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Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application
- Thread starter Kadano
- Start date
It's very doable, with practice. You don't get as much damage off it as sheik and your jab reset isn't as good, but its still guaranteed. I think a huge bonus to marth's fthrow game that people don't talk about is that that his upthrow and fthrow are unreactable, so if you're tech chasing consistently you can often learn their DI habits...which makes upthrow more profitable. For example, you're gonna combo falcon way better off DI forward on your upthrow than behind you, so you can fthrow tech chase (Which is hardest if they DI away, since they'll land further). If they don't DI away, the tech chase should be pretty easy; if they do, you can start going for big combos off the upthrow if you're not confident on the tech chasing 100%.
I don't really have a way to test frame data like Kadano, but I can probably talk about a lot of marth punishment stuff from raw experience, if anyone is interested >_>
I don't really have a way to test frame data like Kadano, but I can probably talk about a lot of marth punishment stuff from raw experience, if anyone is interested >_>
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Interesting, thanks for the response. I have a measurably-sub-par reaction speed, so most of my tech chasing comes primarily from reads (I can't tech chase with Sheik to save my life, haha). That DI trap is a neat idea though. I use fthrow so little it's almost criminal, so I've been trying to work it into my game more.
Edit: While on the subject, does anyone have any advice for training reaction speed? I'm starting to get better at reacting to things like mixed techs if I'm consciously looking for them, so I know it's possible to speed myself up, but typical "reaction speed" games don't seem to do the trick for Melee
Edit: While on the subject, does anyone have any advice for training reaction speed? I'm starting to get better at reacting to things like mixed techs if I'm consciously looking for them, so I know it's possible to speed myself up, but typical "reaction speed" games don't seem to do the trick for Melee
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I can make a more detailed post at a later time (I'm exhausted right now >_>) but there are two main things to be aware of when tech chasing:
1) Learning the proper timing/positioning/technique
2) Biasing your reaction time
Both are equally important, and that misunderstanding is probably why most people aren't very good at tech chasing and reaction based things in general. As far as learning the proper technique, what I mean is deciding things like "Do I WD towards the spot he lands, or do I run towards it? Where do I want to end up relative to where he lands? How does the stage help me account for his tech options?" etc. For example, when tech chasing falcon off f-throw, I usually WD towards the spot he lands. I don't do this against fox or falco.
Another timing that's important to understand is how to time your run towards their landing so that AS you arrive, you have a sufficient window to react to tech in place, but you're still in your initial dash so you can continue running or change directions. What I mean by this is that...let's say that you personally are able to react to a tech in place within 15 frames. This means you need to time your run so that by the time you actually react to the tech in place, you're at a spacing where you can grab them; the thing is, you need to find a timing for your run that ALSO allows you to continue running if you react to them teching away, as well as turn back towards the middle if they tech towards you. This is why tech chasing is harder if they land further away from you, and why you need to use a different technique (run towards, WD in place, or run and WD towards their landing, depending on the character etc) for each different spacing and opposing character.
As far as 1 goes, that's fairly easy to explain. Essentially, its just like edgeguarding a space animal. Side-b is hard to react to, up-b is easy to react to, so what do we do? We focus all our attention on looking for them to side-b, to make SURE we can react in time. This is biasing your reaction time. It will cause you to have a delayed reaction to their up-b, but that is usually okay since you are able to cover their options once they start charging the up-b. In the case of tech chasing, you want to focus your efforts on reacting to tech in place. Bias your reactions towards that, and only once you realize "oh wait, they didn't tech in place" do you try to react to the other options. This works because reacting to tech rolls is obviously very easy, if that's all you have to look for. The degree to which you have to bias your reaction time will depend on your personal reactions, as well as how early you're able to determine the difference between the various techs, visually.
If any of this doesn't make sense, or you want me to elaborate, just ask
1) Learning the proper timing/positioning/technique
2) Biasing your reaction time
Both are equally important, and that misunderstanding is probably why most people aren't very good at tech chasing and reaction based things in general. As far as learning the proper technique, what I mean is deciding things like "Do I WD towards the spot he lands, or do I run towards it? Where do I want to end up relative to where he lands? How does the stage help me account for his tech options?" etc. For example, when tech chasing falcon off f-throw, I usually WD towards the spot he lands. I don't do this against fox or falco.
Another timing that's important to understand is how to time your run towards their landing so that AS you arrive, you have a sufficient window to react to tech in place, but you're still in your initial dash so you can continue running or change directions. What I mean by this is that...let's say that you personally are able to react to a tech in place within 15 frames. This means you need to time your run so that by the time you actually react to the tech in place, you're at a spacing where you can grab them; the thing is, you need to find a timing for your run that ALSO allows you to continue running if you react to them teching away, as well as turn back towards the middle if they tech towards you. This is why tech chasing is harder if they land further away from you, and why you need to use a different technique (run towards, WD in place, or run and WD towards their landing, depending on the character etc) for each different spacing and opposing character.
As far as 1 goes, that's fairly easy to explain. Essentially, its just like edgeguarding a space animal. Side-b is hard to react to, up-b is easy to react to, so what do we do? We focus all our attention on looking for them to side-b, to make SURE we can react in time. This is biasing your reaction time. It will cause you to have a delayed reaction to their up-b, but that is usually okay since you are able to cover their options once they start charging the up-b. In the case of tech chasing, you want to focus your efforts on reacting to tech in place. Bias your reactions towards that, and only once you realize "oh wait, they didn't tech in place" do you try to react to the other options. This works because reacting to tech rolls is obviously very easy, if that's all you have to look for. The degree to which you have to bias your reaction time will depend on your personal reactions, as well as how early you're able to determine the difference between the various techs, visually.
If any of this doesn't make sense, or you want me to elaborate, just ask
Pay a lot of attention to each character's animations. The sooner you can identify movement as a getup in place, GUA, techroll, or other option, the slower your reactions can be while still getting the punish. It's virtually impossible to react to the first frame of most tech options, but being familiar with each one's animation can make or break a tech chase. Also, make sure you aren't playing on a laggy TV because that will prevent even the most gdlk players from techchasing on reaction.
