K rool is a garbage low midtier

Agree?

  • Yes

  • No (please reply why)


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The one thing King K. Rool unquestionably does far better than anything else is just... survive. Even with the ridiculous abuse he can take at times, it arguably takes more effort to put him down for good than any other fighter. Bowser and especially DK can be prone to getting spiked to an early death, but not K. Rool. He may take some damage but very few characters can reliably spike through his propeller, and those stage spikes aren't going to kill him until obscene percents anyway. This can let him play a long game to download his opponent's habits with his crownerang and foxtrot, plus blunderbuss in ledge scenarios.

I like to see him as a Ridley that trades off some offensive pressure for bulk & defence. Both require a keen awareness of your opponent's habits and shifting your playstyle to match in order to succeed, which unfortunately also makes them difficult to use and unpopular in a game with over 70 characters that makes it easier to just pick two specialists to cover your bases.
I disagree, k.rool's recovery is extremely linear(honestly it'd help if he could just cancel it early so recovering on stage isn't always suicide and also so he isn't always forced to recover low) and after the nerf to it's propeller hitbox a lot of characters can just straight up spike it.
 
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MERPIS

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So uh I looked into each of K Rool's moves and I kinda have a few ideas for some I think need tweaking.
Jab, more range, that's it.
Dash attack should have much less endlag.
Starting with dtilt, this move is a MESS. Frame 12 for a tiny hitbox on a big boy, the sourspot is where it should not be which means the sweetspot is horribly small, sure it leads into a decent reward if you hit it at like 85-90% but its terrible outside of that, I hope that the sourspot would be given some true combo potential possibly into upair, the aerial sweetspot should meteor, and the move as a whole should be given a much bigger sweetspot, one that actually covers the whole foot.
Next is utilt, the only thing I think needs tweaking is the knockback of the sourspot, it should do a bit more damage and knockback to maybe kill at like, 140%? Other than that this move is good.
Nair, oh boy, well first off that sweetspot duration is nasty, the landing lag is nasty. Instead of coming out for a single frame, the sweetspot should be active for maybe 3 frames, the landing lag, it should have 9 frames or so, basically a discount dedede nair.
Forward air, maybe just a slightly faster start up (frame 8??) and less landing lag, 10 frames or so instead of 11, this move is great imo its a faster bowser fair
Back air is perfect, no changes here.
Down air should autocan from a short hop, the meteor is surprisingly weak for a heavyweight dair, if it autocancels it can combo and that's fun.
Up air...Just short hop autocancel window, that's it the move isn't good for much tbh just a situational kil option.

In terms of special moves...
Neutral B, the move can be slow, just give it the treatment of bowser jr's canon and let him have more than one Kannon ball out at once, also maybe make the move come out faster too.
Crown, oh boy, that move should not only come out faster, but also have much MUCH less endlag, and the animation where K rool puts the krown on his head should definitely be cancellable through basic movement, the crown itself should be faster and have a bit bigger of a hitbox, also it should nullify opponent projectiles, just because why not.
propellerpack, the horizontal movement in the air should be buffed a little, that's it, also it should rise faster.
Down b...I don't think you can save it, maybe decrease the endlag of a successful counter by 20 or so frames, like there's no reason for the counter to be slow when you can only counter on one side, the endlag of the unsuccessful variant should also be tweaked, but maybe by 15 frames.

Throws??
His overall grab should have a massive range buff, currently it's like ganons in smash 4.
Up throw, make it kill at a good percent it's already the move damaging throw in the game not counting lucario's stupidity, so to have it kill at like 140 or 150 would make it seem as strong as it is damaging.
Dthrow is okay surprisingly, the kill power off of dthrow to true combo ftilt or utilt can't be ignored and those become unescapable even to a level 9 cpu at 130%
Bthrow, more kill power, maybe more along the lines of mario bthrow, that's it.
Fthrow, less knockback and less endlag, this way it can actually combo better into dash attack.

Ok now for mechanics...
I think his airspeed should be much higher, like ROB level, this would let him weave in and out with those aerials
His run speed, should be buffed to be about maybe snake or even maybe peach level, he can't keep up with fast opponents at all.
His armor is also really really bad, seeing as how fast his armor can break against characters like lucina and chrom, I propose that the total threshold of damage it can take goes from 28% to like, I want to say 45% or 50%, the punishment for spamming this is already a death sentence anyways you might as well make it good, and instead of .3% per second, it should be 1% per second. And the armor frames should last the entirety of moves aninations
 
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GamerZard

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When the next balance patch comes and Krool doesn't receive any of these requested adjustments, can we just list him as unplayable (assuming he isn't already) and act like he doesn't exist?

I dunno why some people bother to play certain characters with the intention of climbing the ladder despite these characters being very flawed (Little Mac, for instance). Even if you learn an interesting play, it won't make up for the fighter's poor stats.

Remember, Sm4sh's bottom tiers barely got touched, if at all, and with an already bad character getting nerfed due to players who don't know any better calling him OP (which also happened to Sm4sh Mac), Krool's future is honestly looking bleak.
 
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Remember, Sm4sh's bottom tiers barely got touched, if at all, and with an already bad character getting nerfed due to players who don't know any better calling him OP (which also happened to Sm4sh Mac), Krool's future is honestly looking bleak.
I think it's WAAAAAY too early into Ultimate's lifespan to start calling things like that. And even then, King K, Rool has been given several changes (for better or worse is up for debate) throughout the first five or so months, so it's not like they've been ignoring him.
 
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GamerZard

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I think it's WAAAAAY too early into Ultimate's lifespan to start calling things like that. And even then, King K, Rool has been given several changes (for better or worse is up for debate) throughout the first five or so months, so it's not like they've been ignoring him.
8 months is way too early??
 
