K rool is a garbage low midtier

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GamerZard

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#42
I dead up agree. King K. is so hideously bad, I feel like it's not even worth looking up pro guides to rectify my loss streak. The fact that I still get wrecked in dittos by people who make him look high mid doesn't help.

Until he gets SERIOUSLY buffed to where it doesn't look like Sakurai only added him because that's what fans wanted, I've dropped him a 3rd time for actual playable superheavies. (King Dedede)

Concerning his nerfs, I was all for any nerfs that could be throw at him. With this being the 2nd hardest Smash game to get good at after Melee, I couldn't stand losing so much, especially to King K.

I'm one of those who wanted him in, and to make him a bad character with an overly steep learning curve to get good with him is ridiculous. Hopefully the Joker patch fixes this, or else #Lucina4Life for me.
 

GamerZard

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#44
Even if K. Rool gets that dream patch that buffs him to kingdom come, you are still going to lose as him.

Why? Because by deciding that it's not even worth improving, you are already stunting your growth as a player.
It's worth improving with someone who's good, which Rool is clearly not. This thread pretty much confirmed it.

Maybe if he were bumped up to Bowser's level, then I'd reconsider.
 

MERPIS

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#45
Even if K. Rool gets that dream patch that buffs him to kingdom come, you are still going to lose as him.

Why? Because by deciding that it's not even worth improving, you are already stunting your growth as a player.
You can improve much better using a character like lets say, ridley or DK than you ever will using K Rool, simply cause those 2 are actually good and K Rool is not
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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#46
You can improve much better using a character like lets say, ridley or DK than you ever will using K Rool, simply cause those 2 are actually good and K Rool is not
You make it sound as if K. Rool is an unplayable character with unwinnable matches, when he is not.

I'm not saying it's not an uphill battle, but a character having problems and limitations shouldn't bar a user from trying to improve as him. The problem with patch culture is that it creates a defeatist attitude where people wait for that magical kool aid to rain down from the heavens and fix all of their problems, instead of learning to face that uphill battle. I understand this first hand experience; I mained Mewtwo in Melee, and unlike now, there was zero hope for that character to get buffed back then. And I don't regret my time playing as him, even if he didn't win me any regional tournaments.

K. Rool has hope for the future, as there are several balance patches ahead. But if the player keeps being a key part of problem, is not going to do them much good.

So far, K. Rool's issues haven't deterred me from playing as him; instead they've served me to gain some insight. I feel that this issues are also an opportunity for me to keep learning as a player. Don't get me wrong, I'm not deluding myself into thinking he can win a major but unless he stops being fun to me, I'm not dropping him.
 
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S_B

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#47
You make it sound as if K. Rool is an unplayable character with unwinnable matches, when he is not.

I'm not saying it's not an uphill battle, but a character having problems and limitations shouldn't bar a user from trying to improve as him. The problem with patch culture is that it creates a defeatist attitude where people wait for that magical kool aid to rain down from the heavens and fix all of their problems, instead of learning to face that uphill battle. I understand this first hand experience; I mained Mewtwo in Melee, and unlike now, there was zero hope for that character to get buffed back then. And I don't regret my time playing as him, even if he didn't win me any regional tournaments.

K. Rool has hope for the future, as there are several balance patches ahead. But if the player keeps being a key part of problem, is not going to do them much good.

So far, K. Rool's issues haven't deterred me from playing as him; instead they've served me to gain some insight. I feel that this issues are also an opportunity for me to keep learning as a player. Don't get me wrong, I'm not deluding myself into thinking he can win a major but unless he stops being fun to me, I'm not dropping him.
To add to what Ryu said here, it's also extremely important that players don't give up on a character entirely because players refusing to give up on a character is what creates "breakaway" players who upend the meta.

I remember the days back in Melee before anyone had any idea just how good Marth is. Then one day along came Ken and everything changed after that.

The roster of SSBU is so huge that I'm sure we're sleeping on quite a few characters at this point. Lots of people had played Marth before Ken came along and showed us just how good Marth could truly be. We may not have seen a KKR player come along and do this yet but that doesn't mean there won't be one.

I believe KKR needs a few endlag reductions on some of his moves, either on his projectiles or his normals, but I'm not going to stop playing him in tournaments just because of this. I won't be counterpicking him against quite a few characters, but that much goes without saying.
 
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#48
To add to what Ryu said here, it's also extremely important that players don't give up on a character entirely because players refusing to give up on a character is what creates "breakaway" players who upend the meta.

I remember the days back in Melee before anyone had any idea just how good Marth is. Then one day along came Ken and everything changed after that.

The roster of SSBU is so huge that I'm sure we're sleeping on quite a few characters at this point. Lots of people had played Marth before Ken came along and showed us just how good Marth could truly be. We may not have seen a KKR player come along and do this yet but that doesn't mean there won't be one.