1. in the OP you cover edguards vs fox/falco side B
and you say that if you jab their high side B, they can sweetspot side B the ledge right after
what percents can they do that? and are you talking about tipper jabs or sourspot jabs?
2. if they side-B high enough to where your dtilt cannot hit them, there is NO way they can hit you crouching, correct?
3. how would ftilt work in this situation? would it cover the shorten?
4. what is the frame leniency on fox/falco's forward B sweetspot (like, for them to execute it)
5. if a person side Bs over your dtilt, do you have time to throw out 2 dtilts before you punish their landing? or do you have to make a choice between the second dtilt and punishing their sideB landing?
and you say that if you jab their high side B, they can sweetspot side B the ledge right after
what percents can they do that? and are you talking about tipper jabs or sourspot jabs?
2. if they side-B high enough to where your dtilt cannot hit them, there is NO way they can hit you crouching, correct?
3. how would ftilt work in this situation? would it cover the shorten?
4. what is the frame leniency on fox/falco's forward B sweetspot (like, for them to execute it)
5. if a person side Bs over your dtilt, do you have time to throw out 2 dtilts before you punish their landing? or do you have to make a choice between the second dtilt and punishing their sideB landing?
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^To add another question, is the different timing for shortens what makes them dodge attacks, or can Fox/Falco grab the ledge from further away? If you predict a shorten, could you simply delay your jab/dtilt and hit the best shorten sweetspot? If not, is it also impossible to jab/dtilt full-length side-Bs if they space it right?
If they were really high up i think you could but i don't think it's practical. 2 dtilts is 29 frames if you get the iasa so at the heights that people would usually side b at i don't think it would be useful. I'm also pretty positive looking at the dtilt hitbox and from experience that you can be hit out of it as it does not cover marths head completely. I would also assume that from when i discussed jump sweetspots for spacies earlier in the thread that the same relative principle would apply to side b sweetspots just at a different height. You have to hard read if they are doing the shorten sweetspot or preform perfect pivot down tilts so that you can cover every possible location fox can sweetspot. Delaying the dtilt/jab will not cover a shorten because they will snap to the ledge. If you recognize that they are going to have to use a full length side b you can position yourself so that the dtilt will cover the sweetspot.
Only with multiple shield SDI. If your ftilt is spaced perfectly, he can’t even short hop fair you before you are out of lag. So it’s perfectly safe, unless Marth does a powershield dtilt / ftilt / fsmash.
Aye, finishing the upthrow followup list is the next thing on my list (after replying to all of you). I’ll structure it as a table so that you can quickly find the best followup for every percent range / DI combination.
That’s asking pretty much. Doing the necessary testing would take 4 hours at the very least. I’d have to establish the percent and DI ranges at which Falcon can mash out of tumble so he escapes the tech chase first, then calculate hitstun for all the throws and percent ranges, then finding out the best way to close in for all the throw-percent-DI-combinations … then go into tech option frames, control Magus’ values for the first visual cue of each, determine the best reaction followup possible with “perfect” reaction times for every tech option. Then I could give you the reaction leniency for every throw-tech-option combination.
It’s on my list just after CF uthrow.
Definitely not in the way that you do the same uair / utilt timing for all of his DI options and expect it to hit on all of them. If you allow reacting to his DI as well, I suspect that there are large ranges starting at approximately 45%.
I recommend practicing with somebody who also wants to improve his reaction times. Just take turns in the relevant micro-games and try to react to his different throws / whatever as quickly as possible. Try to find out the visual cues by which you can tell what he did the earliest.
It works at least until 100% against tipper jabs. If they DI the jab properly, it probably works forever, haha.
Against sourspot jabs, Fox (and Falco most probably as well) can side-B to the ledge afterwards as well until at least 100%.
Also, it’s mostly Fox/Falco who determines whether you get the tipper or sourspot jab hitbubble, not you.
What do you mean by “hit you crouching”? You can crouch-cancel Fox’s aerial side-B until ~95% and have enough time to run up to him and grab him.
No, it won’t. It’s great against up-B, but against side-B, not so much.
“Sweetspot” is very relative. If you understand it as the lowest side-B they can do to grab the ledge, well then it’s only a 1-frame-window, of course. In that situation, Marth is in lag anyway, so it doesn’t really matter whether they sweetspot or not.
It depends. If they side-B from rather far away, you can do two dtilts and grab them afterwards while they are still in lag. If they start their side-B rather close to you, this is not possible. It’s a good idea, this might be part of the perfect edgeguarding routine.
It’s a lot more complicated than that, haha. It’s a combination of timing, spacing and Fox/Falco lifting their heads up when they side-B against the wall.
No to the first question, yes to the second. The right spacing here is not just vertical, but also horizontal, so you can simply edgehog them if they attempt this.[/quote]
Aye, finishing the upthrow followup list is the next thing on my list (after replying to all of you). I’ll structure it as a table so that you can quickly find the best followup for every percent range / DI combination.
That’s asking pretty much. Doing the necessary testing would take 4 hours at the very least. I’d have to establish the percent and DI ranges at which Falcon can mash out of tumble so he escapes the tech chase first, then calculate hitstun for all the throws and percent ranges, then finding out the best way to close in for all the throw-percent-DI-combinations … then go into tech option frames, control Magus’ values for the first visual cue of each, determine the best reaction followup possible with “perfect” reaction times for every tech option. Then I could give you the reaction leniency for every throw-tech-option combination.
It’s on my list just after CF uthrow.
Definitely not in the way that you do the same uair / utilt timing for all of his DI options and expect it to hit on all of them. If you allow reacting to his DI as well, I suspect that there are large ranges starting at approximately 45%.
While on the subject, does anyone have any advice for training reaction speed? I'm starting to get better at reacting to things like mixed techs if I'm consciously looking for them, so I know it's possible to speed myself up, but typical "reaction speed" games don't seem to do the trick for Melee
It works at least until 100% against tipper jabs. If they DI the jab properly, it probably works forever, haha.
