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K rool is a garbage low midtier

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whitesnake

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 18, 2019
Messages
124
Are there even any notable Min Min mains who have won tournaments? We have people like Ben Gold and KirbyKid that have won stacked and large tournaments with solo King K. Rool, and they had to fight some horrendious matchups like Mario and Young Link to get to the top. Ben Gold even took a game off of Samsora’s Peach, another tough matchup.

I know it’s an unfair comparison, since Min Min released in a time where locals are non-existant, but I honestly haven’t heard many success stories with her myself. Plus, Min Min isn’t a high tier either. Rushdown characters like Wolf, Roy, and Joker destroy her, and her disadvantage stage is one of the worst in the game.

Yes, King K. Rool does have a lot of bad matchups. But so do many other characters in this game. The roster will have over 80 characters when all of the DLC is released, so it’s expected for not everyone to be an excellent character for tournaments. But even I won a couple of small tournaments with King K. Rool, and he got buffed multiple times over the last few patches.

Min Min may be a hard matchup for King K. Rool, but considering what happened with his playerbase and buffs since release, I would disagree with calling him a “garbage low tier”. He’s not a fast character with combos, so he doesn’t fit in the game’s meta. But he can win in his own way by stuffing out approaches, punishing hard with reads, and creating walls. King K. Rool is just different. Min Min also doesn’t fit the citera of the meta and is different too. That’s okay, because it would be boring in my opinion if every character had to be played in a similar way in order to win.
I agree with handyman - tier placement should not be defined by 1 matchup (especially not against a non-top tier like min min).

also... are we positive that min min is a terrible matchup for K Rool?
I don’t think it’s that bad. Jump more than usual, approach from 45 degrees, try to get in close, nair gimp her vertical recovery.
I realize that people playing min min are very early in trying out the character & her usage will get better, but I don’t see this as some unwinnable matchup for king croc
 

Damned1

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 25, 2019
Messages
34
Well, i have been getting to writing here for the last 2 months since 8.0 hit for another "what i think should change for our favorite monarch in the future". Partially because i couldn't find enough time to write, but also because my conclusion so far is:


I have no idea.


Ok, that's not completely true. There is till one more crucial fix i had listed before 8.0 (more on that in a moment) and i have many random ideas. However, as i have written before: i believe that with 8.0, King K. Rool is "fix'd". What i mean by that is that his kit works properly for the most part. Most of the things that made me think "How on earth does it work like that?!" are gone. NAir, Blunderbuss, Belly Armor - even Dash Attack and BThrow, which did not seem like big issues back then, but in retrospect, they were huge. This means there aren't many obvious things that don't work within their specific designs. Sure, some of them could be improved and there are some small oddities (well, for the most part small), but those would mostly be pure buffs, not "MAKE IT WORK" changes.

With that being said, :ultkrool: : could definetely use those buffs. Now, im not an expert neither at Smash or game balance, and what i've learned by lurking in the Internet is that players tend to think in a very simple, straightforward ways when they talk about balancing things. And im no different - i thought of making BThrow stronger, but not for a moment it crossed me mind about to change just the angle it sends at (you can facepalm, i won't blame you). Aaaaand it's easy to oversell or underestimate a change before you see it in effect for some time. So i will probably suggest something stupid or busted without realizing that. Sorry in advance.

Ok, so let's get to it with the one thing i want fix'd the most. Oh, and WALL OF TEXT WARNING. Sorry, can't help it.


1. Reduce endlag on UpSmash


The one big fix that i wanted, and actually my top 3 before 8.0. In fact, the more i look into SSBU frame data, the less sense it makes. I will put this in the spoiler with tl;dr, cus it's a lot of - let's be honest - rant.

Just to give you quick comparison:
a) FSmash is active on frames 19-20, FAF is at 62. 42 frames of endlag is quite a lot, and part of the reason this move is so bad.
b) DSmash active frames are 22-25 and it has FAF of 64 - later than FSmash, but it still has less endlag at 39 frames. Still a lot, but with this moves range, power and BA as soon as frame 8, it's not that much of an issue.
b) And finaly, Up Smash's head hitbox is active at frames 6-11, and it has FAF frame 72. That's 60 frames of end lag.

"HANG ON, YOU DID NOT COUNT THE LANDING HITBOX OF UPSMASH, IT'S NOT A FULL SECOND OF ENDLAG!". You are right, i didn't. But it makes no difference for two reasons. First of all, while the landing hitboxes aren't exactly useless, they are not something you actively go for. Seriously, outside of going for the meme spike, was there a single time you used UpSmash in a serious game thinking "i will go for the belly hit instead for the head sweetspot!"? Feel free to correct me, but... i doubt that. Those landing hitboxes are just kind of there, definitely helpful, but kinda "meh" at the same time.

