Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

[T0RN]

Kando or anyone who can help, Can you show me the weak/strong/tipper parts of marth's fair? Which parts could set up for ken combo/reverse up b?

 

[BTmoney]

Kando or anyone who can help, Can you show me the weak/strong/tipper parts of marth's fair? Which parts could set up for ken combo/reverse up b?

short answer is ken combo is almost never a true combo but almost always a DI trap. every iteration of fair can set up for a dair or upB.

in almost every case if you DI away from a marth fair with you will not get ken combo'd. the trick to landing them is hitting your opponent with while they are off stage so they have to DI your fair away while they are already off the stage.

this will put them in a very bad position, so on reaction you can either fair them again if they are close enough or use your second jump to go back to the stage then try to edge guard them. If they DI'd your fair inwards then you just ken combo them. so when you set it up correctly it's DI in and die or DI out and lose recovery options (but this is often better than taking the spike).

or you can hit them with a fair in a situation where you think they will DI in. that is something you'll have to read and use situational awareness for (ex. they are on a platform at a decent % trying to do something, if they are trying to move towards center stage/jump off the platform then there's a good chance they are holding in. so try to hit them with fair in that situation knowing that. your opponent likely will know how to DI out a ken combo but you can situations like these pretty often. keep in mind you can't DI a hit after you already got hit by it and missed your chance to DI so if you hit them out of their movement at a good/bad time it's already too late. and of course people also just miss their DI a decent amount of the time too).

another ken combo set up is hitting a fair while falling then dashing forward and jumping to chase their DI with a down air.

whether or not you want to soft fair or tipper fair is something that is % and character dependent & honestly it is not that hard of a combo. if you can never get it it's because your opponent is too low in %, too high, or they DI'd out. Those are the only 3 factors. I believe that upB covers more DI and spacings than dair does but that's just how my feel for it goes. Sometimes they are too high for dair to hit but not out of tipper upB range.

there is no 1 ken combo solution, it's not something to rely on. It is something you take when your opponent gives it to you or it's something to threaten your opponent with and see how they respond to it. I find vs. spacies I get more ken combo's off tipper fair at practical percents, upB is usually easier to get in general than dair in my experience as well but that's pretty marginal. but that's just my experience and not a hard answer and they have to DI bad in the first place so this is not a static thing although it is simple.

you should also be able to figure out pretty easily how to get a tipper fair and soft fair if you just practice it in training mode for a few minutes. the cpu won't move and that's the pre-req to marth 101, you can learn your ranges pretty easily. (also I think that picture exists somewhere in this thread)

 

[dude it's raining]

I made a couple of gifs of pewpewu using the throw followups against hbox, for application examples:
https://gfycat.com/WhirlwindSnivelingElephantbeetle
https://gfycat.com/AcrobaticSkeletalAmericankestrel
EDIT: also, a gif of him doing a sick No-Impact-Land Platform Regrab: https://gfycat.com/SolidFrequentAtlanticbluetang

Also, I was wondering if his Fthrow -> Fair kill was guaranteed or not.

 

[Dart!]

Yes it was.

 

[Teh_Squirrel]

I saw that there was a chart for guaranteed fox follow ups from uthrow. Is there anything similar for falco?

 

[Bones0]

I saw that there was a chart for guaranteed fox follow ups from uthrow. Is there anything similar for falco?

The ability to SDI lasers prevents Falco from having guaranteed followups from uthrow.

 

[Teh_Squirrel]

The ability to SDI lasers prevents Falco from having guaranteed followups from uthrow.

I should've worded this better. I meant marth chaingrabbing falco.

 

[SpiderMad]

In appreciating the wonders of Analog joystick and shoulder trigger: have you guys ever done this calculation?

Finding out how many different specific choices you have in Shield angling a Light shield?

Say you can get 40 different light shield sizes X 40 directions X 5 levels of pointing the shield outward

We'd just need the actual numbers to plug in for the 2x2x2=8 different specific scenarios

 

[BTmoney]

When attempting a standard projectile power shield (say falco laser) do you need to go from no press->light press->digital (full) shield press in 1 frame since light shield cannot power shield?

Also is there even >0 frame window for getting a projectile power shield while dashing forward as Marth? I know he greatly contorts his body "out of" his initial shield bubble as he dashes. That is why power shielding while dashing away for example is a lot easier.

