Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

[dude it's raining]

Not sure. Magus has written up a lot of Ganon stuff so he might have that kind of detail specified.

I imagine that it ultimately comes down to the dash/run speed and traction of a character. Marth has pretty high run speed and low traction so time spent in jump squat can create some meaningful distance. Ganon is on the lower end in both regards so its hard to say how much of an impact there is.

I feel like it's significant with Falcon too

 

[tm]

is this true for all characters?

i remember for Ganons CGs you needed to do perfect JC grabs, although perhaps that meant the latest frame in jumpsquat, not the earliest as i had assumed

No, it is earliest, but in those situations it's because the characters are escaping the CG by either hitting the ground or double jumping above the grab (generally)

edit: even in the situations where they escape horizontally, ganon's dash speed is probably slower than their horizontal tumble speed, so it wouldn't matter

 

[Kadano]

Does KJ64's lack of a wall affect anything? I'd guess that it wouldn't.

It’s 13 frames on KJ64 as well.

Finally, what frames can shiek grab the ledge after her upb's "poof"? I was wondering how to time the neutral getup from ledge to combat shiek's recovery. I've been punishing it pretty sub-optimally for some time now.

Immediately. You want to do the quick getup if you are below 100% damage, or a ledgedash if you are above 100%.

Hey kadano, at kill %, should marth sdi up against fox's uair if he misses uthrow DI or is sdi'ing behind fox usually the best choice?

It totally depends on Fox’ spacing / movement. I explained that some time ago, but I forgot where. I’ll link you the post if I find it.

is this true for all characters?

i remember for Ganons CGs you needed to do perfect JC grabs, although perhaps that meant the latest frame in jumpsquat, not the earliest as i had assumed

Every character decelerates during kneebend, so you want to spend only one frame in it. For example, if you spend two in it, you could have used one for Dash / Run instead, which would have increased your total distance.

 

[hectohertz]

It’s 13 frames on KJ64 as well.


Immediately. You want to do the quick getup if you are below 100% damage, or a ledgedash if you are above 100%.


It totally depends on Fox’ spacing / movement. I explained that some time ago, but I forgot where. I’ll link you the post if I find it.


Every character decelerates during kneebend, so you want to spend only one frame in it. For example, if you spend two in it, you could have used one for Dash / Run instead, which would have increased your total distance.

thats what i thought. thanks kadano

 

[dude it's raining]

When you change the angle on Dolphin slash away from vertical, does it detract from the vertical height you go?
And also, when you ride up the ledge, it is similar to Fox/Falco UpB in that it eats up your momentum and shortens the distance, right?

 

[Bones0]

When you change the angle on Dolphin slash away from vertical, does it detract from the vertical height you go?
And also, when you ride up the ledge, it is similar to Fox/Falco UpB in that it eats up your momentum and shortens the distance, right?

Yes, it detracts from your height. You can test this by up-Bing under BF's top plat.

You don't lose height from wall riding.

 

[dude it's raining]

This seemed like the place to ask this, but I was afraid of necroposting.
Anyway, I remember I think m2k said once in a vid how fox can do lots of invincible stuff from the ledge on the platform on YS, and I was wondering if there was frame data about that.
EDIT: I'm pretty this was using his ledgejump, rather than his ledgehop.

 

[1MachGO]

Hey Kadano, out of curiosity, what Marth related projects do you currently have in the works? If I remember correctly, you said you were working on an optimal fox/falco uthrow follow up chart?

 

[dude it's raining]

lloD goes to my school (and wins all our tourneys, sometimes with his M2), and he's picking up puff (to be the only puff @ our school). I'm studying your puff followups in this guide, but I was wondering if you have percent thresholds/DI info for sideB -> tilt (or grab?) followups.

 

[T0RN]

about what % is a good time for a ken combo, that is if i have the set up, for spacies, marth, or captain falcon? And when I fair should it be tipper?

