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Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

Discussion in 'Marth' started by Kadano, Jun 7, 2013.

  1. Druggedfox

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  2. tauKhan

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    If a sheik stands on platform and doesn't tilt his shield, you just hit her feet. It's super easy, I haven't seen anyone who can shield drop from angled shield fast enough, it's possible though.

    Question: I have noticed that there is a difference between doing hold / slight input turn and smash input turn. If you jump during the early frames of hold turn, you'll not be turned around. This made me miss certain manouvers like turn wd to take ledge. Are there any other differences of significance?
     
  3. T-R3X

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    #723 T-R3X, May 12, 2014
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
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  4. SpiderMad

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    How much faster can Marth go across FD with Dash Wavedashes than frame perfect Wavedashes (without the dash) or Running?
     
    #724 SpiderMad, May 12, 2014
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  5. ZoSo

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    Fwiw, I also use Blur's method for shield drops, and I very rarely mess it up.

    Kadano, questions about Marth's options from the edge:

    1) You described "optimal" vs "perfect" setups for invincible edgedashes. Could you describe what each of these would entail for Marth?

    2) Can ECB position also affect the timing of reverse edgedashes/haxdashes/whatever you want to call it?

    3) Do phenomena such as no-impact landing and aerial-interrupt landing (I don't know if there are more standard terms for these) give Marth any other options from the edge?

    4) Last of all, a silly question! On the rock to the right side of Kongo Jungle (this one) can Fox perfect ledgedash then transfer to the opposing edge of the rock, whether by pivot edgehogging or some other means, while maintaining full invincibility? If yes, I'm assuming a few other characters would be able to as well. If you could make a .gif of this, I swear I would use it in my sig until Smashboards ceases to exist.

    edit: Also, I IMMEDIATELY favorited this when I saw it the other night. The music was an excellent touch.
     
    #725 ZoSo, May 12, 2014
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  6. Kadano

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    Been busy the last couple of days with tournament hosting, ruleset discussing and some other stuff, so I couldn’t reply sooner.

    I’m inclined to say it’s because the “Roll right” output area in my diagram is on top of even more shield drop coordinates. So by holding right for a few frames, the smash input to the right is deactivated and the additional shield drop area “below“ it (actually lower priority / later code execution) gets uncovered.
    All the input-output diagrams I’ve done so far are for control stick movements with Δt = 1 frame, so things like this aren’t incorporated. I don’t know of a decent means to display 4+-dimensional content here on smashboards yet, and it would be too much work for me to justify with just the argument of encyclopedic knowledge, so I won’t dig much deeper yet. Might do a video about it at some point in the future, though.

    IIRC, it’s a 1-frame window if you don’t tipper and a 2-frame window if you do. I’m sure it is possible to chain 2 or even 3 PC-fairs in some scenarios.

    It’s funny you bring this up just now; one hour ago the topic came up on the German Smash Boards and I finally elaborated on it. Creating an input-output-display for control stick options during Wait was something that I wanted to do for a long time, and after having done the same thing for Guard and CliffWait, it didn’t took as long this time.
    Here is the link to the post (German, I’ll probably translate it soon): http://forum.germansmash.de/showthr...tell-sie-hier!&p=751963&viewfull=1#post751963
    [​IMG]
    To answer only what you asked for, tilt turns fully turn Marth around on frame 7 (for all characters, see my next post). It’s not possible to interrupt with Dash before frame 7 and when you jump or slide off the stage during these frames, you will keep your old orientation, just as if you hadn’t turned around.
    Attacks, however, will take to the new orientation both for smash turns and tilt turns.
    These tilt turn anomalies are also the reason why dashing backwards is harder than dashing forward.
    Thanks for linking that set, some friends told me that a Marth player from Texas was playing very close against s0ft and I immediately assumed it to be ARC. I wasn’t able to find the set before you linked it, though.
    I’m not sure how I feel about him defaulting to pivot fsmash instead of wavedash fsmash as a grab followup at mid-%. I think it might have a higher tipper rate, but if it doesn’t tipper, it whiffs. Wavedash fsmash probably has a lower whiff rate. When I created the input²-output-diagrams in the OP, I only checked for whether fsmash connected and whether it’s possible to get it to tipper by choosing a certain wavedash angle. I should do it again with some more levels of differentiation, checking for whether it’s possible to react to Jigglypuff’s DI and which options are optimal at given percents etc.

