Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

[1MachGO]

I'm aware of that. What I want to know is if there's a single DI the opponent can use to avoid both D-throw and F-throw into tipper F-smash, or if they have to guess and hope to get lucky. The difference in usefulness between a legitimate 50-50 kill mixup and a gimmick that relies on bad DI is huge.

Hard to say. I would be inclined to say that DI down and away will get them out all the time (for fthrow) since dthrow is too slow to get good follow ups on heavier chars.

 

[Kadano]

Is pivot forwards smash out of f-throw/d-throw a legitimate kill option on any non-Jigglypuff characters? I'm wondering if it's actually worth going for or if I should try for a fair or an up-throw into juggle instead.

I did look for them and found none. Against Peach, wrong DI requires her to jump out and air dodge—if she doesn’t do that, you can land an fsmash on her. I don’t think I need to say that this is very gimmicky.

 

[Malurth]

Eyyy Kadano, can I get a frame breakdown of the following situation:

Marth counters Falco's firebird at the ledge as an edgeguard and drops down to swat his second firebird's startup; however, Falco uses Phantasm instead and meteors Marth, taking Marth with him.

Someone is arguing to me that Marth can meteor cancel this with an upB and still recover; I maintain you'd need a doublejump to do so. Also would like an idea of the viable counterplay from Marth for this tactic; I assume you could just grab ledge after the counter and do an invincible bair/dair on Falco, but I don't like operating on assumptions.

I'm pretty sure this is an unsafe option for Falco, but it's better than being a sitting duck.

Thanks for everything you do, Kadano.

 

[tonic]

wait or grab ledge
wait for falco to do something
hit him again for the KO. There's no need to rush down there immediately/

 

[tm]

Eyyy Kadano, can I get a frame breakdown of the following situation:

Marth counters Falco's firebird at the ledge as an edgeguard and drops down to swat his second firebird's startup; however, Falco uses Phantasm instead and meteors Marth, taking Marth with him.

Someone is arguing to me that Marth can meteor cancel this with an upB and still recover; I maintain you'd need a doublejump to do so. Also would like an idea of the viable counterplay from Marth for this tactic; I assume you could just grab ledge after the counter and do an invincible bair/dair on Falco, but I don't like operating on assumptions.

I'm pretty sure this is an unsafe option for Falco, but it's better than being a sitting duck.

Thanks for everything you do, Kadano.

Without doing a frame analysis I hypothesize that you can go for the dropdown 'swat' (personally, I like fastfall -> first hit sideB in this situation, or tipper upB depending on spacing) and if he starts phantasm, you can upB back to ledge before it hits you. Even if this is not feasible and you get hit by it, a meteor cancel double jump + upB should get you back to ledge / stage. I agree in your belief that upB alone would generally not give you enough height to get back after dropping down and getting hit by the phantasm, but that depends on several factors.

 

[Bones0]

Eyyy Kadano, can I get a frame breakdown of the following situation:

Marth counters Falco's firebird at the ledge as an edgeguard and drops down to swat his second firebird's startup; however, Falco uses Phantasm instead and meteors Marth, taking Marth with him.

Someone is arguing to me that Marth can meteor cancel this with an upB and still recover; I maintain you'd need a doublejump to do so. Also would like an idea of the viable counterplay from Marth for this tactic; I assume you could just grab ledge after the counter and do an invincible bair/dair on Falco, but I don't like operating on assumptions.

I'm pretty sure this is an unsafe option for Falco, but it's better than being a sitting duck.

Thanks for everything you do, Kadano.

There's too many variables to do a frame breakdown. You need to take into account Falco's %, Marth's %, Falco's DI, how far Marth is from the edge, how high Falco is when he gets hit, etc.

 

[BTmoney]

Eyyy Kadano, can I get a frame breakdown of the following situation:

Marth counters Falco's firebird at the ledge as an edgeguard and drops down to swat his second firebird's startup; however, Falco uses Phantasm instead and meteors Marth, taking Marth with him.

Someone is arguing to me that Marth can meteor cancel this with an upB and still recover; I maintain you'd need a doublejump to do so. Also would like an idea of the viable counterplay from Marth for this tactic; I assume you could just grab ledge after the counter and do an invincible bair/dair on Falco, but I don't like operating on assumptions.

I'm pretty sure this is an unsafe option for Falco, but it's better than being a sitting duck.

Thanks for everything you do, Kadano.