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8 months is way too early??
Considering how the last of the Fighters Pass is coming out February 2020, and they're be even more balance patches after that just like Smash 4 to balance any newcomers added, and Ultimate will definitely have a much longer lifespan, yeah I'm thinking eight months is too early.

If this was like, November and K. Rool hasn't been given any changes since 3.0.1, we would be having a different discussion.
 
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MERPIS

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8 months is way too early??
Ice Climbers, Melee Yoshi, Brawl Oli, Smash 4 MK, Smash 4 Mewtwo and Marth
These are all characters that were discovered to be pretty damn good even years after being overlooked and their potential not being unlocked.
8 months is way too early, considering it took many years to figure out the worth of the characters said above, when people finally smarten up and put Ness as being top 10, then it'll be a good time to say k rool sucks or not.
 

Call_Me_Red

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The one thing King K. Rool unquestionably does far better than anything else is just... survive. Even with the ridiculous abuse he can take at times, it arguably takes more effort to put him down for good than any other fighter. Bowser and especially DK can be prone to getting spiked to an early death, but not K. Rool. He may take some damage but very few characters can reliably spike through his propeller, and those stage spikes aren't going to kill him until obscene percents anyway. This can let him play a long game to download his opponent's habits with his crownerang and foxtrot, plus blunderbuss in ledge scenarios.

I like to see him as a Ridley that trades off some offensive pressure for bulk & defence. Both require a keen awareness of your opponent's habits and shifting your playstyle to match in order to succeed, which unfortunately also makes them difficult to use and unpopular in a game with over 70 characters that makes it easier to just pick two specialists to cover your bases.
I can completely agree with that, and now that you mention it, that's a really solid way to play K Rool (particularly with his damage output). It doesn't change the fact that he needs some help though. This only solidifies that I think he needs his Up-B buffed, so it's easier for our King to stay alive. Not only is it relatively easy to spike through for certain characters, it's also easy to keep him off ledge from the side using back airs. I think increasing the propeller hit box (back to pre-nerf would be great), increase horizontal movement, and maybe increased speed would all be great.
 
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Scase

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This can let him play a long game to download his opponent's habits with his crownerang and foxtrot, plus blunderbuss in ledge scenarios.
This is a double edged sword though. The longevity allows the opponent to catch onto your tendencies as well. I don't think being a damage sponge is a great "style" to excel at. Especially since he's only that good at it because he's so damn easy to hit and combo. It would def be a benefit if every character didn't have an inherent advantage against him due to sheer size.

I wanted to address these one by one cause I think some of them are a good idea, some not, and definitely a terrible idea balance wise to give him all of them.

Jab, more range, that's it.
Considering he has like the 3rd(?) fastest jab in the game, I think it's perfectly fine as is.
Dash attack should have much less endlag.
Agree 100%, the endlag on it sometimes makes it punishable even on successful hit.
Starting with dtilt, this move is a MESS. Frame 12 for a tiny hitbox on a big boy, the sourspot is where it should not be which means the sweetspot is horribly small, sure it leads into a decent reward if you hit it at like 85-90% but its terrible outside of that, I hope that the sourspot would be given some true combo potential possibly into upair, the aerial sweetspot should meteor, and the move as a whole should be given a much bigger sweetspot, one that actually covers the whole foot.
I think hitbox is fine, it grounds for a stupid amount of time, I think if anything it's startup lag could be improved to make it more reliable in a pinch.
Next is utilt, the only thing I think needs tweaking is the knockback of the sourspot, it should do a bit more damage and knockback to maybe kill at like, 140%? Other than that this move is good.
Uptilt is arguably one of if not the best anti air ground option in the game.
Nair, oh boy, well first off that sweetspot duration is nasty, the landing lag is nasty. Instead of coming out for a single frame, the sweetspot should be active for maybe 3 frames, the landing lag, it should have 9 frames or so, basically a discount dedede nair.
I think just a buff to the endlag would go far in making this better
Forward air, maybe just a slightly faster start up (frame 8??) and less landing lag, 10 frames or so instead of 11, this move is great imo its a faster bowser fair
I think this stays as is, it has no real drawbacks and is pretty balanced.
Back air is perfect, no changes here.
Agreed,
Down air should autocan from a short hop, the meteor is surprisingly weak for a heavyweight dair, if it autocancels it can combo and that's fun.
I'm on the fence about this one, maybe a little less endlag.
Up air...Just short hop autocancel window, that's it the move isn't good for much tbh just a situational kil option.
Def needs another buff to the endlag. Way too much risk for only so-so reward. A simple air dodge and they recover before you do, that's crazy.

In terms of special moves...
Neutral B, the move can be slow, just give it the treatment of bowser jr's canon and let him have more than one Kannon ball out at once, also maybe make the move come out faster too.
Personally the only thing this needs is the delay removed between cannonball and suck. It's hard to use it off stage and be able to get your up b off without accidentally triggering the suck and then dying.
Crown, oh boy, that move should not only come out faster, but also have much MUCH less endlag, and the animation where K rool puts the krown on his head should definitely be cancellable through basic movement, the crown itself should be faster and have a bit bigger of a hitbox, also it should nullify opponent projectiles, just because why not.
Crown speed is fine, the pick up animation is a real pain in the ass, and it already cancels out enemy projectiles. The only fix I think it needs, is to make it more like wolfs, damage from his arm instead of his hand. Too many times have I been punished by someone jumping over it and getting into my face before it's even released from my hand, meanwhile my armor lets me stand there getting punched.