    In the second match ARC looked incredibly souvereign. Like the (Marth) prince that was promised … ?
    I counted the frames (again) and it seems that DWD are only perfect for initiating the movement. Here are the raw values for moving from one side of FD to the other, counting from the first input frame to the last grounded frame:

    Dash → Run: 97 frames
    DWD → DWD → DWD … : 96 frames
    DWD → WD → WD … : 94 frames

    Imho, running, dashing and (especially) dash-dancing with Marth is overrated in comparison to wavedashing. Wavedashing can be abused quite a lot more than it is done in the current metagame.

    1) For Marth, there is no such distinction. Perfect usually encompasses inputs so technically difficult that they belong more in the TAS-realm. They are unlikely for any human to ever be executed, let alone consistently.
    Marth’s ECB always re-aligns itself before Marth rises above stage level, so all your attempts to manipulate it for quicker stage claiming are futile.

    2) No, for Marth that’s long past the point where the ECB is bound to re-align. For other characters, this is possible, yes.

    3) I checked for this once but I didn’t find any. I didn’t go to extensive lengths, though, so I might have missed something.
    I like to call the former “lagless landing”, btw, as it’s the only way to land with truly no lag. The terms you named are great as well to me, though.

    4) Here is the craziest one I found for Fox:
    [​IMG]
    Small size for unobtrusive sig. If the mostly cropped out percent overlay bothers you or you want Fox to do something different (I could also have four Foxes / Falcos / maybe even Captain Falcon and Sheik at the same time, lol), just tell me.
     
    #726 Kadano, May 12, 2014
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
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  7. ZoSo

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    OK, I've been sitting here watching that .gif for like twenty minutes.

    If you want to try to come up with something totally silly using multiple characters, go nuts.
     
    SUNG475 and Kadano like this.
  8. SleepyK

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    is there a list for all the characters' ledgedash frames?

    i haven't seen much on falco and ice climbers
     
  9. SpiderMad

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    Thanks that's interesting, so when you're stationary doing that dash gives your jumpsquat momentum rather than being stationary; but after that doing another wavedash still carries that same momentum again for your jumpsquat so it's just wasting frames to do another dash before it. Is this different for Falco though, where his traction doesn't allow his wavedashes to carry as much momentum as his dash or something because it feels like dash wavedash is way faster than perfect wavedashing for him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH8FYFUDJhY#t=95

    Also what specifics do you mean again for wavedashing being abused more? Should I be wavedashing back and forth instead of dash dancing a lot?

    Also I remember you saying to reach the top platform of BF (or yoshis?) that jump doublejump autoland is faster than wavelanding onto it or something, did you have a gif for that? seems hard
     
    #729 SpiderMad, May 12, 2014
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  10. Xyzz

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    I-it's not like I did this for any of you or anything... i just randomly happened to have this translation at hand, okay?
     
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  11. DJ _ICE

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    Ooh, can you do the .gif but instead doing a shine turnaround wavedash? http://youtu.be/62IDrqxCAPc?t=1m10s Its such a stylish way of stealing the ledge.

    Also all of this technical data, jeez, you're killing me here Kadano
    God you're so good
     
  12. Kadano

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    What kind of frames? Input or output (amount of actionable ledge intangibility)? Either way, I don’t think anyone has done a complete list yet.

    Some Melee gifs can be so trance-inducing, haha.

    Okay, expect a truly insane .gif within 24 hours. =)

    I think it’s the same for Falco. Because this is the Marth boards, I won’t go into his movement speeds right now, also it was quite the useless work for Marth in the first place. It doesn’t really matter if you gain 3 frames on such a long distance when you won’t be perfect with all of your inputs anyway, while running perfectly is really easy.
    Falco’s run speed is 1.5 while Marth’s is 1.8. Falco’s “Stop Deccel.”, which I’m pretty sure is traction and thus should determine wavedash speed, is 0.08 while Marth’s is 0.06. I’m not sure whether run speed and traction are applied in a similar fashion, but if they are, dividing Falco’s values through Marth’s values should give a somewhat decent estimate of whether it should work the same for Falco as well. Considering how his (supposed) traction matches Marth’s more closely than his run speed, I believe wavedashing should be even better for him in comparison. Except for the +1 frame Kneebend, which slows him down slightly.

    Yes, especially when you want to place a dtilt.
    No, I don’t remember creating an animation for lagless / no-impact landing on top platforms. I’m sure it’s Marth’s fastest options for the top platforms on all stages btw.