And even if you insist that landing hitboxes are actually good or if they buffed them a lot, UpSmash would still be insanely laggy. With that memespike hitbox at frame 23, it's still 49 frames of endlag. That's more than :ultlucas: 's UpSmash, and that covers basically an entire space around him. Which gets me to another point: UpSmash's hitboxes are rather modest. If you look at other chars, like fellow heavies in :ultbowser: , :ultdk: , :ultkingdedede: , :ultincineroar: etc., their UpSmashes cover almost the entire ground very quickly. On the other hand, :ultkrool: 's main hitbox not only is above him, the later hit is only in front of him and doesn't even covers his entire hurtbox. This means you can't hit opponent on the ground (for the most part at least). Yet none of those other UpSmashes come close to having that much of an endlag, and they are definetely not lacking in power. Hell, :ultbowser: 's UpSmash lasts through frames 16-23, with a second, weak hitbox coming frame 37. And its FAF is 58. Even the laggiest smash attacks of other superheavies aren't nearly as laggy , despite - again - having arguably much better hitboxes.

Now, there is an argument to be made that none of those other UpSmashes come frame 6, which is definitely insane considering the kill power of :ultkrool: 's version. But here is a thing: IMO it's better to have higher startup than endlag, at least to some degree, especially if you have a huge hitbox to make your opponent unwilling to approach during startup. And im actually not against this move being a laggy and more precise tool than most UpSmashes. But they overdid it. If K.rool's UpSmash FAF was 51, i would call it insane (even tho in practice it would still be 39/27 frames of endlag, only slightly less/more than :ultbowser: 's UpSmash). With FAF at 55 frames, i would call it reasonably laggy. 61 or so FAF i would consider slightly too laggy and would probably call for buffs. 72 FAF on frame 6 move is just absurd and there is ZERO REASON for this to be the case. Yes, :ultincineroar: 's Darkest Lariat lasts even longer (84 total frames) and it comes on frame 5. Except not only it's actually active for longer (last hitbox comes on frame 57), but it covers the same area through all of it. And that area is all around :ultincineroar: .

tl;dr :ultkrool: 's UpSmash has no business being as laggy as it is with its startup and hitboxes.

Ok, so what do i want to change? Simple: Cut at least 10 frames from this move. This is a massive change for sure, right?

But what would it change actually? To be sincere... most likely not much. Even with FAF at 62, it still would be a very laggy move and wouldn't change much in terms of combos etc. This is why i consider it a fix - it doesn't necessarily make a character better and even if, it's only a small improvement. But with that change, UpSmash's design would actually make sense, as a still laggy, but powerful and precise tool. Currently, it's just overbalanced compared to what the rest of the cast has. Similar case was with Belly Armor, which IMO was contender for the worst super armor in the game (seriously, why you could break it with uncharged regular attack?).

And with that all said, let's get to other points (YAY, MORE WALLS OF TEXT!)

2. Endlag

When i have first joined Smashboard and checked K. Rool section, i started joking that :ultkrool: 's mains' holy chant is "REDUCE ENDLAG". But to be honest, i agreed with that. Even as of now, King K. Rool still has some of the laggiest moves in the game, even when compared to fellow superheavies. Granted, im not sure which moves and how much can be changed without becoming totally obnoxious. So here are suggestions that might be pretty bad, but... i hope not. At least not THAT bad:

a) Crown - yes, im actually still thinking of making Crownerang less laggy. Before 8.0, i've said that this must happen regardless of how much they buffed Crown's armor. And then they went and buffed it a lot... yea. So whereas before i was calling for "at least 10 frames" to be removed, it shouldn't come nowhere near that number. Still, i think they could easily cut a few frames. Literally, im talking about like 3-5 frames of endlag removed. That would still be on the laggier side, but it would made it slightly more difficult to punish it with jump. Should this happen? Maybe not. But im still leaving this here.
b) Crown pickup - kind of the same move, but it needs to be pointed out. To keep it short: i don't think they should completely remove the animation, since it would remove Crown Sliding. But if they can't make it completely cancel-able with an attack, they should reduce the time it takes by a lot. Not giving any specific this time, it's not like my suggestions of that kind are good anyway. :p
c) Dair - i've seen way to many times people suicide with this for no reason. Low priority overall, but i would very happy with that change.
d) FAir/Nair - woah, woah, really? The saints and saviors of K.Rool's moves need to be buffed? Not sure, but i've noticed that most other superheavies have at least one aerial that's not as laggy, usually below 42 total frames and in some cases much lower (:ultdk: is an extreme case, but even :ultganondorf: has two of these) or that they can auto-cancel them to remove both endlag and landing lag (:ultbowser: 's FAir). Except - you've guessed it - :ultkrool: . NAir has 45 total frames, followed with BAir at 49 frames. And FAir has a huge 57 total frames, which is rather underwhelming. Granted, some lighter chars are in even worse position when it comes to endlag (:ultike: ), but they usually make up for it with disjoints or less landing lag.
e) UpAir - this one is tricky because it already functions as a 2nd/3rd jump. This is one change im almost sure they won't even try to implement, but would it really hurt to bring the endlag on this move somewhere below 70?

