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Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

Wafflesaurus

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Sep 23, 2013
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Wafflesaurus
Should I use control stick or C-stick for throws?
Honestly, it doesn't really matter. You could say using c stick is better because it doesn't mess up your DI in case you don't get the grab and because you can buffer d throw but that's basically it.
 

WalmartShoes

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
2
Hey Kadano,

I was recently reading a MIOM article on the Marth vs. Sheik matchup, and came across this:
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"First of all, the grabs. When you are grabbed at zero to low percent, Sheik has a pseudo chain-grab if you DI away. At zero percent I do not believe there is a way to get out of it without eating utilts. Around 8-20% you can get out of it by DI-ing up and away, and starting a fast fall right at or near the apex of your jump. I apologize if this is vague: it is a very difficult, advanced maneuver and I am not always successful with it!

There was one player I played, Knivez, an old-school Fox main who was ranked in SoCal’s Top 5 back when I first started playing. He quit around 2008, but I played him for a few sessions after that, before he got too rusty, and he was almost exclusively playing Marth. To this day I have never seen better DI from a Marth than his. It taught me that with proper DI, Marth can get out of most combos with minimum damage, ready to forward B or fair his opponent for even the slightest of over-commitments.

He got out of this pseudo-chain grab / back-breaking combo tree with aplomb, and the above direction is precisely how he told me how he did it. I pull it off inconsistently but I can confirm from my own experience that it works! Experiment!"
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I was wondering if you could do a breakdown of Marth's options vs. Sheik's d-throw, and also check on this option of fastfalling out of it?

Here's the whole article: http://www.meleeitonme.com/guest-article-marth-vs-sheik-guide/

P.S. You're doing amazing work in this thread; I've learned so much just seeing the stuff on here and trying to experiment vs my friends. Thanks
 

SpiderMad

Smash Master
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May 6, 2012
Messages
4,968
Honestly, it doesn't really matter. You could say using c stick is better because it doesn't mess up your DI in case you don't get the grab and because you can buffer d throw but that's basically it.
Why does it buffer d-throw but not other throws?
 

BTmoney

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Hey Kadano,

A lot of your research on followups off of upthrow such as this one on Sheik has not-guaranteed 1-frame links. Were most of these followups tested with Marth as Player 1? Because of extra frame of followup when Marth is in a higher port than his opponent, wouldn't this technically allow a lot of not-guaranteed followups to become guaranteed, and allow a lot of difficult, frame-perfect followups leniency? If this is the case, I think having a higher port is extremely important for Marth.

Also, in the Sheik followups, how does FH fair stack up to FH upair? Is it ever guaranteed at mid-high percents? 50%+
Can we elaborate on this, what exactly does Marth gain by being a higher port and what are the limitations of the advantage?
What is "follow up leniency"? Is it less hitlag, shorter animations, less ariel lag, etc. where does this 1 frame come from (and less importantly why is it there)
 
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Kadano

Magical Express
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BTmoney

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Could we get a .gif of frame perfect max speed/distance foxtrots?

Maybe 3 iterations left then 3 right, the number isn't super important just more than 1. I'm trying to really build up a mastery of marth's movement/ranges
 
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victinivcreate1

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@ Kadano Kadano

I hope I'm not being a bother, but do you think you could provide stills for Side B and Up B? Specifically, I'm looking for stills of frame 7 and 8 for Side B (you've posted only frame 6), and for Up B, frames 6, 8, 9 and 10 (you posted stills of 5 and 7 earlier). Using it for edgeguarding purposes. Trying to see where Marth is open on these frames and looking to see if its somewhat feasible to get back hit of Falco or Fox's shine to hit these.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Aug 31, 2005
Messages
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Jarrettsville, MD
@ Kadano Kadano

I hope I'm not being a bother, but do you think you could provide stills for Side B and Up B? Specifically, I'm looking for stills of frame 7 and 8 for Side B (you've posted only frame 6), and for Up B, frames 6, 8, 9 and 10 (you posted stills of 5 and 7 earlier). Using it for edgeguarding purposes. Trying to see where Marth is open on these frames and looking to see if its somewhat feasible to get back hit of Falco or Fox's shine to hit these.
Use the side-B gif from the thread and download the GIF Scrubber extension for Chrome.
 

