Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

[AustinRC]

@ Kadano are there any ways in which marth can SDI fox's uair and still be facing him when he starts falling? One of the ways Marth gets out of juggles is by fairing, I keep getting my back turned while I'm in the air and it's such a horrible position for me to be in.

 

[Kadano]

@ Kadano are there any ways in which marth can SDI fox's uair and still be facing him when he starts falling? One of the ways Marth gets out of juggles is by fairing, I keep getting my back turned while I'm in the air and it's such a horrible position for me to be in.

Yes, by SDI’ing towards the direction you are compared to Fox. It’s usually hard to tell whether that is left or right because Fox is so close to Marth and Marth spreads all his limbs around him.

 

[1MachGO]

Is it possible to SDI out of uair with only one input if you fail to DI uthrow?

 

[Kadano]

Is it possible to SDI out of uair with only one input if you fail to DI uthrow?

Sometimes, if Fox doesn’t space (near-)perfectly.

 

[Kadano]

I wrote a long post on smash turns and back dashes on Melee It On Me, hopefully this explains everything there is to it understandably: www.meleeitonme.com/back-dashes-smash-turns/

 

[PoppaSquat]

So I understand that crouching gives marth a few frames of leniency in power shielding Falco's lasers, but does marth's dash animation also provide that extra leniency?

 

[Lawn Chair]

So I understand that crouching gives marth a few frames of leniency in power shielding Falco's lasers, but does marth's dash animation also provide that extra leniency?

Yes

 

[PoppaSquat]

Yes

^

 

[Lawn Chair]

^

^

 

[Kadano]

Stop ****posting in my thread.

 

[Lawn Chair]

Stop ****posting in my thread.

He started it dude

 

[Kadano]

He started it dude

Then show that you’re better than that by not doing the same.

So I understand that crouching gives marth a few frames of leniency in power shielding Falco's lasers, but does marth's dash animation also provide that extra leniency?

Depends. Searching this thread for “dash powershield” and author=Kadano yields this post: http://smashboards.com/posts/16812262

 

[DeadPigeon]

At very low damage you can f-throw into f-throw, and a little higher than that it forces a tech at least. It still gives advantage. I don't think up-throw is useless, I just don't use it so that's why I said I felt it's a waste.

It’s not guaranteed. The thrown Marth simply needs to hold down and away the entire time – this will make perfect dash- or JC-grab (both are equally good here) whiff by one frame as it will “buffer” a Turn that moves him out of reach.
The tech force, however, is really interesting. I suspected for a long time that Marth has an infinite techchase against himself with fthrow, and it seems this is true. It’s just a little hard for me to write about it as techchasing depends so much on reaction times, and I still haven’t found a reliable source on what kind of values I should assume.
In short, you can punish tech in place, no tech and techroll behind all with (shield)grab on reaction and techroll away with wavedash tipper fsmash.

I tested this a bit. If your opponent simply holds away to buffer a tilt turn, you can delay the grab to catch the turn animation. This forces your opponent to hit a two frame window to smash turn to avoid the delayed grab (and the normally timed grab). If your opponent can't hit this window, it's essentially a mix up between hold away (which beats normal grab) and buffer spot dodge (which beats delayed grab).

Kadano, can you confirm this is a true mixup at 0%? If you'd like, I can give you the tas inputs I was using.

 

[Nicholas1024]

What %'s does Marth's tipper down smash kill Sheik at on each stage? (I'm trying to figure out at what %'s I should start going for the F-throw tipper down smash setup.)

 

[Bones0]

What %'s does Marth's tipper down smash kill Sheik at on each stage? (I'm trying to figure out at what %'s I should start going for the F-throw tipper down smash setup.)

She can DI it well enough to die off the side so it's going to be dependent on your positioning. The vertical KO %s you can easily test yourself anyway...

 

[Kadano]

What %'s does Marth's tipper down smash kill Sheik at on each stage? (I'm trying to figure out at what %'s I should start going for the F-throw tipper down smash setup.)

She can DI it well enough to die off the side so it's going to be dependent on your positioning. The vertical KO %s you can easily test yourself anyway...

It should be possible to write a program that calculates kill percent from character, attack, position and staling though, giving multiple results for different DI angles each. I guess the community would prefer it to be hosted online nowadays, ideally with linkable URLs. I’ll try to get into this, but it will take a while since I’m still a coding noob.

 

[FlamingForce]

Is there any difference between letting go of the ledge by pressing down on the control stick vs pressing away from the ledge? (Apart from the instant fastfall you get when pressing down)

 

[dude it's raining]

It should be possible to write a program that calculates kill percent from character, attack, position and staling though, giving multiple results for different DI angles each. I guess the community would prefer it to be hosted online nowadays, ideally with linkable URLs. I’ll try to get into this, but it will take a while since I’m still a coding noob.

