Controller (Console) DI comparisons I did for fun:

1)
Keyboard DI: Falcon Uair DI HAX
Controller DI (console): Link U-smash DI HAX

2)
Keyboard DI: Killer HAX Edge DI
Controler DI (console): Boom HAX Edge DI

use &t not #t

 

[Timotheus]

Here it is :-D

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

OMG take a joke without receiving a heartattack.

wasn't aimed directly at you. there had been a lot of discussion about it prior to that and i'm pretty sure people were not joking. plus that post wasn't even that serious anyways >_______>

also nice DI vid ^^^. a lot of those were still followable though, i think. though when i play people that i know have DI like that i'll stay away from using easily DI'able moves like fox dair and falcon fair etc.

 

[Battlecow]

With the exception of Isai's awesome DI none of those links were hard B Link ma dude

 

[clubbadubba]

While we're talking about cool DI's, how about a DEATH BY DI:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Izjdx9QT2Eg#t=100s

 

[Nintendude]

Here are some KB v. Controller (Console) DI comparisons I did for fun:

1)
Keyboard DI: Falcon Uair DI HAX
Controller DI (console): Link U-smash DI HAX

2)
Keyboard DI: Killer HAX Edge DI
Controler DI (console): Boom HAX Edge DI

I get that kind of ledge DI all the time on console. I wouldn't really call that "HAX"