Against sourspot jabs, Fox (and Falco most probably as well) can side-B to the ledge afterwards as well until at least 100%.
Also, it’s mostly Fox/Falco who determines whether you get the tipper or sourspot jab hitbubble, not you.
What do you mean by “hit you crouching”? You can crouch-cancel Fox’s aerial side-B until ~95% and have enough time to run up to him and grab him.
No, it won’t. It’s great against up-B, but against side-B, not so much.
“Sweetspot” is very relative. If you understand it as the lowest side-B they can do to grab the ledge, well then it’s only a 1-frame-window, of course. In that situation, Marth is in lag anyway, so it doesn’t really matter whether they sweetspot or not.
It depends. If they side-B from rather far away, you can do two dtilts and grab them afterwards while they are still in lag. If they start their side-B rather close to you, this is not possible. It’s a good idea, this might be part of the perfect edgeguarding routine.
It’s a lot more complicated than that, haha. It’s a combination of timing, spacing and Fox/Falco lifting their heads up when they side-B against the wall.
No to the first question, yes to the second. The right spacing here is not just vertical, but also horizontal, so you can simply edgehog them if they attempt this.[/quote]
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1. does marth have any true uthrow (or other throws, i guess) combos on peach,. ganon, and samus, or are they too heavy and you need to just opt for pseudo-combos?
2. when i asked if they could "hit you crouching," let me rephrase
if your opponent side Bs high enough to avoid your dtilt
will their side B always miss you (while you are crouching for your dtilt)? in other words, are there any side B heights where they can both go over your dtilt and hit you?
3. since i didn't define sweetspot very well when i first asked... what is the frame leniency on fox and falco to "sweetspot" their side B low enough to where your lowest reaching hitbox on-stage will miss? (what is marth's lowest-reaching on-stage option? is it shffl dair?)
4. if they side B over your dtilt, could you possibly react to the side B height, steal the ledge (to deny the shorten) and then wavedash onstage and cover their landing?
2. when i asked if they could "hit you crouching," let me rephrase
if your opponent side Bs high enough to avoid your dtilt
will their side B always miss you (while you are crouching for your dtilt)? in other words, are there any side B heights where they can both go over your dtilt and hit you?
3. since i didn't define sweetspot very well when i first asked... what is the frame leniency on fox and falco to "sweetspot" their side B low enough to where your lowest reaching hitbox on-stage will miss? (what is marth's lowest-reaching on-stage option? is it shffl dair?)
4. if they side B over your dtilt, could you possibly react to the side B height, steal the ledge (to deny the shorten) and then wavedash onstage and cover their landing?
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18%-26%
Here, you will only miss one or two frames to bring out side-B in time. If he opts for no DI, it will hit him regardless of whether he tries to jump out or not. If he DI’s left or right, it will whiff.
If you happen to land the first hit, you can follow up into a death combo, but he can DI out at almost every hit. I still made an animation so that you know what you can do to Falcons who don’t DI:
[Note while writing this post: This is the first gif animation that takes a really long time to encode. Maybe I should switch to a different file format, I don’t think .gif was intended for 480p60 video segments. Unfortunately, gfycat did a really bad job at downconverting h264 to .gif so far, so until smashboards’ admins decide to implement direct h264 hosting (that is, if they ever do; their reaction in the suggestion thread didn’t seem like it …), I don’t see a better choice.
This .gif is 25MB btw]
If he DI’s in the direction you are facing, you can tipper utilt him into a regrab. On DI behind you, this is not possible.
Here, you will only miss one or two frames to bring out side-B in time. If he opts for no DI, it will hit him regardless of whether he tries to jump out or not. If he DI’s left or right, it will whiff.
If you happen to land the first hit, you can follow up into a death combo, but he can DI out at almost every hit. I still made an animation so that you know what you can do to Falcons who don’t DI:
[Note while writing this post: This is the first gif animation that takes a really long time to encode. Maybe I should switch to a different file format, I don’t think .gif was intended for 480p60 video segments. Unfortunately, gfycat did a really bad job at downconverting h264 to .gif so far, so until smashboards’ admins decide to implement direct h264 hosting (that is, if they ever do; their reaction in the suggestion thread didn’t seem like it …), I don’t see a better choice.
This .gif is 25MB btw]
If he DI’s in the direction you are facing, you can tipper utilt him into a regrab. On DI behind you, this is not possible.
Question: at the later %s (say, 23-26%), can you dash to the left to make the DI out of the combo harder? Assuming the same position as the gif.
P.S. no one will DI this. Ever.
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- Aug 6, 2008
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I am not sure what throw is best for Falcon. For the very reasons of tech away, I believe Marth cannot explicitly cover tech away and tech in place on Dthrow/Fthrow/Bthrow. I feel like you could reliably cover most options near Marth and just keep Falcon pinned down at the ledge if he feels like going over there. I dunno. No one plays falcon enough against me anymore. They all moved to better characters.
I wouldn't get into the mentality of assuming one cannot react too it. Simply because I believe this is wrong for really any player that has played long enough and been uthrown/fthrown enough times. As soon as someone is in lag off a whiff someone can start DI'ing because what else are they going to do once they realize their in lag and will probably get punished. Plus, a person could randomly be DI'ing due to attempting various inputs at the time which means even if someone cannot react too it it does not mean you will always get the same result. Or even the same result most of the time. Best to stick with methods in which you can always cover all options if you can or an option which will cover most options and leave you in a favorable position on those options you cannot cover.
Keep playing trying to cover tech options without resorting to reading. I think the only method for increasing reaction is to keep doing the same situation over and over and not some alternative method like reaction games. Avoid trying to make reads as it will destroy that practice of reacting. So, just keep playing with the mentality to react to techs despite your success or failure. There is a hierarchy for covering techs you can easily look for.
1) DI. Follow it with your gaze and see a potential landing spot.
2) Miss tech should be the easiest to spot since its so freaking incredibly slow (like a full second) and happens before anything else. Plus, I think the screen shakes a bit when they land. Or something to that effect.
