Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

[Kadano]

@ hectohertz : Exactly, you got everything right.

@ Bones0 : Yeah, I'm really happy with myself for figuring out this phenomenon. Although at this point I believe in a SWF Rule 34: "If you think you discover a new mechanism in Melee, you are guaranteed to find out Magus420 has explained it in full detail 8 years ago."

 

[hectohertz]

@ Kadano i'm practicing it right now (the easier method, where you hold the direction) and my consistency has already gone WAY up!

<3

 

[Nike.]

Hey Kadano, I saw your post on Marth's uthrow setups on Sheik and was wondering if you'd consider doing a similar spreadsheet on Falcon's uthrow/dthrow -> aerial setups against Marth. I know that nair, uair, and the dreaded knee are guaranteed at certain percents of certain throws, but I'm never sure which exacts percents I'm safe from them (assuming proper DI, which I always try to input and away). If it's not too draining of a task, I'd really appreciate the data on this.

 

[Kadano]

Hey Kadano, I saw your post on Marth's uthrow setups on Sheik and was wondering if you'd consider doing a similar spreadsheet on Falcon's uthrow/dthrow -> aerial setups against Marth. I know that nair, uair, and the dreaded knee are guaranteed at certain percents of certain throws, but I'm never sure which exacts percents I'm safe from them (assuming proper DI, which I always try to input and away). If it's not too draining of a task, I'd really appreciate the data on this.

http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...ars-stuff-thread.118998/page-88#post-10559985
This is his post he is referencing there: http://smashboards.com/threads/scar-talks-lean-melee-2012yotf.197123/page-134#post-8746843
Because the formatting got broken with a system software upgrade, I copied the text to a blog entry on the German Smash Boards: http://forum.germansmash.de/entry.php?120-Melee-Mechaniken-Referenz-1
It’s in the last spoiler.

 

[Vino]

Hey kadano, could you do the reverse of Nike's question, marth's setups on falcon? I know that d-throw can be used to tech-chase and f-throw after some percent, but will up-throw ever yield good follow ups?

 

[hufdvh]

If falco is firing sh lasers (as fast as is possible or near that speed) while I am on the ledge to prevent me from coming on (about a marth dtilt distance away), is there a window to do a wl on and utilt before getting hit by a laser?

 

[1MachGO]

Hey Kadano, is rising (immediate) SH fair > fastfall shorter in duration than rising SH fair > air dodge down? I imagine that the traditional fastfall method is faster but I wanted to know for sure.

 

[Bones0]

If falco is firing sh lasers (as fast as is possible or near that speed) while I am on the ledge to prevent me from coming on (about a marth dtilt distance away), is there a window to do a wl on and utilt before getting hit by a laser?

You can probably reach him with a LH fair, nair, uair, or you could just easily counter. If you ledgedash, the only attack you can use before your invincibility ends is jab or up-B (which has to be frame perfect, so you're basically never going to do it). If he is just lasering continuously and you time your LD, you can definitely go through the laser and utilt him before the next one.

 

[The Depths]

So I played a bit with a peach as my teammate and we noticed that sometimes I would grab and peach would dsmash our opponent and the dsmash didn't cause the grab to get broken, resulting in marth just holding falco while all of peach's dsmash connects. I was wondering if someone has the knowledge to explain this. I'm thinking it probably has to do with peach's dsmash being staled. Also, I've only seen this while grabbing someone with marth, which is why I posted it here >_>.

Anyway @ vino once falcon is mid/high % uthrow fair and stuff like that seems to connect pretty consistently. Specifics are always appreciated though.

 

[Bones0]

So I played a bit with a peach as my teammate and we noticed that sometimes I would grab and peach would dsmash our opponent and the dsmash didn't cause the grab to get broken, resulting in marth just holding falco while all of peach's dsmash connects. I was wondering if someone has the knowledge to explain this. I'm thinking it probably has to do with peach's dsmash being staled. Also, I've only seen this while grabbing someone with marth, which is why I posted it here >_>.

Anyway @ vino once falcon is mid/high % uthrow fair and stuff like that seems to connect pretty consistently. Specifics are always appreciated though.

I'd imagine the opponent's percent is going to matter way more than whether or not the dsmash is staled.

 

[The Depths]

Yes I thought so too. I'm just wondering if someone knows exactly how it works so I might be able to replicate it a bit in teams. Also exact percents on fthrow follow ups vs peach and marth would be super awesome.

 

[FlamingForce]

So as a jiggs player I must ask, is it possible to DI his throws in such a way that the only follow up Marth can go for (at 90%) is dair? The colored octagon images are a little confusing to me.

 

[1MachGO]

So as a jiggs player I must ask, is it possible to DI his throws in such a way that the only follow up Marth can go for (at 90%) is dair? The colored octagon images are a little confusing to me.

I believe that it sort of works like this:

If Marth can't reach her with fsmash, usmash will work, and if he can't reach her with usmash, then dair will work.

 

[FlamingForce]

I believe that it sort of works like this:

If Marth can't reach her with fsmash, usmash will work, and if he can't reach her with usmash, then dair will work.

