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Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

Discussion in 'Marth' started by Kadano, Jun 7, 2013.

  1. Signia

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    Does the third side-B's up variation have combo followups in useful situations? If you use side-B as an anti-air or against short hop approaches, it'll combo into the third hit. Choosing Up B for the third hit pops them up. When does this lead to good followups? Utilt is a better anti-air but that can't be done (easily) out of dashing.
     
  2. JazzDynamite!

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    Hey Kadano, if you got a bit of time, I have a question for you about light shielding

    Is there any specific pressure of shield press, that when combined with shield DI, allows you to reliably space away from shine range after Fox/Falco attacks your shield w/ nair or dair?
     
    #562 JazzDynamite!, Mar 16, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2014
  3. Bones0

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    It depends on how deep they go on your shield and how good your shield DI is. I'm sure you can shield SDI out of Falco's forward-facing shine without even lightshielding since the hitbox is awful, but Fox's will be a bit harder. You can also just go for powershields to get max shield pushback with minimal shield stun.
     
    #563 Bones0, Mar 17, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2014
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  4. 1MachGO

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    Anyone know how good platform tech chasing with fsmash is? Seems like it'd be the optimal punish when combined w/ pivoting.
     
  5. AustinRC

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyYC19ciM20

    4:07 time stamp. Hope this helps.
     
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  6. Elyssa Xey Hexen

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    Absolutely pointless on Final Destination, Dreamland, and most of the time on Fountain of Dreams lol Otherwise, if your opponent happens to give you the opportunity to Fsmash tipper them away from center stage go ahead. Or you know tipper gets you the kill. Except at like 0% on a platform or something low like that. Plus, walking I think is plenty for setting up your fsmash tipper most of the time on lower platforms.
     
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  7. hectohertz

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    hey kadano,

    do you know/have a list of how many frames of invincibility every character gets with a perfect ledgedash. i know sheik is +10, fox/falco is +14, but i can't seem to find a reference for the rest of the cast
     
  8. Kadano

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    I haven’t done that yet. As it involves finding the »perfect« ECB extension prerequisite (perfect in terms of actionable grounded intangibility = max¹), it’s too time-consuming that I would do it right now for the entire cast, but if it’s only one or two characters, I can look into it.

    Sheik is +12 on perfect execution, Falco is +15 and Fox is +16. I can elaborate on what »perfect execution« consists of, but I won’t go into these bizarre details unless I have confirmation that you are interested, haha.
    Marth is +4. Because his slow double jump acceleration prevents you from optimizing with ECB strats, his »best« timing is at least easy compared with those of Fox and Sheik. Still, when you consider that Fox and Sheik can resort to »optimal« instead of »perfect« and sacrifice 1-2 frames actionable intangibility in favor of equally easy and consistent execution, it’s hard to argue for Marth’s strength at the ledge.

    In general, the faster a character’s double jump accelerates in height and the smaller his ECB extents downwards and towards the stage’s wall, the more intangibility he can carry over. The king in this micro-contest is Ganondorf with 18 frames, but his »perfect« routine is probably the most impractical.


    ¹See this thread for Fox examples
    .
     
    #568 Kadano, Mar 25, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
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  9. 1MachGO

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    Hey Kadano, if Marth fails to DI Fox's uthrow, how many inputs of smash DI are needed to consistently SDI out of uair? Furthermore, is there any merit to smashing both the control stick and c-stick in the same direction alternatively to increase your rate of SDI input?
     
  10. Silas06

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    this is an excellent contribution to the community

    thanks a ton, TC
     
  11. Bones0

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    Diggin' the blue text, Kadano. Now I can easily identify all of the posts worth reading instead of just half of them. ;)
     
  12. Tee ay eye

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    does anyone have bookmarks of guaranteed combo percentages on various characters? i know there's beat's flowchart on comboing fox/falco, and i know there's kadano's chart on jigglypuff punishes, but is there any more? for example i thought there was something somewhere about uthrow utilt on sheik
     
  13. Bones0

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    First page has frame data for uthrow utilt on Sheik. Also, I Marth uthrow uair on himself is guaranteed from 13-63% iirc. It's somewhere on the Marth boards (probably this thread).

    Found it:
     
    #573 Bones0, Mar 26, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2014
  14. SpiderMad

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    Does anyone have a guess/clue as to why Melee checked for Short hop button release a frame earlier than it had, whereas Brawl checks a frame later than Melee (and thus making short hopping with Fox and others easier in Project M). Was it due to coding limitations or something at the time? I wonder if Smash 64 also checked a frame earlier than it had to for short hop.