 

[dude it's raining]

about what % is a good time for a ken combo, that is if i have the set up, for spacies, marth, or captain falcon? And when I fair should it be tipper?

I heard M2K say in his match analysis something like if...

actually, let me go look it up, then I'll edit this comment.

EDIT: @ 34:50 here. He says if it's sour spot, do Fair -> Fair or Fair -> Shield Breaker. If you tipper Fair the 1st one, the opponent will likely DI in (to save themselves, especially falcon coz recovery lulz) and you can get a Dair.

 

[tonic]

Hi Kadano, I'm not sure if I understand this (http://youtu.be/ZkdPVUlrSOo?t=15m27s ) correctly. I thought in order to input multiple SDI inputs, each one had to either be 90 degrees away from the last input, or the stick must be reset to neutral. But it seems that the video suggests you only need to go past 17 degrees in either direction from the cardinal angles? If so, it seems making multiple SDI inputs is actually relatively easy and quick, and can be done consistently with some practice. (How far/hard do you need to push the stick to get an SDI input? do you move further if you push the stick further in one angle (with a longer radius?)).

I also question what you say here: http://youtu.be/ZkdPVUlrSOo?t=16m34s ). Why not always try to sweetspot, but also input the necessary actions for wallteching as well? Is it not feasible to always input the ledgetech motions every time you upB, regardless of whether you actually manage to sweetspot or not? That is, why not cover both options?

Amazing video, by the way. Thanks so much for what you've done to advance Melee's metagame.

 

[T0RN]

How can I deal with falco lasers and how can i approach... other than using platforms/wd oos

 

[SpiderMad]

@ Kadano can no specials be used during IASA frames? Do you wish Melee allowed specials during IASA? He'd be able to do better SH Fair Side-bs and SH Bair side-b I think, like I think he can in PM.

If doing a frame perfect aerial didn't lower Marth's SH by 2 frames, would certain SH Bair to Aerials work? According to frame data he'd still be behind a frame; but I think initiating things like Fair would raise his collision a frame maybe? Do you like that mechanic? Does it have any uses? I just see it screw up things like your FH UAir reaching top platforms and stuff, and it kills things like SH Bair Fair from existing possibly.

Do you think Melee checked for Button release to determine SH or FH a frame earlier than it could have on purpose? So people could possibly go from the button to A or wherever faster when doing a FH?

And what does this mean? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8tE8tDkPlE

 

[woodsta]

Let's go PPU!

Edit: PPU 2-1 hbox utilizing that throw mixup and some EXTREMELY crispy spacing and patience. Vindicating to watch

 

[1MachGO]

Glad to see Marth > Puff finally realized. PP also said Marth > Puff in his interview with Toph so hopefully that means commentators will stop saying its a bad MU.

 

[Purpletuce]

Kadano, can you find out the number of pixels the top/side blast zones are from center stage on PS? I already checked StrongBad's excel sheet, and only the neutrals were shown.

 

[Bones0]

And what does this mean? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8tE8tDkPlE

It means this.

 

[Deleted member]

PPU killing hbox with dthrow > dash pivot tipper

chat has 600 people typing KADANO

get ****ed up @ jigglypuff

 

[SpiderMad]

It means this.

Yeah but what does it mean

And the Dreamland one is also in Smash 64; is it reference to some Kirby universe Icon?

 

[Signia]

Wooo it's about time Kadano's tech trickled up to top level play.

How can I deal with falco lasers and how can i approach... other than using platforms/wd oos

There's a graphic showing all possible laser heights and that Marth can crouch under a lot of them. You can also dash attack under them or get easy powershields as long as they aren't low lasers.

There aren't a whole lot of great answers to low lasers that I'm aware of, though. Low lasers take longer to come out, so they might be more susceptible to interruption? They're lower, so you can SH over them, but is that a good idea, since the laser animation also cancels sooner after the laser comes out?

