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Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

Discussion in 'Marth' started by Kadano, Jun 7, 2013.

  1. Tee ay eye

    Tee ay eye
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    questions

    1. kadano, do you know of the most efficient tools to cover DI/tech options on the top platform?

    2. i found your % analysis of uthrow vs sheik and marth to be pretty fascinating/enlightening. do you know what other characters marth should have similar-ish reliable punishes on?

    i'm particularly interested in pikachu, young link, samus, doc/mario, and peach.
     
  2. AprilShaw

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    Obviously not Kadano, but I've been messing around with timing my double jump to get a no lag landing on the top platform. To see how it works, try an instant double jump under the side platform of Dreamland or Battlefield. It has 0 frames of lag if you space it right (there will be no shockwave effect when you land), which makes the tech chase easy, or lets you follow up with an up tilt or something. It can be pretty difficult to use sometimes though.
     
  3. Bones0

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    Only in AZ... lol
     
    tm likes this.
  4. Druggedfox

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    Kadano, can I ask how throw staling affects the combos/percentage ranges you posted for upthrow on sheik?
     
  5. Kadano

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    Yes, it’s full jump for approximately 16 frames (the exact value depends on platform height and how long the teching character has been colliding with the ground) to tech-choice-react to double jump uair.
    Tech-choice reactions:
    1. No tech and tech in place: Immediately do a neutral (no horizontal movement) double jump uair.
    2. Techroll in the direction you are looking: Do an immediate or slightly delayed forward double jump uair. Hold back after you did the dj to ensure you don’t miss the platform so you can get the followup (tipper fsmash for spacies)..
    3. Techroll behind you: Wait until the apex of your jump, might have to hold backwards during these frames so that uair doesn’t whiff. Fastfall for 1-3 frames. Then, do the dj uair.

    The reaction frame window to tell what passive option the victim used is at least 10 frames, so it should be feasible with visual reaction.
    Uthrow → uair (low% full jump, mid% full jump → double jump) on Pikachu seems to connect from 0 to 65%. It’s not always a true combo, but Pikachu only has one or two actionable frames at most before uair connects, and I don’t think there’s anything he could do to intercept.
    Didn’t test the other characters yet.

    The knockback reduction from staling is negligible. If your upthrow is staled quite a lot so that it does 3 damage instead of 4, then the knockback for Sheik in the table is also reduced by 1 damage.
    In other words, non-stale uthrow on Sheik at 17% will do just as much knockback and thus hitstun as a moderately stale uthrow on Sheik at 18%.
     
    #605 Kadano, Apr 7, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  6. Druggedfox

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    Thanks!

    10 chars
     
  7. Tee ay eye

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    all DIs or just neutral DI?
     
  8. Kadano

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    I only tested neutral. I doubt left/ right DI lets Pikachu escape, but I'll look into it when I'm home.
     
  9. DJ _ICE

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    Kadano likes this.
  10. Kadano

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    Hey, thank you. I added it to the section. I often lose track of my contributions … semantic web, where are you?
     
  11. Tee ay eye

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    a few more questions (<3 you kadano)

    1. were you gonna complete that percent analysis of uthrow uair on marth that you started a while back?

    2. could you briefly describe (or post pics) of how you execute uthrow uair at lower percentages at various DIs? for example, i have trouble recognizing how i can land uthrow uair in marth dittos at 13% or in marth vs pikachu at 0%, especially with all the DI angles.

    3. this question may be hard to answer, but how often (in general) do you have to use uthrow fair and uthrow bair? your flowchart vs marth illustrated that you're able to cover most things in marth dittos from 13 - 63% by doing uthrow uair alone, with the only exception being 30-35%, where you have to do FH bair if they DI behind you. however, your percentage flowchart for sheik seemed a lot more complex.

    i don't expect you to go out and do percent analysis for every character or anything like that, but what other characters are like this? what other characters can marth get guaranteed (or semi guaranteed) uthrow uairs on, and when exactly does he have to do stuff like fair and bair?

    4. yesterday you told me that marth can cover top platform techs by waiting in his fullhop and then reacting to their tech option. what stage(s) does that work on?
     