    How many different sizes of light shield are there?

    How many speeds of run are there? I think there's two as least in Brawl cus that's how I believe this trick works where Falco runs perpetually cus you run at a diagonal that in Brawl triggers a slow enough run that treats it like a crawl or something to not put you over the edge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJDkfjFr1F0
     
    #574 SpiderMad, Mar 26, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2014
  15. Kadano

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    How many speeds of run are there? [/quote]
    These come in analog ranges, so there are quite many. Approximately 64 for both, if you only consider “natural” runs from a neutral, non-moving Wait animation without using moonwalking / stickywalking to corrupt it.

    Stickywalks like above technically set your run speed to negative values, which freezes the animation for a short time until your run’s acceleration trumps over the negative momentum from the wavedash and moonwalk. (The run animation is played at a speed proportional to your current moving speed, but cannot go below 0.)
    Marth reached the ledge before this could happen, though, so you can’t see that turning point in this video.
     
    #575 Kadano, Mar 26, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2014
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  16. SpiderMad

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    @Kadano So there's also 64 different sized light shields?

    Do you have any guess as to why they didn't check the last frame possible in Melee they could have for short hop button release while Brawl fixed this?

    Do you know a lot about Controller Modding? Do you know anything about putting spacers into the shoulder triggers? How do I make the click (hard press/digital) of a controller easier to press (more buttery/soft/requiring less pressure)? If I modded a controller to trigger the L's digital input by only pressing the analog, would all I need is a transistor?

    How humanly possible is it to be consistent with frame perfect early aerials? Do you know of any SH double aerials or aerial to Waveland/Doublejump that require the first aerial to be frame perfect to get the 2nd aerial's hitbox out or WL/DJ possible at the last airborne frame?

    Why is Aerial/Grounded Glide Toss possible in Melee? Did they design an Airdodge/Roll cancel window specifically for throwing? Why is it though that it doesn't move you very much compared to Brawl?

    I heard Puff's bair (and possibly other aerials?) alter her ability to drift making it faster or something, is that true and does it apply to other characters as well? Does it apply to Brawl/PM?
     
    #576 SpiderMad, Mar 26, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
  17. Tee ay eye

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    where's the sheik stuff? i can't find it. i guess i is blind
     
  18. Kadano

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    Well, it’s on a different page than Bones0 said, but finding it isn’t all that hard as you make it out to be. ;)
    At the top right corner of smashboards, you have the search function. Write »upthrow sheik« in it, check the »limit my search to this thread only« button and in the »only find posts by member:« field, enter »Kadano«.
    Doing so currently yields four posts, of which the second newest is the one with all the information.

    I will paste all of it in the OP’s Sheik section anyway after I’ve finished writing this post, but using the search method above should prove to be helpful in the future as well if you are looking for very specific knowledge. Integrating everything I’ve posted that, in some way, relates to Marth, would grow the OP into even more insane lengths and total filesize.

    In fact, forums aren’t suited too well for very specific information. A newb Marth who wants to know reliable options from grab against Sheik likely won’t find this post with a Google search of »Super Smash Bros Melee Marth upthrow against Sheik« or something similar.
    Now we can somewhat assume that he knows about smashboards if he is competitively minded. Right now, similar search queries (except without the SSBM) find the post successfully if two of three possible upthrow spellings are used (»upthrow« and »uthrow«; »up throw« does not work), but it’s at the very end of the first page of search results. In one or two years, it will probably be on page 2 or 3, and the searcher likely won’t look beyond the first page.
    Also, until now I’ve assumed that he knows to look for up throw, when he could search for »grab options« as well – which won’t find the post.

    Being able to specify search tags for posts would help, but it relies on me and other contributors to never forget about it and don’t miss any of the terms people could be looking for. A better way would be to improve the search engine so that it knows that the terms »uthrow«, »up throw« and »upthrow« are the same thing. But that still wouldn’t help when entering »grab options«, which strictly speaking makes more sense for the searcher to use.
    If the search engine is told that the term »grab options« and all of its derivations should accept all »throw« derivations, it would probably become too lenient. »Grab options« might also be used as a query for how to grab somebody instead of what to do when he is already grabbed.

    Hosting knowledge on SSBWiki might be a better idea altogether, although it’s still far from perfect. The general attitude is less competitive and micro-interaction based and more encyclopedic. With the recent addition of the excellent frame data template by Toomai (most amazing contributor ever), this has seen a bit improvement, but it’s only something “encyclopedic” that happens to be useful for us competitors. The site is still not that apt for hosting matchup-specific micro-interaction analysis. But I will look into it, maybe I can include it in matchup articles as subpages (Marth_(SSBM)/Sheik_matchup_analysis).
     