Signia

Smash Lord
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Feb 5, 2009
Messages
1,157
Any word on that Marth upthrowing Sheik combo data? Was only no-DI tested, or does DI not matter for the entries that don't mention DI? I find it hard to believe that uthrow utilt works and has the same leniency at 23% for both away DI and toward DI. Also, does port priority affect it?
 

tonic

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
51
I believe this may be new Marth tech (not discovered by me): https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/3evdlv/daily_discussion_thread_072815/ctisi4u

Basically, on Yoshi's Story (stages with a sloped ledge), Marth can actually invincibly DJ ledgestall. The inputs are:
FF from the ledge as soon as possible (Frame 9)
FF for 5 frames
DJ (Frame 14)
Grab ledge

I tested this briefly and here are my conclusions: Both the fastfall and the DJ require frame perfection. If you DJ 1 frame early, you lose a significant amount of intangibility. If you DJ one frame too late, you lose 1 frame on intangibility. I didn't test past that, but I'm assuming everything else is not intangible. I think this is a pretty big discovery because it makes use of the haxdash (which also requires multiple frame perfect inputs) unnecessary on Yoshi's Story. But you'd have to learn it and it would only be applicable on this stage, and consistency would always be an issue.
 
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SpiderMad

Smash Master
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4,968
So I've been wondering. Wasn't there a 3 frame buffer or something on Rolls/Spot dodges with the control stick? And doesn't using the C-stick to Buffer Rolls/Spotdodges automatically enable shield for a frame then do the Spotdodge? So with how lenient a 3 frame buffer is already, shouldn't people be opting to go for that instead of getting that extra frame of delay where it turns on shield first with the C-stick (and is shield even on/working during the very first frame? somehow I don't know this)?

Also I've been thinking of how to utilize SH Bair DJ WL more, doing it frame perfect gives a decent waveland (especially more so I think if you did the actual Bair frame perfect giving you the lower overall jump height)

I also have no clue how to get a controller's control stick loose. Even my brutal friend has been using this Silver one for the longest time and it hasn't gotten loose. I'm guessing most Silvers out there have that White/Newer type stick box that lasts longer. I got this old Purple my friends use to use that became loose as hell somehow (in a good way, for me at least), maybe only the old ones can get actual loose: though I've heard people say the Whites eventually do (though I haven't felt one that was any loose as I've felt other's controllers, let alone any controller out there that is as loose as my Purple https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dDGnmZbN8I&index=27&list=PLovBMkMLex7wYg0HcCVfW1g-cdrSXy51M )

I've also been waiting for Kadano to make a video on Shoulder Spacer inserts. Ergonomics are everything, he doesn't understand just how huge/popular the mods he's done for people can become (though obviously he himself and a dozen others he's done mods for all realize how great they are) if he properly conveys how to do them with standard/easy to find tools/objects.

My ideal controller is:

Control stick made really loose somehow (but slightly less loose than my current Purple)

L trigger (Which I use everything for) Spring slightly weakened and Hard press rubber majorly weakened and small spacer inserted (which I've never experienced but I'm guessing would be nice).

R trigger spring removed for Power Shielding (and +spacer? )

and then maybe later on experiment with Control Stick Casing Notches, though I can't say if I would like them as I haven't experienced it.

I also like how Z-PS'ing dropped off the face of the earth now in terms of people talking about it lol, I never got around to practicing it much aside from a couple minutes. It pry is useful enough that people should be really be doing it vs Falco, but we'll have to see or something I guess: Armada/Leffen are so consistent already though.

What actions/sequences actually performs a Dash Shield drop and why does it work.

What are Marth's best options for Falco's Double Ledge laser again? I remember Kadano has the most brutal one with the grab thing that breaks the grab and sends them off stage, but wasn't that too hard to consistently get?

When should I go for an Uair/Nair from the ledge onto the stage versus a Fair?

Is B-turnaround Side-b (either the single use or the 1-2 of it) a lot slower than using Bair or is it sometimes faster to go for that to turnaround to grab the ledge? M2K always uses Bair.
 
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-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Buffering rolls with c-stick too good.

Forget turnaround side-b for grabbing the ledge.

Be very careful and selective with ledgehop aerials. Safely getting on stage increases your options 10 fold.

Against LHDL, you can space a tipper dtilt on him just before he lands, which can often get you a free edgeguard. You can also jump over them if you read it and fair him. If you get hit with a laser in the air, fair immediately.
 