3) In place tech and rolls are distinguishable since they last for about the same time, but the roll actually moves locations. I do not pay attention to animation of th character, I look for the yellow "mark" that appears when a tech occurs and the relative motion they are in when it happens. If a person techs and they do not move at all form that spot for like half a second, they teched in place.
If you do not punish someone for a missed tech, DD perhaps until they get up? I feel like Marth's attacks methods to hit someone from a missed tech are terrible. So many times I would Dtilt fox/falco at say like 60% only to get attacked randomly in lag right after. Unless you get the jab reset every other move might just be too laggy or stun time to actually do anything.
I wouldn't get into the mentality of assuming one cannot react too it. Simply because I believe this is wrong for really any player that has played long enough and been uthrown/fthrown enough times. As soon as someone is in lag off a whiff someone can start DI'ing because what else are they going to do once they realize their in lag and will probably get punished. Plus, a person could randomly be DI'ing due to attempting various inputs at the time which means even if someone cannot react too it it does not mean you will always get the same result. Or even the same result most of the time. Best to stick with methods in which you can always cover all options if you can or an option which will cover most options and leave you in a favorable position on those options you cannot cover.
Interesting, thanks for the response. I have a measurably-sub-par reaction speed, so most of my tech chasing comes primarily from reads (I can't tech chase with Sheik to save my life, haha). That DI trap is a neat idea though. I use fthrow so little it's almost criminal, so I've been trying to work it into my game more.
Edit: While on the subject, does anyone have any advice for training reaction speed? I'm starting to get better at reacting to things like mixed techs if I'm consciously looking for them, so I know it's possible to speed myself up, but typical "reaction speed" games don't seem to do the trick for Melee
Edit: While on the subject, does anyone have any advice for training reaction speed? I'm starting to get better at reacting to things like mixed techs if I'm consciously looking for them, so I know it's possible to speed myself up, but typical "reaction speed" games don't seem to do the trick for Melee
1) DI. Follow it with your gaze and see a potential landing spot.
2) Miss tech should be the easiest to spot since its so freaking incredibly slow (like a full second) and happens before anything else. Plus, I think the screen shakes a bit when they land. Or something to that effect.
3) In place tech and rolls are distinguishable since they last for about the same time, but the roll actually moves locations. I do not pay attention to animation of th character, I look for the yellow "mark" that appears when a tech occurs and the relative motion they are in when it happens. If a person techs and they do not move at all form that spot for like half a second, they teched in place.
If you do not punish someone for a missed tech, DD perhaps until they get up? I feel like Marth's attacks methods to hit someone from a missed tech are terrible. So many times I would Dtilt fox/falco at say like 60% only to get attacked randomly in lag right after. Unless you get the jab reset every other move might just be too laggy or stun time to actually do anything.
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1) Kadano has actually proven, with frame data, that it is unreactable. This isn't a baseless assumption I'm making. Fthrow vs upthrow with marth is a 50/50.
2) Even if they DI "correctly" on sheer luck, you're still fthrowing them off stage, or upthrowing them into the air. It's not like you're making a bad choice in the case that your mixup goes "wrong", so there's no issue with this really. "Oh no, I went for an upthrow on fox near the edge at 30, and he DId onto the platform instead....oh wait"
2) Even if they DI "correctly" on sheer luck, you're still fthrowing them off stage, or upthrowing them into the air. It's not like you're making a bad choice in the case that your mixup goes "wrong", so there's no issue with this really. "Oh no, I went for an upthrow on fox near the edge at 30, and he DId onto the platform instead....oh wait"
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Yeah, I worded that poorly. Allow me to reword it. I am concerned about the mentality of relying upon someone not being able to react to something. Its a much more relevant example in the case of marth dittos for someone to rely upon fthrow -> fmash. That method is in essence random and a short term gain to your performance. It will not work in all cases and therefore not something I deem one should rely upon. Uthrow and appropriate follow-up is more certain on the outcome if you play well compared to fthrow -> fsmash. Therefore, in the long term as you get better this will gain you the better results.
In case of Fthrow/Uthrow, I believe there will generally be a preferred one given the situation. But, again, I just wanted to be wary of any strategies that were basically gambling on your opponent acting in a certain way. I think one should alway minimize the opportunity for you opponent to decide how to engage with you.
In case of Fthrow/Uthrow, I believe there will generally be a preferred one given the situation. But, again, I just wanted to be wary of any strategies that were basically gambling on your opponent acting in a certain way. I think one should alway minimize the opportunity for you opponent to decide how to engage with you.
I agree that you should minimize their ability to engage with you. I also agree that you shouldn't rely on fthrow-->fsmash in marth dittos in the middle of FD.
That said, there's something to be said for an optimal mixing strategy. For example, in marth dittos ideally you want them to DI in front of you on upthrow, so you can fair. Let's say you're facing the edge and pretty close to it, and everytime you upthrow the opponent gets greedy and DIs behind you, giving you a much worse combo than if they DI'd in front (generally speaking, it will). If you just fthrow-->dair (or similar) here, it's actually a guaranteed kill.
What happens if they DI correctly? They're off stage in a marth ditto, and vulnerable to: 1) run off and follow their drop low, reverse up-b, 2) run off fair, 3) Grabbing the edge, threatening them and forcing an airdodge, etc. There are more, but those are some good ones. At certain %s, it's probably optimal to go for the fthrow-->gimp/edgeguard situation over the upthrow, even assuming they DI both of them correctly; you have such a strong situation if you understand how to execute it, and at ABSOLUTE worst you can stay on stage and retain complete stage control. Complete stage control and your opponent on the edge is arguably as good as having a marth above you, depending on the stage and his %.
Ultimately, while I am completely a fan of minimizing interaction (and that is my playstyle in every game, with every character), I don't think occasionally choosing fthrow near the edge forfeits that notion. Even not near the edge, marth theoretically has guaranteed tech chases on most of the cast. So even when you're in the middle of FD you're still going for something guaranteed and non interactive, even assuming they DI correctly for the throw you chose.
