Keyboard legality in console tourneys (POLL)..

[SheerMadness]

With cmu claiming to have a keyboard adapter ready to go, and Nintedude stating that any type of alternate input device will be legal next Apex, what are your thoughts on the possibility of keyboards being legal in console tourneys?

Personally, I'm against it. They provide a clear advantage in DI over analog joystick users. But that's just my opinion, what's yours?

 

[cmu6eh]

Pikachu should be banned because it provides a clear advantage over any other character.

 

[M!nt]

Why do you make it where you can't see people's votes sheer! >:C

 

[SheerMadness]

In case some people wanna be anonymous and not be flamed for their opinion Mint.

 

[SpiderMad]

This feels so absurd to me, increase in DI ability? How and why could that ever make a keyboard better over the controller: the keyboard freaking sucks for smash 64 when I tried it.

 

[SheerMadness]

Spider have you ever played vs a high level keyboard player?

Yes, the keyboard does have a steeper learning curve IMO. But once you get beyond that it doesn't appear to have any huge downfalls that negatively effect play.

The top keyboard players can do anything controller players can do. Factoring in the incredible DI it allows for and I'd argue it's biggest pro is more influential than a controller's.

 

[SpiderMad]

No I never got it to work online, I would connect to Kiara and join my friend(s) game but my none of my inputs would go into the game (I was using my GC adapter that would work offline but not online). Which people use keyboard? I watched your shield breaking good play but hence I think you said you use a controller

 

[SheerMadness]

Some of the top keyboard players include Killer, Bane, and The Star King. All 3 of those players are as good as anyone not named Isai and Boom (possibly Jaime too).

 

[Han Solo]

Why don't they just test it out for a small tournament or two (not Apex)?

boom said that meowmeowrainbowkitty had the best DI he's ever seen (I'm guessing on console). Look at his placing at Sweet XII.

 

[Nintendude]

Testing it at a tournament requires keyboard adapters to exist haha

 

[SpiderMad]

I'll test that out, I think I also tried with just the keyboard and it didn't work (but maybe I still needed it unchecked for keyboard)

 

[The Star King]

Spider have you ever played vs a high level keyboard player?

Yes, the keyboard does have a steeper learning curve IMO. But once you get beyond that it doesn't appear to have any huge downfalls that negatively effect play.

The top keyboard players can do anything controller players can do. Factoring in the incredible DI it allows for and I'd argue it's biggest pro is more influential than a controller's.

The disadvantages of keyboard > some DI advantage if you ask me.

Think I'm probably gonna abstain from voting. Anyway we all already know that Yes is gonna win so dunno why this thread is here. Except for Sheer to use as ammunition I guess.

 

[SheerMadness]

Don't be salty SK. I already stated I was only frustrated with Nintendude's stance on how his opinion was the only one that mattered, not the possibility of keyboards being legal. It looks as though the community wants to see keyboards legal. And if the voting continues on this trend (and it probably will) I fully support it. The majority opinion > mine.

Entertaining times are ahead for the ssb64 community. There will be some legitimate questions that need to be answered though. Questions not criticisms, so hopefully no ones gets all defensive on me. Example:

- cmu, how many adapters are you planning on making? I think there obviously needs to be more than one in case 2 keyboard players are paired up.

- Will the adapter be compatible with any keyboard, so players can bring their own? Or will it only work with keyboards you provide?

- Nintendude if there's a limited amount of adapters will there be a limit on how many keyboard players can enter? Two adapters for like 20 players (unlikely scenario) probably wouldn't work too well.

Less pertinent, but entertaining questions to ask ourselves:

- Will reclusive keyboard players such as Killer and Bane now be enticed out of the shadows?

- Will Noob King be the best player in the Atlantic North now? I'm sure Sensei will have something to say about it, but I think SK might have the edge.

 

[cmu6eh]

- cmu, how many adapters are you planning on making? I think there obviously needs to be more than one in case 2 keyboard players are paired up.

- Will the adapter be compatible with any keyboard, so players can bring their own? Or will it only work with keyboards you provide?

There are 2 main parts: The N64 signal generator (Arduino) which hooks up to the console, and software on my laptop that works like an emulator input plugin.

Arduino communicates with my laptop software via LAN (needs ethernet connection) or via USB that plugs into the computer running the software.

