Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

That's why I'm looking for alternatives that use much less bandwidth. gfycat html5 video embedding would be perfect, but for some reason the admins here won't install the necessary add-in.

 

I made a range comparison of Marth’s quick / strong attacks. Maybe it’s useful to some of you:


I’ll respond to your posts soon.

 

Only with multiple shield SDI. If your ftilt is spaced perfectly, he can’t even short hop fair you before you are out of lag. So it’s perfectly safe, unless Marth does a powershield dtilt / ftilt / fsmash.

Aye, finishing the upthrow followup list is the next thing on my list (after replying to all of you). I’ll structure it as a table so that you can quickly find the best followup for every percent range / DI combination.

That’s asking pretty much. Doing the necessary testing would take 4 hours at the very least. I’d have to establish the percent and DI ranges at which Falcon can mash out of tumble so he escapes the tech chase first, then calculate hitstun for all the throws and percent ranges, then finding out the best way to close in for all the throw-percent-DI-combinations … then go into tech option frames, control Magus’ values for the first visual cue of each, determine the best reaction followup possible with “perfect” reaction times for every tech option. Then I could give you the reaction leniency for every throw-tech-option combination.
It’s on my list just after CF uthrow.

Definitely not in the way that you do the same uair / utilt timing for all of his DI options and expect it to hit on all of them. If you allow reacting to his DI as well, I suspect that there are large ranges starting at approximately 45%.

I recommend practicing with somebody who also wants to improve his reaction times. Just take turns in the relevant micro-games and try to react to his different throws / whatever as quickly as possible. Try to find out the visual cues by which you can tell what he did the earliest.

It works at least until 100% against tipper jabs. If they DI the jab properly, it probably works forever, haha.
Against sourspot jabs, Fox (and Falco most probably as well) can side-B to the ledge afterwards as well until at least 100%.
Also, it’s mostly Fox/Falco who determines whether you get the tipper or sourspot jab hitbubble, not you.

What do you mean by “hit you crouching”? You can crouch-cancel Fox’s aerial side-B until ~95% and have enough time to run up to him and grab him.

No, it won’t. It’s great against up-B, but against side-B, not so much.

“Sweetspot” is very relative. If you understand it as the lowest side-B they can do to grab the ledge, well then it’s only a 1-frame-window, of course. In that situation, Marth is in lag anyway, so it doesn’t really matter whether they sweetspot or not.

It depends. If they side-B from rather far away, you can do two dtilts and grab them afterwards while they are still in lag. If they start their side-B rather close to you, this is not possible. It’s a good idea, this might be part of the perfect edgeguarding routine.

It’s a lot more complicated than that, haha. It’s a combination of timing, spacing and Fox/Falco lifting their heads up when they side-B against the wall.

No to the first question, yes to the second. The right spacing here is not just vertical, but also horizontal, so you can simply edgehog them if they attempt this.[/quote]

 