I play PAL so getting hit by dair is, by far, the option I'd most prefer to get smacked by.

 

[1MachGO]

I play PAL so getting hit by dair is, by far, the option I'd most prefer to get smacked by.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear in my last post. If you DI so fsmash won't hit, you'll set up for usmash. The only way to avoid usmash is if there physically isn't enough stage for Marth to perform it (as a result, dair becomes a suitable replacement). This means that its impossible to reduce Marth's follow up options to aerials unless he intentionally throws you off stage. However, the good news for you (as a PAL player) is that Marths will be less likely to throw you towards the ledge which should reduce a lot of the potential mix ups.

 

[Kadano]

So as a jiggs player I must ask, is it possible to DI his throws in such a way that the only follow up Marth can go for (at 90%) is dair? The colored octagon images are a little confusing to me.

No, that is not possible. On paper, your best DI option is up and behind (140°-160° when Marth faces right during grab) as that escapes his easiest options: fthrow pivot fsmash and fthrow wd fsmash.
However, he still has three options to beat that DI. On the diagram, these are 2, 5 and 7.
2 is dthrow pivot fsmash, so not even PAL gives you a true escape.

 

[FlamingForce]

No, that is not possible. On paper, your best DI option is up and behind (140°-160° when Marth faces right during grab) as that escapes his easiest options: fthrow pivot fsmash and fthrow wd fsmash.
However, he still has three options to beat that DI. On the diagram, these are 2, 5 and 7.
2 is dthrow pivot fsmash, so not even PAL gives you a true escape.

God I ****ing hate that character.

Oh well, thx for the info!

 

[Kadano]

God I ****ing hate that character.

Okay … you can go away now.

 

[Bones0]

Complaining about complex pivot tipper fsmash flowcharts based on DI mixups when your character can carry Marth off stage with a single move the same way every time...

 

[FlamingForce]

I don't recall complaining, just expressing my dislike at a mu I currently struggle with.

I suppose asking for information and trying to learn this complex info in order to get better at said mu is complaining to some folks.

 

[Bones0]

I don't recall complaining

...

God I ****ing hate that character.

 

[FlamingForce]

I suppose we'll just agree to disagree there, not liking a certain mu or character is not complaining if you ask me, you seem to think otherwise.

 

[Bones0]

I suppose we'll just agree to disagree there, not liking a certain mu or character is not complaining if you ask me, you seem to think otherwise.

complain:
Express dissatisfaction or annoyance about a state of affairs or an event.

 

[Kadano]

For the record, I took FlamingForce’s post as humorous self-irony. As in “Marth used to be so easy to just crouch under and rest, now that people are creating new strategies against me, I’ll have to work hard to still beat them although I’d rather stay lazy.”
I thought it was funny to act on this hinch from the “refining Marth technically to improve his matchups” persona I have cultivated here and pretend to dislike him on such an irrelevant conflict. Maybe his complain was genuine and not self-irony, but I still like the idea of it.

But anyway, sidetracked posts like these are something that I still want to avoid. Humorous posts by Umbreon can be read in PP’s thread without end, so I propose shifting focus back to Marth’s Melee mechanics here.
Not that you ever see me speaking out against humor, but I have the impression that’s not where this discussion is headed any longer.

 

[FlamingForce]

Well that was the kind of post I went for but in return I did actually take your post as a serious "Ok this guy is clearly salty gtfo" type of deal.

I guess this kinda stuff just doesn't work through text.

complain:
Express dissatisfaction or annoyance about a state of affairs or an event.

Kinda like ppl who cant sdi bair amirite.

 

[Bones0]

Kinda like ppl who cant sdi bair amirite.

Except I didn't go on the Puff boards and moan about it. I just used it as a comparison to show how petty your complaint was. Puff bair chains don't bother me in the slightest.

 

[SAUS]

Does dair into grab work as marth (as in, is it inescapable if I have a specific timing on the dair)? I mostly mean at low percent where their character doesn't leave the ground. If you want a specific number, lets say 0%. I would like to know mostly for spacies, but if it works differently for other characters, that'd be good info too. For example, if their character is heavier, will they be stunned less by the dair? Thanks.

 

[Bones0]

Does dair into grab work as marth (as in, is it inescapable if I have a specific timing on the dair)? I mostly mean at low percent where their character doesn't leave the ground. If you want a specific number, lets say 0%. I would like to know mostly for spacies, but if it works differently for other characters, that'd be good info too. For example, if their character is heavier, will they be stunned less by the dair? Thanks.

It depends on how long it takes you to land after the dair connects and the character's weight. As long as you aren't above SH height and FF properly, it usually combos on spacies. You can go into Training Mode and try comboing into utilt. It's slightly faster than grab, but it will at least give you a good idea of how long they are stunned for. Maybe Marth has a move that actually hits frame 7 to test properly (ftilt?).

 

[The Depths]

Dair to grab is Marth's optimal rest punish on jiggly at 0. It works in most situations in which you would want to use it as long as your timing is legit.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Hey, Kadano, could you post a picture of Marth's item-grab hitboxes? (both grounded and airborne)

And just to double check I'm not crazy, you press A to catch it on the ground, and Z to catch it in the air, right?