I believe KKR needs a few endlag reductions on some of his moves, either on his projectiles or his normals, but I'm not going to stop playing him in tournaments just because of this. I won't be counterpicking him against quite a few characters, but that much goes without saying.
I nominate the blunderbuss shot to be faster, since it could be fired rapidly in DKC2 (mind you it will still only be possible to have one on-screen at a time), whereas Crownerang left him a sitting duck even in it's game of origin.

Something cool they could do with his uair and usmash is give them less endlag on the condition that you land them; not too much for the uair since I imagine they don't want it to potentially chain into up b for cheesy kills.
 

S_B

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#49
I nominate the blunderbuss shot to be faster
An endlag reduction on the BB would be one of the best and most necessary buffs they can give him. The problem with it now is that, even when you've seen that your opponent is going to react to it and you're putting it away, you're possibly already too late if your opponent is playing a fast enough character.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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#50
If there's one thing that K. Rool really needs, it's mobility improvements. I would've thought that he'd be blessed with a deceptively good air speed value (okay maybe not top 5 levels, but more around Wario's range), especially considering how far he could jump in the first Donkey Kong Country.

Implementing knockback-based heavy armor onto his Propeller Pack recovery could also help avoid getting gimped by weak attacks.
 

S_B

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#51
If there's one thing that K. Rool really needs, it's mobility improvements. I would've thought that he'd be blessed with a deceptively good air speed value (okay maybe not top 5 levels, but more around Wario's range), especially considering how far he could jump in the first Donkey Kong Country.

Implementing knockback-based heavy armor onto his Propeller Pack recovery could also help avoid getting gimped by weak attacks.
Airspeed would be nice, but what he truly needs is more safe options that can be used against fast characters. As it stands, basically everything he has is punishable in some way for fast characters.

The problem with balance in SSB (and fighting games in general) is that it's pointless in every sense of the word to spend hours upon hours labbing a character if that character gets annihilated by a single counterpick. For heavies, that's usually been small/fast characters that have negated their existence since the beginning. There's a reason someone created this video called "Bowser vs. Sheik Simulator", after all.

In order for KKR to not be bottom tier, he has to have some kind of answer to being rushed down by speedsters and he currently just doesn't. He either needs to have normals he can poke with that are difficult to punish (even a faster jab recovery, ffs) or he needs to have a better zoning game than he currently does.

I believe he's got the right foundation to be a solid character, he just needs to not be an insta-loss on counterpick.
 

GamerZard

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#52
Airspeed would be nice, but what he truly needs is more safe options that can be used against fast characters. As it stands, basically everything he has is punishable in some way for fast characters.

The problem with balance in SSB (and fighting games in general) is that it's pointless in every sense of the word to spend hours upon hours labbing a character if that character gets annihilated by a single counterpick. For heavies, that's usually been small/fast characters that have negated their existence since the beginning. There's a reason someone created this video called "Bowser vs. Sheik Simulator", after all.

In order for KKR to not be bottom tier, he has to have some kind of answer to being rushed down by speedsters and he currently just doesn't. He either needs to have normals he can poke with that are difficult to punish (even a faster jab recovery, ffs) or he needs to have a better zoning game than he currently does.

I believe he's got the right foundation to be a solid character, he just needs to not be an insta-loss on counterpick.
I always thought big and slow characters aren't supposed to have fast tools at all, or at least no more than one. Otherwise, it defeats the purpose of being a big and slow character.

Big and fast characters can exist to some degree, but it wouldn't make sense to have every heavy in the game have DK-level frame data. KKR was meant to suck and have a higher learning curve than the rest.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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#53
I always thought big and slow characters aren't supposed to have fast tools at all, or at least no more than one. Otherwise, it defeats the purpose of being a big and slow character.

Big and fast characters can exist to some degree, but it wouldn't make sense to have every heavy in the game have DK-level frame data. KKR was meant to suck and have a higher learning curve than the rest.
The problem has to do with the fact that a lot of the quick fighters can interrupt King K. Rool before he gets a chance to use his attacks. It would at least be good if K. Rool had a few quicker attacks that could help him keep certain fighters away. The stronger attacks pretty much need to have greater start-up to avoid being too cheap, but they would need to have better armor (belly armor isn't enough) if you don't want a simple jab to stop K. Rool in his tracks.

Of course, no amount of armor can protect K. Rool from grabs.
 
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#54
i really wish that k.rool had gotten better buffs in the last balance patch because the longer it takes for him to be in a spot the harder it gets to just continue using k.rool

just using the crown toss is a risk even when it's a good time to use it...can't help but think You'll be punished due to that gap where he's just wide open
 
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#55
The problem has to do with the fact that a lot of the quick fighters can interrupt King K. Rool before he gets a chance to use his attacks. It would at least be good if K. Rool had a few quicker attacks that could help him keep certain fighters away. The stronger attacks pretty much need to have greater start-up to avoid being too cheap, but they would need to have better armor (belly armor isn't enough) if you don't want a simple jab to stop K. Rool in his tracks.

