Kansas City Area Brawl Thread

[quote]

Slightly depressing, probably better that way since I would probably just john up a storm as I routinely do these days.

In other news, I got to see Wynton Marsalis today/yesterday. I'm pretty damned happy for once in my life.

 

[Rizk18]

MAN this state is free.

 

[Mr. Doom]

Rockstar's D3 would 3 stock your D3 without the infinite

Hype much?

Well, I better step up my game...oh, that's right. I don't play that game anymore, so I suppose it wouldn't matter in the long run anyway.

 

[DeLux]

Last time I checked, the return of Rockstar was the reason Wichita quit.

He told me himself.

 

[Rizk18]

I want to have sex with Mr Doom's








SDI

 

[Mr. Doom]

Last time I checked, the return of Rockstar was the reason Wichita quit.

He told me himself.

He's sorely deluded. Come up with a better way of hyping him up. And btw, that way to chaingrab MK wasn't first discovered by him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJiOgXMBaCg&t=2m56s
Don't get me wrong; I'm not crediting myself as discovering how to cg MK.

 

[DeLux]

Mr. Doom showing there's a little Rockstar in all of us

 

[MegaRobMan]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=311683

Nebraska Charity Tournament!

 

[MegaRobMan]

A local with non-noob rules and fun stage list!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=311702

 

[Rockstar]

Woah woah woah hold up. I wasnt even at this smashfest. I was at work. And i've never played D3 a day in my life. I haven't seen anybody in our smash scene (northern or southern kansas) since Battle To End World Hunger in May. Sorry

 

[MegaRobMan]

Damnit rockstar, you got my hopes up

 

[Rockstar]

Oh lol sorry bro

 

[Mr. Doom]

I knew it was a farce. All along.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

dangit whyyyyy we had you so hyped up rockstar =[

mk is officially banned. because of this ill most likely be retiring after apex. i have no want to support a bad game with an even ****tier unity ruleset that was made by a corrupted group

 

[quote]

****. Got trolled.

 

[MegaRobMan]

dangit whyyyyy we had you so hyped up rockstar =[

mk is officially banned. because of this ill most likely be retiring after apex. i have no want to support a bad game with an even ****tier unity ruleset that was made by a corrupted group

If I was a serious contender for the game, I would sig this. No offense Lux, but if they don't un-ban infinites, the game is stupid and rules are bad (stages). MK is how people get around infinites. No troll. I'm too lazy to actual learn MK, especially since I've suspected he was going to be banned sooner than later, but he's a great counter to D3, who can destroy Wolf. I already secondary marth(CG), Link (CG) and Luigi (infinite), how many characters do I need to learn to play competitively? Do I need to just play D3 and grab him a billion times? No, I'll play Meta Knight and win with moves.

If they get rid of infinites, I could just play luigi and beat everyone, would expand the matchup. I play Luigi, they CP D3, I lose to bull****. If some Wario actually learns the CG (which will happen now that MK is banned), should I learn Yoshi so I can infinite them back? Gay. I'm not saying that Wario's CG should be banned (good end line).

 

[Rockstar]

^ 2nd that. Plus D3 annihilates most characters offstage. Bigger hitboxes, along with perhaps the best recovery in the game (besides MK).

Also, am I the only one wondering what M2K will do?

 

[Mr. Doom]

mk is officially banned. because of this ill most likely be retiring after apex. i have no want to support a bad game with an even ****tier unity ruleset that was made by a corrupted group

Turn to the darkside. Go to Mario Party and rage with Wichita. Do it.

Edit: @Rockstar: People suspect that M 2 K will switch to D3 or drop brawl altogether. He still plays Melee, so I don't think he's complaining too much. (probably is about MK being banned.)

 

[DeLux]

Today I learned D3 is unbeatable for the same reasons MK is, only he can infinite the cast.

I guess the URC made a huge mistake and banned the wrong character, despite the fact he has multiple hard counters.