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Rachman

be water my friend
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Mar 22, 2015
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what degree DI leads to someone landing the furthest away from a dthrow? down and away/315 degree? If you can buffer roll by 3 frames with control stick it would theoretically get out of any shield pressure option including frame perfect unstaled fox doubleshine iirc @ -ACE- -ACE- without the need for shield di. Could be wrong, haven't done the math for that in awhile
 
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tauKhan

Smash Lord
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Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,348
If you can buffer roll by 3 frames with control stick it would theoretically get out of any shield pressure option including frame perfect unstaled fox doubleshine iirc @ -ACE- -ACE- without the need for shield di. Could be wrong, haven't done the math for that in awhile
Not true. Besides if you're in shield already, like when you're shield pressured, you can just hold c-stick to get the roll fp easier. C-sticking rolls/spotdodges is only slower if you aren't in shield to begin with, since it only works when shielding.

Buffered roll escapes fp double shine by 2 frames iirc.
It's the other way around actually, foxes double shine has a 2 frame window to land on a buffered roll, except jigglypuffs forward roll which beats even that with frame 2 intangibility. Falco needs to be frame perfect to catch a buffered roll. Spotdodge evades double shine.
 
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Bones0

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Not true. Besides if you're in shield already, like when you're shield pressured, you can just hold c-stick to get the roll fp easier. C-sticking rolls/spotdodges is only slower if you aren't in shield to begin with, since it only works when shielding.
How is using the C-stick ever slower? You have to shield (or dash) for at least a frame before rolling even if you use the control stick.
 

Rachman

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I always believed buffering to be 1 frame slower than frame perfect. Like, the moment you were out of shield stun it was input so that on the next frame you would begin rolling. Is this 100% incorrect?
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
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Feb 9, 2014
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How is using the C-stick ever slower? You have to shield (or dash) for at least a frame before rolling even if you use the control stick.
Thank you, I didn't even know that. Rolling seems to only be possible when shielding, or during the first frames of forward dash. C-sticking roll is indeed always optimal it seems.

You can however spotdodge in some action states without shielding. In wait you can spotdodge, but in the initial crouch you can't, so out of wait you have to be fp to get spot dodge out without shield. After lags you can utilize the control stick buffer to get fp spotdodges: for example if you hold shield, and press down 2 frames before tech in place ends, you'll spotdodge without shield.

You can't spotdodge straight out of dash, which is important for shai dropping out of dash, because that makes it 2 frame window instead of fp.

I always believed buffering to be 1 frame slower than frame perfect. Like, the moment you were out of shield stun it was input so that on the next frame you would begin rolling. Is this 100% incorrect?
Buffering input in melee usually means that the input is active for some period, and you'll perform the action as soon as you're able to. There's is a dj buffer out of some type of hitstun which with the dj doesn't happen immediately after stun, but that's the only exception I know of. But holding c-stick to side in shield causes you to roll, so your're roll input is active all the time during shieldstun and after, and you'll roll as soon as the stun ends.
 

Tee ay eye

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@ Kadano Kadano does marth have anything that you would consider useful off first-hit nair? i'm a bit more interested in how it could be used in combos vs air opponents, but i'm also a little curious about if it can be useful vs shielding/grounded enemies

EDIT:

another question i have: how many frames of ledge occupation do all the standard getup options have? above and below 100%. does it vary between character? if so, how much?
 
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Bones0

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@ Kadano Kadano does marth have anything that you would consider useful off first-hit nair? i'm a bit more interested in how it could be used in combos vs air opponents, but i'm also a little curious about if it can be useful vs shielding/grounded enemies

EDIT:

another question i have: how many frames of ledge occupation do all the standard getup options have? above and below 100%. does it vary between character? if so, how much?
Single hit nair can help lead into a KO up-B. I'd never use it on grounded opponents though. It's easily CCed and shield grabbed, and even if you space it, you are probably better off just empty landing because it gives them a chance to DI in closer (on hit and on shield).
 

Wafflesaurus

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@ Kadano Kadano does marth have anything that you would consider useful off first-hit nair? i'm a bit more interested in how it could be used in combos vs air opponents, but i'm also a little curious about if it can be useful vs shielding/grounded enemies

EDIT:

another question i have: how many frames of ledge occupation do all the standard getup options have? above and below 100%. does it vary between character? if so, how much?
http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/frames.html
Frame data for ledge options
 

Wafflesaurus

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Those charts do not mention ledge occupancy.
I've always thought you hold the ledge for the whole duration of roll, attack and stand but I might be wrong (no idea of how long you hold on when jumping)
It'd be interesting to know how it works if it's not like that. If I had a second controller I would test it but I currently don't have any.
 