Allow the throwing animation to to damage from the arm, and that's fixed, that way they have to wait for it to be in play before they can punish, at that point if they can, that's on you for being poorly positioned.
propellerpack, the horizontal movement in the air should be buffed a little, that's it, also it should rise faster.
Control is fine, but give it the old hitbox back.
Down b...I don't think you can save it, maybe decrease the endlag of a successful counter by 20 or so frames, like there's no reason for the counter to be slow when you can only counter on one side, the endlag of the unsuccessful variant should also be tweaked, but maybe by 15 frames.
Yeah, this one is a disaster, it has way too many limitations. Hit the head/feet, doesn't trigger. Miss a counter, you're in recovery for 20 years. Counter and accidentally hit the opposite direction, the "damage" is reflected the opposite direction, which has basically zero use outside 2v2/FFA games. Either make it faster to remove risk, make it amp the damage up a stupid degree to reward good timing, or make it cover his entire front side, not just belly.
Throws??
His overall grab should have a massive range buff, currently it's like ganons in smash 4.
Big disagree here, his range is pretty good, and his dash grab range is stupid good.
Up throw, make it kill at a good percent it's already the move damaging throw in the game not counting lucario's stupidity, so to have it kill at like 140 or 150 would make it seem as strong as it is damaging.
Another disagree. His up throw shouldn't kill since it does a ridiculous amount of damage.

Dthrow is okay surprisingly, the kill power off of dthrow to true combo ftilt or utilt can't be ignored and those become unescapable even to a level 9 cpu at 130%
One of the best throws in the game.
Bthrow, more kill power, maybe more along the lines of mario bthrow, that's it.
I think it's perfect as is, but with how good dthrow + up tilt, it's basically the worse option every time.
Fthrow, less knockback and less endlag, this way it can actually combo better into dash attack.
I think it's fine, would be nice to be able to combo into dash though.
Ok now for mechanics...
I think his airspeed should be much higher, like ROB level, this would let him weave in and out with those aerials
Agreed, he's a fat ass, give him some gravity lol.
His run speed, should be buffed to be about maybe snake or even maybe peach level, he can't keep up with fast opponents at all.
Very slight buff to this IMO. If you give it too much his dash would be broken AF.
His armor is also really really bad, seeing as how fast his armor can break against characters like lucina and chrom, I propose that the total threshold of damage it can take goes from 28% to like, I want to say 45% or 50%, the punishment for spamming this is already a death sentence anyways you might as well make it good, and instead of .3% per second, it should be 1% per second. And the armor frames should last the entirety of moves aninations
I think 30% is fine, maybe better regen on it. .5/7% a sec. Maybe a little more frames of armor across the board but, don't think it should be the entire move.

All in all, some really good suggestions, but no way I could justify saying giving him all these buffs. If I had to pick only a few for balance sake.....

* Endlag reduction on dash
* Damage from arm on crown throw
* Remove delay on cannonball -> suck
* Nair/Uair landing lag reduction
* One of these three for down B : faster to remove risk, make it amp the damage up a stupid degree to reward good timing, or make it cover his entire front side, not just belly.

And a bonus pie in the sky unrealistic hope for a buff : Give him more iframes on air dodge/roll/spot dodge to compensate for his sheer size of a hitbox.
 

MERPIS

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I wanted to address these one by one cause I think some of them are a good idea, some not, and definitely a terrible idea balance wise to give him all of them.


Considering he has like the 3rd(?) fastest jab in the game, I think it's perfectly fine as is.

Agree 100%, the endlag on it sometimes makes it punishable even on successful hit.

I think hitbox is fine, it grounds for a stupid amount of time, I think if anything it's startup lag could be improved to make it more reliable in a pinch.

Uptilt is arguably one of if not the best anti air ground option in the game.

I think just a buff to the endlag would go far in making this better

I think this stays as is, it has no real drawbacks and is pretty balanced.

Agreed,

I'm on the fence about this one, maybe a little less endlag.

Def needs another buff to the endlag. Way too much risk for only so-so reward. A simple air dodge and they recover before you do, that's crazy.


Personally the only thing this needs is the delay removed between cannonball and suck. It's hard to use it off stage and be able to get your up b off without accidentally triggering the suck and then dying.

Crown speed is fine, the pick up animation is a real pain in the ***, and it already cancels out enemy projectiles. The only fix I think it needs, is to make it more like wolfs, damage from his arm instead of his hand. Too many times have I been punished by someone jumping over it and getting into my face before it's even released from my hand, meanwhile my armor lets me stand there getting punched.

Allow the throwing animation to to damage from the arm, and that's fixed, that way they have to wait for it to be in play before they can punish, at that point if they can, that's on you for being poorly positioned.

Control is fine, but give it the old hitbox back.

Yeah, this one is a disaster, it has way too many limitations. Hit the head/feet, doesn't trigger. Miss a counter, you're in recovery for 20 years. Counter and accidentally hit the opposite direction, the "damage" is reflected the opposite direction, which has basically zero use outside 2v2/FFA games. Either make it faster to remove risk, make it amp the damage up a stupid degree to reward good timing, or make it cover his entire front side, not just belly.

Big disagree here, his range is pretty good, and his dash grab range is stupid good.

Another disagree. His up throw shouldn't kill since it does a ridiculous amount of damage.


One of the best throws in the game.

I think it's perfect as is, but with how good dthrow + up tilt, it's basically the worse option every time.

I think it's fine, would be nice to be able to combo into dash though.

Agreed, he's a fat ***, give him some gravity lol.

Very slight buff to this IMO. If you give it too much his dash would be broken AF.


I think 30% is fine, maybe better regen on it. .5/7% a sec. Maybe a little more frames of armor across the board but, don't think it should be the entire move.