If you play a level 9 CPU and hit them with a meteor smash sometimes they'll meteor cancel it almost instantaneously. IIRC Kirby or Puff for example only fall 1-2 character heights (so not very far at all). If falco is low but close enough to make it to the ledge with an up B you should be able to make it back to the ledge with your up B considering it is much longer. This has happened to me before in similar situations and you just meteor cancel and it works fine for me. I think about that sometimes when I go out there and I just get ready to meteor cancel if I don't see flames. It's something I just subconsciously keep from happening. And now that I think about it, whether or not you get meteor smashed out of your fair attempt or w/e you pretty much push up B at the same time you would if you fair'd him and up B'd back to the ledge.

Thinking about it more if you pick your angles and what you are trying to cut off wisely you can flat out stay out of the range of a side B meteor a lot of the time. Falco has to fly upwards so you could just swing at where he has to go if he wants to live, if you miss then he dies anyways.

If he's so low that getting meteor smashed for a split second would jeopardize you then he's too low up B on to the stage and you should just hold on to the ledge.

There's also a good chance that after you wavedash to ledge you'll be invincible still as you go down to swat him (cause remember, there is a distance constraint on how far falco can be from the ledge and you have a big sword so you don't have to move very far horizontally from the ledge to swat falco,).

 

[Rachman]

1.) Are there any gimmicky kill set ups worth learning out of throw on Peach? As in, if they don't immediately get out of hitstun and airdodge perfectly? Obviously it would have to be pretty close to being a true combo to work against anyone very good but I'm assuming few Peaches are going to react perfectly
2.) For chaingrabbing spacies why does dd JC grab not work at pivot %s, is it because JC grabs make you slide? All a pivot grab is is just grabbing on the standing frame, correct? I saw the image of why Marth has to pivot instead of turn, does that just mean pivot grab is used to position yourself properly? Is shield pivot grab lazy or is it a fine replacement to increase consistency?
3.) Is the fastest way to dtilt out of a DD pivot dtilt? How feasible is it? Is there any disadvantage to using Gravy's quarter circle technique for pivot dtilts, since it seems like it puts your hands in the perfect place to possibly do them but there might be something I don't know about them. What are the other fast ways to dtilt out of a DD?

I apologize if all this has been answered, I'll be reading through the whole thread after the semester is over but I didn't find the answers to these questions with a quick search.

 

[dude it's raining]

I think I remember reading somewhere that Marth's Dair Tipper hitbox has priority over the sourspot. Looking at the data on ssbwiki, I'm pretty sure it's true, but I'm a little confused by this kind of priority. I've also read that most of his tippers have low priority, and that they made the Dair tipper have low priority in Brawl.

My question is: I'm doing frame data for PM, and keep second guessing myself about priority. Does the lower ID mean higher or lower priority?


EDIT: I found out why I was confused. In PM debug mode, high priority hitboxes are illustrated on top. However, the brawlbox previewer for some reason displays low priority hitboxes on top.

 

[Meru]

I think I remember reading somewhere that Marth's Dair Tipper hitbox has priority over the sourspot. Looking at the data on ssbwiki, I'm pretty sure it's true, but I'm a little confused by this kind of priority. I've also read that most of his tippers have low priority, and that they made the Dair tipper have low priority in Brawl.

My question is: I'm doing frame data for PM, and keep second guessing myself about priority. Does the lower ID mean higher or lower priority?

At least in melee (cause I really don't know anything about brawl), the Dair tipper does have priority over the other hitboxes. That is to say, the closer a hitbox is to "0" (or if it is 0), the higher priority it has. In this case, Dair's tipper is hitbox 0, his head region is 1, his arm is 2, the middle of the blade is 3.

 

[Bones0]

I think I remember reading somewhere that Marth's Dair Tipper hitbox has priority over the sourspot. Looking at the data on ssbwiki, I'm pretty sure it's true, but I'm a little confused by this kind of priority. I've also read that most of his tippers have low priority, and that they made the Dair tipper have low priority in Brawl.

My question is: I'm doing frame data for PM, and keep second guessing myself about priority. Does the lower ID mean higher or lower priority?

I would guess that the game checks hitboxes in order from lowest # ID to highest #.

Kadano confirms that in his latest video, actually. lol

 

[Kadano]

Don’t expect answers from me here in the near future unless your questions are very specific and don’t require one hour (or more) of testing on my part. I’m dedicating my time to making more video guides as these are much more accessible than posts here. Posts on pages ~20-27 took very long for me to write / test for, and i don’t think anyone is finding these if he searches for the corresponding key words, so I think I should stop doing Q&A style. I will probably only do so if the resulting post is in a format that makes sense to link from the OP.