So in order to make it all work you need
1) a laptop or computer,
2) something that can be used as a controller that can be connected via usb: Keyboard, Xbox controller, N64 controller via raphnet, usb DDR pad, etc.
3) my software for the laptop or computer
4) an arduino uno (costs about $30)
5) code to upload to the ardunio
6) a cut n64 controller wire
Optional: Ardino Ethernet sheild + ethernet wire, or arduino wifi shield


I plan on releasing the code so people can make their own changes/improvements. After I release the code, the best way to prevent cheating is for me to provide versions of (3) and (5) that are verified to have no macros, and secretly change the message protocol between them at every tournament I go to so people won't have the ability to use an altered version with macros. They can be uploaded at the site in a minute or 2 so it's not too much of a hassle.

The first tournament where we test this they will be using my laptop .

 

[Kimimaru]

Spider have you ever played vs a high level keyboard player?

Yes, the keyboard does have a steeper learning curve IMO. But once you get beyond that it doesn't appear to have any huge downfalls that negatively effect play.

The top keyboard players can do anything controller players can do. Factoring in the incredible DI it allows for and I'd argue it's biggest pro is more influential than a controller's.

Are you sure they can do falling U-airs without holding Up or using a jump ahead of time? When I used to play on the keyboard a long time ago I remember that that was a major setback it had. It was also ridiculously hard to do tilts, and walking whenever you wanted was pretty much impossible.

 

[Battlecow]

Killer talked to me about coming to a tourney sometime if there was a keyboard adapter

Sheer you should make the names public, that way we know there aren't 90 brawl noobs voting. Plenty of people who could vote in this do not need to have a say.

I voted for yes

 

[rawrimamonster]

Lol, I remember boom saying a while ago that keyboards are trash compared to controllers anyway, and as someone whose played on one since 2004 or 2005 I can safely say he's right. Controllers have a LARGE spacing AND execution advantage over keyboard. The only advantage to keys is instant run and DI, otherwise there's no john you can really possibly make...which is what complaining about playing on a device already at a disadvantage boils down to, johns. That said, and as I'm sure some butthurt individuals will point out, theres still player potential in keyboard so yea shaddap.

 

[mixa]

Battlecow i love your way with words

 

[clubbadubba]

I'll add a question to sheer's list:

-unlikely, but what happens if the laptop running the program malfunctions mid game? Should that be a stock from the adapter player?

 

[Nintendude]

To answer some questions:

1. The policy is still BYOC. This includes any equipment necessary to play the game, so if someone wants to use an adapter, it's on them to provide their own. If there are none available then the TO may force the player to use an available controller at their discretion.

2. Equipment malfunctions are also just up to the TOs discretion. YBOMBB's controller broke during his Apex set and he just had to deal with it and keep going (and he lost). If it's a really minor issue I don't think it's unreasonable to correct it mid-match in a non-disruptive way. Like if your stick wasn't centered properly, you could pause in between stocks and recalibrate it. People do this in Melee sometimes.

3. I'm still not sure why Sheer thinks I'm making a decision all by myself here. I was speaking for the Apex team as a whole, and we considered previous discussions in arriving at our decision.

 

[madrush21]

Sheer, You should just keep the vote private but check for yourself (if possible) who's voting and remove people who weren't at last apex or aren't active members in the 64 community. Then put that count in the OP.

Also Maybe start another poll would help:
If keyboards were legal at apex 2014 and adapters were available, would you opt play on kb? I feel like there would be very few people who actually would.

 

[SheerMadness]

Unfortunately I can't retroactively reveal votes. Nor can I even see them myself. Everyone's vote is anonymous. But 21-6 is a pretty overwhelming majority and SpiderMad appears to be the only potential uneducated voter (no offense dude lol) judging from who replied. So I'm not sure it's really worthwhile to make another poll.

cmu, that's radically different than I visualized. Thanks for describing it. For whatever reason I was visualizing some stand alone desktop keyboard somehow plugging in to a n64. Guess that wouldn't really make sense though. So it only works for laptop users? People who use gaming desktops keyboards are kinda out in the cold?

Nintendude the only members of the Apex team educated enough about ssb64 to make decisions like this are you and chain-ace. So 2 people are making huge tourney altering decisions for a whole community. And you didn't even mention chain-ace for a while there so it just seemed like you were doing what you wanted to do. Either way, 1 or 2 TO's making decisions like this for a whole community still rubs me the wrong way. I do feel somewhat better now that a majority of the community appears to agree with you.