3. Forward Smash

Yep, im dedicating the whole section to this poor move. FSmash is one move that i enjoy on many levels (audiovisually, cool reference), but im sad to see in the tournaments because it.. most of the time... just does not work. It's just upsetting. I already went once on the tirade "why this move is so bad", so let's focus on fixing it. Or to be more precise - a few ideas to fix it that might not be a good idea together.

a) First and foremost is it's hitbox's duration. 2 Frames or a move that lasts a second is already bad, but add the fact it's a very honest hitbox. I think it should last at least those 3 frames. Hell, you can even make it come up earlier, it's not like frame 18 FSmash with small hitbox would be broken. With that being said, :ultgnw: 's FSmash also has 2 active frames, and while it's hitbox is better (bigger disjoint), i can see an argument for not changing this (ugh).
b) As for hitbox size, the biggest issue is hitting small characters, which isn't surprising considering it doesn't even cover the entire boxing glove. My suggestion looks like this:
Bez tytułu.jpg

I admit im not sure if this would be enough, as the hitbox is still kind of meh... but that's how the move looks visually, so... eh, it's something?

c) And here comes the crazy part - couldn't they lower the endlag of this moves? Again: :ultgnw: has a very similar FSmash in that it kills super early, lasts 2 frames and doesn't cover that much. However, not only it has better hitbox (as i have said already), but it's much less laggy (total frames only at 42... what the hell?). Now, i obviously don't want to reduce endlag THAT MUCH... but i don't see this move being anywhere near broken if it had FAF at 55 or so, maybe even closer to 50. And no, according to wiki :ultkrool: 's FSmash isn't that much stronger than :ultgnw: (KO at 53% at ledge vs KO at 60% at ledge... yikes). Yes, K. Rool's FSmash, while super strong, is actually weaker than what :ultbowser: , :ultkingdedede: and :ultganondorf: have... even tho - just like with UpSmash - those chars' FSmashes usually have much better hitboxes. Granted, it's also faster, so... there's that.
d) Lastly - shield damage. :ultkrool: probably struggles the most with pressuring shield. He doesn't have an attack that threatens shields a lot outside from down smash (which is laggy and you have to be inside the opponent for it to destroy shields... which will usually get you punished becauseyou did not pressure their shields. Im not sayign FSmash should be a shieldbreaker... but it definitely should hurt them more than it does now. ... Much more. Or maybe more shield stun?I don't know.


There is a lot more things to go through. Could they make Krown disappear faster, or even after hitting K. Rool once (just like he gets it back when he gets hit in DKC1)? Could they make his FThrow even better at early % combos?And what about his Upb? Faster travel, more mobility while it lasts, or maybe even ability to act out of it as long as you did not enter free fall? Again - there is a lot, but this post is already WAY TOO LONG (sorry). Will correct any mistakes i find/someone throws at my face.

Also: thx for sticking with :ultkrool: through all those times since release. It was rough, but you managed and can now enjoy a new, fix'd King K. Rool.
 
Last edited:

StrangeKitten

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
1,907
Location
Battle Royal Dome
He was a garbage low midtier. Worse than that. He was flat-out bottom three. Only character I feared nothing from and regularly zero-to-death'd. And when I played him, lordy he felt awful to play. Then 6.0 dropped and gave us a host of K Rool buffs, and it felt like Christmas. It felt like we had been rewarded for sticking with him, because he finally had decent neutral options and finally had kill options that weren't smash attacks. Then 8.0 happened, and gave him even more buffs! Now he's a decent low midtier. I hope they buff him again - I'd like to see Kopter travel faster and a better disjoint on f-smash. But at least a lot of his issues have been ironed out
 
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