    #611 Tee ay eye, Apr 8, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  12. Kadano

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    Not in plain text. There are too many dependencies to explain in detail. I would have to use too many words to keep you interested. I might do a flowchart with screenshots or something similar.
    For example: At 13%, uthrow full jump uair is guaranteed on neutral DI. If you go for a neutral full jump, you will tipper the victim Marth if he tries to jump out, but you will land a sourspot if he doesn’t try to jump out.
    You can do a backwards full jump instead, which will always tipper him on neutral DI at 13%. Even if he tries to jump out as soon as possible with a forward double jump away from you.
    This comes with the disadvantage of moving away from him, so you’re unlikely to convert from the backwards full jump tipper uair.

    During your uthrow lag, you have to look at the victim’s fly curve and tell whether he did neutral / forward / backward DI. Then, do an immediate full jump uair and during jumpsquat hold the direction he DI’d in.
    This works at some percentages, at others you have to dash 1-3 frames and/or do a fair / bair instead of uair.

    Most of the time, uair works. For Sheik, you never need fair/bair iirc, it’s due to her higher falling speed which makes her fall into your utilt range.

    In general, you can connect with full jump aerials against every character with low weight and high falling speed.
    Yesterday, I worked with Fox on Battlefield at roughly 60% out of a tipper uair. It probably works on every stage, just with different timings and percent ranges.
     
  13. Vivec

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    What does the hit box for Marth's counter look like when it makes contact? I can't seem to find any images or videos that show it.
     
  14. Kadano

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    [​IMG]
    Click on the gif for gfycat frame-by-frame playback. I also started uploading .mkvs, so the gfycat verstion also has proper colors for what it’s worth.

    Edit: Hmm, apparently gfycat downsamples 60fps video to 13fps .gifs … intolerable. I guess I’ll have to sacrifice superior colors for proper .gifs.

    Edit2: Here is the 60fps .gif:
    [​IMG]
     
    #614 Kadano, Apr 9, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
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  15. Tee ay eye

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    what would you do on YS and FoD? would it be better to fullhop, fall a bit, and then wait there? or would it be better to just wait in your shorthop instead? i just tested it a bit today, and you can wait in your SH and then use your second jump to get onto the platform, but i didn't know if it would decrease his effective range and make the techchase a lot harder/less guaranteed
     
  16. Kadano

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    On YS and FoD, short hop is much better. Lagless landing (full jump for 4 frames, then double jump) is often fast enough so that you can cover every tech option on reaction.
    For the timing, you want to start the jump just before the victim makes ground contact. If you want to go for a lagless land, you need to do it immediately. Otherwise, you can’t cover tech in place in time.
     
  17. Bones0

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    Does anyone remember if there was a post explaining how hitting spacies out of their side-Bs works? I think Kadano posted one, but I can't remember or find it.
     
  18. Emrys

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    It's actually in the first post of this thread, just ctrl. F and search for Illusion.
     
    Kadano and Bones0 like this.
  19. Kadano

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    Responding to your post from almost a year ago because I might have found a counter to firestalling.
    To put this in perspective, let me first give you an analysis of Fox’s firestall.

    Amount of intangibility left after CliffWait 0 (the last frame of ledgegrab lag): 29 frames.
    Disabled regrab period: 29 frames, starting to count as soon as you drop from the ledge.
    ⇒ To stay continuously intangible, it’s absolutely necessary for Fox to drop from the ledge after CliffWait 0 (and before CliffWait 1). The amount of frames he waits in CliffWait is also the minimum amount of vulnerable frames before his ledge regrab. So if he drops after CliffWait 4 and does the rest of the firestall perfectly, he will be vulnerable for 4 frames before he grabs the ledge again.

    Up-B (Firefox) falling start: frame 16 (308 16 ). On frames 1-15, Fox stays at the same height, so he can never grab the ledge during these frames. On frame 16, he starts to fall down.
    Up-B (Firefox) hitbox active: from frame 20 on.

    ⇒ If Fox lets go of the ledge after CliffWait 0 and immediately starts his up-B, he grabs the ledge again after frame 29 of his up-B. Because he starts falling as early as after frame 15, he can also waste up to 14 frames doing whatever he wants after the ledgedrop and before his up-B, as long as his ledgegrab box overlaps with the ledge again by the time his up-B starts.

    One way to use up these leniency frames is to do a shine-firestall. This has the advantage of getting another hitbox out and delaying the frame where Fox needs to decide his direction.
    He can also fastfall for a few frames, shine down there, jump back up within these 14 frames. I will add animations of the very extremes he can go later.