I'm working on an excel formula that finds the displacement over time by adding up the x/y components of each frame, with gravity taken into account, but the numbers aren't adding up for me.

 

[Sycorax]

Is there any difference between letting go of the ledge by pressing down on the control stick vs pressing away from the ledge? (Apart from the instant fastfall you get when pressing down)

no

 

[Pauer]

Kadano [PAL, sheik vs marth]
I was playing against giselher(local marth) today and told him that when I went for a down throw at low percent with sheik, you would DI in a way that I had to dash->JC grab to catch you with a regrab for which you would hit me with up-b. But he couldn't quite figure it out.
Can you tell me what DI you used to set the up-b hit up and at which percent you'd do it? Or is it even supposed to work if sheik goes for a regrab?
Also, if it works at certain percent, how good of an option do you think it is?

 

[Kadano]

Kadano [PAL, sheik vs marth]
I was playing against giselher(local marth) today and told him that when I went for a down throw at low percent with sheik, you would DI in a way that I had to dash->JC grab to catch you with a regrab for which you would hit me with up-b. But he couldn't quite figure it out.
Can you tell me what DI you used to set the up-b hit up and at which percent you'd do it? Or is it even supposed to work if sheik goes for a regrab?
Also, if it works at certain percent, how good of an option do you think it is?

I do stuff like that by feel. Iirc I DI in and up and then mash up-B. From, like, 0-ish to 20-ish maybe? Not sure, never tested it (no time right now, sorry).

 

[Pauer]

I do stuff like that by feel. Iirc I DI in and up and then mash up-B. From, like, 0-ish to 20-ish maybe? Not sure, never tested it (no time right now, sorry).

Hmm alright that would've been my first thought too.
I'll just test it myself when I get home today. I'm thinking either hardest DI in to be above sheik for the longest period of time or a DI that forces sheik to dash->JCgrab while being above sheik for the longest period of time.

 

[AustinRC]

So an issue Marth has is when he forces sheik to up B onto the stage and then the sheik player DI's down and tech's in place. What are some options Marth has?

 

[Kadano]

So an issue Marth has is when he forces sheik to up B onto the stage and then the sheik player DI's down and tech's in place. What are some options Marth has?

It would depend on what move Sheik teched and how much percent she has.

 

[Mc.Rad]

THANK YOU FOR THIS FOURM

 

[_trix_]

Kadano If you space marths up, perfectly, as low as you can possibly still grab the ledge from, is it possible to be still be hit by fsmash/dtilit in marth dittos?

 

[Kadano]

Kadano If you space marths up, perfectly, as low as you can possibly still grab the ledge from, is it possible to be still be hit by fsmash/dtilit in marth dittos?

It would depend on what “Marth’s up” is.

 

[Lawn Chair]

It would depend on what “Marth’s up” is.

He means up-b

 

[Kadano]

Oh, well, then yes, the Marth using up-B can always be hit. Here I show lowest wallhug up-B getting hit by fsmash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkdPVUlrSOo&t=5m

And later at 15:00 I also talk about horizontally sweetspotted up-Bs which are also relevant.

 

[1MachGO]

Can any other characters punish Marth's up b sweetspot from on stage? I suppose Doc could with cape but would something like Falco's dsmash work without getting hit by Marth's sword?

 

[Kadano]

Can any other characters punish Marth's up b sweetspot from on stage? I suppose Doc could with cape but would something like Falco's dsmash work without getting hit by Marth's sword?

Falco’s dsmash hits purely vertical sweetspots. If Marth also sweetspots horizontally, he does not get hit.
I think I wrote about this a bit more in-detail somewhere in this thread, but I forgot to include it in the index I guess.

 

[Hunybear]

What is the state after an air dodge or up be called when you can't do any moves?

 

[Kadano]

What is the state after an air dodge or up be called when you can't do any moves?

FallSpecial.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Would you happen to know shield damage values for Marth's normals? In particular, his aerials and dtilt.

 

[Kadano]

Would you happen to know shield damage values for Marth's normals? In particular, his aerials and dtilt.

They are found in / can be calculated with the tools in the hitbox sheet linked within the OP.

 

[OnStrings]

I posted this in another thread earlier, but I figured I'd ask here as well.

I've been trying to work on the marth killer in marth dittos, and so far I haven't been completely successful. Let's say I'm edge guarding a marth on the right side of the stage. I roll to the right ledge and light shield. If they up B early and hit the outside/right side of my shield, angling completely away (in this scenario, angling right) or angling away and down completes the marth killer and they die.

