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Kansas City/Lawrence Discussion Topic
- Thread starter Phatgamer1
- Start date
Phatgamer1
Smash Lord
I'm going to smash your aspirations into little tiny pieces. Then, I'm going to collect those pieces and throw them into a pot of boiling water and make HondaStew. Then, I'm going to eat said stew. Let's see how tasty it is Honda....
only1Z
Smash Champion
/Awaits insidiously in the back row, ever patient for his chance to strike hondafood down.
Phatgamer1
Smash Lord
I don't even know who those people are so it's irrelevant. Gonna eat you alive.lol they had me down as hondafood in teams apparently...
I was doing stuff to Amsah and Overtriforce, phatgamer is gonna be 2-EZ
I'mma poop
Jace08
Smash Lord
what phat there's no way you don't know who amsah is, I remember you mentioning him once
Phatgamer1
Smash Lord
I hate you Jace.
only1Z
Smash Champion
Poor boo boo, search for yourself or what?
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,313
I am in need of a clever title that has logo possibilities. The earliest i could get the venue was for May 7th. I'm making the thread now.
Hope you guys are on board still. Did we decide on who would be the Melee TO?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12236197#post12236197
Someone hook me up with the accepted Melee Ruleset.
And also post in the thread if you're coming and can provide housing.
Hope you guys are on board still. Did we decide on who would be the Melee TO?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12236197#post12236197
Someone hook me up with the accepted Melee Ruleset.
And also post in the thread if you're coming and can provide housing.
Jace08
Smash Lord
call it Event 52, unless anyone here has any objections? Also I believe amba's got this for hosting
for rules just go with pound 4 rules, here it is from the apex thread: http://cloti-aikou.net/apex/melee.html
only thing you should have to change from there is wobbling; make it illegal. inb4 peef comes back
for rules just go with pound 4 rules, here it is from the apex thread: http://cloti-aikou.net/apex/melee.html
only thing you should have to change from there is wobbling; make it illegal. inb4 peef comes back
Im back.
First: Banning wobbling is an excuse to avoid having to try against the IC's. With wobbling off the IC's are the 9th best character. With wobbling on they are the 9th best character. It is absolutely unreasonable to ban a technique that can be easily avoided, does not cause ICs to be unbeatable, and is not overcentralizing whatsoever. It is especially sad hearing that come from someone like you Jace who I see as a more reasonable and understanding smasher, and being biased against a bad characters ability seems uncharacteristic. An easily beatable technique that has been proven time and time again to not improve placement (ICs have not won a national tournament in 4-5 years, regardless of wobbling status) is not warranting of a ban.
Second: Why are you pushing this tournament on Amba? I honestly think you are just trying to get him to do all of your work. He has no more experience running tournaments than any of you do, in fact im positive most of you have more (Jace, Dmac). I think Amba would do fine, but I don't think it's cool how you are basically just saying "oh you got this Amba, go go do it" whenever he is such a busy person and isn't even asking to do it. You're basically trying to use his generosity but he isn't going to fall for your sh*t. If he doesn't want to do it then he won't.
PS: If he does host it he will make wobbling legal anyway, so joke would be on you.
Massive
Smash Champion
Wobbling is effectively the only infinite in melee, one that, if you don't f*ck up, is a guaranteed KO. Why should such a tactic be allowed when several stages are specifically banned to prevent certain other chars from doing infinites/guarantee's KOs?
You said yourself that it doesn't affect IC's tier placement, why even include it then? Why not play well on your own merit instead of hiding behind some janky trick that makes the game less pleasant to play and watch.
only1Z
Smash Champion
Amba is a big boy, if he says no then so be it.
You can't have it both ways. Either it is the only infinite, or other stages have been banned to prevent infinites of other characters. Pick one but don't try to argue both.
No stage has ever been banned to prevent guaranteed KOs. Corneria was banned not because of the fin alone but because of its ceiling+fin was overcentralizing for Fox.