All in all, some really good suggestions, but no way I could justify saying giving him all these buffs. If I had to pick only a few for balance sake.....

* Endlag reduction on dash
* Damage from arm on crown throw
* Remove delay on cannonball -> suck
* Nair/Uair landing lag reduction
* One of these three for down B : faster to remove risk, make it amp the damage up a stupid degree to reward good timing, or make it cover his entire front side, not just belly.

And a bonus pie in the sky unrealistic hope for a buff : Give him more iframes on air dodge/roll/spot dodge to compensate for his sheer size of a hitbox.
No one asked you
 

USAnyan

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(since everyone else or saying their piece) For me the thing is krown. I’d Both make it auto respond on your head when’s thrown offstage, and make the krown pickup cancelable. Usually
It never responds by you, and when it does it leaves you so vulnerable it’s almost as bad as the krown torture. I get wanting to not make this overspammed, but you’d think the full second of endlag would take care of that...

The other issue is armor itself, it works generally but honestly at times it’s kinda wonky. Sometimes it just won’t go through multi-hits, but still get hit anyways. Nair’s hitbox doesn’t really feel in line with the armor detection, and is very unsafe. A fair amount of armor moves kill pretty late unless you get the sweetspot, which as I’m sure the Marth debate proves, is not ideal.

I mean he works, and he has potential as I’m sure the Australian major proves.(honestly kind of underrated) But some things about him are weirdly designed and kinda feels like a sm4sh character in a game where most heavies are moderately fast, which naturally puts him in such a bad spot.
 
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I wonder... Would giving him (and some superheavies) a speed buff make them busted, even if it would make them more viable?
I think :ultbowser::ultdk::ultridley: are fine as far as mobility is concerned, and I don't think :ultbowserjr::ultkingdedede::ultincineroar: are in dire need of a speed buff (from personal experience anyway). :ultkrool::ultganondorf::ultpiranha: could definitely stand to be a bit faster though. I don't think it'd be overpowered since their options are quite limited as is and allowing them to move faster could make them up to snuff with the rest of the roster.
 
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Scase

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I think :ultbowser::ultdk::ultridley: are fine as far as mobility is concerned, and I don't think :ultbowserjr::ultkingdedede::ultincineroar: are in dire need of a speed buff (from personal experience anyway). :ultkrool::ultganondorf::ultpiranha: could definitely stand to be a bit faster though. I don't think it'd be overpowered since their options are quite limited as is and allowing them to move faster could make them up to snuff with the rest of the roster.
I think :ultganondorf: would be a little OP with his easy kill potential and a speed boost. I can't speak to :ultpiranha: since I never play him. A :ultkrool: would help but, ultimately would be real minor. I wouldn't turn it down if it was offered though lol. Ultimately I think :ultkrool:suffers more from really bad frame data considering he doesn't have the damage output to compensate for easy to punish moves.
 

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I wonder... Would giving him (and some superheavies) a speed buff make them busted, even if it would make them more viable?
As stated above, :ultganondorf: would be pretty OP considering he's at the bottom rung of being the slowest in the game for good reason. :ultkrool:wouldn't benefit much as there are other areas where adjustments would be more warranted than a mild speed increase
 

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Hey, K. Rool's not that bad.

...Is what I thought before facing a few Roys and Chroms. The heck am I supposed to do? I feel like even in neutral I'm in disadvantage.
 
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Hey, K. Rool's not that bad.

...Is what I thought before facing a few Roys and Chroms. The heck am I supposed to do? I feel like even in neutral I'm in disadvantage.
Whiff punish them with K. Rool's foxtrotting. Their jump-ins have more commitment than you'd think.
 

Scase

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Whiff punish them with K. Rool's foxtrotting. Their jump-ins have more commitment than you'd think.
I think the issue is that his neutral options like krown and cannon have such horrible frame data that it's too easy to punish by characters that should be at a disadvantage.
 

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It's a bit unfortunate a thread with this title is the one with the most discussion in K. Rool's sub-forum, although it's not entirely unjustified.

What does K. Rool need buffed? Without going into the nitty-gritty of his most flawed moves, a blanket-subject that immediately comes to mind is his projectiles. He was designed to be a super heavyweight that could do things other super heavyweights can't (iirc, don't wanna pull a "bUt SaKuRaI sAiD"), having not one, but two projectiles being a part of that. But honestly? I'd argue Ridley's Plasma Breath is more reliable than K. Rool's tools. Even though Ridley technically isn't a super heavyweight, but this is a K. Rool thread, not a Ridley one.

Blunderbuss has some pitiful endlag that makes it hard to do anything with it besides throw out a moving hitbox, which Crownerang does better despite its own flaws. Too slow to punish when the cannonball hits, too slow to possibly chase after the cannonball and suck it back up, even if you catch the cannonball from it hitting an opponent's shield right in front of you and suck it back up to throw it back at them, most characters can interrupt this animation before the cannonball can come back out. I also was surprised when I played K. Rool for the first time that the vacuum doesn't suck up and spit out projectiles, like Dedede's Inhale, but I suppose Gut Check fills that niche. Like how a drop of water fills an empty pond, at least.

However, K. Rool's Blunderbuss does have some upsides, like it's ledge trapping ability that makes for some fun trickery at the ledge on a stage with secondary platforms that still makes this move have some utility. And then there's Crownerang, despite being a downgrade of similar boomerang projectiles/moves, is an active risk to throw out at any point in the match. Throw it, and then move away too far for the crown to come back to you before it lands on the ground? Opponent now has a free item to throw combo you with, or utterly destroy you off stage. Same happens in the presence of a reflector or pocket. Even hitting an opponent close to you, whether on the first or second hit, leaves you open to punish. It's a shame how unsafe both of these moves are.