That said, there's something to be said for an optimal mixing strategy. For example, in marth dittos ideally you want them to DI in front of you on upthrow, so you can fair. Let's say you're facing the edge and pretty close to it, and everytime you upthrow the opponent gets greedy and DIs behind you, giving you a much worse combo than if they DI'd in front (generally speaking, it will). If you just fthrow-->dair (or similar) here, it's actually a guaranteed kill.
What happens if they DI correctly? They're off stage in a marth ditto, and vulnerable to: 1) run off and follow their drop low, reverse up-b, 2) run off fair, 3) Grabbing the edge, threatening them and forcing an airdodge, etc. There are more, but those are some good ones. At certain %s, it's probably optimal to go for the fthrow-->gimp/edgeguard situation over the upthrow, even assuming they DI both of them correctly; you have such a strong situation if you understand how to execute it, and at ABSOLUTE worst you can stay on stage and retain complete stage control. Complete stage control and your opponent on the edge is arguably as good as having a marth above you, depending on the stage and his %.
Ultimately, while I am completely a fan of minimizing interaction (and that is my playstyle in every game, with every character), I don't think occasionally choosing fthrow near the edge forfeits that notion. Even not near the edge, marth theoretically has guaranteed tech chases on most of the cast. So even when you're in the middle of FD you're still going for something guaranteed and non interactive, even assuming they DI correctly for the throw you chose.
Marth uthrow followups on Captain Falcon
╔══════════╤═══════════╤═══════════╗╔═════════════╤═════════════╤═════════════╤╗
║Frames of │... Damage │104W Frame ║║... Guaranteed followups on CF ......... │║
║. Hitstun │before hit │ advantage ║║.. (no DI) ..│ forward¹ DI │ backward DI │║
╟──────────┼───────────┼───────────╢╟─────────────┼─────────────┼─────────────┼╢
║...... 33 │....... −1 │....... −1 ║║.............│.............│.............│║
║...... 34 │.... 0 - 3 │........ 0 ║║.............│.............│.............│║
║...... 35 │.... 4 - 8 │........ 1 ║║.............│.............│.............│║
║...... 36 │.... 9- 12 │........ 2 ║║.............│.............│.............│║
║...... 37 │... 13- 17 │........ 3 ║║.............│.............│.............│║
║...... 38 │... 18- 21 │........ 4 ║║→B ..........│.............│.............│║
║...... 39 │... 22- 26 │........ 5 ║║→B ..........│ →B, utilt ..│←B...........│║
║...... 40 │... 27- 30 │........ 6 ║║→B, regrab ..│ →B, ut .....│←B, Tut......│║
║...... 41 │... 31- 35 │........ 7 ║║→B, r..... ..│ →B, ut,ft...│←B, Tut......│║
║...... 42 │... 36- 40 │........ 8 ║║→B........ ..│ →B, ut,ft...│←B,TDr,Tfa,ft│║
║...... 43 │... 41- 44 │........ 9 ║║→B,bsuair ...│ →B, ut,ft...│←B,TDr,Tfa,ft│║
║...... 44 │... 45- 49 │....... 10 ║║→B,bsu,ut ...│D→B, .. ft,FS│←B,TDr,Tfa,ft│║
║...... 45 │... 50- 53 │....... 11 ║║→B,bsu,ut,bFS│D→B, fa,ft ..│←B,TDr,Tfa,ft│║
║...... 46 │... 54- 58 │....... 12 ║║→B,bsu,ut,bFS│D→B,Dfa,ft,FS│←B,TDr,Tfa,ft│║
║...... 47 │... 59- 63 │....... 13 ║║→B,bsu,ut, FS│D→B,Dfuaft,FS│←B,TDr,Tfa,ft│║
║...... 48 │... 64- 67 │....... 14 ║║→B,ua, ut, FS│D→B,Dfua .,FS│D←B, Dfua, FS│║
║...... 49 │... 68- 72 │....... 15 ║║.. ua, ut,bFS│D→B,Dfua ,DFS│D←B, Dfua, FS│║
║...... 50 │... 73- 76 │....... 16 ║║.. ua, ut,PFS│D→B,Dfua ,PFS│D←B, Dfua,PFS│║
║...... 51 │... 77- 81 │....... 17 ║║.. ua, ut,PFS│D→B,Dfua ....│D←B, Dfua ...│║
║...... 52 │... 82- 85 │....... 18 ║║.. ua, ut,PFS│... Dfua ....│.... Dfua ...│║
║...... 53 │... 86- 90 │....... 19 ║║.. ua .......│... Dfua ....│.... Dfua ...│║
║...... 54 │... 91- 95 │....... 20 ║║.. ua .......│... Dfua ....│.... Dfua ...│║
║...... 55 │... 96- 99 │....... 21 ║║.. ua .......│... Dfua ....│.... Dfua ...│║
║...... 56 │.. 100-104 │....... 22 ║║.. ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 57 │...105-108 │....... 23 ║║.. ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 58 │...109-113 │....... 24 ║║.. ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 59 │...114-117 │....... 25 ║║fj ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 60 │...118-122 │....... 26 ║║fj ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 61 │...123-127 │....... 27 ║║fj ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 62 │...128-131 │....... 28 ║║fj ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 63 │...132-136 │....... 29 ║║fj ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 64 │...137-140 │....... 30 ║║fj ua .......│.............│.............│║
╚══════════╧═══════════╧═══════════╝╚═════════════╧═════════════╧═════════════╧╝
![]()
Notes:
[Because one line and thus hitbox class includes a range of 4%, these are approximations and this chart is only accurate to 3%]
[when I run out of space, I leave out commas. This still keeps the individual actions separate; they don’t get combined or anything]
T indicates turning before doing the action mentioned afterwards.
D indicates dashing before doing the action mentioned afterwards.
P indicates pivoting (dash → turn) before doing the action mentioned afterwards. For no DI, it does not matter whether you start by dashing left or by dashing right. For DI left / right, you always need to dash in the direction your victim DI’d in.