 

[hectohertz]

Kadano:
1) from reading this (http://www.ssbwiki.com/Perfect_shield) I know if you PS an attack, you can interrupt the GuardOff animation. I've heard mixed things on if you can interrupt it with grab. Can you clarify? and is this any faster than a regular (not PS) shield grab?

2) also, if I'm understanding correctly, there is no speed advantage to jumping (and so also WD, aerial OOS, etc) from a PS vs a normal shield (since you can jump OOS without triggering GuardOff). the speed advantage would be that you can do a tilt or smash out of shield without having to go through the full guard-off animation. is this correct?

3) can you give me percent ranges for when you should pummel (0,1,2,3) times, assuming that the other player is mashing at a "good" speed (fast, but not TAS fast)

 

[Bones0]

Kadano:
1) from reading this (http://www.ssbwiki.com/Perfect_shield) I know if you PS an attack, you can interrupt the GuardOff animation. I've heard mixed things on if you can interrupt it with grab. Can you clarify? and is this any faster than a regular (not PS) shield grab?

2) also, if I'm understanding correctly, there is no speed advantage to jumping (and so also WD, aerial OOS, etc) from a PS vs a normal shield (since you can jump OOS without triggering GuardOff). the speed advantage would be that you can do a tilt or smash out of shield without having to go through the full guard-off animation. is this correct?

3) can you give me percent ranges for when you should pummel (0,1,2,3) times, assuming that the other player is mashing at a "good" speed (fast, but not TAS fast)

I already told you the answer to 2 and half of 1. lol You can't shield release until shield stun ends so anything involving grabbing or jumping isn't faster out of shield release. You can just test grabbing by PSing a CPU Falcon's Raptor Boost/Falcon Punch, though I'm pretty sure you'll just Z-shield.

 

[Kadano]

1. Yes, you can. No advantage though, as Bones0 explained.

2. Correct.

3. I'm at MikeHaggar's place right now and don't have my Dolphin setup with me, so I can't give accurate figures. I guess from about 30% on a single pummel is moderately safe, 60% for two and so on.

 

[Tee ay eye]

kadano senpai didn't notice me

 

[hectohertz]

1. Yes, you can. No advantage though, as Bones0 explained.

2. Correct.

3. I'm at MikeHaggar's place right now and don't have my Dolphin setup with me, so I can't give accurate figures. I guess from about 30% on a single pummel is moderately safe, 60% for two and so on.

as always thanks kadano
and whenever you are back at the lab, i'm quite curious about those figures, as i've been told all sorts of radically different figures for how many pummels are safe

 

[xCardiac]

Do all of the hit boxes in Marth's DB3 downward variation send the opponent downwards? I'd sure love to jump off the edge and land one of these bad boys.

I noticed there's a hit box* behind Marth during his dash grab... Can Marth actually grab someone while they're behind him during a dash grab?

Could you upload a .gif showing the hit boxes in Marth's dash attack cancelled grab?

Thanks, Kadano, you're literally a God.

 

[Bones0]

Do all of the hit boxes in Marth's DB3 downward variation send the opponent downwards? I'd sure love to jump off the edge and land one of these bad boys.

I noticed there's a hit box* behind Marth during his dash grab... Can Marth actually grab someone while they're behind him during a dash grab?

Could you upload a .gif showing the hit boxes in Marth's dash attack cancelled grab?

Thanks, Kadano, you're literally a God.

1. I'm pretty sure they do.

2. If their hurtbox overlaps with either hitbox, they will get grabbed.

3. The hitboxes in Marth's boost grab are the same as his dash grab. The DA simply makes the animation preceding the grab look different than a regular run.

 

[Kadano]

kadano senpai didn't notice me

I did, but I didn't bring a debug setup with me to Sweden. To answer your second question: Yes, you got that right.

 

[Tee ay eye]

ah, okay

take your time then

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Hey, Kadano, could you post a picture of Marth's item-grab hitboxes? (both grounded and airborne)

And just to double check I'm not crazy, you press A to catch it on the ground, and Z to catch it in the air, right?

I am not Kadano, but perhaps it will prove helpful.

I just did some random testing with Debug mode and stumbled upon this. So, unless the white box and red boxes have other functions as well they completely line up with what I was testing; which was the grab detection of items. So, it seems like when throwing objects they have their own detection. Only when the object to be thrown lines up with the characters collision will you be able to grab the item. This white box stays fixed as the character moves. However, the character's hurtbox is free to change in relation to the white box. For example,, when marth runs forward he less disjoint for grabbing items compared to when he is standing still in front of him.

Although, there is the peculiar effect that the item grab range grows bigger as it is thrown between characters. The result is that the moment an item is thrown Marth can grab it from half the stage away lol

So yeah. Here is the grab range from the air I assume. I am not certain how to get around the fact that the debug mode uses Z to frame advance and uses Z to grab in the air. I was not able to prove it by testing though.

Here is the size of the turnip at normal plucking. Other items have various sizes around them. The Bom-omb for example is roughly a square the size of the bob-omb and not any larger.