This game is not based on being pleasant to watch. Kels shows us that.
Jigglypuff has a thousand rest combos that are guaranteed KOs and far far far easier to set up than the ICs getting a grab. You watch Wobbles vs PP from APEX when wobbling was on and tell me how many times he gets grabbed.
Finally, the argument "it doesn't affect placement so why include it" is the wrong way to think about it. We should also ban Fox's fair in that case.
Complaining about a non-overcentralizing technique that can be avoided because you are afraid that you'll get shieldgrabbed is not legitimate. The ICs are not a good character, and with wobbling on they still have 8-10 characters who have a favorable matchup against them. For the sake of balance, they should not be limited when they could be slightly more viable. The technique has been proven time and time again to not be imbalanced. If it is not imbalanced, it is not legitimate to ban it.
dmac
Smash Champion
peef has an awesome dog and awesome parents
one of my professors forgot a flash drive so i sent him an email recommending dropbox, lets see how that pans out...
one of my professors forgot a flash drive so i sent him an email recommending dropbox, lets see how that pans out...
Massive
Smash Champion
Note how I said 'effectively', there are stages whose geometry is conducive to infinites, mostly shines, that were banned. There are no other practical infinite combos in the game with our current stage list.
I was not talking about Corneria.
Flatzone, Yoshi's Island, and Venom, for example, were banned for ease with which gurantee'd KOs and infinites can be preformed upon them.
Fox can waveshine many characters off the sides of the screen in flatzone and yoshi's island from the middle of the stage with only a shine to open.
Venom has vertical walls that allowed fox to pin people and shine them with no consequences, the same can be said with minor exceptions for Onett, Fourside, and Peach's Castle. Notice the trend that any stage where you can walk off the edge to your death is banned, and so is any stage that has a stationary vertical wall.
Stages were removed in lieu of removing the tactic because the tactic only guarantees victory if used on those stages. IC's can wobble nearly anywhere, it is not a circumstance someone can avoid unless they are capable of avoiding every single grab attempt. Case in point, if waveshining were a guaranteed KO on every stage, you better believe it would be banned.
Additionally, The number of IC players is very low and the percentage of IC players that wobble is even lower. If there were as many IC players as Fox players, wobbling would have a significant effect on tournament placement.
Finally, I honestly don't care if wobbling is allowed, I'm simply explaining the reasoning behind its illegality in the first place.
The only person who is likely to wobble at Event 52 anyway is Peef.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
I also don't care if Wobbling is legal; I'll beat most IC's unless they're legitimately better than me regardless of Wobbling's legality. The IC player still has to grab me.
This honestly is the case. At HDR I almost lost to a mediocre Peach in pools because I was focused too much on getting grabs>wobbling. When I calmed down the next match and didn't focus on grabs at all I was able to take it handily, and I stopped wobbling the rest of the tournament and did quite well. Any IC focusing on grabs is probably the easiest fool to counter.
Ah, but it doesn't. Rulesets do not base themselves off of theoretical possibilities and thought experiments. The fact of the matter is that the ICs are probably the hardest character to learn, and that deters almost everyone from using them. If tournaments were 50% ICs then wobbling would probably be overcentralizing, but that isn't the case. Every idiot who thought they would "pull out their pocket ICs" and wobble their way to victory vs someone better than them has failed miserably. IC mains that have tried to wobble their way to victory have failed as well.
No reason. Wobbling (when limited to 200%) isn't overcentralizing, imbalanced, or uncounterable. This has been proven time and time again. "Because it is infinite" is an after-the-fact reflection on why we want to ban something that we don't want to happen to us. It is effectively not an infinite when you require it to end at 200. It is a large combo. You are now acting as if a "large combo", perhaps the largest guaranteed combo in the game, makes it ban-worthy. However, if wobbling is banned, something else is the largest guaranteed combo in the game. "Because something is a large, guaranteed combo" is no reason to ban it. Overcentralizing, imbalanced, uncounterable. Those are reasonable criteria for a ban. If you base banworthiness on being "easy when you get a grab" or "annoying" then you have no rational REASON to only ban wobbling, because there are plenty of other large combos that are easy when you get a grab and are very annoying. Overcentralizing, imbalanced, uncounterable. Find these and you will have a reason for it's illegality.