However, I've found that if they dip low and hug the wall (on stages like FD or yoshis), they hit the inside/left side of my shield instead, and angling my shield away doesn't push me to the ledge for some reason. Angling down and away (in the previous scenario, down and right) also doesn't work, I'll either be pushed away from the ledge towards the stage (and I don't know why, because I'm holding away), or I start tumbling off the edge, and in tumble animation I can't grab the ledge. (Basically, my marth killer puts me in a horrible position while they stay safe) I know people say that it doesn't matter which side of the shield you get hit on, but for some reason it seems to affect me. Which way should I be angling my shield? Does this depend on where they hit my shield? And should I be letting go of the inputs immediately after the up B connects with my shield to prevent tumbling off the stage?

 

[Bones0]

I posted this in another thread earlier, but I figured I'd ask here as well.

I've been trying to work on the marth killer in marth dittos, and so far I haven't been completely successful. Let's say I'm edge guarding a marth on the right side of the stage. I roll to the right ledge and light shield. If they up B early and hit the outside/right side of my shield, angling completely away (in this scenario, angling right) or angling away and down completes the marth killer and they die.

However, I've found that if they dip low and hug the wall (on stages like FD or yoshis), they hit the inside/left side of my shield instead, and angling my shield away doesn't push me to the ledge for some reason. Angling down and away (in the previous scenario, down and right) also doesn't work, I'll either be pushed away from the ledge towards the stage (and I don't know why, because I'm holding away), or I start tumbling off the edge, and in tumble animation I can't grab the ledge. (Basically, my marth killer puts me in a horrible position while they stay safe) I know people say that it doesn't matter which side of the shield you get hit on, but for some reason it seems to affect me. Which way should I be angling my shield? Does this depend on where they hit my shield? And should I be letting go of the inputs immediately after the up B connects with my shield to prevent tumbling off the stage?

I'm not sure what you believe about the Marth killer since you had a few contradicting statements, but I'll just clear some stuff up:
- The direction of your shield pushback is determined by where the opponent's base position star (BPS) is in relation to yours (i.e. if they are to the right of you, you will get pushed left). If their BPS is somehow further in-stage than yours when they hit your shield, it would only make you go into missfoot sooner.
- The whole purpose of holding towards the ledge is to shield ASDI into the missfoot animation, from which you will grab the ledge. This sounds like what you are confusing with tumble, but you can grab the ledge in either animation.
- Holding down and away while shielding does absolutely nothing for you; you can't shield DI on the vertical axis, and holding down won't trigger a FF unless you time it after going airborne (including the missfoot animation).


If you hold towards the ledge properly but still fail to shieldhog a Marth, the only explanations I can think of are:
- You're not FFing onto the ledge (necessary for floatier characters, which I am pretty sure includes Marth).
- You're holding down for too long after (or while attempting to) FF.
- Your character's traction is too low, resulting in enough shield pushback that you cannot ASDI far enough to get into missfoot. I don't think this is ever the case for Marth.
- Your charactet's missfoot animation gets weird and causes them to instantly land back on the stage. I know this is a consistent issue for Zelda shieldhogging on Yoshi's.
- You're playing Yoshi.

 

[Hunybear]

I'm not sure what you believe about the Marth killer since you had a few contradicting statements, but I'll just clear some stuff up:
- The direction of your shield pushback is determined by where the opponent's base position star (BPS) is in relation to yours (i.e. if they are to the right of you, you will get pushed left). If their BPS is somehow further in-stage than yours when they hit your shield, it would only make you go into missfoot sooner.
- The whole purpose of holding towards the ledge is to shield ASDI into the missfoot animation, from which you will grab the ledge. This sounds like what you are confusing with tumble, but you can grab the ledge in either animation.
- Holding down and away while shielding does absolutely nothing for you; you can't shield DI on the vertical axis, and holding down won't trigger a FF unless you time it after going airborne (including the missfoot animation).


If you hold towards the ledge properly but still fail to shieldhog a Marth, the only explanations I can think of are:
- You're not FFing onto the ledge (necessary for floatier characters, which I am pretty sure includes Marth).
- You're holding down for too long after (or while attempting to) FF.
- Your character's traction is too low, resulting in enough shield pushback that you cannot ASDI far enough to get into missfoot. I don't think this is ever the case for Marth.
- Your charactet's missfoot animation gets weird and causes them to instantly land back on the stage. I know this is a consistent issue for Zelda shieldhogging on Yoshi's.
- You're playing Yoshi.

what is missfoot? From context I believe its when u slide of the edge while in shield, but I wanna be sure.

 

[Bones0]

what is missfoot? From context I believe its when u slide of the edge while in shield, but I wanna be sure.

Yeah, that's exactly it.

 

[Hunybear]

Yeah, that's exactly it.

How is that state different from tumble?