    To go back from Fox to Marth,I'm pretty sure that there is no one way that defeats all of Fox's firestall variations. But I did find a tool that defeats some of them: Counter.
    If Fox opts for the ledgedrop -> instant Firefox ledgestall, with less than two frames of falling between ledgedrop and up-B, his frame 20 hitbox will be high enough to activate your Counter if you stand directly above him. Your Counter hitboxes also reach down far enough to hit him.
    During Counter's pseudo-hitlag, the intangibility timer keeps running, so Fox runs out of his intangiblility frames before your hitbox comes out.
    Thus, a firestall that would have been continuously intangible loses this continuity due to the Counter hit.

    It is also possible to run off and go for an off-stage Counter to catch lower firestalls as well, but I heavily doubt that it's worth the risk of getting shined. Also, even if you get the hit, Fox can easily walljumptech it and shine you afterwards.

    In the OP of this thread, under Fox > Hitting out of side-B, I cover low attempts. I wrote some posts about high side-Bs starting here: http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...rs-stuff-thread.118998/page-330#post-15654223
     
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  20. TheCrimsonBlur

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    ^really really cool.

    I'm not sure how you'd ever get in position to do that, with the threat of the ledgedash, but hey, its something.
     
    #620 TheCrimsonBlur, Apr 10, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
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  21. Tee ay eye

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    do you have a gifs of marth's throw hit/hurtboxes? i'm interested in learning the timing on throw invincibility and using his throw arms to hit people in teams/ice climbers
     
    #621 Tee ay eye, Apr 10, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
  22. Kadano

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    Run up to their ledge and do the Counter straight out of it, when you are very close to it. You will slide quite a far distance, so you can easily make sure that you don’t miss the “sweetspot”.

    If you are standing at center stage (a few steps towards them from the horizontal center), you need to start dashing at more or less frame 16-20 of their up-B so that your Counter comes out in time to connect with the next firestall.
    Fox has more than 20 frames to react to your approach. Still, Counter covers quite a bit of their options. They can beat it by using a lower firestall variation, but imho this is really hard to do consistently.
    If you try this often, they will likely just keep hanging from the ledge and punish your lag with ledgehop uair. You can probably prevent this by doing an occasional dtilt that would punish these attempts.

    No, and because the throw timing, and with it release / hitbox frames, depend on the weight of the thrown character, I don’t think creating them would be of much use.

    The first 8 frames of every throw are invincible.
    Against another Marth, these are the frames on which the thrown hitbox (placed at the victim’s chest bone) comes out:
    Bthrow 7
    Uthrow 11
    Dthrow 13
    Fthrow 13
     
    #622 Kadano, Apr 10, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
  23. AprilShaw

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    Is something similar possible for Sheik's up B stall? My gut instinct is no if she sweet spots, but it would certainly be cool.
     
  24. tm

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    Damn, that is really cool that you found that out.
     
  25. Tee ay eye

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    lol *facepalm* duh

    can't believe i forgot about that
     
  26. Tee ay eye

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    how long does 1 cycle take? like, it says you can FF on any of frame from 30-35, but on what frame exactly would you actually *catch* the ledge again?
     
  27. Kadano

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    No, because Sheik’s up-B is detached from her and cannot make her go in hitlag.
    You get quite the reverse effect you have on Fox’s up-B. You will enter these freeze frames and put her explosion projectile in hitlag, while she can grab the ledge. During the hitlag, you and the projectile are frozen, but Sheik is free to do anything. I elaborated on when countering Sheik’s up-B can still be beneficial a few pages back.

    Disabled regrab period is 29 frames, starting on the drop from the ledge. Add to this the 8 frames of forced lag on ledgegrab and you get 37 for the total iteration / cycle length.
    On every frame from 30 to 35, fastfalling will make you grab the ledge exactly on frame 38 (frame 1 of the next cycle).
     
    #627 Kadano, Apr 11, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2014
  28. AprilShaw

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    How interesting. Of course, you can't shine/bucket/power shield reflect her explosion right?
     
  29. Kadano

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    No, that’s not possible. “Projectile” was an incorrect term. The Vanish hitbox is as detached from its owner as a projectile hitbox, but otherwise, it has no projectile properties.
     
  30. Tee ay eye

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    what guaranteed throw followups does marth have on falcon?
     
  31. He-Man1

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    how big is the window for grabbing falco out of his ledgehop double laser? (how many frames of leniency)
     
  32. Druggedfox

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    Guaranteed throw followups on falcon will be funny. I'm pretty sure you have almost no true ones on good DIs, but like a million pseudo combos that he can't get out of lmao

    *waits for kadano*
     
  33. Kadano

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    If “guaranteed” implies “one input cain that catches every possible DI option / combination”: None.
    You know what’s up, haha.