2.) For chaingrabbing spacies why does dd JC grab not work at pivot %s, is it because JC grabs make you slide? All a pivot grab is is just grabbing on the standing frame, correct? I saw the image of why Marth has to pivot instead of turn, does that just mean pivot grab is used to position yourself properly? Is shield pivot grab lazy or is it a fine replacement to increase consistency?

At ~20%, hitstun is low and adding one or more frames of kneebend will be enough waste to lose your perfect frame link.

3.) Is the fastest way to dtilt out of a DD pivot dtilt? How feasible is it? Is there any disadvantage to using Gravy's quarter circle technique for pivot dtilts, since it seems like it puts your hands in the perfect place to possibly do them but there might be something I don't know about them. What are the other fast ways to dtilt out of a DD?

Pivot dtilt is feasible and the fastest way to dtilt from dash, yes.
Quarter circle input for pivot dtilt is good, I don’t think there’s a faster reliable way to do them, only equally quick ones.

 

[dude it's raining]

I would guess that the game checks hitboxes in order from lowest # ID to highest #.
Kadano confirms that in his latest video, actually. lol

Bad stuff tends to happen when I make guesses...
But yeah, I just saw his vid right after I read your post.

 

[1MachGO]

Pivot dtilt is feasible and the fastest way to dtilt from dash, yes.
Quarter circle input for pivot dtilt is good, I don’t think there’s a faster reliable way to do them, only equally quick ones.

Is approaching pivot dtilt feasible, though?

As in, dash right>pivot inputs>dtilt right?

And if so, which input is faster?

dash right>dash left>immediate pivot (now facing right)>dtilt

or

dash right>pivot (facing left)>smash turn>dtilt

My guess is that the first input would technically be faster but obviously harder to execute, whilst the second input (though easier) may be slower than walk>dtilt lol

 

[tonic]

I asked that here: http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/31mr6q/metagame_monday/cq3x8ea?context=3

Schmoobilidon isn't Kadano, but I trust the dedication and accuracy he has in his posts.

 

[net1234]

Im playing around with introducing ccs into my vs falco

what%s can i cc grab nair/weaknair/dair/weakdair. if they do it low can i grab before shine comes out?

 

[BTmoney]

This has been answered somewhere, not here per se, but is there a good/consistent way for Marth to DI out of a Samus upB in v1.02 specifically?

Or more specifically DI out the up B and break his tumble animation and beat samus to the ground (or at least tie).

I know Fox can do some type of DI, not sure what kind, and mash B to shoot a laser (which automatically auto cancels--lol) to break his tumble and land with the standard amount of jump->land lag and beat Samus to the ground

 

[curi]

hi, i've been confused because i can SH fair then double jump with marth pretty easy (works fine with fair a bit late), but i can't SH fair waveland. i thought airdodging was a 1 frame thing like double jumping, so would have the same timing. (or else you'd notice the delay when wavedashing)

i came up with a guess about what's happening: the IASA frames on Marth's fair allow for double jump (or 2nd fair) but not airdodge. i thought IASA allowed you to do anything, but now i suspect it only allows some actions and not others. i couldn't think of why else i could jump at that timing but not airdodge. is that right or is something else going on? if it's right, what are the rules for IASA frames?

EDIT i noticed with dtilt IASA frames, you can roll, but can't shield or spot dodge.

 

[YoloTango]

hi, i've been confused because i can SH fair then double jump with marth pretty easy (works fine with fair a bit late), but i can't SH fair waveland. i thought airdodging was a 1 frame thing like double jumping, so would have the same timing. (or else you'd notice the delay when wavedashing)

i came up with a guess about what's happening: the IASA frames on Marth's fair allow for double jump (or 2nd fair) but not airdodge. i thought IASA allowed you to do anything, but now i suspect it only allows some actions and not others. i couldn't think of why else i could jump at that timing but not airdodge. is that right or is something else going on? if it's right, what are the rules for IASA frames?

EDIT i noticed with dtilt IASA frames, you can roll, but can't shield or spot dodge.

You can't airdodge or do B moves in IASA frames. You can't roll directly out of dtilt, but you can walk/dash, so the input works for all intents and purposes.

You can, however, sh fair waveland if you fair soon enough after leaving the ground.

 

[Binx]

Hey Kadano I want to just thank you for this, I know it takes a lot of effort to do this kind of work on the game and its really, really awesome of you.

 

[P D]

Can you give me more info or point me in the right direction on how to preform the d-tilt cancel? as in the frames after the t tilt is preformed that you can cancel and what moves can and cannot be canceled

thanks!