 

[THuGz]

So everyone in the URC is really dumb. I like how there are like 3 or 4 respectable players in it. I also like how they don't understand how majority opinions work. GG community <3 have a good life

 

[Stealth Raptor]

doom: why would i go from a bad party game to a worse party game? makes no sense. ill switch to AMAZING single player games like xenoblade

but tonight is not a night for for hating. tonight is a night to sit back, and enjoy watching nebraska getting their *** whooped. WELCOME TO THE BIG TEN

 

[MegaRobMan]

Today I learned D3 is unbeatable for the same reasons MK is, only he can infinite the cast.

I guess the URC made a huge mistake and banned the wrong character, despite the fact he has multiple hard counters.

lol, I don't think they should ban D3, I think they should just ban infinites. This wouldn't have any effect on your Ice Climbers, that's not a standing infinite.

The argument is that MK being banned will expand the roster and not be overly centralizing. The same would happen with the removal of infinite grabs.

I'm not going to learn Pika or Falco just to beat 1 character when I could just play as Luigi, a mid-tier powerhouse. Or get better with Marth/Wolf. Characters are supposed to have hard counters, and non-top tier characters are supposed to have multiple bad matchups. Changing one thing would allow them to be involved in shaping the future of the metagame.

but tonight is not a night for for hating. tonight is a night to sit back, and enjoy watching nebraska getting their *** whooped. WELCOME TO THE BIG TEN

I already told you we would lose to Wisconson this year, but there could be a rematch...

 

[DeLux]

One of the major reasons for banning MK was that in order for him to be viably playable, we'd have to cater our ruleset for him.

Essentially you are telling me that in order for Luigi to be viable, we ought to cater our ruleset to him.


I don't agree with catering our ruleset in the name of the viability of a specific character.


And my post was more directed at rockstar's description of D3 and his "2nd best recovery in the game".

 

[MegaRobMan]

Fine, cater the rules set for Mario then. Sheesh, people will do anything for MARIO, but when Luigi wants stuff, it's a bunch of NO's.

 

[DeLux]

Mario's ohko is banned from play :\

IDK what more you want

 

[MegaRobMan]

hahahahahahaha, that's too good.......can you come up with better logic for me as to why infinites are legal? Catering to the high tiers and refusing to change the rules to help the little guys isn't always the way. I think if you guys do that, Luigi/DK/Mario would all not have the same 80/20 matchup anymore and would be more used and Lucas would benefit insanely too (his metagame is just being developed IMO). What's more annoying that going into a tournament as DK and getting grabbed 3 times and dying, and then having to try and patch your wounds, you are forced to a character you have no business playing competitively.

I've already been picking up Marth, and I feel for some matchups (especially the ditto) it's better than my Wolf, so I'm on board the Marth Train.

I just want a free win vs D3...if I put it like that, would it help the BBRtrolls get more into it?

Also, what about the ledge grab limit rule? And the fact that I can't sign my friends up to this website from where we play games at.................that's pretty incontinent for building a scene :/

 

[DeLux]

What do you mean by better logic?

The ruleset isn't catering to anyone by saying "infinites are legal". If I removed that rules and didn't comment on the legality of the infinites, they would still exist within the context of the game. Therefore, the game is catering naturally to certain characters being hard countered if they get infinited. That means that the character has flaws. It's not a rule generated flaw however, it's a game generated flaw. It's not like we started out with 0 legal tactics and then said "Ok, you may now use Jab. You may now use jab to grab. You may now use jab to grab to throw to grab." We aren't adding anything in by saying it's legal, so we aren't doing any catering.

If you character has flaws, I suggest you either pick a new character to avoid those flaws or work around them to mask those flaws.

This means not playing one of the few characters infinited during situations where you don't know what character you opponent is selecting (ie game 1 and their CP)

What about the LGL?

 

[Mr. Doom]

I used Smellingsalt and noticed that the sodium chloride levels are high here.

 

[THuGz]

I haven't read any of what you guys read but from the 2 words i did read, i gather that you're arguing about "catering" the ruleset to MK. This is not true and is faulty logic. Taking away brinstar and rainbow caters the ruleset towards general balance. Floaties and in general people who are more mobile and recover well will be at a significant advantage against characters who are more limited in mobility, on rainbow cruise. This is a very general problem that skews the balance of the game, in many common matchups, say wario vs falco for example. The same thing applies to brinstar, with other properties. MK does not break those stages, they are broken regardless. Also, taking them out would leave the ruleset pretty balanced in terms of being able to beat MK, and still balance the game more in other ways. This ruleset is a joke.