 

[Bones0]

Yeah but what does it mean

And the Dreamland one is also in Smash 64; is it reference to some Kirby universe Icon?

It's a joke about Illuminati conspiracists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Providence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy_theory)#Illuminati

 

[SpiderMad]

It's a joke about Illuminati conspiracists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Providence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy_theory)#Illuminati

Yeah but why does it look apparent they put some kind of pyramid into shield stun and dream land? Is the Shieldstun design an actual texture image? Is it a true joke from them that they did this to confuse people later on starting with 64?

Another thing I wish I could perpetuate is many of Melee's formulas involving Fibonacci numbers or something

 

[Bones0]

Yeah but why does it look apparent they put some kind of pyramid into shield stun and dream land? Is the Shieldstun design an actual texture image? Is it a true joke from them that they did this to confuse people later on starting with 64?

Another thing I wish I could perpetuate is many of Melee's formulas involving Fibonacci numbers or something

It's just a symmetrical design combined with the human tendency to seek out patterns even in instances where there are none.

 

[Nicholas1024]

How feasible would Z-powershield into grab/dtilt/dsmash/fsmash be against an approaching Fox nair or Falco dair? I'd think that it would beat the standard shine followup just because of the increased shield pushback, but would it be possible for the spacies to continue pressure by just using nair again or a dash into shine instead?

 

[dude it's raining]

How feasible would Z-powershield into grab/dtilt/dsmash/fsmash be against an approaching Fox nair or Falco dair? I'd think that it would beat the standard shine followup just because of the increased shield pushback, but would it be possible for the spacies to continue pressure by just using nair again or a dash into shine instead?

Happy thousand'th post! And I think the fact that Z-PS has as much shieldstun as lightshielding, it's not as ideal for PS'ing attacks, but I dunno 'bout the 2nd followup. It seems like the pushback is either good enough, or make it really hard for the spacie to followup.

 

[Espi]

How does Up throw to Up tilt work in the Marth ditto? Guaranteed? Certain percents only?

 

[DJ _ICE]

Marth
Upthrow takes 39 frames against him. He is too floaty for uthrow utilt to ever combo on him.

 

[tonic]

Quick question regarding Beat's optimized chaingrab on Fox (copy-pasted here for quick reference):

Upthrow CG flowchart against Fox
Read these notes before reading the flowchart:
- All damage numbers in this guide, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are PRE-THROW percentages.
- This flowchart assumes that you have room to work with. If your opponent starts DIing towards an edge you need to be prepared to cut the combo short with a tipper or dair.
- Every follow-up in every step is reactable. There's no need to guess or read which way they'll DI.
- Pummels aren't mandatory, but they make it easier to execute the following move and the extra damage they tack on means the finishing tipper will be stronger.


1. 0 - 16%: Regular regrabs

2. 17 - 32%:
2a. No DI or slight behind DI: Pivot regrabs.
2b. Any other DI: Regular regrabs.

3.0. 33%:
3.0a. No DI: Turnaround uptilt -> regrab
3.0b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt -> regrab
3.0c. Any other DI: Regular regrab -> pummel

3.1. 34% (the reason it's different from 33% is that uptilt starts becoming unreliable against no DI because of its weird "not-upwards" hitboxes. If you actually get the correct hitbox, it'll still connect into a regrab, so if you feel confident that you can get it every time then just follow the chart for 33%):
3.1a. No DI: Rising SHFFL uair --> regrab
3.1b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt --> regrab
3.1c. Any other DI: Regular regrab

3.2. 35 - ~59%:
4a. No DI or slight behind DI: SHFFL uair -> regrab
4b. Any other DI: Regular regrab

5.0. ~60 - ~65%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> regrab (they should now have at least 80%, but less than 90%)

5.1. ~69 - ~75%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 105%)

6.0. ~80 - ~84%: Pummel once or twice before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 110%)

6.1. ~85 - ~87%: Delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 115%)

7. 90+%: Either upthrow -> tipper or upthrow -> weak uair -> tipper

Is there ever a percent between 17-59 (or possibly even above it) that marth can't always simply pivot grab? As in, does he HAVE to SHFFL upair by 35% on no DI, or can he just continue to pivot grab? I feel that simply grabbing would always be more optimal, as it resets the situation. If not, why would no DI differ from any other DI in that it wouldn't allow for a pivot regrab?