*GASP*
Dramatic.
I will also probably be the only competent Ice Climber main there.
Stealth Raptor
Smash Legend
regardless of whether or not you limit it to two hundred percent it is still a guaranteed kill combo
Are we banning guaranteed kill combos or...? If so I have quite a few in mind.
People misunderstand why things in fighting games are banned. It isn't because it is good or it kills people. It is based on overcentralization and imbalance.
resTy
Smash Champion
This argument could have been avoided with a simple, "Wobbling is banned. umad?"
Not really though.
Not really though.
Massive
Smash Champion
If Lixi still plays/shows, there will be 2.
I would've just dropped a nice meme-image, but I was feeling like a devil's advocate troll today.restTy said:
darkatma
Smash Hero
Lixi is a good ICs lol
he can't travel to anything that takes more than a day because of med school though.
but there will be matches up from mizzou of him lolz
also he doesn't believe in wobbling.
he can't travel to anything that takes more than a day because of med school though.
but there will be matches up from mizzou of him lolz
also he doesn't believe in wobbling.
Massive
Smash Champion
If he's in med school, shouldn't he be playing Dr. Mario?
This is wobbling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie--h96-TJY
This is brawlbbling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSkCGa_J5wY
Despite the obvious visible differences, there's not a huge difference in the function of the move other than ICs in melee being substantially faster and thereby better at grabbing than in brawl.
Jace08
Smash Lord
first of all peef taking advantage of each other is not how our crew works. Think before you make assumptions
as for wobbling, it's clear we just disagree here peef. I guess if you wanted to we could always put it to a vote in the thread, but yeah...
isn't anyone interested in the omaha tourney this weekend besides me and honda?
iamthemicrowave
Smash Master
peef is good at posting alot of words
That isn't something that goes up for a vote, its more like a right.
If you put everything up to a vote, everyone is going to vote in their own best interest. For example, I would vote to ban peach, ban rest, whatever if it was up for a vote and I wasn't disciplined by my own conscience.
Hondafoo you are a nut if you really think getting a grab with synced ICs is LOW RISK. Are you kidding me? As a peach, you really don't know this? It is probably the highest risk thing that we can do. I try to shieldgrab or grab, it doesn't work, your dsmash punishes, splits my ICs, puts them in the air and gives them 40 damage. If it was low risk, high reward it would be really easy for us to win, right? right? We would be winning??
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,313
I mean, I know what they are. I play ICs in Brawl. And I've seen Wobbling in melee. It just seems like based on the nature of the metagame, it's easier for Brawl IC's to get a grab than it is in melee in terms of risk/reward trade. (Ie everyone plays out of shield in brawl because every move on shield gives frame advantage to the shielder, but shield is beaten by grab. Harder for regular combos to punish you do death in brawl because there usually aren't very many true combos unlike in melee)
Yet the IC CG isn't banned and rarely does anyone ever bring up that it should be.
But apparently there's a difference in opinion in melee. Which I find weird because people in melee complain about a scrub mentality in Brawl and how melee is so competitive in mindset.
Either way, just let me know what you guys want for the ruleset. Or even better, let me know who the Melee TO is going to be so I dont' have to worry about it haha
Yeah, that is the inconsistency. On one hand Melee players complain about how you have ledgegrab limits and have a million rules about all kinds of stuff, but then they are completely hypocritical on wobbling, and it is the communities biggest mistake.