 

[DeLux]

If you labeled out the Unity Ruleset stages by number notation -6 to +6 the balance of the game can be defined at 0.

By in large, you are advocating that we remove 2 of the stages, +6 and +5 from the legal stage list, meaning you can then outline the stages -6 to +4.

Believe it or not, every stage has an effect on a matchup Some are obviously more polarizing than others.

The ruleset already features a stage where you're going to play against MK in the -2 to -5 range on his first stage. At which point he plays on a +5 on his CP. At which point you again play -2 on your counter pick.

Removing stages from his counter pick pool doesn't change the fact that he's still winning despite the ruleset obviously catering towards his non-success in terms of stage selection by number notation. At which point, you're just advocating a system that really hurts other characters as well for the sake of balancing out for MK.

 

[THuGz]

^ That is the most arbitrary number system that means nothing I've ever read.

 

[DeLux]

Why? it's the most objective way to look at stages outside of the context of character matchups.

Just because it doesn't fit your view doesn't mean it's arbitrary. It means your view is subjective and overwhelmingly so.

 

[MegaRobMan]

I still don't see how the BBTroll committee can ban a character and allow infinite's. I don't main a character that gets infinited (other than a D3 ledge infinite), so I'm not incredibly biased on the subject matter. It would be cool to see DK/Luigi/Mario/Lucas in tournament, ya know?

As far as the number system, I don't really follow it either, but I don't care about banning MK tbh, if it makes the scene stronger, good. Follow in suit and get rid of your Top-Tier character advantage b.s.

 

[DeLux]

The number notation system is used to objectively factor in player preference of a stage

In a competitive striking system, players will strike the stages they dislike the most while their opponent strikes stages they dislike the most. Once they are done simultaneously striking, you should be left with the middle stage. Since there are 13 stages, the strking order would go like from your perspective:

Player: -6
Opponent : +6
Player: -5
Opponent: +5
Player: -4
Oppnent: +4
Player: -3
Oppenent: +3
Player: -2
Oppenent: +2
Player: -1
Oppenent: +1

Leaving them with only stage 0, aka the stage they didn't disagree to, aka the neutral one.

In terms of MK as a character, his advantageous stages aka his +6 and 5 aren't in the starter list. As a matter of fact, for most matchups, his +1 and 2 and 3 and 4 are also not in the starter list in terms of stages you.

So the striking looks like if you're MK in our current 2-3-1 system:

MK Player: -6
Mk Player: -5
Opponent: 0
Opponent: -1
Opponent: -2

MK Player now chooses between -4 and -3.

The system is designed to objectively factor stage preference prior to the construct of matchups between characters.

Typically the system is used to see if a counterpick system in question is synchronized to be competitively neutral in regard to the current stage list used. As you can see, our current system is not synchronized.


Don't get me wrong, I would love to see RC/Brinnie banned. But if you have claims of competitive neutrality and stage diversity as values, then you can say the following:

We can either make a decision to support neutrality by removing stage diversity

OR

We can make a decision to support neutrality WHILE maintaing stage diversity

The first one would remove rc/brinstar
The second one would remove the arbitrary distinction of starters vs. counter picks stage and would feature full list stage striking.

One removes elements of the game that outside of the scope of metaknight aren't competitively degenerating. The other removes no elements of the game and simply correct arbitrary distinctions on our parts.

I'd defend this in person as well, but I'm done debating it here since this is about KC and not about subjectively deciding on rules.

 

[THuGz]

I don't think you understand what the word objective means. RC and Brinstar are a much much bigger advantage for mk against most chars than those chars would have to counter him with. +6 and -6 can't just be considered equal. That isn't objective.

Also, for stage striking yeah sure, this makes sense, but in counterpicking, when you can only strike what you suspect is their best option, or if you make a mistake and ban incorrectly, you can pick an overwhelmingly good stage for you. It doesn't matter that the other person has as many in the pool that are in their favor, it just matters that the person who counterpicks can basically get an autowin on ridiculous stages.