    The rest of this post will look into what’s possible when you also allow things that only work on some %-DI-combinations.
    Uthrow against CF puts you at −34 by the time you are actionable.
    At 0% before uthrow, CF will be in hitstun for 34 frames as well. Here is a uthrow frame advantage chart for the four most popular character weights:

    ╔══════════╤═══════════╤═══════════╤═══════════╤═══════════╤═══════════╗
    ║Frames of │... Damage │104W Frame │ 90W Frame │ 80W Frame │ 75W Frame ║
    ║. Hitstun │before hit │ advantage │ advantage │ advantage │ advantage ║
    ╟──────────┼───────────┼───────────┼───────────┼───────────┼───────────╢
    ║...... 33 │....... −1 │....... −1 │........ 3 │........ 7 │........ 8 ║
    ║...... 34 │.... 0 - 3 │........ 0 │........ 4 │........ 8 │........ 9 ║
    ║...... 35 │.... 4 - 8 │........ 1 │........ 5 │........ 9 │........10 ║
    ║...... 36 │.... 9- 12 │........ 2 │........ 6 │........10 │........11 ║
    ║...... 37 │... 13- 17 │........ 3 │........ 7 │........11 │........12 ║
    ║...... 38 │... 18- 21 │........ 4 │........ 8 │........12 │........13 ║
    ║...... 39 │... 22- 26 │........ 5 │........ 9 │........13 │........14 ║
    ║...... 40 │... 27- 30 │........ 6 │....... 10 │....... 14 │....... 15 ║
    ║...... 41 │... 31- 35 │........ 7 │....... 11 │....... 15 │....... 16 ║
    ║...... 42 │... 36- 40 │........ 8 │....... 12 │....... 16 │....... 17 ║
    ║...... 43 │... 41- 44 │........ 9 │....... 13 │....... 17 │....... 18 ║
    ║...... 44 │... 45- 49 │....... 10 │....... 14 │....... 18 │....... 19 ║
    ║...... 45 │... 50- 53 │....... 11 │....... 15 │....... 19 │....... 20 ║
    ║...... 46 │... 54- 58 │....... 12 │....... 16 │....... 20 │....... 21 ║
    ║...... 47 │... 59- 63 │....... 13 │....... 17 │....... 21 │....... 22 ║
    ║...... 48 │... 64- 67 │....... 14 │....... 18 │....... 22 │....... 23 ║
    ║...... 49 │... 68- 72 │....... 15 │....... 19 │....... 23 │....... 24 ║
    ║...... 50 │... 73- 76 │....... 16 │....... 20 │....... 24 │....... 25 ║
    ║...... 51 │... 77- 81 │....... 17 │....... 21 │....... 25 │....... 26 ║
    ║...... 52 │... 82- 85 │....... 18 │....... 22 │....... 26 │....... 27 ║
    ║...... 53 │... 86- 90 │....... 19 │....... 23 │....... 27 │....... 28 ║
    ║...... 54 │... 91- 95 │....... 20 │....... 24 │....... 28 │....... 29 ║
    ║...... 55 │... 96- 99 │....... 21 │....... 25 │....... 29 │....... 30 ║
    ║...... 56 │.. 100-104 │....... 22 │....... 26 │....... 30 │....... 31 ║
    ║...... 57 │...105-108 │....... 23 │....... 27 │....... 31 │....... 32 ║
    ║...... 58 │...109-113 │....... 24 │....... 28 │....... 32 │....... 33 ║
    ║...... 59 │...114-117 │....... 25 │....... 29 │....... 33 │....... 34 ║
    ║...... 60 │...118-122 │....... 26 │....... 30 │....... 34 │....... 35 ║
    ║...... 61 │...123-127 │....... 27 │....... 31 │....... 35 │....... 36 ║
    ║...... 62 │...128-131 │....... 28 │....... 32 │....... 36 │....... 37 ║
    ║...... 63 │...132-136 │....... 29 │....... 33 │....... 37 │....... 38 ║
    ║...... 64 │...137-140 │....... 30 │....... 34 │....... 38 │....... 39 ║
    ╚══════════╧═══════════╧═══════════╧═══════════╧═══════════╧═══════════╝

    FAQ:
    1. “−1 damage before hit? How is that supposed to be possible?”
    ⇒ The calculation actually works with damage
    after hit. I decided to go for before because it’s more useful. When you uthrow somebody, you usually look at their percentage before you throw them.The notable difference between after and before is staling. A staled uthrow at 0% does 3% damage instead of 4, so I decided to denote this as “−1 damage before hit”.