This probably isn't his biggest flaw, but I'd say it's one of. K. Rool's a fun character to me regardless, I can't see myself dropping him unless the dev team for some reason nerfs him into oblivion (which wouldn't take much effort), but there's no denying he has glaring flaws that make him unviable for high-level play. Our crocodilian, reptilian, non-mammalian menace needs some serious buffs.
 

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Ice Climbers, Melee Yoshi, Brawl Oli, Smash 4 MK, Smash 4 Mewtwo and Marth
These are all characters that were discovered to be pretty damn good even years after being overlooked and their potential not being unlocked.
8 months is way too early, considering it took many years to figure out the worth of the characters said above, when people finally smarten up and put Ness as being top 10, then it'll be a good time to say k rool sucks or not.
Sure, some characters do take some time until we see how great they truly are. Likewise, some are thought of as brilliant, and then fall off once we find out they aren't as good as we initially thought.
However, some are thought of as bad because they are bad. Melee Pichu has always ranged from 24 to 26 on the tier list. It's never thought of as a tournament viable character. So while I agree that we can't dismiss King K. Rool entirely because he might have some untapped potential, that doesn't mean he will. If I were to hedge my bets, I'd say he's low tier UNLESS he gets seriously buffed in future patches.
 
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Our crocodilian, reptilian, non-mammalian menace needs some serious buffs.
If I were to hedge my bets, I'd say he's low tier UNLESS he gets seriously buffed in future patches.
KKR already hits like a truck, so I bet "serious buffs" would make him OP, especially if it's to his frame data and speed. For that to happen, his power would have to be nerfed, which would suck lots because superheavies are supposed to kill early.
 
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That's part of the problem with k.rool though. he's the only super heavy who CAN'T reliably kill early with overall pitiful power in that regard and his other tricks not nearly making up for it. One buff to k.rool that is seriously needed above all else i'd say though is reducing the lag of his aerials. Nair is insuktingly abyssmal for one, seems like a good landing option akin to dedede's nair at first but is instead this surprisingly slow and super punishable move and this applies to pretty much all of his aerials in some form or another. even doing something like that alone would greatly improve on some of k.rool's most egregious flaws(their lackluster approach options, lackluster landing options, conceptually being amazing offstage with their long distance recovering allowing them to go deep into edge guarding but lacking the frame data to actually do so effectively..)
 

Scase

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KKR already hits like a truck, so I bet "serious buffs" would make him OP, especially if it's to his frame data and speed. For that to happen, his power would have to be nerfed, which would suck lots because superheavies are supposed to kill early.
Except he doesn't hit like a truck. And any of his kill confirm moves have bad frame data, except maybe his uptilt. The problem with smash balance as a whole is that not enough characters have drawbacks like K rool. Sure he can kill, but the moves are slow/bad recovery. That's fine.

The problem is other characters have easy kill confirms and speed, and good frames, and range, and so on. In a vacuum he's not a poorly balanced character. But when weighed against others he's woefully underpowered.

What besides frame data and recovery needs to be buffed? He's already plenty powerful.
I think by speed increase most people were referring to his actual move/run/air speeds, not frame data.
 
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The Rhythm Theif

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Lemme get one thing straight here. K. Rool is my secondary main in Smash Ultimate, and he is NOT a garbage mid-low tier. He is an invincible force high-mid tier if you time his down special properly, has the most powerful spikes in the game (seriously, I was on a Rod N' Games Smash livestream once, and I ultimately owned a Kirby player with a B-Air to B-Air combo [I apologize Kirby mains, as I am one of them.] without getting a special zoom on the second B-Air), and he's a hard to kill fighter with a great recovery move. However, sometimes the recovery move can... well, you know... backfire on your recovery. This is why we need to #BuffTheKrocPack. I'd say buff the vertical recovery range that the propellor pack can travel, so that if you're close to the blast zone, you can Up-B back to the ledge. That's the only thing I think the developers should buff on K. Rool, as everything else is fine to me.
 
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Scase

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Lemme get one thing straight here. K. Rool is my secondary main in Smash Ultimate, and he is NOT a garbage mid-low tier. He is an invincible force high-mid tier if you time his down special properly, has the most powerful spikes in the game (seriously, I was on a Rod N' Games Smash livestream once, and I ultimately owned a Kirby player with a B-Air to B-Air combo [I apologize Kirby mains, as I am one of them.] without getting a special zoom on the second B-Air), and he's a hard to kill fighter with a great recovery move. However, sometimes the recovery move can... well, you know... backfire on your recovery. This is why we need to #BuffTheKrocPack. I'd say buff the vertical recovery range that the propellor pack can travel, so that if you're close to the blast zone, you can Up-B back to the ledge. That's the only thing I think the developers should buff on K. Rool, as everything else is fine to me.
Kirby is arguably lower tier than k rool, so not what I would call a ringing endorsement lol. Realistically speaking, if :ultkrool: was higher tier there would simply be more pros playing him. Every pro player ranks him just slightly above :ultlittlemac:.
 