    #578 Kadano, Mar 27, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
  19. hectohertz

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    as always, kadano delivers. i was actually mostly interested in sheik/marth, so that does answer most of my questions.
    i am definitely interested and would enjoy hearing about what the "perfect execution" consists of, and how that is different from the optimal version (and why its easier to execute the optimal version)
     
  20. Kadano

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    Since the post you just quoted, I have elaborated on it in the linked Fox thread. The OP together with my latest post should explain everything there is to it that I know of.
    For Sheik, it is very similar, but her perfect execution is a low Shino stall (so that the explosion doesn’t come out). Regular Shino stall gives her a −1 ledgedash (one frame less actionable intangibility than with perfect execution).
     
    #580 Kadano, Mar 27, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
  21. Tee ay eye

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    can you explain the 13-63% window on marth?

    i was trying it today, and there were some times where id miss. how strict is the window, and roughly when do you have to SH vs FH?

    i will include, however, that when i tried it out today, whenever i couldn't land a uair, i was generally able to land some other tipper aerial
     
    #581 Tee ay eye, Mar 27, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
  22. Kadano

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    AA = abbreviation for ActionAble (out of stun / lag)
    # = no combo (victim has an option that will escape your uair entirely)
    # = uair connects on most DI options, but it’s not a true combo.
    # = uair connects, but it’s not a true combo (victim is AA for at least 1 frame, but he has no options that escape uair entirely, he only might get a non-tipper hit)
    # = uair connects and it’s a true combo (victim transitions from hitstun to hitlag without any AA inbetween)

    ╔══════════╤════════════╗
    ║Frames of │.... Damage ║#“within” = this many frames may pass before the
    ║..Hitstun │.before hit ║#necessary action is triggered
    ╟──────────┼────────────╢
    ║...... 36 │...... 12 ..║#The thrown Marth will escape your full jump uair
    ¹ with a perfectly timed double jump.
    ║...... 37 │...... 13-17║#The thrown Marth is AA for one frame before your hitbox comes out. Only backwards DI
    ² will escape your full jump uair.¹³
    ║...... 38 │...... 18-21║#The thrown Marth is AA just when your hitbox comes out. FJU connects.²,¹⁸
    ║...... 39 │...... 22-26║#The thrown Marth is AA one frame after your hitbox came out. FJU connects.¹⁸
    ║...... 40 │...... 27-30║#The thrown Marth is AA two frames after your hitbox came out. FJU connects. ¹⁸
    ║...... 41 │...... 31-35║#FJU connects, except on DI behind you (a full jump bair will hit instead).³¹
    ║...... 42 │...... 36-40║#FJU / FJF connect.³⁶
    ║...... 43 │...... 41-44║#FJU connects.³⁶
    ║...... 44 │...... 45-49║#³⁶
    ║...... 45 │...... 50-53║#³⁶
    ║...... 46 │...... 54-58║#³⁶
    ║...... 47 │...... 59-63║#³⁶
    ║...... 48 │...... 64-67║#³⁶
    ╚══════════╧════════════╝

    ¹ Green = instant / earliest possible uair, causes instant gravity (⇒ shorter jump height)

    ² If he DI’s in front of you, you need to dash towards him for one frame before you do the FJU.
    If he DIs behind you, your best option is to do a backwards FJU. He can only escape by doing double jump → airdodge, which is kind of an unlikely attempt.

    ¹³ He can jump and airdodge, but without DI, he will still get hit before his intangibility starts. None of his aerial moves come out in time to hit you. The best he can do is double jump → airdodge down to get the weak non-tipper uair hit.

    ¹⁸ Usually, it isn’t before the third frame of upair where its hitboxes are out that you actually hit an opponent with it. Thus, upthrow → uair on Marth can only be a combo once his hitstun amounts to 40, assuming that the shortest execution will still have him in your range.

    ³¹ If he DI’s in front of you, you need to dash forward for one frame before you do the FJU.

    ³⁶ On no DI, the FJU will hit him while he is still in stun. On forward DI, you need to dash for 2 frames before you do the FJU. On backwards DI, a dash → full jump fair will hit him.

    As illustrated above, most of the time it works just barely. If you do it slower than frame perfect, you can expect the victim to escape.

    The only percent-DI combination where there is any leniency and it’s still a true combo is roughly 30% and DI in front of you. This lowers Marth’s falling curve so that it takes you less time to get there. Still, it’s only 1 frame leniency, maybe 2 at some point.

    You never short hop. At <45%, you full jump, and at >=45%, you full jump → double jump.
     