Of course, no amount of armor can protect K. Rool from grabs.
It always weirds me out when someone grabs King K. Rool's forward tilt in particular, during the belly armor part before the clap attack. Most forward tilts are good "get off of me" options, but King K. Rool's forward tilt is unusually unsafe against grabs. It's bad because, since I use tilt stick, using a forward tilt the other way should be a good way to cover behind you and intercept with the opponent. While it still covers attacks, King K. Rool is more vulnerable to grabs than most other characters are.
 

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#56
It always weirds me out when someone grabs King K. Rool's forward tilt in particular, during the belly armor part before the clap attack. Most forward tilts are good "get off of me" options, but King K. Rool's forward tilt is unusually unsafe against grabs. It's bad because, since I use tilt stick, using a forward tilt the other way should be a good way to cover behind you and intercept with the opponent. While it still covers attacks, King K. Rool is more vulnerable to grabs than most other characters are.
Ironically, based on his frame data, K. Rool's f-tilt has slightly less start-up lag than Palutena's f-tilt. But he is a bigger target than Palutena, which can say a lot.

And of course, the universal traction improvements make it harder to push back fighters who try to shield attacks.
 
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#57
i wish i knew what sakurai and crew were thinking with K.Rool because it doesn't seem like he was designed that well compared to other heavies

I Enjoy Using K.Rool and hate having to talk crap about him so much but it's unavoidable you can't just play K.Rool and not pick up on how lackluster he is as a character when you try to play him in A Serious setting
 

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#58
I'm gonna be that guy and say I wish certain moves worked differently. I wish forward throw popped up to allow for better follow ups at later percents. Wish the non-bury hit of dtilt didn't have so much BKB. Back throw is literally only good if you want to spike with bair and that's it. Wish stomach armor applied to better attacks, but also wasn't as easy to break. Bowser and Ganon can easily break the armor without trying if you try falling nair. Both his projectiles need better frame data. He basically has Junior's cannon ball from last game, Crown becoming an item was a mistake. Gutcheck counter endlag from missing the counter is horrific. Like the Kirby v D3 matchup, K Rool has an awful time against DK, who gets free combos on him.
 

OnyanRings

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#59
Winning with K rool feels incredibly satisfying because of how disrespectful he looks and Plays. However, i cant really argue, he does suck a lot of the time.
 

Jaro235

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#61
Can we consider him bottom tier? It's hard to see anyone worse than him at this point. It's like his only non-bad matchup is against himself (even then, it's even). That's how hideously flawed he is.
He is near the bottom, but I think he is better than Little Mac at least. At least you can recover with K. Rool. He has less problems than Sheik who cannot kill nor deal that much damage. King K. Rool is a really bad character but I don’t think he is the absolute worst character in the game. He has plenty of defense that most of the cast does not have, and he has a couple good tools that can lead to him getting some early kills. K. Rool is awful, but he isn’t the absolute bottom tier.
 
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Call_Me_Red

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#62
Guys, I'll be the outlier here and say that I dont think K Rool is that bad anymore. I've been getting some pretty consistent results at my locals. I do, however think it's 100% necessary to have a secondary for tough match ups (Pokemon Trainer in my situation). I think if K Rool plays smart (projectile heavy when he needs to, aggressive when he needs to) he actually has some really good tools. Don't get me wrong, he's nowhere near High Tier, but I don't think he's a Bottom Tier Boy anymore. I'd argue low Mid Tier. Maybe it's just all the time I've put in, but I think he's perfectly viable...as long as you don't get one of his many bad match ups.
 

MaddaD

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#63
Can we consider him bottom tier? It's hard to see anyone worse than him at this point. It's like his only non-bad matchup is against himself (even then, it's even). That's how hideously flawed he is.
Hard disagree.

K Rool is near the bottom of most tier lists, but there are characters he is still better than (Little Mac, Kirby, Bowser Jr. come to mind). Ryu up near the top put it perfectly.

You make it sound as if K. Rool is an unplayable character with unwinnable matches, when he is not:

I'm not saying it's not an uphill battle, but a character having problems and limitations shouldn't bar a user from trying to improve as him. The problem with patch culture is that it creates a defeatist attitude where people wait for that magical kool aid to rain down from the heavens and fix all of their problems, instead of learning to face that uphill battle.
 