MERPIS

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Lemme get one thing straight here. K. Rool is my secondary main in Smash Ultimate, and he is NOT a garbage mid-low tier. He is an invincible force high-mid tier if you time his down special properly, has the most powerful spikes in the game (seriously, I was on a Rod N' Games Smash livestream once, and I ultimately owned a Kirby player with a B-Air to B-Air combo [I apologize Kirby mains, as I am one of them.] without getting a special zoom on the second B-Air), and he's a hard to kill fighter with a great recovery move. However, sometimes the recovery move can... well, you know... backfire on your recovery. This is why we need to #BuffTheKrocPack. I'd say buff the vertical recovery range that the propellor pack can travel, so that if you're close to the blast zone, you can Up-B back to the ledge. That's the only thing I think the developers should buff on K. Rool, as everything else is fine to me.
Lol this is a funny joke
 
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why is it always the kirby mains who are the most delusional? It's ok to play a low tier, i love playing k.rool despite that but you gotta accept that they do indeed have severe faults and crippling weaknesses that could use buffs. Pretending your character is secretly amazing does nothing constructive unless you have consistent result to prove it
 
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MERPIS

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why is it always the kirby mains who are the most delusional? It's ok to play a low tier, i love playing k.rool despite that but you gotta accept that they do indeed have severe faults and crippling weaknesses that could use buffs. Pretending your character is secretly amazing does nothing constructive unless you have consistent result to prove it
Let him have his fun
 

Damned1

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Well, first post here, so - hi everyone. Also, incoming wall of text.

Now, let's get some things out of the way first, this is gonna take some time so i post most of the things in spoiler to save you time.


First of all - i do not currently own SSBU.


... still here? No writing raging response? Nice for change, so let's go further.

Ok, i did not get SSBU yet, but whenever i could play the game somewhere i did. I also constantly followed SSBU videos, or - to be more specific - i FOLLOW all King K. Rool materials. Funnily enough, even though i learnt about K. Rool through his Smash fans' materials, it is His presence in SSBU that makes me want to get both Switch and Ultimate. I was super excited when i saw the trailer, and even more when i saw some first prediction for His viability. Did not exactly believe all those "best heavy in the game", but i thought that - at least - we got someone decent.

And... yeah, we all know how it turned out to be. Not that much.

However, i also don't think - like i see a lot of people say - that K. Rool is terrible by design and not much can be helped if he is not changed completely (e.g. being able to shoot multiply kannoballs... NO. JUST NO). I still see potential for him to be at least ok competitive-wise. Oh, and there is always a possibility im wrong about some stuff, feel free to laugh at me correct me. With that out of the way...

We're good? Cool. Now, what i wanted to do - and the main reason i have registered (besides wanting to do so for a long time :p) - was because there are a few things that i think can be done for K. Rool viability. However, since i can't confirm that much in practivc too fast and im not so good with frame data to know every other character's data (which i consider necessary to even start talking about it), i will focus more on details that stood out to me both in recorded matches and in my own experience, however brief it was.

While i would like to talk about how i see K. Rool should be able to play, that would take a lot of your time, so i will focus on specific moves. Also, bigger decriptions will be put in spoilers to save space, with tl;dr below it. Let me start with:

1. Kannonball - yes, i'm talking about projectile. Blunderbuss is IMO more or less fine, aside from the most common and holy argument "REDUCE ENDLAG", which i definetely wouldn't mind. (Also, the first patch IMO did not change anything noteworthy. Not getting into that more). However, that still wouldn't solve other issues i have with the move.

Now, what is Kannonball supposed to be? It's slow, but powerful and lasts long, so - for me - the most obvious aplication would be to limit opponent's option or use it as a shield against weaker, spammable projectiles so you can get to the enemy with something else (oh, trust me, we will get to "getting to them" part later). Of course, there are ways around... and that's where the issue lies. 1) You can move out of the way, 2) parry it or 3) use an attack to stop it. I'm completely ok with all of this: the first one means that Kannonball served it's purpose, while anyone who wants and can pull the other two consistently without getting Kannonball to their face should definetely be rewarded for that. Then, of course, you can 4) Shield. And by itself, it is completely fine. But here is a problem - Kannonball does a laughable damage to shields. Now, all projectiles (well, most of them) got nerfed in that regard, and - of course - no one would like this to be a shield breaking monster. However, this is - as i said - a very slow projectile, both in movement and execution, and you can't even spam it because you can have only one at a time. Yet, from the look it seems to me like it's dealing around as much shield damage as e.g. Ice Climber's and Ivysaur's projectiles. You know, ones that you can spam. Doesn't seem right to me.

And that gets us to another counter: 5) other projectiles. Now, again, i don't mind Kannonball losing to heavier/slower things. But that's not the case, as i think we all know from :ultpokemontrainer: MU, which usually features this "lovely" interaction:

1) :ultkrool: used Kannonball. :ultivysaur: uses Razor Leaf to stop it.
2) :ultivysaur: used second Razor Leaf. :ultkrool: gets hit.

So let me get this straight: A slow in movement and execution, non-spammable projectile gets completely countered by slightly faster (in movement) AND spammable projectile. The same seems to happen in :ulticeclimbers: MU, and i think there are some others, but this stood out to me the most. As a results, you can't get the most logical use of Kannonball against zoner, which is using it as cover for your approach.

Now, i don't mind any of those counters by itself, especially the first three. But the fact that such a high-commitment move can be played around in so many ways and so easily makes Kannonball far worse than it should be.

TL;DR: Kannonball should deal more shield damage and/or not lose to so many spammable projectiles. And of course: "REDUCE END LAG" of Blunderbuss.

2.Forward Smash - man, talking about this move makes me kind of sad. Why? Well, let's get into it:

Forward Smash is stereotypical smash of superheavy: it's slow, laggy, but extremelypowerful. This makes it more of a punish or hard-read move or something to finish off buried opponents. And im completely fine with that. But there are two things other than "REDUCE END LAG" that makes this move even worse than it's on paper. For once, its hitbox seem to be modest at best. I have actually seen video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nftHXxFNs-cP) that suggests it actually doesn't cover his entire fist, but the author said himself to take that with a grain of salt. However, even before watching that, i've noticed that sometimes FSmash did not connect, even though it looked like it should. I actually thought that it's not "bad hitbox" per se, but the opposite - that hitbox matches K. Rool's fist too well. In a game where basically everything has bigger hitbox than it looks.