 

[Bones0]

Quick question regarding Beat's optimized chaingrab on Fox (copy-pasted here for quick reference):



Is there ever a percent between 17-59 (or possibly even above it) that marth can't always simply pivot grab? As in, does he HAVE to SHFFL upair by 35% on no DI, or can he just continue to pivot grab? I feel that simply grabbing would always be more optimal, as it resets the situation. If not, why would no DI differ from any other DI in that it wouldn't allow for a pivot regrab?

You can't regrab. That's why he has regrab for 4b on full DI but not 4a.

 

[tonic]

Ah. what makes the difference though? Why would DI away be different from no DI if they both have the same amount of hitstun?

 

[MookieRah]

Trajectory. No DI has them high enough in the air that they could jump out before you had the option to grab I would imagine. By DI'ing away you reduce the amount of height and it isn't a problem.

Really, just practice the **** out of the chain grab and you'll pick up on that intuitively. I actually devised my own system and practiced it (it was optimized for my level at the time) and now I come back to the system that Beat made and was surprised to see just how close mine was to it. In any case, master this, it becomes a lot less daunting over time, and the hidden gem with learning this is it will increase your reaction time for a lot of similar situations against Fox and other characters.

 

[tonic]

Ah... yes of course. Physics at work. Thanks for the explanations.

 

[Dart!]

Is the spacing for shino stall edgehog dash pivot grab far enough away where you can stand in position and not get faired from ledge? I want to use it this week but if I'm too close my opponent loves to fair me from edge then retreat back to ledge.

 

[dude it's raining]

What's the deal with the "inside tipper" on Fsmash? I love watching PewPewU wait for his prey to fall all the way on the ground before fsmashing - I want to know what he knows.

 

[1MachGO]

What is the extent of uthrow knockback interacting with follow ups on Fox/Falco?

For instance, delayed shine dairing someone with Falco will cause the opponent to fall slowly, but the knockback of the shine is completely overridden when done immediately.

Does the knockback of fsmash get dampened by uthrow much like how Falco's shine dampens the knockback on dair? Say Marth uthrows Fox and tippers him at 50%. What is the difference in terms of trajectory/knockback vs. a raw tipper?

Furthermore, would a tipper out of uair always be better than out of a uthrow since the knockback generated from uair is substantially lower?

Are stages like battlefield and yoshi's secretly better than FD since the tech chase tippers on platform generate more knockback than uthrow follow ups?

 

[Rarik]

Uthrow knockback would only affect Fsmash's knockback if you hit them while they're rising. If you do, then Fsmash's knockback would actually be amplified by Uthrow's knockback as the two would combine, resulting in a more upwards trajectory with higher total knockback. Again, this relies on you hitting them while they still have some knockback from Uthrow and thus rising, otherwise there's no effect. From experience, I doubt that this occurs often enough to worry about since most of the time they'll have started to fall by the time you hit them.

 

[Aesir]

Sorry if this was every brought up before, but I have a question regarding the light shield edge hog against marth. There have been times while playing where I've seen someone go for it, and they didn't fall to the edge. It's usually in instances where I UP B, further from the edge than normal. So I hit their shield they don't fall off, and I grab the edge a bit delayed.

Is this a thing, or is it just human error on the light shielders part?

 

[tm]

That's them messing up. If they roll all the way to ledge and shield ASDI your upB away, then they should always fall. It is possible to *not* hit them with the upB and still fade to ledge, however

 

[Dart!]

But if they have good reaction they can just punish your early up b spacing and grab ledge or hit you