Marth uthrow followups on Captain Falcon
╔══════════╤═══════════╤═══════════╗╔═════════════╤═════════════╤═════════════╤╗
║Frames of │... Damage │104W Frame ║║... Guaranteed followups on CF ......... │║
║. Hitstun │before hit │ advantage ║║.. (no DI) ..│ forward¹ DI │ backward DI │║
╟──────────┼───────────┼───────────╢╟─────────────┼─────────────┼─────────────┼╢
║...... 33 │....... −1 │....... −1 ║║.............│.............│.............│║
║...... 34 │.... 0 - 3 │........ 0 ║║.............│.............│.............│║
║...... 35 │.... 4 - 8 │........ 1 ║║.............│.............│.............│║
║...... 36 │.... 9- 12 │........ 2 ║║.............│.............│.............│║
║...... 37 │... 13- 17 │........ 3 ║║.............│.............│.............│║
║...... 38 │... 18- 21 │........ 4 ║║→B ..........│.............│.............│║
║...... 39 │... 22- 26 │........ 5 ║║→B ..........│ →B, utilt ..│←B...........│║
║...... 40 │... 27- 30 │........ 6 ║║→B, regrab ..│ →B, ut .....│←B, Tut......│║
║...... 41 │... 31- 35 │........ 7 ║║→B, r..... ..│ →B, ut,ft...│←B, Tut......│║
║...... 42 │... 36- 40 │........ 8 ║║→B........ ..│ →B, ut,ft...│←B,TDr,Tfa,ft│║
║...... 43 │... 41- 44 │........ 9 ║║→B,bsuair ...│ →B, ut,ft...│←B,TDr,Tfa,ft│║
║...... 44 │... 45- 49 │....... 10 ║║→B,bsu,ut ...│D→B, .. ft,FS│←B,TDr,Tfa,ft│║
║...... 45 │... 50- 53 │....... 11 ║║→B,bsu,ut,bFS│D→B, fa,ft ..│←B,TDr,Tfa,ft│║
║...... 46 │... 54- 58 │....... 12 ║║→B,bsu,ut,bFS│D→B,Dfa,ft,FS│←B,TDr,Tfa,ft│║
║...... 47 │... 59- 63 │....... 13 ║║→B,bsu,ut, FS│D→B,Dfuaft,FS│←B,TDr,Tfa,ft│║
║...... 48 │... 64- 67 │....... 14 ║║→B,ua, ut, FS│D→B,Dfua .,FS│D←B, Dfua, FS│║
║...... 49 │... 68- 72 │....... 15 ║║.. ua, ut,bFS│D→B,Dfua ,DFS│D←B, Dfua, FS│║
║...... 50 │... 73- 76 │....... 16 ║║.. ua, ut,PFS│D→B,Dfua ,PFS│D←B, Dfua,PFS│║
║...... 51 │... 77- 81 │....... 17 ║║.. ua, ut,PFS│D→B,Dfua ....│D←B, Dfua ...│║
║...... 52 │... 82- 85 │....... 18 ║║.. ua, ut,PFS│... Dfua ....│.... Dfua ...│║
║...... 53 │... 86- 90 │....... 19 ║║.. ua .......│... Dfua ....│.... Dfua ...│║
║...... 54 │... 91- 95 │....... 20 ║║.. ua .......│... Dfua ....│.... Dfua ...│║
║...... 55 │... 96- 99 │....... 21 ║║.. ua .......│... Dfua ....│.... Dfua ...│║
║...... 56 │.. 100-104 │....... 22 ║║.. ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 57 │...105-108 │....... 23 ║║.. ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 58 │...109-113 │....... 24 ║║.. ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 59 │...114-117 │....... 25 ║║fj ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 60 │...118-122 │....... 26 ║║fj ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 61 │...123-127 │....... 27 ║║fj ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 62 │...128-131 │....... 28 ║║fj ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 63 │...132-136 │....... 29 ║║fj ua .......│.............│.............│║
║...... 64 │...137-140 │....... 30 ║║fj ua .......│.............│.............│║
╚══════════╧═══════════╧═══════════╝╚═════════════╧═════════════╧═════════════╧╝

Spoiler: Screenshot for mobile browsing

Notes:
[Because one line and thus hitbox class includes a range of 4%, these are approximations and this chart is only accurate to 3%]
[when I run out of space, I leave out commas. This still keeps the individual actions separate; they don’t get combined or anything]
T indicates turning before doing the action mentioned afterwards.
D indicates dashing before doing the action mentioned afterwards.
P indicates pivoting (dash → turn) before doing the action mentioned afterwards. For no DI, it does not matter whether you start by dashing left or by dashing right. For DI left / right, you always need to dash in the direction your victim DI’d in.
→B, ←B: Dancing Blade, the arrow indicates the necessary orientation. Depending on the victim’s DI, this can convert into subsequent ↔B slashes into a long combo. Good DI (away or behind) escapes everything beyond the first slash, though.
regrab: standing regrab for no DI, JC grab for forward / backward DI.
utilt: utilt, only mentioned when it lands a good hitbox. (For example, on no DI you can connect with it starting at 22%, but you only get the 45° knockback hitbox which has zero combo potential at low %. Things like this or jabs will be left out by me.)
fair: short hop tipper fair, good for starting combos against CF. At low %, DI away will escape most subsequent hits, though (due to his high fall acceleration).
fua: Both tipper fair and tipper uair hit.
uair: short hop uair.
bsuair: backwards short hop instant uair. This needs frame perfection at 43 frames hitstun, no DI.
FS: tipper forward smash.
bFS: Backward fsmash (in the opposite direction you are facing during the uthrow animation).
DFS: Dash fsmash, also known as small step fsmash.
ft: forward tilt.