    @Xyzz: ♥
     
    #732 Kadano, May 12, 2014
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  13. ZoSo

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    It bears mention that PPMD uses wavedashing extensively to space and position for dtilts.
     
  14. tauKhan

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    The bolded part must be false. I tried doing attacks and grabs, and those turned me when done on the same frames where jump left me unturned. Turnaround utilt and ftilt always turned me unless I pressed the tilt angle and attack same time. I used pausing method.
     
  15. Kadano

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    Thanks for checking and disproving my claim. I corrected the part you quoted.

    On a related notice, the tilt turn option constraint window is not 7 frames for all the characters. Here is a table I did for the German Smash Boards, I hope the code will work here as well:
    Column 1
    0 [tr][td]# Character [/td][td]Tilt Turn Frames[/td][/tr]
    1 [tr][td] Giga Bowser [/td][td]9 [/td][/tr]
    2 [tr][td] Master Hand [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
    3 [tr][td] Crazy Hand [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
    4 [tr][td] Male Wireframe [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
    5 [tr][td] Female Wireframe [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
    6 [tr][td] Sandbag [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
    7 [tr][td] Zelda [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
    8 [tr][td] Sheik [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
    9 [tr][td] Popo [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
    10 [tr][td] Nana [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
    11 [tr][td] Captain Falcon [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
    12 [tr][td] Young Link [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
    13 [tr][td] Donkey Kong [/td][td]9 [/td][/tr]
    14 [tr][td] Doctor Mario [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
    15 [tr][td] Falco [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
    16 [tr][td] Fox [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
    17 [tr][td] Kirby [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
    18 [tr][td] Bowser [/td][td]9 [/td][/tr]
    19 [tr][td] Link [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
    20 [tr][td] Luigi [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
    21 [tr][td] Mario [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
    22 [tr][td] Marth [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
    23 [tr][td] Mewtwo [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
    24 [tr][td] Ness [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
    25 [tr][td] Peach [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
    26 [tr][td] Pichu [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
    27 [tr][td] Pikachu [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
    28 [tr][td] Jigglypuff [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
    29 [tr][td] Samus [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
    30 [tr][td] Yoshi [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
    31 [tr][td] Mr. Game&Watch [/td][td]5 [/td][/tr]
    32 [tr][td] Ganondorf [/td][td]8 [/td][/tr]
    33 [tr][td] Roy [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]

    Edit: Apparently, it doesn’t. I can’t find XenForo table documentation right now, so you‘ll have to do with this ****ty formatting for now.
    ╔════════════════╤════════════════╗
    Character ......│Tilt Turn Frames
    ╟────────────────┼────────────────╢
    ║Giga Bowser ....│9 ..............║
    ║Master Hand ....│5 ..............║
    ║Crazy Hand .....│5 ..............║
    ║Male Wireframe .│7 ..............║
    ║Female Wireframe│7 ..............║
    ║Sandbag ........│5 ..............║
    ║Zelda ..........│7 ..............║
    ║Sheik ..........│5 ..............║
    ║Popo ...........│5 ..............║
    ║Nana ...........│5 ..............║
    ║Captain Falcon .│7 ..............║
    ║Young Link .....│7 ..............║
    ║Donkey Kong ....│9 ..............║
    ║Doctor Mario ...│5 ..............║
    ║Falco ..........│5 ..............║
    ║Fox ............│5 ..............║
    ║Kirby ..........│5 ..............║
    ║Bowser .........│9 ..............║
    ║Link ...........│7 ..............║
    ║Luigi ..........│5 ..............║
    ║Mario ..........│5 ..............║
    ║Marth ..........│7 ..............║
    ║Mewtwo .........│5 ..............║
    ║Ness ...........│5 ..............║
    ║Peach ..........│7 ..............║
    ║Pichu ..........│5 ..............║
    ║Pikachu ........│5 ..............║
    ║Jigglypuff .....│5 ..............║
    ║Samus ..........│5 ..............║
    ║Yoshi ..........│7 ..............║
    ║Mr. Game&Watch .│5 ..............║
    ║Ganondorf ......│8 ..............║
    ║Roy ............│7 ..............║
    ╚════════════════╧════════════════╝

    Source: Toomai’s Melee data collection, where I found one previously unknown character value column to be (Tilt Turn lag)−1.

    Also, @ZoSo: Here is a ,gif with 2 characters:
    [​IMG]
     
    #735 Kadano, May 13, 2014
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
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  16. Xyzz

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    Not a cruelly undocumented, but a cruelly unimplemented feature (there's plugins to remedy this, but I don't think one those is installed on smashboards).
     