 

[Kadano]

When attempting a standard projectile power shield (say falco laser) do you need to go from no press->light press->digital (full) shield press in 1 frame since light shield cannot power shield?

You don’t always need to avoid ADT-PS, but it‘s advisable (and feasible).

Also is there even >0 frame window for getting a projectile power shield while dashing forward as Marth? I know he greatly contorts his body "out of" his initial shield bubble as he dashes. That is why power shielding while dashing away for example is a lot easier.

It depends on the projectile speed and height. There are positions / timings which Marth can’t N-PS from dash and, especially, crouch at all, but they are somewhat rare / unlikely.

 

[Meru]

In the marth ditto on grabs, I've been doing uthrow->uair/fair. I recall somebody saying that uthrow->utilt should never hit vs marth as well. How long does uthrow-> uair/fair true combo? does uthrow-> nair ever combo? Also, on a 0% fthrow on marth, how strict is the DI to escape an immediate forward smash(assuming the other marth is being thrown off ledge, and you're not simply buffering shield/dodge)?

 

[Kadano]

In the marth ditto on grabs, I've been doing uthrow->uair/fair. I recall somebody saying that uthrow->utilt should never hit vs marth as well. How long does uthrow-> uair/fair true combo? does uthrow-> nair ever combo? Also, on a 0% fthrow on marth, how strict is the DI to escape an immediate forward smash(assuming the other marth is being thrown off ledge, and you're not simply buffering shield/dodge)?

Everything I know about that is linked from post #1. Can't provide new research from hospital, sadly.

Against fthrow, down and away DI is sufficient. I explained this somewhere in this thread but I haven't linked the post to the op yet. I'm on a sony ericsson w595 phone here, so searching and editing is out of the question.

 

[AirFair]

Hey @ Kadano , I have a question on the forward b spike.

If I want to land all 3 hits in the air, do you know what DI I would be looking for? Any thing to combo into it?

Sorry if it's a tall order.

 

[SpiderMad]

Everything I know about that is linked from post #1. Can't provide new research from hospital, sadly.

What happened?

 

[Kadano]

What happened?

Got hit by a car while cycling. I should be home tomorrow, fortunately.

 

[AirFair]

Hope you feel better.

 

[Espi]

When is port priority relevant to Marth?

 

[dude it's raining]

When is port priority relevant to Marth?

2 examples I can think of are:
when Sheik does her lowest needle grab on shield, Marth can shield grab her out of it if he has a port closer to P1.
there's a thread about how being P4 makes marth's spacy chain grab last longer b/c it shaves off a frame of endlag from the Uthrow.

 

[Bones0]

Got hit by a car while cycling. I should be home tomorrow, fortunately.

That's what you get for making a gentleman agreement to play on Onett.

But seriously, hope you're okay. lol

 

[Meru]

Kadano, after watching Mango do it, and after fiddling around with it myself, I was wondering about uthrow -> strong hit upb vs fox. It seems like it's guaranteed vs di forward around 100, maybe a little bit less for di behind. Also, when is Uthrow -> Dair guaranteed? it seems to be a somewhat similar timing, though for DI behind a bit more convenient...

 

[tonic]

not kadano, but I'm pretty sure uthrow -> upB doesn't work if the spacie DIs far away by that percent. It's also not very good if they survival DI it, unless you're on a small stage where it might KO. uthrow Dair on the other hand off the top of my head is guaranteed <80%, though if they hard DI i'm not too sure.


I have some questions for you Kadano - are there any guaranteed gimp setups or 50/50 scenarios with marth on fastfallers from fthrow or down throw? (esp. C. Falcon). I feel like this is a topic that for some reason hasn't been explored much. Specifically, to cover all their options, such as drop down low, DJ to sweetspot ledge, or immediate DJ back onto stage. I've heard that a 50/50 mixup off of downthrow on falcon is to counter if they immediately DJ aerial back, or WD off to fair if they do anything besides that.

 

[Kadano]

Kadano, after watching Mango do it, and after fiddling around with it myself, I was wondering about uthrow -> strong hit upb vs fox. It seems like it's guaranteed vs di forward around 100, maybe a little bit less for di behind. Also, when is Uthrow -> Dair guaranteed? it seems to be a somewhat similar timing, though for DI behind a bit more convenient...

not kadano, but I'm pretty sure uthrow -> upB doesn't work if the spacie DIs far away by that percent. It's also not very good if they survival DI it, unless you're on a small stage where it might KO. uthrow Dair on the other hand off the top of my head is guaranteed <80%, though if they hard DI i'm not too sure.