    #582 Kadano, Mar 28, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  23. 1MachGO

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    Does Marth have any other inescapable/semi-inescapable follow ups on other characters with his throws? Can fthrow be followed up with a pivot fsmash on characters like the Mario Bros.?
     
  24. Tee ay eye

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    ohhhhh, okay

    i was under the impression from your first post that 13 - 63% there was ALWAYS a guaranteed way to land uthrow uair with marth
     
  25. Kadano

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    [Meant to post this in the other thread, but accidentally did it here. Might be useful to have it here as well.]

    Here is a comparison of pre-dtilt movement options:

    Run-cancel dtilt: 18 frames startup (15 frames Dash, 1 frame Run, 1 frame RunBrake, 1 frame Squat), high range. Low range variability (the control stick’s x value determines dash speed). #It’s hard to be frame-perfect here. If you aim for 0 wasted frames, the input move is pretty much like a pivot ftilt, just downward instead of forward. You need to hold forward until Run 1, then have the control stick in any position except forward (this includes strong¹ down, but not weak¹ down) for 1 frame to trigger RunBrake. After this animation’s first frame, you need to hold strong down¹ for at least one frame to transition into Squat. Afterwards, you need to either hold strong down for another two frames (this would increase the total startup to 20) so that the smash input is disabled (otherwise, you would do a dsmash) or return the stick from strong forward to weak forward in order to dtilt.

    You cannot hold strong down during Dash to disable the smash input because doing so would not make you transition from Dash to Run.

    Wavedash dtilt: 14 frames startup (4 frames Kneebend, 10 frames LandingFallSpecial), medium range. High range variability (wavedash length scales with the control stick’s x value much more than dash speed). #It’s easy to be frame-perfect here. You can start holding strong down at any time from LandingFallSpecial 1-6 to get the dtilt (and not the dsmash). Weak down is also more viable here as you do not need to quickly move to it from strong down, which is a pretty hard thumb motion to do consistently.

    Dash-wavedash dtilt: 15 frames startup (1 frame Dash, 4 frames Kneebend, 10 frames LandingFallSpecial), highest range. Highest range variability (in addition to wd dtilt, you can also add a few frames Dash to further increase your range and still stay below the time necessary for run-cancel dtilt). #It’s easy to be frame-perfect here. The input is mostly the same as for wd dtilts, just with a dash at the beginning.

    Pivot dtilt: 5 frames startup (4 frames Dash, 1 frame Turn). Short range. Low range variability (dash for more frames if you want to go further. Can only be done out of a dash swipe that moves away from your dtilt direction). #Very hard to execute. During Dash, you need to go to strong back for exactly one frame to trigger Turn. For frame perfection, you need to press weak down +A on the very next frame.

    Edit: Proof that DWD moves further than run-cancel:
    [​IMG]
    This is an overlay of both techniques’ post-dtilt ECB²s, which are a great reference for positions.

    Even more information:
    [​IMG]

    ¹Strong inputs: can trigger dash, turn (pivot) and smashes. Weak inputs: can trigger tilts.
    ²Environment Collision Box, used for detecting landing, ceiling and wall collisions as well as pushing other players around.

     
    #585 Kadano, Mar 30, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2014
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  26. tauKhan

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    It seems that it's faster to come down from edges by edge-canceling jumpsquat than dashing / running of them. Is this really so?
    If it is, how many frames does marth save by coming down from battlefield sideplat via edge-canceled jump? I'm trying to evaluate whether it's worth it learning this.

    Edit: Propably just jumping causing me to actually have good ff timing.
     
    #586 tauKhan, Apr 2, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
  27. Kadano

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    @tauKhan: I don’t know what makes it seem like that to you. Transitioning from grounded to aerial by edge-canceling your Kneebend (jumpsquat) animation instead of simply dashing off does not increase your fall speed at all.
     
  28. AprilShaw

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    I know this seems random, but we have a very solid DK player in our region (Green Ranger). Is it possible to DI out of DK's upwards cargo throw -> fair at higher %s (above 70~80%)? He usually does it right after jumping if that makes a difference.

    Edit: I guess on the subject of DK, is there a guaranteed way to edgeguard him? I was having trouble both with off stage and on stage edgeguards
     
    #588 AprilShaw, Apr 2, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
  29. Bones0

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    You should ask on your character's specific forum (or the DK forums, but asking how to get out of a character's combo or something on that character's board is always kind of awkward lol).
     