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#64
i just wish i knew what went into making K.Rool for smash because it takes a lot to make a character who feels so fun and unique yet has so many flaws that he's also not fun to play
 

MERPIS

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#69
Forget it man. This guy can complain about Inkling not doing super well or being very popular. He's a glutton for punishment even if he won't admit it.
Inkling is surprisingly hard to play, her kit is rather unorthodox despite the surface level simplicity of it.
 
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#70
Wouldn't say Rool's quite garbage, he has some useful tools, a decent recovery and can be hard to knock off the stage. The Crown is a solid spacing tool when the opportunity is there.

He has some obvious, glaring weaknesses which bog him down, but at the same time he can be dangerous if he gets on a run and in the hands of a great player. He's very gimmicky, in a good way and inconsistent with his patterns. Some of his tools are quite situational and not always reliable. That plus he's easily punishable if he makes a mistake. Some of it is part and parcel of the actual character himself if you think about it.

I guess from my perspective I've been dropping in and out of Elite Smash with him, hard to maintain at times, cos he struggles against many of the popular and superior characters. Compared to someone like ROB , my other main, who is a bit more dependable as a force and with strategies.

Wouldn't have it any other way though! So grateful he's in Smash.
 
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S_B

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#72
KRool's biggest issue is that he's a "death-by-counterpick" character in a game where they've done a miraculous job of ensuring most of the cast is actually viable.

At this point, you're better off playing Snake if you want a heavy with good trap potential, early kills through spikes, and a slow but somewhat exploitable recovery (at least Snake can act out of his up+b, though).
 

Vincey_Boi

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#74
At First K.Rool was extremely good at the start of the game especially if you watched KOSSismoss play the character. But after the first patch he got nerfed to shreds and after a while everyone realized hey this guys combos and his good moves can all be countered and punished heavily. I will give him 1 thing though that his recovery is one of if not the best in the game making him almost impossible to edgeguard and/or spike but still with all of his weaknesses he is still a pretty bad character props to all the K.Rool mains out there especially KOSS for sticking to their character and finding out new techs and combos for the character that is not all that good. :ultkrool:HeWearsCrocs
 

MERPIS

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#77
At First K.Rool was extremely good at the start of the game especially if you watched KOSSismoss play the character. But after the first patch he got nerfed to shreds and after a while everyone realized hey this guys combos and his good moves can all be countered and punished heavily. I will give him 1 thing though that his recovery is one of if not the best in the game making him almost impossible to edgeguard and/or spike but still with all of his weaknesses he is still a pretty bad character props to all the K.Rool mains out there especially KOSS for sticking to their character and finding out new techs and combos for the character that is not all that good. :ultkrool:HeWearsCrocs
Eh compared to stuff like inkling or rob/netta, his recovery is rather bad in comparison, there's times you will go too deep and you'll just miss the ledge, also his body is much too big to be fully protected by the propeller , I've hit him out of it using stuff like dunk multiple times so you can definitely mess with it.
 

~?~

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#78
tbh K rool needs less landing lag on his stuff and his kill power needs to be better, also in terms of his reflect, it doesn't need a better hitbox, just make it last a million years like theirs does, also maybe buff his aerials to be faster, I'm thinking garbage like this:

Nair: from frame 7 to 4/5, 8 frames of landing lag
Fair: From frame 14 to 10 or 9, 9 frames of landing lag
Bair: from frame 19 to 16, 12 frames of landing lag
Dair: 10 frames of landing lag
Dash attack: good god remove some of this attack's end lag its way too heavy on that, or at least make it cross up shields.
Make side b faster and do less damage to k rool if his crown is thrown at him.
Remove most of jab's end lag, I don't know why it's so slow. ITS A JAB

kill power:
uthrow: more align with incineroar in terms of how early it kills, about 140% on mid weights
bthrow: similar to dr mario, about 145%
I personally think dthrow is fine since after 125% its basically a free ftilt kill.
Make fair's early sourspot kill a little earlier, from 170% to maybe 150%

Other garbage:
Fix nair's hitbox, the sweetspot hit feels really hard to hit it feels like smash 4 wario's nair or meta knight's nair.
Make him dash just a tad bit faster.
Let us cancel the animation where k rool puts his crown back on, since this would allow us easier combos out of crown.
Make cannon ball just a little faster.
Fix his bloody grab range ITS SO BAD.
Lastly, make down b frame 3 at the cost of some of its power, this would let him break out of combos.
K Rool can already break out of combos with Nair. JS
 

Call_Me_Red

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#79
K.Rool was extremely good at the start of the game...But after the first patch he got nerfed to shreds...his recovery is one of if not the best in the game making him almost impossible to edgeguard and/or spike...
I'm sorry wut m8? He was only good because n00bs can't adapt. He got very minor nerfs after the first patch. Unnecessary nerfs, but they were minor. And his recovery is good, no doubt, but the best in the game? lol. Impossible to edgeguard or spike? lol.
 
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