 

[Kadano]

Can you give me more info or point me in the right direction on how to preform the d-tilt cancel? as in the frames after the t tilt is preformed that you can cancel and what moves can and cannot be canceled

thanks!

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Marth_(SSBM)/Down_tilt

 

[P D]

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Marth_(SSBM)/Down_tilt

thanks for the link.

I remember reading somewhere that not every input can interrupt Interruptible frames. is that untrue? would be great if you could clarify.

also im confused by this "tutorial" on it

https://youtu.be/HfuVQN5cwy0?t=1m1s

 

[1MachGO]

Has anyone of you ever been able to pull off one of these? I’ve tried somewhat often, but never even came close.

What is the leniency (if any) to transfer momentum to the sticky walk?

 

[Kadano]

thanks for the link.

I remember reading somewhere that not every input can interrupt Interruptible frames. is that untrue? would be great if you could clarify.

also im confused by this "tutorial" on it

https://youtu.be/HfuVQN5cwy0?t=1m1s

Holding backwards triggers a turn at the first actionable frame. During turn, shielding is possible.

What is the leniency (if any) to transfer momentum to the sticky walk?

Any frame off from frame perfection will decrease your total movement speed. If you stay within roughly 4 frames, the difference isn’t that large though. I’m gonna try to visualize this along with other movement tools.

 

[1MachGO]

Holding backwards triggers a turn at the first actionable frame. During turn, shielding is possible.


Any frame off from frame perfection will decrease your total movement speed. If you stay within roughly 4 frames, the difference isn’t that large though. I’m gonna try to visualize this along with other movement tools.

Hm, that is actually more lenient than I would have guessed, but it feels almost impossible to time the inputs.

Speaking of movement, what exactly is a boost run and does Marth have a good one? I've seen it mentioned here and there but not really described

 

[tauKhan]

Speaking of movement, what exactly is a boost run and does Marth have a good one? I've seen it mentioned here and there but not really described

"Boost run" is apparently moonwalk -> run -> run turn. The properties of the run turn make it possible for chars with high dash acceleration to go ridiculously fast during the turn. Since Marth has low dash acceleration, he can't use this to go fast. My source is here http://smashboards.com/threads/ultimate-ground-movement-analysis-turbo-edition.392367/#post-18783771 (It's a very informative post and thread)

I haven't heard of the term from elsewhere than westballz and the thread I linked though.

 

[Massive]

So, I've recently been looking into teching marth's dtilt ledgeguard for a certain Captain Falcon friend of mine, and I've concluded it is possible but insanely hard to do reliably. Is there any frame data concerning the tolerances for this? I've gone through it frame by frame myself, but have been unable to replicate it.

I was pretty sure I had been wasting my time until I saw it happen in this video. Thoughts?

 

[tauKhan]

@ Massive It's not hard at all if you ride the wall so that you basically touch the wall before the hit. One significant requirement though is that the dtilt needs to do tumble kb. In pal the dtilt caused tumble in my tests at around 69% (after hit) for tipper, and 109% (after hit) middle hitbox on falcon. I could ASDI tech a tipper dtilt even at 250%, so all you need to do is to press R/L within 20 frames of hitting the wall (counting hitlag, though if you ASDI tech, then you need to press before hitlag) and hold towards the ledge.

 

[Massive]

@ Massive It's not hard at all if you ride the wall so that you basically touch the wall before the hit. One significant requirement though is that the dtilt needs to do tumble kb. In pal the dtilt caused tumble in my tests at around 69% for tipper, and 109% middle hitbox on falcon. I could ASDI tech a tipper dtilt even at 250%, so all you need to do is to press R/L within 20 frames of hitting the wall (counting hitlag, though if you ASDI tech, then you need to press before hitlag) and hold towards the ledge.

Interesting, so it's a % based issue then?
That's not particularly good news, since my hopes were mainly to deliver a solution against low % gimps from dtilt.

Thank you, regardless.

 

[tauKhan]

Also if you want to know more about wall teching, watch Kadano's Teching and advanced DI melee mechanics vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkdPVUlrSOo

Edit: @ Kadano @ Massive Yeah you're right, the video doesn't really cover the the fact that you can only tech in tumble.

 

[TheCandyman]

You can, however, sh fair waveland if you fair soon enough after leaving the ground.

