K rool is a garbage low midtier

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GamerZard

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#42
I dead up agree. King K. is so hideously bad, I feel like it's not even worth looking up pro guides to rectify my loss streak. The fact that I still get wrecked in dittos by people who make him look high mid doesn't help.

Until he gets SERIOUSLY buffed to where it doesn't look like Sakurai only added him because that's what fans wanted, I've dropped him a 3rd time for actual playable superheavies. (King Dedede)

Concerning his nerfs, I was all for any nerfs that could be throw at him. With this being the 2nd hardest Smash game to get good at after Melee, I couldn't stand losing so much, especially to King K.

I'm one of those who wanted him in, and to make him a bad character with an overly steep learning curve to get good with him is ridiculous. Hopefully the Joker patch fixes this, or else #Lucina4Life for me.
 

GamerZard

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#44
Even if K. Rool gets that dream patch that buffs him to kingdom come, you are still going to lose as him.

Why? Because by deciding that it's not even worth improving, you are already stunting your growth as a player.
It's worth improving with someone who's good, which Rool is clearly not. This thread pretty much confirmed it.

Maybe if he were bumped up to Bowser's level, then I'd reconsider.
 
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#45
Even if K. Rool gets that dream patch that buffs him to kingdom come, you are still going to lose as him.

Why? Because by deciding that it's not even worth improving, you are already stunting your growth as a player.
You can improve much better using a character like lets say, ridley or DK than you ever will using K Rool, simply cause those 2 are actually good and K Rool is not
 
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#46
You can improve much better using a character like lets say, ridley or DK than you ever will using K Rool, simply cause those 2 are actually good and K Rool is not
You make it sound as if K. Rool is an unplayable character with unwinnable matches, when he is not.

I'm not saying it's not an uphill battle, but a character having problems and limitations shouldn't bar a user from trying to improve as him. The problem with patch culture is that it creates a defeatist attitude where people wait for that magical kool aid to rain down from the heavens and fix all of their problems, instead of learning to face that uphill battle. I understand this first hand experience; I mained Mewtwo in Melee, and unlike now, there was zero hope for that character to get buffed back then. And I don't regret my time playing as him, even if he didn't win me any regional tournaments.

K. Rool has hope for the future, as there are several balance patches ahead. But if the player keeps being a key part of problem, is not going to do them much good.

So far, K. Rool's issues haven't deterred me from playing as him; instead they've served me to gain some insight. I feel that this issues are also an opportunity for me to keep learning as a player. Don't get me wrong, I'm not deluding myself into thinking he can win a major but unless he stops being fun to me, I'm not dropping him.
 
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#47
You make it sound as if K. Rool is an unplayable character with unwinnable matches, when he is not.

I'm not saying it's not an uphill battle, but a character having problems and limitations shouldn't bar a user from trying to improve as him. The problem with patch culture is that it creates a defeatist attitude where people wait for that magical kool aid to rain down from the heavens and fix all of their problems, instead of learning to face that uphill battle. I understand this first hand experience; I mained Mewtwo in Melee, and unlike now, there was zero hope for that character to get buffed back then. And I don't regret my time playing as him, even if he didn't win me any regional tournaments.

K. Rool has hope for the future, as there are several balance patches ahead. But if the player keeps being a key part of problem, is not going to do them much good.

So far, K. Rool's issues haven't deterred me from playing as him; instead they've served me to gain some insight. I feel that this issues are also an opportunity for me to keep learning as a player. Don't get me wrong, I'm not deluding myself into thinking he can win a major but unless he stops being fun to me, I'm not dropping him.
To add to what Ryu said here, it's also extremely important that players don't give up on a character entirely because players refusing to give up on a character is what creates "breakaway" players who upend the meta.

I remember the days back in Melee before anyone had any idea just how good Marth is. Then one day along came Ken and everything changed after that.

The roster of SSBU is so huge that I'm sure we're sleeping on quite a few characters at this point. Lots of people had played Marth before Ken came along and showed us just how good Marth could truly be. We may not have seen a KKR player come along and do this yet but that doesn't mean there won't be one.

I believe KKR needs a few endlag reductions on some of his moves, either on his projectiles or his normals, but I'm not going to stop playing him in tournaments just because of this. I won't be counterpicking him against quite a few characters, but that much goes without saying.
 
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#48
To add to what Ryu said here, it's also extremely important that players don't give up on a character entirely because players refusing to give up on a character is what creates "breakaway" players who upend the meta.

I remember the days back in Melee before anyone had any idea just how good Marth is. Then one day along came Ken and everything changed after that.