  30. AprilShaw

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    I did... I'm a Marth player

    Edit: Let me clarify. Holding any one direction doesn't seem to be enough, nor does not DIing at all. If it's possible to get out at all (or DI into DK's meteor hitbox), it's going to be something reasonably complicated and/or change based on %. This seems like the proper thread to ask about those sorts of things.
     
    #590 AprilShaw, Apr 2, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
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  31. Bones0

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    Whoops, I thought I was in Melee Discussion, sorry. LOL

    I'm pretty sure it's guaranteed vs. most of the cast, including Marth. A commentator (who I believe is OTG) talks about it in this video but isn't sure if it works:

     
  32. Kadano

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    Cargo uthrow has 16 frames between release and first actionable frame (source is Magus420). This value is the same for every character as the throw’s animation speed is not weight-dependent.
    To calculate whether cuthrow → fair is a combo, we first need to compare its startup against the victim’s hitstun. If (hitstun) > (16+fair startup), it could be a guaranteed combo (we will further need to look at whether the victim is in range when the hitboxes are out, but let’s keep that for later).
    At 0% damage, cuthrow has 37 frames of hitstun. Thus, we have 37−16=21 frames for double jump and fair startup.
    Fair’s hitboxes are out from frame 25-29. (Taken from the DK Frame Data thread)
    Thus, it’s not a true combo at 0%. The victim has 5 frames to escape. This is enough for Marth’s airdodge to be intangible.

    Until 44%, you can fiddle around with your airdodge movement to escape his fair. From 58% on, no character can intercept.

    The 16 frames difference I mentioned earlier are also the frame window DK has to react to your DI and angle the double jump accordingly. 16 frames are well above the average human visual reaction time, so we have to expect DK players to be pretty much frame perfect on their execution.

    Also, I suspect DK can use different jump heights / timings to compensate for the different falling speeds of different characters, but I haven’t looked into this enough to be sure.
    I don’t think there is. If he goes high, your only reliable punishes are aerials, which don’t impress the heavy ape much. If he goes low, he can walljumptech-bair all your dtilt and fsmash attempts. (Not saying it’s a losing game for Marth, but when you see Marth players fail at edgeguarding DK indefinitely, I don’t think they could always keep them out until they die even if they did everything perfectly.)
     
    tm likes this.
  33. Life

    Life
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    Smash Hero

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    re: DK recovering low, is it possible to hit him with onstage dair? If so, what kind of margin of error is there? If not, how badly does DK have to miss the sweetspot in order for it to be a viable option?
     
  34. AprilShaw

    AprilShaw
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    Thanks Kadano <3 you're the best

    I tried this a bunch. If DK recovers low, he can "snap" to the ledge from a very large distance away. It seemed like nothing I did could hit him. I need to experiment more with grabbing the ledge and doing a ledgehop dair, but I couldn't get on stage dair to work once.
     
  35. SAUS

    SAUS
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    Can you jump off dair? You can also edge-hop dair without going onto the stage and still recover. If the timing is not too difficult (I really have no idea if it is or not), you could use this to get your spike hitbox pretty far off the stage where he'd either die or have to SDI a whole lot to tech. Just an idea.
     
  36. hectohertz

    hectohertz
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    if sheik does a ledgehop nair against marth's up-b, is it possible to ledge-tech? does this just require very good sdi?


    also, for sheik/marth, how much invincibilty are they are to get if they do (drop from ledge -> dj -> aerial). can they get a fully invincible aerial out? how safe is this (how many vulnerable frames would there be before a ledge regrab)?
     
  37. Kadano

    Kadano
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    The answer to this question depends on variables you haven’t specified: victim’s damage and distance between the victim and the wall.
    The latter subsequently depends on stage, starting position of up-B, up-B angle, position where Marth was hit by nair.

    They can get all aerials’ hitboxes out while they are still intangible. For every aerial, they are vulnerable for a few frames before they regrab the ledge. I’m not gonna look at every aerial and count the vulnerable frames right now, sorry. But if there are one or two for which it’s very important to you to know the exact value, I can research them.
     
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  38. hectohertz

    hectohertz
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    i'm most interested in what amount of invincibility marth/sheik have for drop -> (some combination of fair and dj) and then regrab ledge (since they both have fairs that hit above them). i'm wondering if it could be done somewhat safely with the combination of invincibility and staying under the stage
     
  39. Signia

    Signia
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    Smash Lord

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    Kadano, are you a warrior of hopeless situations or are you a situation-warrior that is hopeless? (see his title)
     
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  40. Kadano

    Kadano
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    The former.

    It’s just a term used in the famous Star Wars 3 mistranslation that seemed funny / important / fitting to me.
     
    #600 Kadano, Apr 6, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014

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