Why don't I see more marths do this? Is it just a tough input to perform consistently or is it's applicability not good enough because I feel like it would make extending combos more seemless. Like wavelanded fair into uptilt then juggles idk? Or is it the whole "Marth should never jump in the neutral thing"

 

[Massive]

Also if you want to know more about wall teching, watch Kadano's Teching and advanced DI melee mechanics vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkdPVUlrSOo

Yeah, I examined that video pretty thoroughly and was unable to understand why I couldn't get the tech to work.

The tumble animation being a requirement wasn't really mentioned in the video, as far as I know (or I missed it) and that's why I came here to ask.

 

[Kadano]

Yeah, I examined that video pretty thoroughly and was unable to understand why I couldn't get the tech to work.

The tumble animation being a requirement wasn't really mentioned in the video, as far as I know (or I missed it) and that's why I came here to ask.

Actually, tumble is not always a requirement for teching. You can tech during strong knockback hitstun, during certain weak knockback hitstun animations (especially from throws) and during tumble.

I mention the fact that 80 KB is the threshold for knockdown in my earlier video on knockback and hitstun, so I assume that knowledge in all videos after that.

Dtilt has low knockback growth, so yeah, it takes pretty long until it exceeds 80. To get the values for the respective character, staling amount and hitbox I recommend Strong Bad’s knockback calculator (linked in post #1 of this thread).

 

[Massive]

Very interesting, thank for the info @ Kadano

 

[tauKhan]

I mention the fact that 80 KB is the threshold for knockdown in my earlier video on knockback and hitstun, so I assume that knowledge in all videos after that.

I think it would be good to mention that the knockdown is required for teching, I don't think it's that obvious, especially in the case of wall or ceiling teching. I remember that I had to go test myself whether or not I can SDI walltech off of weak hits.

 

[Bones0]

Actually, tumble is not a requirement for teching. Strong knockback is a requirement, which usually leads into tumble if you don’t tech. Tumble is correlation here, not causation.

I mention the fact that 80 KB is the threshold for knockdown in my earlier video on knockback and hitstun, so I assume that knowledge in all videos after that.

Dtilt has low knockback growth, so yeah, it takes pretty long until it exceeds 80. To get the values for the respective character, staling amount and hitbox I recommend Strong Bad’s knockback calculator (linked in post #1 of this thread).

What moves don't send you into tumble but can be teched?

 

[tauKhan]

I think the point is that strong kb animation isn't actually tumble, but leads to it later. Also it's not entirely correct to say strong kb is requirement for teching, since you can also tech from tumble caused by slipping off platform backwards in shield.

 

[Kadano]

I think it would be good to mention that the knockdown is required for teching, I don't think it's that obvious, especially in the case of wall or ceiling teching. I remember that I had to go test myself whether or not I can SDI walltech off of weak hits.

Yeah, I originally meant to state “strong knockback hitstun or tumble” at 0:08, but now I remember that I removed that part because there are things that contradict that, so it made more sense for me to word it more generally so I wouldn’t contradict the actual findings we are likely to get in the future.
For example, if Marth dthrows a Fox at 0%, he goes into tumble and tech / knockdown even though the knockback is only 75. So tumble is a requirement here, even though it’s <80 knockback. Dthrow always puts the target into DamageFlyTop, which seems to always go into tumble (and knockdown / tech, upon collision). Interestingly, jump buffering is not allowed when the knockback is below 80, even though the character goes into tumble and knockdown.

It seems that the flag that enables teching and knockdown does not have a simple set of requirements like “either strong KB or tumble” for its activation, but behaves differently for different knockback animations.

What moves don't send you into tumble but can be teched?

Moves that deal >80 KB, but less than 7 damage when they hit someone in knockdown and have them collide with a wall within the first 12 frames of knockback. Interestingly, ceiling collision are completely prohibited, but I don’t see this ever being of importance in a match with our current stage roster.

I think the point is that strong kb animation isn't actually tumble, but leads to it later. Also it's not entirely correct to say strong kb is requirement for teching, since you can also tech from tumble caused by slipping off platform backwards in shield.

Yeah, that’s true. I edited my post slightly, but I’m still not really happy with it. With the inconsistencies I mention above, I’m afraid that the only correct and precise explanations will be very complicated.

 

[Massive]

Using Kadano's info I have been able to determine that this is the earliest % (not accounting for stale moves) these characters can tech marth's dtilt tipper (hitbox 3).

Captain Falcon: 60%
Sheik: 55%
Peach: 55%
Marth 54%
Falco: 52%
Fox: 50%
Puff: 45%

Anyway, thanks for the info everyone, I always enjoy figuring out new things to add to the meta.