And yes, it is much much easier and much much safer to get a grab with the ICs in Brawl. For the "advantage to the defender" that you mentioned as well as the fact that punishment in brawl is limited to a hit or two, whereas in Melee the sky is the limit, most characters can combo or punish the ICs in some devastating fashion. Also, the nature of Desyncs in Brawl gives them much more consistent and powerful approaches. Double SH desynced blizzards is super hard to deal with and can catch people offguard in their shield much easier than any Melee equivalent. Not to mention Nana is much smarter in Brawl than Melee, so being separated isn't usually a minute-long ordeal like it is in Melee.
Brawl chaingrabs are more complicated than wobbling, but that simply doesn't matter. Just as many people have mastered them as have mastered wobbling (it is much harder than you probably think). And the technique is not overcentralizing and has not led an IC player to a national tournament win in 4-5 years.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
I AM THE MELEE TO
and I ban Wobbling if and only if Falco's laser is banned
spacie mains with your shines complaining about Ice Climber grab combos, ALL I HAVE IS A ****ING FOOT
and I ban Wobbling if and only if Falco's laser is banned
spacie mains with your shines complaining about Ice Climber grab combos, ALL I HAVE IS A ****ING FOOT
Peef the problem with your argument is that you act as if the ICs are completely hopeless without wobbling. They are not. You miss a grab and a hard punish isn't even guaranteed. Grabs only have so much cooldown and then you can move and attack again. You could miss a grab 20 times in a game or more and not lose a stock from it. I don't know of any grab that's even a medium risk other than grapplers like Link and Samus. IC's grab is definitely low risk.
Compare that to Jigglypuff's rest where, if you miss, depending on who you're playing will cost a stock (Fox...laserlaserlaserlaser upsmash), and at the very least will lead to some big damage. So the trade-off for such a powerful move is relatively fair.
But missing a grab with IC's =/= losing a stock, not even close. And don't even act like wobbling is immensely hard to do from a technical standpoint.
Also I don't like your style of arguing that consists of insulting everyone's intelligence, we've likely been playing this game longer than you have.
And Amba volunteered to TO, it's not like we're pushing it on him against his will. If anything, we're taking the experience away from Jace, who could use use it
Compare that to Jigglypuff's rest where, if you miss, depending on who you're playing will cost a stock (Fox...laserlaserlaserlaser upsmash), and at the very least will lead to some big damage. So the trade-off for such a powerful move is relatively fair.
But missing a grab with IC's =/= losing a stock, not even close. And don't even act like wobbling is immensely hard to do from a technical standpoint.
Also I don't like your style of arguing that consists of insulting everyone's intelligence, we've likely been playing this game longer than you have.
And Amba volunteered to TO, it's not like we're pushing it on him against his will. If anything, we're taking the experience away from Jace, who could use use it
Massive
Smash Champion
Jturley46
Smash Journeyman
How do you mean that SB? I am going to massive smash this weekend if there is one.
Massive
Smash Champion
I feel like this week at massivesmash, we should do a round robin style tournament for singles.
That way nobody will PREVENT DUDES FROM WATCHING HOW TO TRAIN YOUR DRAGON, or whatever other awesome thing we decide to do.
That way nobody will PREVENT DUDES FROM WATCHING HOW TO TRAIN YOUR DRAGON, or whatever other awesome thing we decide to do.
My style of arguing involves insulting your reasoning, not your intelligence. The reasoning is bad. Very very bad. People who are intelligent in other fields can still have poor reasoning.
I don't know if this is even worth a serious response.
That is not at all what I have said. They are not that good with or without wobbling, wobbling helps them be slightly more viable. My argument also does not include as a premise that they are hopeless so that can't be a problem with it.
Argument laid out:
1: It is only legitimate to ban a fighting game technique if and only if it is overcentralizing, imbalanced or uncounterable.
2: Wobbling has not proven to be overcentralizing, imbalanced or uncounterable.
Therefore: It is not legitimate to ban wobbling. (Modus Tollens)
In order to talk about this issue you will need to contest one of my premises or reject the logical flow of the argument.