→B, ←B: Dancing Blade, the arrow indicates the necessary orientation. Depending on the victim’s DI, this can convert into subsequent ↔B slashes into a long combo. Good DI (away or behind) escapes everything beyond the first slash, though.
regrab: standing regrab for no DI, JC grab for forward / backward DI.
utilt: utilt, only mentioned when it lands a good hitbox. (For example, on no DI you can connect with it starting at 22%, but you only get the 45° knockback hitbox which has zero combo potential at low %. Things like this or jabs will be left out by me.)
fair: short hop tipper fair, good for starting combos against CF. At low %, DI away will escape most subsequent hits, though (due to his high fall acceleration).
fua: Both tipper fair and tipper uair hit.
uair: short hop uair.
bsuair: backwards short hop instant uair. This needs frame perfection at 43 frames hitstun, no DI.
FS: tipper forward smash.
bFS: Backward fsmash (in the opposite direction you are facing during the uthrow animation).
DFS: Dash fsmash, also known as small step fsmash.
ft: forward tilt.
Full jump uair might combo even longer on no DI.
Edit: I can make gfycats of some followups and link them from the table. Please state requests like this: “44HS, no DI, Dancing Blade” or “40%, backward DI, regrab”. If you want to see more – eg the longest possible string from Dancing Blade if it isn’t DIed – please be very precise about what you want to see.If you have a decent PC (2.4 GHz dual-core with dedicated graphics card or better) you can also easily test things like this by yourself using Dolphin and a hacked Melee iso.
Edit2: Link to the first post about this with additional explanations and one large .gif: http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...data-application.337035/page-16#post-16603455
Also, please don’t tell me that CF has not 3 discrete options to DI Marth’s uthrow, but more like 100. I know that, of course, but three options have been enough work for me. If CF DI’s to the left “softly” or “weak” or whatever you want to call it, your followups will be between (no DI) and (backward DI), so I hope you can come up with the options that work by yourself.
╔══════════╤═══════════╤═══════════╗╔═════════════╤═════════════╤═════════════╤╗
║Frames of │... Damage │104W Frame ║║... Guaranteed followups on CF ......... │║
║. Hitstun │before hit │ advantage ║║.. (no DI) ..│ forward¹ DI │ backward DI │║
╟──────────┼───────────┼───────────╢╟─────────────┼─────────────┼─────────────┼╢
║...... 33 │....... −1 │....... −1 ║║.............│.............│.............│║
║...... 34 │.... 0 - 3 │........ 0 ║║.............│.............│.............│║
║...... 35 │.... 4 - 8 │........ 1 ║║.............│.............│.............│║
║...... 36 │.... 9- 12 │........ 2 ║║.............│.............│.............│║
║...... 37 │... 13- 17 │........ 3 ║║.............│.............│.............│║
║...... 38 │... 18- 21 │........ 4 ║║→B ..........│.............│.............│║
║...... 39 │... 22- 26 │........ 5 ║║→B ..........│ →B, utilt ..│←B...........│║
║...... 40 │... 27- 30 │........ 6 ║║→B, regrab ..│ →B, ut .....│←B, Tut......│║
║...... 41 │... 31- 35 │........ 7 ║║→B, r..... ..│ →B, ut,ft...│←B, Tut......│║
║...... 42 │... 36- 40 │........ 8 ║║→B........ ..│ →B, ut,ft...│←B,TDr,Tfa,ft│║
║...... 43 │... 41- 44 │........ 9 ║║→B,bsuair ...│ →B, ut,ft...│←B,TDr,Tfa,ft│║
║...... 44 │... 45- 49 │....... 10 ║║→B,bsu,ut ...│D→B, .. ft,FS│←B,TDr,Tfa,ft│║
║...... 45 │... 50- 53 │....... 11 ║║→B,bsu,ut,bFS│D→B, fa,ft ..│←B,TDr,Tfa,ft│║
║...... 46 │... 54- 58 │....... 12 ║║→B,bsu,ut,bFS│D→B,Dfa,ft,FS│←B,TDr,Tfa,ft│║
║...... 47 │... 59- 63 │....... 13 ║║→B,bsu,ut, FS│D→B,Dfuaft,FS│←B,TDr,Tfa,ft│║
║...... 48 │... 64- 67 │....... 14 ║║→B,ua, ut, FS│D→B,Dfua .,FS│D←B, Dfua, FS│║
║...... 49 │... 68- 72 │....... 15 ║║.. ua, ut,bFS│D→B,Dfua ,DFS│D←B, Dfua, FS│║
║...... 50 │... 73- 76 │....... 16 ║║.. ua, ut,PFS│D→B,Dfua ,PFS│D←B, Dfua,PFS│║
║...... 51 │... 77- 81 │....... 17 ║║.. ua, ut,PFS│D→B,Dfua ....│D←B, Dfua ...│║
║...... 52 │... 82- 85 │....... 18 ║║.. ua, ut,PFS│... Dfua ....│.... Dfua ...│║
║...... 53 │... 86- 90 │....... 19 ║║.. ua .......│... Dfua ....│.... Dfua ...│║
║...... 54 │... 91- 95 │....... 20 ║║.. ua .......│... Dfua ....│.... Dfua ...│║
║...... 55 │... 96- 99 │....... 21 ║║.. ua .......│... Dfua ....│.... Dfua ...│║
║...... 56 │.. 100-104 │....... 22 ║║.. ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 57 │...105-108 │....... 23 ║║.. ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 58 │...109-113 │....... 24 ║║.. ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 59 │...114-117 │....... 25 ║║fj ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 60 │...118-122 │....... 26 ║║fj ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 61 │...123-127 │....... 27 ║║fj ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 62 │...128-131 │....... 28 ║║fj ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 63 │...132-136 │....... 29 ║║fj ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 64 │...137-140 │....... 30 ║║fj ua .......│.............│.............│║
╚══════════╧═══════════╧═══════════╝╚═════════════╧═════════════╧═════════════╧╝
Notes:
[Because one line and thus hitbox class includes a range of 4%, these are approximations and this chart is only accurate to 3%]
[when I run out of space, I leave out commas. This still keeps the individual actions separate; they don’t get combined or anything]
T indicates turning before doing the action mentioned afterwards.