Kadano

Magical Express
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@ Kadano Kadano does marth have anything that you would consider useful off first-hit nair? i'm a bit more interested in how it could be used in combos vs air opponents, but i'm also a little curious about if it can be useful vs shielding/grounded enemies
I once looked into it and thought that first-hit nair is too gimmicky and rather useless. Late fair is much better imho. Didn’t give it much time though.

another question i have: how many frames of ledge occupation do all the standard getup options have? above and below 100%. does it vary between character? if so, how much?
Those charts do not mention ledge occupancy.
I've always thought you hold the ledge for the whole duration of roll, attack and stand but I might be wrong (no idea of how long you hold on when jumping)
It'd be interesting to know how it works if it's not like that. If I had a second controller I would test it but I currently don't have any.
Sigh.
Post #1 → Ledge occupation.
 

Acryte

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@ Kadano Kadano does marth have anything that you would consider useful off first-hit nair? i'm a bit more interested in how it could be used in combos vs air opponents, but i'm also a little curious about if it can be useful vs shielding/grounded enemies

EDIT:

another question i have: how many frames of ledge occupation do all the standard getup options have? above and below 100%. does it vary between character? if so, how much?
The hitbox behind marth is higher and can be used to jab reset on plats...
 

P D

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Thanks again for this thread. absolutely love it and appreciate your hard work.

I'm very curious on the marth v falco match up. I'm curious on the best way to deal with campy falco lasers. specifially the frame windows to Wavedash OoS. and also what's the best follow up on sheild for marth when he lands a fair on falco's sheild. Also best angles to di off of a shine to prevent or mix up follow up
 

AlexThe13th

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Feb 4, 2015
Messages
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@ Kadano Kadano , Let's say you do an unsafe aerial on someone's shield or get a weak/strong hit crouch canceled. I've noticed when playing that if you weak hit fair someone or they cc an aerial(below 70%ish), you can reverse up b almost immediately and get away to top platform while either hitting them/their shield. Is reverse up b a viable option after you've whiffed the spacing a fair or is running past/shielding/jumping a better option?

I know if you truly misspace an aerial and they react properly it's punishable, but what's the fastest way to escape?
 

Kadano

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Tech-chasing with Marth
General approach: forward throw → wavedash forward (45° below straight forward = SE / SW notch), check for their tech option during wavedash lag
If they don’t tech or tech in place, you just wait and react accordingly (grab for tech in place, dash JC grab for get-up roll, shieldgrab for get-up attack).
If they tech-roll, you do dash JC-grab.
In theory, it would be better to do the longest dwd (18° below straight forward) on DI away and a shorter wavedash on DI in, but you’d need to react within 11 frames. The sources I know quote 384 ms as the expected value for visual choice reaction time, which is 23 frames. So reacting to DI away or in within 11 frames is most likely not humanly possible. Thus, I think it’s best to do an intermediate length wavedash, so you can cover both DI+techroll away and DI+techroll in, although these two options will require being very close to frame perfect with your reaction and follow-up.

Fox
#|DI|Fox’s option|Your reaction|Necessary reaction time|Input frame window
1| |No tech|Wait until Fox goes for 2/3/4/5| – | –
2| |Get-up attack|Shield grab|

(This is a work in progress right now. I still published this terrible post as-is as a placeholder so I don’t forget about completing this. There is a lot of stuff to consider that I haven’t mentioned here, so it will take many hours to even find out how to go about this. I hope I can complete this in a useful way eventually.)
 

1MachGO

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Hey Kadano, I am sorry if this has been answered before, but what are the minimum frames of vulnerability Marth has during ledge hop regrab? He has a low DJ height and can fastfall before his intangibility from ledge grab runs out so I imagine he is very close to having a legit ledgehop stall. What is the optimal timing to minimize vulnerability? Is there any ECB manipulation involved?
 

Wafflesaurus

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Hey Kadano, I am sorry if this has been answered before, but what are the minimum frames of vulnerability Marth has during ledge hop regrab? He has a low DJ height and can fastfall before his intangibility from ledge grab runs out so I imagine he is very close to having a legit ledgehop stall. What is the optimal timing to minimize vulnerability? Is there any ECB manipulation involved?
post #25 (page 1). No precise inputs tho but you can test them out yourself on 20XX if you want or just try to get a feeling for it. Drop as low as you can and try to regrab. Be sure to let go of the ledge on the first frame possible (use frame counter on 20xx to make sure you are doing it right)
 
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BTmoney

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does anyone understand the mechanic behind getting a full/strong backwards dash after executing a throw? so dashing backwards after a u-throw when chain grabbing for example. I get so many turn arounds into nothing or my character will dash much slower than it normally would when dashing forwards

ever since I got a new controller getting a clean dash back after an action is almost impossible (I imagine the analog stick's increased stiffness is just not working in favor of the mechanic)
 
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