Whatever the case is, this might not sound THAT bad. But look at this move (couldn't find a gif, damn it):


Even visually, this doesn't seem to have that great of a hitbox. It's not :ultkingdedede: or :ultganondorf: FSmash which cover a lot of space in front of him and above him - it only covers a - relatively speaking - small area before him. So if you make it even worse than that... that's just bad.

Speaking of both :ultkingdedede: and :ultganondorf: both of their FSmashes also deal quite a lot shield damage, at least from what i have seen. On the other hand, i feel like :ultkrool:'s FSmash barely does anything to opponents' shield, at least compared to its huge knockback and damage it does to characters. Again - we're talking about a VERY SLOW move with rather modest hitbox. Seriously, just compare it to Down Smash or, you know, most slow-but-powerful moves of other superheavys?

Oh, and let's not forget our anthem: "REDUCE END LAG". Like, it already has quite high starting lag, at least make it slightly easier to backoff after whiff.

TL;DR: Fix/improve hitbox, make shield damage comparable to that done by similiar superheavy attacks and/or "REDUCE END LAG".

3. Throws and grabs - Well, that's a short one: i actually think that :ultkrool: grab game is good as it is. My main issue is that his regular grab range seems kind short compared to what his arms's lenght would suggest (seriously, they are longer than some characters). But i might be very wrong here. Other than that:

- Forward Throw is probably the worst, mainly being useful as a "GET OUT OF HERE!" tool and for that 0% combo into Dash Attack. One suggestion i have seen is to reduce its knockback and make it more of a combo throw (aka one that doesn't work only with no damage to opponent or sth). Not sure if i completely agree with that, but sounds good.
- Back Throw is ok, decent kill power, damage and does its job of removing opponent from stage.
- Up Throw - i've seen some people suggest to make it more of a kill throw. And i say - NO. UThrow has very defined use - it's :ultkrool: main grab for guaranted damage. After all, it is THE strongest grab in the game damage-wise, and you can pummel (something that, for some reason, i don't see that often with K.rool) at higher %. Like, MAYBE you could go with our gospel and "REDUCE END LAG" to make better follows ups, but eeeehhh, not sure.
- Down Throw - I actually think it was buffed in the first patch. Yes, they reduced the burry effect at low %, but... most good players i have seen were able to escape it up to 90% anyway (and some even at 150%...) before that patch. And just going for DThrow->Utilt does around the same damage as UThrow BY ITSELF (at best, don't forget about sourspot). On the other hand, they made bury effect STRONGER after 125%, which IMO was the proper time to use DThrow anyway (ok, you could go, and still can, for that USmash kill at like 80% or sth, but that was always more of a risky play than a confirm). Oh, and let's not be dumb - we want to make :ultkrool: better, not obnoxious. And buffing something as "interactive" as bury isn't what i want to see. Ever.

TL;DR: MAYBE buff refular grab range and reduce knockback on FThrow for combo potential. The rest seems fine to me.

4. Speed - well, everyone just had discussion on :ultkrool: speed, so let me add my 2 cents to that:

Now, let me say this: i don't see K. Rool as zoner. His projectiles, while good at some things, aren't made to be spammed. Rather, they look like the should be used so K. Rool can limit his opponents' options and punish with one of his strong attacks (or pressure recovering foes). K. Rool has some relatively fast moves on startup (not so much on endlag :|), and his armor allows him to win many trades.

But there is one huuuuuuge problem with that concept: after you force your opponent to react to your move, you need to get to them to punish them.

Yeeeeeaaaaaah, i think i dont need to explain much. Even if you fix things i mentioned before, it doesn't matter much when you can't catch up to your opponent to punish him. Also, wasn't K. Rool faster than DK in the first DKC? :p Jokes aside, i really think :ultkrool: should be at least fast enough to follow after his Kannonball.

TL;DR: Slight buff to speed would help with :ultkrool: gameplan. Maybe airspeed too?

5. Krown Krown is, in general, rather ok. It's strong, goes through a lot of stuff, deals a lot of damage. However, one thing needs to be adressed before everything else - the risk of using it is too high.

You know how you can use Gordo's against :ultkingdedede:? Well, Krown is worse in that department. Gordo hits you once (or 2-3 times if you are unlucky) and that's it. One mistake with the Krown can lead to you getting hit a lot of times. And this is a problem not simply because Krown isn't that good to justify such a drawback. It also limits players' creativity. A projectile that goes back to you is something that can easily limit your opponents and let you cover more of their option. Krown isn't diffrent in that department. However, since the cost of losing the Krown to your opponent can be HUGE, people are very hestitant at letting it fall to the ground, even though that can create great situations for them (e.g. going in the air after opponent dodging crown and using fast aerial like Up Air).

There are a few ways to fix it, though some might be rather unlikely. I'm talking about removing the damage versus :ultkrool:entirely: if krown is thrown at him, it comes back to him. Yea, nothing to add to that, and i don't think that's possible. Other option would be to limit the number of times opponent can use Krown, either by decreasing its despawn time or making it go back to :ultkrool: after a single use against him. Lastly, and this is probably the only real option, we can decrease the damage and knockback Krown does, either entirely or solely to :ultkrool:. Well, you could also greatly buff Krown, but 1) there isn't much to improve without making it ridiculous; 2) it still wouldn't solve the real problem.

Also, does this move really need to be that slow? *insert the "REDUCE THE END LAG" chants here*.

TL;DR: Reduce the damage Krown does to :ultkrool: OR - if possible - remove that part entirely or make the Krown despawn faster/disappear after one use against K. Rool. Oh, and just like Oh, and just like MERPIS MERPIS said - make it less of a slowpoke move.