D indicates dashing before doing the action mentioned afterwards.
P indicates pivoting (dash → turn) before doing the action mentioned afterwards. For no DI, it does not matter whether you start by dashing left or by dashing right. For DI left / right, you always need to dash in the direction your victim DI’d in.
→B, ←B: Dancing Blade, the arrow indicates the necessary orientation. Depending on the victim’s DI, this can convert into subsequent ↔B slashes into a long combo. Good DI (away or behind) escapes everything beyond the first slash, though.
regrab: standing regrab for no DI, JC grab for forward / backward DI.
utilt: utilt, only mentioned when it lands a good hitbox. (For example, on no DI you can connect with it starting at 22%, but you only get the 45° knockback hitbox which has zero combo potential at low %. Things like this or jabs will be left out by me.)
fair: short hop tipper fair, good for starting combos against CF. At low %, DI away will escape most subsequent hits, though (due to his high fall acceleration).
fua: Both tipper fair and tipper uair hit.
uair: short hop uair.
bsuair: backwards short hop instant uair. This needs frame perfection at 43 frames hitstun, no DI.
FS: tipper forward smash.
bFS: Backward fsmash (in the opposite direction you are facing during the uthrow animation).
DFS: Dash fsmash, also known as small step fsmash.
ft: forward tilt.
Full jump uair might combo even longer on no DI.
Edit: I can make gfycats of some followups and link them from the table. Please state requests like this: “44HS, no DI, Dancing Blade” or “40%, backward DI, regrab”. If you want to see more – eg the longest possible string from Dancing Blade if it isn’t DIed – please be very precise about what you want to see.If you have a decent PC (2.4 GHz dual-core with dedicated graphics card or better) you can also easily test things like this by yourself using Dolphin and a hacked Melee iso.
Edit2: Link to the first post about this with additional explanations and one large .gif: http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...data-application.337035/page-16#post-16603455
Also, please don’t tell me that CF has not 3 discrete options to DI Marth’s uthrow, but more like 100. I know that, of course, but three options have been enough work for me. If CF DI’s to the left “softly” or “weak” or whatever you want to call it, your followups will be between (no DI) and (backward DI), so I hope you can come up with the options that work by yourself.
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Just to be clear, in the table it says "Guaranteed". Does that mean there's just no effective option? Are there effective options against *some* of these, but maybe they're rare enough/specific enough that they're not worth mentioning?
Also, can you describe at all in general terms how good you have to be at the timing for each of these? Are there general windows of frame perfection (within 2-3 frames, for example) for various % windows, or is it so variable that it's hard to make any generalizations?
Thanks a bunch, this is awesome!
Also, can you describe at all in general terms how good you have to be at the timing for each of these? Are there general windows of frame perfection (within 2-3 frames, for example) for various % windows, or is it so variable that it's hard to make any generalizations?
Thanks a bunch, this is awesome!
All follow-ups I mentioned are inescapable. Captain Falcon can never jump out if the follow-up is executed perfectly. Most are true combos, some (for example, side-B on 38-39 hitstun) are frame traps and have Captain Falcon out of hitstun for one or two frames, but regardless of what he does during these frames, the attack will hit anyway.
In general, the first row a follow-up appears in will require frame perfection. The second row will have 1 frame leniency, the third two, etc.
Some follow-ups need to be delayed slightly at higher percent (for example, tipper forward smash at 49 frames hitstun and no DI) to make up for the higher knockback. They are still guaranteed, though.
In general, the first row a follow-up appears in will require frame perfection. The second row will have 1 frame leniency, the third two, etc.
Some follow-ups need to be delayed slightly at higher percent (for example, tipper forward smash at 49 frames hitstun and no DI) to make up for the higher knockback. They are still guaranteed, though.
I'm not sure exactly how to word this, but basically vs Jiggs I go back and forth based on to even attempt to grab or not because sometimes the dash grab grabs her crouching and then against very specific players(hbox), it seems to be 50% of them time. To be fair I'm not as in practice vs jiggs as I once was but I'm still interested if there are times where you literally can't grab her or if I suck.
Sorry for double post, just realized I needed some clarifications:
--I do the short hop backwards upair on no DI on fastfallers but it feels like if they DI hard away in the direction marth is facing, you can't get a followup a lot of the time, especially since I'm still drifting backwards. If I drift forward again immediately after the upair hits, can I followup on correct DI?
--Did you leave out the "T" on all the Dfua just for simplicity's sake on the DI behind?
--Does "P" always mean dash in the direction that falcon DIs (or in the direction marth is facing, in the case of no DI)?
--Isn't T technically different from a small step fsmash? Since small step is in the direction you're facing, but "T" means turn to face the other way? I got a bit confused with this. Unless you can small step backwards???
--Are the T FS combos similar to how you can take a step forward against fox/falco before fsmashing the opposite direction that you took the step (that's how i always do it, at least)? Or are you actually specifically turning to face backwards (usually I take a step forwards, with spacies)?
--What is DFS? If anything, DFS sounds more like a small step fsmash than TFS.
I don't even know what I'm asking anymore xD. I guess I'm just a bit confused about the details of what's going on; I feel that if I actually played someone, it would all make sense to me, but just from a reader's perspective I got a bit lost.
Edit: There are definitely frames where you can't grab crouching jiggs.
--I do the short hop backwards upair on no DI on fastfallers but it feels like if they DI hard away in the direction marth is facing, you can't get a followup a lot of the time, especially since I'm still drifting backwards. If I drift forward again immediately after the upair hits, can I followup on correct DI?
--Did you leave out the "T" on all the Dfua just for simplicity's sake on the DI behind?
--Does "P" always mean dash in the direction that falcon DIs (or in the direction marth is facing, in the case of no DI)?
--Isn't T technically different from a small step fsmash? Since small step is in the direction you're facing, but "T" means turn to face the other way? I got a bit confused with this. Unless you can small step backwards???