The roster of SSBU is so huge that I'm sure we're sleeping on quite a few characters at this point. Lots of people had played Marth before Ken came along and showed us just how good Marth could truly be. We may not have seen a KKR player come along and do this yet but that doesn't mean there won't be one.

I believe KKR needs a few endlag reductions on some of his moves, either on his projectiles or his normals, but I'm not going to stop playing him in tournaments just because of this. I won't be counterpicking him against quite a few characters, but that much goes without saying.
I nominate the blunderbuss shot to be faster, since it could be fired rapidly in DKC2 (mind you it will still only be possible to have one on-screen at a time), whereas Crownerang left him a sitting duck even in it's game of origin.

Something cool they could do with his uair and usmash is give them less endlag on the condition that you land them; not too much for the uair since I imagine they don't want it to potentially chain into up b for cheesy kills.
 

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#49
I nominate the blunderbuss shot to be faster
An endlag reduction on the BB would be one of the best and most necessary buffs they can give him. The problem with it now is that, even when you've seen that your opponent is going to react to it and you're putting it away, you're possibly already too late if your opponent is playing a fast enough character.
 

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#50
If there's one thing that K. Rool really needs, it's mobility improvements. I would've thought that he'd be blessed with a deceptively good air speed value (okay maybe not top 5 levels, but more around Wario's range), especially considering how far he could jump in the first Donkey Kong Country.

Implementing knockback-based heavy armor onto his Propeller Pack recovery could also help avoid getting gimped by weak attacks.
 

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#51
If there's one thing that K. Rool really needs, it's mobility improvements. I would've thought that he'd be blessed with a deceptively good air speed value (okay maybe not top 5 levels, but more around Wario's range), especially considering how far he could jump in the first Donkey Kong Country.

Implementing knockback-based heavy armor onto his Propeller Pack recovery could also help avoid getting gimped by weak attacks.
Airspeed would be nice, but what he truly needs is more safe options that can be used against fast characters. As it stands, basically everything he has is punishable in some way for fast characters.

The problem with balance in SSB (and fighting games in general) is that it's pointless in every sense of the word to spend hours upon hours labbing a character if that character gets annihilated by a single counterpick. For heavies, that's usually been small/fast characters that have negated their existence since the beginning. There's a reason someone created this video called "Bowser vs. Sheik Simulator", after all.

In order for KKR to not be bottom tier, he has to have some kind of answer to being rushed down by speedsters and he currently just doesn't. He either needs to have normals he can poke with that are difficult to punish (even a faster jab recovery, ffs) or he needs to have a better zoning game than he currently does.

I believe he's got the right foundation to be a solid character, he just needs to not be an insta-loss on counterpick.
 

GamerZard

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#52
Airspeed would be nice, but what he truly needs is more safe options that can be used against fast characters. As it stands, basically everything he has is punishable in some way for fast characters.

The problem with balance in SSB (and fighting games in general) is that it's pointless in every sense of the word to spend hours upon hours labbing a character if that character gets annihilated by a single counterpick. For heavies, that's usually been small/fast characters that have negated their existence since the beginning. There's a reason someone created this video called "Bowser vs. Sheik Simulator", after all.

In order for KKR to not be bottom tier, he has to have some kind of answer to being rushed down by speedsters and he currently just doesn't. He either needs to have normals he can poke with that are difficult to punish (even a faster jab recovery, ffs) or he needs to have a better zoning game than he currently does.

I believe he's got the right foundation to be a solid character, he just needs to not be an insta-loss on counterpick.
I always thought big and slow characters aren't supposed to have fast tools at all, or at least no more than one. Otherwise, it defeats the purpose of being a big and slow character.

Big and fast characters can exist to some degree, but it wouldn't make sense to have every heavy in the game have DK-level frame data. KKR was meant to suck and have a higher learning curve than the rest.
 

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#53
I always thought big and slow characters aren't supposed to have fast tools at all, or at least no more than one. Otherwise, it defeats the purpose of being a big and slow character.

Big and fast characters can exist to some degree, but it wouldn't make sense to have every heavy in the game have DK-level frame data. KKR was meant to suck and have a higher learning curve than the rest.
The problem has to do with the fact that a lot of the quick fighters can interrupt King K. Rool before he gets a chance to use his attacks. It would at least be good if K. Rool had a few quicker attacks that could help him keep certain fighters away. The stronger attacks pretty much need to have greater start-up to avoid being too cheap, but they would need to have better armor (belly armor isn't enough) if you don't want a simple jab to stop K. Rool in his tracks.

Of course, no amount of armor can protect K. Rool from grabs.
 
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