Other things i don't want to go about too much:
- Make the last hit of Up Smash stronger against shields (or in general: that's a big boi falling on you!);
- Improve Propellerpack's horizontal Recovery and allow him to act either after or before :ultkrool: enters free fall (Up Air to the ledge, woo! Not that will happen, at least not in Ultimate). Also wouldn't mind old hitbox being back, it barely changes anything as far as i can tell from matches.
- And our gospel, chant with me: "REDUCE END LAG!" (or landing lag in case of aerials), mainly on Dash Attack, Forward Air, Neutral Air (most important probably) and the stuff i mentioned before.
- General frame data improvments, but im not even gonna pretend that i can talk about (although... Down B coming out slightly faster would be cool? Dunno).
- Increase shield damage from some :ultkrool:'s moves. Like, i see relatively many shield breaks or shield pressures from :ultkingdedede:, :ultbowser:, :ultdk: and :ultganondorf: during competitive matches. But i think i have seen only 2 times :ultkrool: broke someone's shield. And remember: im watching/playing much, much more :ultkrool: games than any other character from SSBU. K. rool just lacks things to seriously pressure opponents' shields (DSmash is huge, but you usually get hit afterwards and can't pressure the shield any further. So that doesn't count, at least for now). And as a result, shielding seem usually quite safe against him.

Geez, i why did i decide to start my life on this board with a post equivalent of The Great Wall of China? Sorry, everyone. :x Thanks for baring with me.

ps. sorry for the whole "REDUCE THE END LAG" "joke", but i see this used as a suggestion here and in other characters' sections SO MUCH that i started to find it funny. Dunno, im weird. :shrugs:
 
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BuffKirby

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Lemme get one thing straight here. K. Rool is my secondary main in Smash Ultimate, and he is NOT a garbage mid-low tier. He is an invincible force high-mid tier if you time his down special properly, has the most powerful spikes in the game (seriously, I was on a Rod N' Games Smash livestream once, and I ultimately owned a Kirby player with a B-Air to B-Air combo [I apologize Kirby mains, as I am one of them.] without getting a special zoom on the second B-Air), and he's a hard to kill fighter with a great recovery move. However, sometimes the recovery move can... well, you know... backfire on your recovery. This is why we need to #BuffTheKrocPack. I'd say buff the vertical recovery range that the propellor pack can travel, so that if you're close to the blast zone, you can Up-B back to the ledge. That's the only thing I think the developers should buff on K. Rool, as everything else is fine to me.
I’m afraid down-special is extremely situational, as characters with fast, reliable projectiles (Fox/Falco, or Samus) can nullify its uses. Your opponent was probably an amateur at the Rod N’ Games livestream. The thing is, while he is indeed very tough in terms of survivability, characters can easily take advantage of his huge frame and exploitable moveset. Honestly I believe K. Rool to be a low tier, but you need to know how to deal with him before calling shots with him.
why is it always the kirby mains who are the most delusional? It's ok to play a low tier, i love playing k.rool despite that but you gotta accept that they do indeed have severe faults and crippling weaknesses that could use buffs. Pretending your character is secretly amazing does nothing constructive unless you have consistent result to prove it
So are you calling someone like Komota delusional? Some operate differently from other people. Yes, I see Kirby has noticeable faults (combos working at low percents only, lack of solid projectile, mediocre range), but so too does other characters. Someone such as Wario also suffers from poor range and a lack of projectile outside Wario Bike, and poor recovery excluding the Bike and Waft outside the equation. Some Kirby mains lab, others go to the tournaments, and some do both. Results also operate differently from country to country. Someone like Toon Link’s results differ significantly in Japan in comparison with the USA. A similar case can be presented with K. Rool in the USA and Australia.

Now, back to the topic on K. Rool, I want to study more on the K. Rool matchup to prepare to face off against the croc in the future. Every MU is always something I need to pay close attention to.
 
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i really think they have to somehow admit they made a mistake with K.Rool and try to fix that with the next balance patch

they can't keep ignoring he's one of the worst characters in the game.....people ranted and raved for so long just to see him added and now they can't even enjoy him because he gets decimated by practically every other character

that's not right
 

GamerZard

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i really think they have to somehow admit they made a mistake with K.Rool and try to fix that with the next balance patch

they can't keep ignoring he's one of the worst characters in the game.....people ranted and raved for so long just to see him added and now they can't even enjoy him because he gets decimated by practically every other character

that's not right
It really feels like that sometimes. I swear, if he isn't buffed by Hero's release, that means the devs don't really care about him and his player base will die.
 
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Joined
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It really feels like that sometimes. I swear, if he isn't buffed by Hero's release, that means the devs don't really care about him and his player base will die.
i mean just look at this sub-forum it used to be so lively but now the only topic here that's actually living is the one talking about how terrible and low tier K.Rool is
 

BuffKirby

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Go ahead and use him in tournaments for all I see. If you keep viewing K. Rool as a non-viable, “garbage” character then he will be so in your eyes. I’m having a lot of fun using Kirby whenever I get the chance to use a Switch. You can still accomplish notable feats with your favorite Kremling, (Mr. L anyone) I still have faith that he’ll improve over time.
 
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Go ahead and use him in tournaments for all I see. If you keep viewing K. Rool as a non-viable, “garbage” character then he will be so in your eyes. I’m having a lot of fun using Kirby whenever I get the chance to use a Switch. You can still accomplish notable feats with your favorite Kremling, (Mr. L anyone) I still have faith that he’ll improve over time.
The roster is big enough that even potentially good characters can get ignored or see little use.
 
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