    2. “What does the »90W« etc. stand for?
    Character weight.

    3. “How does that answer TAI’s question about uthrow followups on CF?”
    ⇒ CF has a weight of 104, so it at least tells you your frame advantage at any given percent. Apart from that, this chart doesn’t tell you anything. Uthrow followups depend on way too many variables to be depicted in such a simple flat chart.


    0%-17%
    At very low %, you can’t hit CF before he lands on the ground. If you let that happen, he has three options: 1. tech (no tech / tech in place / techroll F/B), 2. mash during tumble to empty land, 3. jump out.
    Waiting and reacting to his option will catch 1 (⇒ techchase) and 3 (⇒ utilt), but not 2 (he can jab or grab you before you can react to his landing).
    Utilt will catch 2 and 3, but not 1. It also doesn’t catch backwards DI on 2 and 3. If it does catch 3, however, you can convert into more utilts, eventually grab and do nice things like uair to him until he dies.
    Side-B will catch 3, but not 1 or 2.

    All in all, I believe his empty land → grab is too much of a threat to attempt uthrow that early. I’d rather go for dthrow and techchase, but I haven’t looked into the necessary reactions and reaction times yet.

    18%-26%
    Here, you will only miss one or two frames to bring out side-B in time. If he opts for no DI, it will hit him regardless of whether he tries to jump out or not. If he DI’s left or right, it will whiff.
    If you happen to land the first hit, you can follow up into a death combo, but he can DI out at almost every hit. I still made an animation so that you know what you can do to Falcons who don’t DI:
    [Note while writing this post: This is the first gif animation that takes a really long time to encode. Maybe I should switch to a different file format, I don’t think .gif was intended for 480p60 video segments. Unfortunately, gfycat did a really bad job at downconverting h264 to .gif so far, so until smashboards’ admins decide to implement direct h264 hosting (that is, if they ever do; their reaction in the suggestion thread didn’t seem like it …), I don’t see a better choice.
    This .gif is 25MB btw]

    [​IMG]
    If he DI’s in the direction you are facing, you can tipper utilt him into a regrab. On DI behind you, this is not possible.

    27%-30%
    Here, you can still do the side-B thingy and will also cover horizontal DI on the uthrow. If CF keeps DI’ing the side-B slashes, only the first one will hit, so it’s by no means guaranteed. (This is true for 18-26% as well, of course.)
    You can also regrab within this percent range unless CF DI’s behind you.

    (There is more stuff, but I gotta go, so this will have to do for now)
     
    #633 Kadano, Apr 11, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2014
    Guzzler Guzzler, tm and Druggedfox like this.
  34. Bones0

    Bones0
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    Smash Legend

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    Can Marth shieldgrab Falco's spaced ftilt?
     
  35. Druggedfox

    Druggedfox
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    Smash Champion

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    Probably with shield SDI, but otherwise no.

    I'm really looking forward to more marth on falcon stuff, i've been wondering what the pseudo combos were for a long, long time. I'm pretty sure you can do stuff with upthrow-->aerial that guaranteed catches his jump vs no jump, but it's very % specific and I don't have a means to test it.
     
  36. AprilShaw

    AprilShaw
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    aka Logan

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    What's the window for reacting to techs on dthrow/bthrow/fthrow (against, say, Falcon, at low-mid %s)? Is there any merit to trying to do Sheik style tech chasing?
     
  37. Tee ay eye

    Tee ay eye
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    i kinda felt like he didn't have any guaranteed followups, but i just thought there were some things i just didnt know about.

    so there are NO percentages where uthrow utilt or uthrow sh uair are completly guaranteed?
     
  38. DJ _ICE

    DJ _ICE
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    Kadano, heard of WebM? Works like .gif but is much higher quality and much overall filesize, check it out.

    Also that gif is awesome
     
  39. Kadano

    Kadano
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    Magical Express

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    Yeah, but how can I embed that here with 60 fps?
     
  40. Bones0

    Bones0
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    No higher quality GIFs, please. I already have to wait a full minute for each GIF to load. -.-
     

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