Someone asked me to analyze whether upthrow→up-B was ever a good option some time ago (I think it was on my stream? Not sure, at least I can’t find it as a smashboards post), and if I remember correctly, my conclusion was that it sucks. Tipper-fsmash them if you can send them off from the ledges and if they are below the respective percent thresholds. If they are above those, either go for weak fair combos or, if they are at 110+, for second hit nair. That’s what I believe is best currently. Up-B has its niches, but when you have lots of time to react, there are much better things usually (imho).

I have some questions for you Kadano - are there any guaranteed gimp setups or 50/50 scenarios with marth on fastfallers from fthrow or down throw? (esp. C. Falcon). I feel like this is a topic that for some reason hasn't been explored much. Specifically, to cover all their options, such as drop down low, DJ to sweetspot ledge, or immediate DJ back onto stage. I've heard that a 50/50 mixup off of downthrow on falcon is to counter if they immediately DJ aerial back, or WD off to fair if they do anything besides that.

Yeah, you can do that against Falcon. It’s okay against him because even if he uairs you, you usually don’t take much damage from that. But if a Fox shines you or a Falco dairs you, you’re usually dead, so I’d be really cautious with going offstage against them when they still have their jump.

 

[tonic]

Makes sense - but why would counter be used in place of downtilt or fsmash? It wouldn't cover empty DJ, while an attack would cover both options.

But is there no best way to cover the most options after a down throw that leaves them off and below the stage?

 

[Kadano]

If your opponent knows what he is doing and plays Fox or Falco, you can only intercept his sweetspot rejump with run-off fair and similar stuff, for which they have the aforementioned countermeasures. There’s also things like run off to jump back dair, but I’m pretty sure this covers only a few timings of your opponent’s jump. If they slow their fall with shine, they can simply out-wait you.
I will look into this again when I have the time, but from my tests so far I’m quite sure that this is not a set-in-stone situation. Prediction and conditioning your opponent is necessary here to have the highest gimp rates from throw off the ledge.

 

[Atomi]

heyo

not necessarily directed at Kadano, but i would appreciate it if someone could clarify a few terms for me:

Smash DI (inputs, which part of the controller does what / out-prioritizes what, etc...detailed frame-specific information seems to be hard to come by)
Shield Dropping ("...")

 

[dude it's raining]

Shield Dropping ("...")

http://smashboards.com/threads/shai-drop-update-detailed-guide-frame-data.322062/

 

[Kadano]

heyo

not necessarily directed at Kadano, but i would appreciate it if someone could clarify a few terms for me:

Smash DI (inputs, which part of the controller does what / out-prioritizes what, etc...detailed frame-specific information seems to be hard to come by)
Shield Dropping ("...")

Smash DI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RP3sbS7Dm0
Advanced DI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkdPVUlrSOo

Input maps: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2hjfn6/inputoutput_control_stick_maps/
Shield drops: see links in post #1 of this thread (there’s probably quite a few other posts linked there which answer some of your questions) and this post by @achilles1515

 

[Atomi]

Smash DI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RP3sbS7Dm0
Advanced DI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkdPVUlrSOo

Input maps: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2hjfn6/inputoutput_control_stick_maps/
Shield drops: see links in post #1 of this thread (there’s probably quite a few other posts linked there which answer some of your questions) and this post by @achilles1515

thank you for the prompt response!

quick questions not covered in any of those links: does the C-stick out-prioritize the Analog-stick when it comes to SDI? Can I SDI with both the Analog-stick and the C-stick on the same frame? if not, is it optimal to attempt to do so anyway in hopes of increasing the odds of the proper timing?

 

[Kadano]

quick questions not covered in any of those links: does the C-stick out-prioritize the Analog-stick when it comes to SDI? Can I SDI with both the Analog-stick and the C-stick on the same frame? if not, is it optimal to attempt to do so anyway in hopes of increasing the odds of the proper timing?

That‘s actually covered by the first video.
SDI can only be input with the control stick (again, mentioned in the video).