Full jump uair might combo even longer on no DI.

Edit: I can make gfycats of some followups and link them from the table. Please state requests like this: “44HS, no DI, Dancing Blade” or “40%, backward DI, regrab”. If you want to see more – eg the longest possible string from Dancing Blade if it isn’t DIed – please be very precise about what you want to see.If you have a decent PC (2.4 GHz dual-core with dedicated graphics card or better) you can also easily test things like this by yourself using Dolphin and a hacked Melee iso.

Edit2: Link to the first post about this with additional explanations and one large .gif: http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...data-application.337035/page-16#post-16603455

Also, please don’t tell me that CF has not 3 discrete options to DI Marth’s uthrow, but more like 100. I know that, of course, but three options have been enough work for me. If CF DI’s to the left “softly” or “weak” or whatever you want to call it, your followups will be between (no DI) and (backward DI), so I hope you can come up with the options that work by yourself.

 

All follow-ups I mentioned are inescapable. Captain Falcon can never jump out if the follow-up is executed perfectly. Most are true combos, some (for example, side-B on 38-39 hitstun) are frame traps and have Captain Falcon out of hitstun for one or two frames, but regardless of what he does during these frames, the attack will hit anyway.

In general, the first row a follow-up appears in will require frame perfection. The second row will have 1 frame leniency, the third two, etc.
Some follow-ups need to be delayed slightly at higher percent (for example, tipper forward smash at 49 frames hitstun and no DI) to make up for the higher knockback. They are still guaranteed, though.

 

For uthrow, no way. If they DI your fthrow in, you can fair them. For Ganon, fsmash connects as well.
Dthrow is laggier, so there are no follow-ups. Thus, you also don’t have proper frame traps. If they hold down and away, you have no true combo follow-up.

No, they can’t. Let me quote myself: “Also, because your hurtboxes are so low during dtilt, Fox’ illusion will never hit you.”

Zero. Choosing the perfect vertical spacing that escapes Marth’s dtilt is a 1-frame-window. Further reading:
Against spacies’ low side-B: http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...-data-application.337035/page-6#post-16027996
High side-B, dtilt illustrations, edgeguarding with slopes: http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...-data-application.337035/page-6#post-16035662
http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...-data-application.337035/page-8#post-16067704

No way, sorry.

I analyzed this situation thoroughly in this post: http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...-data-application.337035/page-5#post-15941634

I guess I should integrate it into the op. Although, if I put every useful writeup / gif / image I’ve done so far in there, it will likely exceed the character limit, take very long to load and be even more cluttered than it is right now. I need to find a better way to post reference knowledge.

Hitstun depends on percentage. Against CF, back short hop instant tipper uair starts to work against neutral DI at 46% (maybe even 43-45). You can follow up both with grab and with another sh uair.
If you did it against someone with less damage, the hitstun from the knockback probably wasn’t enough.

Yes.

For DI in / out, you need to dash in the direction he DI’d in. For no DI, both dash directions work just fine.

Yes, you’re right, I made a mistake. It should be correct by now. Thank you.

Yes, it’s very similar. TFS doesn’t actually require a turn, you can C-stick in that direction as well. I’ll clear that up.

Yeah, it should have been there instead. Please go over it again, it should be correct now.

 

I’ve looked for that back then, but I haven’t found a percent-DI combination where Dolphin Slash sweetspot is guaranteed. At ~30% and DI in, CF has a 1-frame window to jump out of your perfectly executed turn → dash → up-B. I don’t think you should ever attempt this; the risk of CF jumping out and punishing you is just too high.

 

Yes.
Very slightly (negligible). I can’t give hard frame windows for the low lasers as they depend on the distance between Marth and Falco.

No, you input the action (fsmash) 1 frame after the turn.