 

[madrush21]

cmu's system works with any computer that you can plug your kb/controller into. So any keyboard you bring will probably work.

 

[SheerMadness]

They'd have to own and bring their own laptop either way right?

 

[madrush21]

yeah every adapter needs a laptop or pc to work in this version of the design

 

[SheerMadness]

And I agree with you madrush I'm not sure very many keyboard players would show anyway. Star King is really the only one that makes any attempt to be involved with the console smash scene. Unless I'm missing someone.

The other keyboard players have always avoided the console scene like the plague. Will be very interesting to see if this motivates any of them at all.

 

[kys]

Was gonna post my reasons but then realized I really don't care that much. I voted no

 

[madrush21]

Yeah so I guess don't get your hopes up for... CREW BATTLE: Best Keyboard Players VS Biggest Keyboard Haters

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I'm all for it but I don't want people starting hatefights and trying to call people out. If this was actually regulated and allowed in tourneys, I can already imagine some people trying to argue semantics like "He wuz on keyboard he is not legit player macro DI epic lulz ftw"

 

[banze]

I don't have a problem with the keyboard users ... as long it is only DI by pressing arrow button to fast, and not any other change on settings like automatic z-cancel or something like that.

 

[malva00]

ban them!

 

[cmu6eh]

ban them!

shut up noob

 

[clubbadubba]

I'm all for it but I don't want people starting hatefights and trying to call people out. If this was actually regulated and allowed in tourneys, I can already imagine some people trying to argue semantics like "He wuz on keyboard he is not legit player macro DI epic lulz ftw"

i mean, if i lose to a kb player i will definitely be saying that lol

Well, bright side of this is we get to see a couple of cool matchups, my personal favorite will be Sensei vs FULL POWER Star King

Also, I guess now the DC area will take on any regional crew that that doesn't include boom or isai in a 4 v 4. Gotta get A$ to come to Apex somehow.

 

[Battlecow]

full power SK is gonna wreck so much ****, especially once he gets away from the parental stranglehold

I kinda don't wanna see it

but on the other hand I'll finally get my ****in money

mixa not sure if serious but thanks?

Glad people are down with keyboards, but I'd also advise people to not get stuck in a rut of bias. Open minds, watch tourney results.

 

[Sangoku]

shut up noob

Exactly the reason why the votes are annonymous. I didn't want to vote (my opinion doesn't matter), but I wanted to see the results, so I chose third option.

 

[RockinRudy]

This is "MY" honest opinion. In a tournament setting a player should only use the standard N64 Controller. The controller that you were suppose to play the game with. No other external products should be used in my opinion.

Im not saying it's cheating or anything but in a serious tournament scene everyone should be at the same advantage and using the same equipment. The only way to do this is Nintendo Standard N64 controllers.

Now don't get smart and post Nintendo has a N64 Keyboard, Yes I know it was used for the 64DD though.

MY OPINION DON'T GET SALTY.

 

[cmu6eh]

Exactly the reason why the votes are annonymous. I didn't want to vote (my opinion doesn't matter), but I wanted to see the results, so I chose third option.

I was being facetious.

Im not saying it's cheating or anything but in a serious tournament scene everyone should be at the same advantage and using the same equipment. The only way to do this is Nintendo Standard N64 controllers.

Actually the only way to do this is to make everyone use the exact same controller. Like, have only 2 controllers provided by the tournament that each player must use, and they have to switch between sets. We should also split all the prize money equally amongst all players, since it is the most fair. We should also turn handicaps on while we are at it. Bowser Revolution!

 

[RockinRudy]

I was being facetious.



Actually the only way to do this is to make everyone use the exact same controller. Like, have only 2 controllers provided by the tournament that each player must use, and they have to switch between sets. We should also split all the prize money equally amongst all players, since it is the most fair. We should also turn handicaps on while we are at it. Bowser Revolution!

Honestly you shouldn't have to modify your N64 Controller in anyway. If a tournament offered 2 perfect fine controllers, with good sticks, there should be no reason to complain. I see your getting very emotional about this. Having to quote and put sarcasm into play. It was my opinion. Don't get into Salt mode.

 

[Sangoku]

I was being facetious.

I know, I was joking too.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

How the hell do you do Tilt attacks on a keyboard? Getting all of Fox's many Ftilt angles too?