    #736 Xyzz, May 13, 2014
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
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  17. Kadano

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    Whelp, back to ASCII “art”.
    Edit: But seriously, why do they implement [ table] but not [tr] and [td]. It doesn’t make any sense at all.
     
    #737 Kadano, May 13, 2014
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  18. Bones0

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    LOL at being some of the best shield droppers when you guys can't even do proper standing shield drops. Not trying to put you on blast, but having to dash into shield is a huge limitation to your shield drop game when you can do it without the dash and still get drift in either direction simply by shield dropping at a -45 degree angle. Even if you have the opportunity to dash into shield it isn't necessarily a good idea because it makes it really difficult to drift in the other direction.
     
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  19. tauKhan

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    What, they don't dash into shielddrops always. And doing standing shielddrop by going to side is easier.
     
    #739 tauKhan, May 13, 2014
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  20. Xyzz

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    I don't think there's much point in being able to shield drop from a dash / side angled shield, but if they can reliably move the stick to the side during shieldhitlag and proceed to do that slidedown-shielddrop from there, there's no problem, i'd guess. I don't know about others, but I personally have to reset the control stick to neutral during that time as well anyways, since I'm probably angling my shield downwards against an opponent who's below me.
     
  21. tauKhan

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    I think doing shielddrops from the roll zone is better, because you drop by moving down, and if you are in the roll zone you don't have to worry about spot dodging, giving more leniency for the drop.
     
  22. Bones0

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    You don't always get the benefit of shield dropping out of hitlag/shieldstun though. If they know you can shield drop, it's not uncommon for them to empty hop under you and wait for you to do something. Relying on any kind of holding left/right before dropping is going to expose you to more shield pokes than if you just keep the stick in neutral before you want to drop.
     
  23. tauKhan

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    If they are below you, you must angle downwards, or it's free poke anyway.
     
  24. Kadano

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    @TheCrimsonBlur @Bones0 @d z @dkuo @tauKhan @SpiderMad
    I looked into forward-held shield drops before you guys have a chance to go on arguing about it (didn’t really happen yet, but in the past, this happened when I didn’t take a request instantly, and I want to prevent it this time).

    So, the y area when moving on the left / right rim of the octagonal gate that triggers shield drop is 49-54. These are 5 values, considerably more than the 3 values for instant straight / semi-straight down shield drops (these have y from 73 to 75).
    Most controllers‘ 225° and 315° notches (southwest and southeast) are just at these y values. One of the controllers I use for Dolphin testing is a near-mint white one. Its 225° notch has y=50 when approached from above¹ while its 315° notch has y=47 when approached from above. Dash shield drops to the left are super easy with it, I get the one where the shield is out for only 1 frame 90% of the time although I didn’t practice it before.

    Doing dash shield drops doesn’t remove the spot dodge risk. Especially for controllers that have downward diagonal notches with y<49, it still happens if you aim for the notch and press the stick quickly.
     
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  25. Xyzz

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    haha, right. Didn't think about it that far; like I said, i ususally hold down when I have an opponent below me and then reset the stick to neutral just before I want to drop (:
     
  26. TheCrimsonBlur

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    Interesting Kadano, thanks.

    Never said I couldn't do straight down bro 8-) My philosophy with all tech skill is to learn every input method (wavedashing with both triggers, jumping both buttons & stick, etc).

    But tbh I rarely use it. The other method covers 99% of situations. I recommend you use it. Its faster (for humans) and has a greater range. Just do straight down in the specific situations its good in.
     
    #746 TheCrimsonBlur, May 13, 2014
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
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  27. dkuo

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    interesting. so angled shield drops allow a wider margin in general...that explains a lot

    somewhat pointless question but what about inbetween center and side? im assuming theres also a zone that has 4 y value allowances
     
    #747 dkuo, May 13, 2014
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  28. SleepyK

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    i mean actionable invincible frames from a ledgedash for all the characters

    also the total invincible frames from a ledgedash would be interesting
     
    #748 SleepyK, May 13, 2014
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  29. Signia

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    You don't have to wait for them to hit you even with that method, though. Isn't slowly tilting to the side and pressing to the notch just as fast as slowly pressing down and then quickly finish pressing down??
    Really, why, just curious? I think you should map one input per action, it's less mental load. You're either making an unnecessary decision or are having to train unecessary movements. From physical training theory, maintaining a form of movement takes activation of motor neurons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_unit_recruitment, and is how movements can become automatic and subconscious. When I play the piano, varying up the fingers I use to hit the notes slows my improvement down, and even looking somewhere during the song that I don't usually look messes me up. If you want consistency, you don't want to change your form.