 

[DeLux]

I don't think you understand what the word objective means. RC and Brinstar are a much much bigger advantage for mk against most chars than those chars would have to counter him with. +6 and -6 can't just be considered equal. That isn't objective.

You just proved my point. MK is the broken aspect of the stages, not the stages themselves. If the same held true for other characters, then you could safely say the stage is broken. If Wario could CP RC and Brinstar and have it be insanely broken and unwinnable I'd listen to you the stages need to be removed. He can't. He is definitely beatable on those stages.

And even if MK were to be the best on a current stage, if there were any sort of means of counter picking him on a character vs character level, it would help augment that fact. There isn't. No matter what the stage you're playing on is. In 99% of cases, if you can't beat MK on the starters (his worst stages as proved by the numeric notation), you aren't going to beat him on the counter picks. This doesn't mean the stages are bad, it just reflects the character is good regardless of stage presence.

Also, for stage striking yeah sure, this makes sense, but in counterpicking, when you can only strike what you suspect is their best option, or if you make a mistake and ban incorrectly, you can pick an overwhelmingly good stage for you. It doesn't matter that the other person has as many in the pool that are in their favor, it just matters that the person who counterpicks can basically get an autowin on ridiculous stages.

In the competitive process, you will always get a chance to also counter pick your opponent. At which point, everything you said "doesn't matter" ultimately does. That's what makes the latter parts of the counter pick system "neutrally synchronized". However the beginning admittedly is not. However, this skew is working against aerial based characters, not for them.

 

[THuGz]

I didn't read your post cuz most of it didn't make sense, but I want to clarify that when I said MK has a much bigger advantage on those stages than the character counterpicking them would, I wasn't saying MK was the problem. Like i said before, the reason that these stages are the problem and not MK is because so many characters get that much of a ridiculous advantage here. It's a stage based on moving around, and obviously mobile characters capitalize on that, hard. It's a stage broken with an entire category of matchups and characters.

 

[DeLux]

Just because you can't comprehend the system doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. It removes subjectivity and the element of stages and factors in how players would strike/pick stages based on order of preference (not strength in a matchup). If you want me to explain to you in person so you are more familiar with it's uses, you have that offer.

To your points:

To be Broken is to not have any counter against a tactic.

Can you counter MK on RC/ Brinstar? No

Can you counter Wario on RC/Brinstar? Yes, assuming you pick a character matchup that is advantageous to you.

To your point on MK not being broken on RC:

Can you counter G&W on RC/Brinstar? Yes, assuming you pick a character matchup that is advantageous to you.

The counter pick system exists as Stage > Winner Picks > Loser Picks

They pick RC.
You as the winner counter the RC by picking Wario/G&W.
You as the loser counter the Wario/GW pick by picking either Wario or a character that had an adv against Wario. I would be very comfortable countering Wario with King DDD or Marth there. I wouldn't counter pick it obviously, but I would at least have a significant character adv. For G&W, he loses to a substantial amount of characters.

And you just evened out their strongest CP to a not "unwinnable" level.


How do you do that with MK? here's a hint: you don't

 

[Mr. Doom]

 

[MegaRobMan]

The fact remains, D3 can still chain grab all of the characters that he can infinite, other than Luigi, though I have heard that with PERFECT work and maybe bad DI, Luigi is possible to CG even still (from RPSI when I met him at Animazement). So you wouldn't be catering the rules set against D3 or Marth and it wouldn't make them any less viable by giving potentially one character a possible even matchup with the potential 3rd best character based on the new metagame.

You notice how I didn't mention Bowser and Ness? It's because I view them as unviable characters and it doesn't matter if you change the rules or not to help them, though stages may make Ness better.

A stage list like:

Delfino, Yoshi's, Brinstar, Halberd (insert stage with platforms Ness can spike people through) would make him viable. Seriously, you can up-B people on those stages so they go BELOW the stage instead of below it and spike them if you guess how they use their double jump. Setting this up is kinda easy since ness's forward throw and F-tilt (and situationally bair) usually put people in that area, and most characters won't AD the Ball.

So, a new stage list would make Ness viable...doesn't mean it should happen. (I want him to go into Low Tiers so I can just say "**** brawl" and only play in low tier tournaments as Ness and Link.