--Are the T FS combos similar to how you can take a step forward against fox/falco before fsmashing the opposite direction that you took the step (that's how i always do it, at least)? Or are you actually specifically turning to face backwards (usually I take a step forwards, with spacies)?
--What is DFS? If anything, DFS sounds more like a small step fsmash than TFS.
I don't even know what I'm asking anymore xD. I guess I'm just a bit confused about the details of what's going on; I feel that if I actually played someone, it would all make sense to me, but just from a reader's perspective I got a bit lost.
Edit: There are definitely frames where you can't grab crouching jiggs.
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For uthrow, no way. If they DI your fthrow in, you can fair them. For Ganon, fsmash connects as well.
Dthrow is laggier, so there are no follow-ups. Thus, you also don’t have proper frame traps. If they hold down and away, you have no true combo follow-up.
No, they can’t. Let me quote myself: “Also, because your hurtboxes are so low during dtilt, Fox’ illusion will never hit you.”
Zero. Choosing the perfect vertical spacing that escapes Marth’s dtilt is a 1-frame-window. Further reading:
Against spacies’ low side-B: http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...-data-application.337035/page-6#post-16027996
High side-B, dtilt illustrations, edgeguarding with slopes: http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...-data-application.337035/page-6#post-16035662
http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...-data-application.337035/page-8#post-16067704
No way, sorry.
I analyzed this situation thoroughly in this post: http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...-data-application.337035/page-5#post-15941634
I guess I should integrate it into the op. Although, if I put every useful writeup / gif / image I’ve done so far in there, it will likely exceed the character limit, take very long to load and be even more cluttered than it is right now. I need to find a better way to post reference knowledge.
Hitstun depends on percentage. Against CF, back short hop instant tipper uair starts to work against neutral DI at 46% (maybe even 43-45). You can follow up both with grab and with another sh uair.
If you did it against someone with less damage, the hitstun from the knockback probably wasn’t enough.
Yes.
For DI in / out, you need to dash in the direction he DI’d in. For no DI, both dash directions work just fine.
Yes, you’re right, I made a mistake. It should be correct by now. Thank you.
Yes, it’s very similar. TFS doesn’t actually require a turn, you can C-stick in that direction as well. I’ll clear that up.
Yeah, it should have been there instead. Please go over it again, it should be correct now.
Dthrow is laggier, so there are no follow-ups. Thus, you also don’t have proper frame traps. If they hold down and away, you have no true combo follow-up.
No, they can’t. Let me quote myself: “Also, because your hurtboxes are so low during dtilt, Fox’ illusion will never hit you.”
Zero. Choosing the perfect vertical spacing that escapes Marth’s dtilt is a 1-frame-window. Further reading:
Against spacies’ low side-B: http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...-data-application.337035/page-6#post-16027996
High side-B, dtilt illustrations, edgeguarding with slopes: http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...-data-application.337035/page-6#post-16035662
http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...-data-application.337035/page-8#post-16067704
No way, sorry.
I analyzed this situation thoroughly in this post: http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...-data-application.337035/page-5#post-15941634
I guess I should integrate it into the op. Although, if I put every useful writeup / gif / image I’ve done so far in there, it will likely exceed the character limit, take very long to load and be even more cluttered than it is right now. I need to find a better way to post reference knowledge.
Hitstun depends on percentage. Against CF, back short hop instant tipper uair starts to work against neutral DI at 46% (maybe even 43-45). You can follow up both with grab and with another sh uair.
If you did it against someone with less damage, the hitstun from the knockback probably wasn’t enough.
Yes.
For DI in / out, you need to dash in the direction he DI’d in. For no DI, both dash directions work just fine.
Yes, you’re right, I made a mistake. It should be correct by now. Thank you.
Yes, it’s very similar. TFS doesn’t actually require a turn, you can C-stick in that direction as well. I’ll clear that up.
Yeah, it should have been there instead. Please go over it again, it should be correct now.
I’ve looked for that back then, but I haven’t found a percent-DI combination where Dolphin Slash sweetspot is guaranteed. At ~30% and DI in, CF has a 1-frame window to jump out of your perfectly executed turn → dash → up-B. I don’t think you should ever attempt this; the risk of CF jumping out and punishing you is just too high.
hey @
Kadano
do you have any sort of info on powershielding lasers? like how many frames you have standing vs crouching on various laser heights?
Kadano
do you have any sort of info on powershielding lasers? like how many frames you have standing vs crouching on various laser heights?
Kadano, could you put up the first frame of Marth's dair? An interesting thing about the move is that the spiking hitbox is counted over the others if some of the hitboxes hit at the same time, which is what happens when you're already super close to them. So you don't necessarily need to hit them with the tip of the sword, you just need some part of their body to be touching the spike hitbox when move starts at frame 6. I want to know where exactly the first spike hitbox appears.
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@
Kadano
:
im sure you know how from 0-17(ish), fox and falco can DI slightly behind marth to force him to do turnaround grab instead of standing grab, but since it is slight DI, it can throw off marth's judgment.
would you have any way of showing the SLIGHTEST possible DI (i.e. the closest to no/neutral DI) where marth is forced to turnaround grab (gif or still image is fine)? i usually try to judge the CG based on fox/falco's position relative to marth's hand (from the uthrow), and i feel like if they're barely behind marth's hand, you can still turnaround grab, but i guess i want to know the visual cues with 100% certainty
i mean, i get it would change with percent
but idk, maybe there's something you know that i don't
Kadano
:im sure you know how from 0-17(ish), fox and falco can DI slightly behind marth to force him to do turnaround grab instead of standing grab, but since it is slight DI, it can throw off marth's judgment.
would you have any way of showing the SLIGHTEST possible DI (i.e. the closest to no/neutral DI) where marth is forced to turnaround grab (gif or still image is fine)? i usually try to judge the CG based on fox/falco's position relative to marth's hand (from the uthrow), and i feel like if they're barely behind marth's hand, you can still turnaround grab, but i guess i want to know the visual cues with 100% certainty
i mean, i get it would change with percent
but idk, maybe there's something you know that i don't
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