    I think it's best to make movements as different as possible, too. You fingers might think (literally) you're doing one thing when you want to do the other. This is partly why I like to wavedash with one trigger and shield with the other. Keeping everything distinct and encapsulated makes movement cohesive.
     
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  30. Xyzz

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    You will however not hit every note with the same finger all the time, but base it on which came before and will come afterwards. Say, if you go c, e, g you would probably use thumb, middle, pinky. If however the song asked for an h right after that, it'd probably thumb, index, ring, pinky.
    The most comfortable technique should really depend on what you want to do afterwards and did before in melee, too. I'm far too lazy to practice every way to do anything, but for example I will use the controlstick to jump (opposed to y) when doing a shine-bair.
     
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  31. Signia

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  32. Bones0

    Bones0
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    Smash Legend

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    The situation he was talking about was where you shield on a platform without dashing or rolling first, so your stick is in neutral. He suggested that it seems fine to push the stick to the side during hitlag/shieldstun and then roll it downwards after. While that does work, if they don't hit your shield, pushing your stick left or right will cause a roll, and you can just tilt it left or right, but that's going to be slower than just going at a -45 degree angle. When people ask me about shield dropping, I actually recommend they start out with that movement in mind (tilt left/right, roll down). If you think of it as the legs of a triangle, your ultimate goal should be able to ride perfectly along the hypotenuse because it's obviously going to be quicker than tracing two legs in two different directions.
     
    tauKhan likes this.
  33. SAUS

    SAUS
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    Smash Ace

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    OMG that gif with fox and falco is awesome lol.

    What angle do you hold the stick to escape the throw like this?
     
    #753 SAUS, May 15, 2014
    Last edited: May 15, 2014
  34. Druggedfox

    Druggedfox
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    Well until Kadano gets around to the exact angle, I can go ahead and tell you that you just DI down+away to get out of fthrow regrab
     
  35. Kadano

    Kadano
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    Magical Express

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    Like Druggedfox said, it’s just down and away. The notch is sufficient, it’s what I used in the animation.
     
    #755 Kadano, May 15, 2014
    Last edited: May 15, 2014
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  36. TheCrimsonBlur

    TheCrimsonBlur
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    You can go from neutral to full left or right much faster than you seem to think ... I'd wager the straight down/45 degree method is slightly faster though, so its a valid point. Ultimately, the "stick to the side" method is best when done after shieldstun, or when you're already holding left or right before you shield. The straight down method has its uses, yes, but I recommend the other method in most situations.

    I've found it heightens my overall dexterity, and gives me a better feel for the game mechanics and timing. Also, a lot of the times I'll favor my dominant fingers, but with practice, I find that I'm actually more comfortable with methods I never thought would be practical for me (ex: stick to jump for certain aerial controls).

    After I settle on the most "comfortable" method, I rigorously train it, but I can have rather convoluted control methods, based on my hand positioning. For example, I use A, cstick, Y, and control stick for my forward airs (in different combinations), depending on what I want. Like I mentioned above, I use two different methods for shield dropping, and I have about a hundred ways I press "A", "Y", and cstick. Sometimes I slide up down off Y to A, sometimes I use the base of my thumb for cstick, etc.

    Anyone who has watched my hands when I play knows its rather intense, so maybe its not the most "compact" way to play, but for me, mixing the inputs and going with whats most efficient, has opened up tech skill that wouldn't otherwise be possible.
     
  37. Xyzz

    Xyzz
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    Signia and Druggedfox like this.
  38. Xyzz

    Xyzz
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    Smash Champion

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    No, really. Back in the day when I learned music notation (goddammit, somebody just today reminded me that the matrix was released 15 friggin years ago... I feel so damn old), I didn't really check out much else other than what was handed to me, and the German notation seemed logical enough and I never spent any thought on the matter again (i mean it's not like we'd be using a different tonal system or anything, it's just another name for the same sound) (:
     
    ZoSo likes this.
  39. Life

    Life
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    As long as you never make fun of Americans not using the metric system again, we'll call it even.
     
  40. SleepyK

    SleepyK
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    Are you okay?

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    do you think we could get a complete list
    if not i could probably ask someone else
     

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