 

[Atomi]

My memory conflated ASDI with SDI. Thanks for putting up with it

 

[MookieRah]

So despite the fact that an uair is guaranteed from an uthrow on low percents against Fox, while watching PP's vids he throws out utilt just as much if not more than uair. Especially on Stadium, in which case it seems as if utilt covers most of the platform there.

So my question is, on Stadium, can someone utilt on reaction instead of uair that covers all options? I'm thinking a turn-around utilt would not be something you have the ability to react and be able to do if your opponent doesn't tech and immediately stands. I'd love to be proven wrong though, and it'd be nice to have the numbers as to the viability of utilt, as it seems the reward from an utilt is more than an uair around the 20% range.

I really don't think utilt is a great option on BF despite PP using it well there, because I'm thinking that there is a much higher risk for failure than if one simply perfected the uthrow uair. This is just an assumption though.

 

[YoloTango]

Uair is worse at lower percents because it can be ASDI'd down pretty easily from my experience

 

[MookieRah]

Well the thing is this: uair tipper is pretty much guaranteed (barring human error on Marth's part) against pretty much every character on at least BF's platforms, if not most of the mid platforms. Utilt is not, and would require positioning before hand. I also don't think ASDI down will stop a tipper uair, but yeah, non-tippers would likely be crouch canceled.

To me, that still makes uair > utilt, as I doubt utilt is guaranteed on any platform, much less most. That said, I want to know if utilt can cover all the options for some platforms, because it's more rewarding on hit.

 

[Atomi]

Kadano,

is practicing on the emulator indistinguishable from practicing on console? would it be impractical to practice tech skill?

 

[Kadano]

Kadano,

is practicing on the emulator indistinguishable from practicing on console? would it be impractical to practice tech skill?

From the lag measurements I took, I cannot prove that playing Melee on Dolphin with a CRT monitor has more lag than Gamecube with the same CRT monitor.

If you don’t have a CRT monitor to use with your Dolphin setup, I recommend defaulting to Gamecube+CRT instead. It’s not a good idea to take any risks with lag. But that’s just my opinion, leffen said that he feels his LCD monitor is fast enough to be fine for practicing. He uses it with a Wii, though, not with PC / Dolphin.

Honestly, just practice on Gamecube+CRT and use the Dolphin setup for testing.

 

[Atomi]

From the lag measurements I took, I cannot prove that playing Melee on Dolphin with a CRT monitor has more lag than Gamecube with the same CRT monitor.

If you don’t have a CRT monitor to use with your Dolphin setup, I recommend defaulting to Gamecube+CRT instead. It’s not a good idea to take any risks with lag. But that’s just my opinion, leffen said that he feels his LCD monitor is fast enough to be fine for practicing. He uses it with a Wii, though, not with PC / Dolphin.

Honestly, just practice on Gamecube+CRT and use the Dolphin setup for testing.

thank you.

could you explain to me why playing on an emulator with an LCD monitor would still cause input lag?

 

[Kadano]

thank you.

could you explain to me why playing on an emulator with an LCD monitor would still cause input lag?

LCD monitors have innate lag. The very fastest monitors of today have something like 1-2 milliseconds, which is ~2000 times as much as a (non-laggy) CRT. Source: http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/specials/inputlag/inputlag-part14.html

Depending on whether Dolphin and Windows process the controller inputs as quickly as the Gamecube, Dolphin might cause some additional lag as well, but I think that’s unlikely.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Is pivot forwards smash out of f-throw/d-throw a legitimate kill option on any non-Jigglypuff characters? I'm wondering if it's actually worth going for or if I should try for a fair or an up-throw into juggle instead.

 

[1MachGO]

Is pivot forwards smash out of f-throw/d-throw a legitimate kill option on any non-Jigglypuff characters? I'm wondering if it's actually worth going for or if I should try for a fair or an up-throw into juggle instead.

Followups ultimately depend on the DI, %, and the char. Generally speaking it's more legit on floatier and lighter chars (ie chars like jiggly puff).

 

[Nicholas1024]

Followups ultimately depend on the DI, %, and the char. Generally speaking it's more legit on floatier and lighter chars (ie chars like jiggly puff).

I'm aware of that. What I want to know is if there's a single DI the opponent can use to avoid both D-throw and F-throw into tipper F-smash, or if they have to guess and hope to get lucky. The difference in usefulness between a legitimate 50-50 kill mixup and a gimmick that relies on bad DI is huge.