K rool is a garbage low midtier

[Damned1]

As far as results go, i don't think we can even argue IF is the beast superheavy in the game. And im not 100% sure about that, but it seems he has the best representation of them all. seems to have the most problem, but that might be just me not knowing anything aside from K. rool stuff (and i hope it's not true, i like your lazy emperor with his "im sassy and i know it" crouch etc.).

Still, i would like to wait more to see how both and do after those buffs. Not expecting anything big, but who knows?

ps. im still thinking of making a thread to discuss the most common mistakes K. Rool mains might be doing. "Discuss", but im mainly interested to see if im right about some things :D , but i think this might be a good way to improve for everyone? No idea.

 

[TennisBall]

Yeah no, I'm gonna have to go with . Easy high tier. Great advantage state, scary in neutral, amazing ledgetrapping, kill confirms, and edgeguarding galore. Along with other things, and to be honest his disadvantage isn't actually terrible. It's for sure bad, but it's no or disadvantage. I'm for sure missing some things but the community's opinions on him are very high, and not just Twitter. Top players are putting him super high too. So yeah, Bowser is for sure the best superheavyweight in my book.

The rest is a toss up for second best and so on. It's probably , but I don't know enough about the buffs to say for sure. I personally think that people are sleeping on but who knows.
Also hot take is better than .

 

[SleuthMechanism]

Its a toss between DK and Bowser imo. Its honestly one of those moments where it depends on the player. But yeah if you think DK is the worst heavy then you have a smooth brain LOL

Ganon is somewhat decent. He has surprisingly good edge guard tools like nair and up air, and some decent throw combos. But like every heavy. Combo food.

oh, i agree. It's really just more of a statement of how the super heavyweight class is at the best they've ever been in smash bros now when the current worst of the bunch can still do some stuff(also a post above just made me realize i completely forgot about charizard there whom honestly i think is at a toss up with ganon for the worst heavy spot)

I'd currently say as far as heavies go my impressions/predictions right now are(listed in order from best to worst in their tier) High tier: Mid tier: low tier:

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

Kirby () got buffed too. Up Air actually f[BEEP]ing kills now, Inhale (the command grab)'s windbox sucks opponents in at Frame 10 instead of 14, and some buffs on N-Air and F-Throw actually has some follow ups when used under platforms now, such as F-Throw to U-Air.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

That's nice for them but.. I don't see how this is relevant to the topic at hand here.

 

[Deleted member]

oh, i agree. It's really just more of a statement of how the super heavyweight class is at the best they've ever been in smash bros now when the current worst of the bunch can still do some stuff(also a post above just made me realize i completely forgot about charizard there whom honestly i think is at a toss up with ganon for the worst heavy spot)

I'd currently say as far as heavies go my impressions/predictions right now are(listed in order from best to worst in their tier) High tier: Mid tier: low tier:

You seem to be forgetting that Charizard got buffed previously. He's actually mid tier at worst, definitely better than Ganondorf.

 

[Crooked Crow]

I don't main a super heavy (in fact my character kind of bodies them) so you can take what I say with a grain of salt, but to me it seems like the worst superheavy is Ganondorf.

He lacks the tools to deal with defensive, projectile heavy play styles. A lot of his attacks are unsafe on shield, so any character with good OoS options also poses issues for him. His recovery is bad. Rockcrocking exists. Overall, Ganondorf is a rather linear character that isn't difficult to figure out.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[Deleted member]

So it's safe to say Krool is no longer the worst heavy?

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

is indisputably the best super heavyweight in the game. Great speed and offensive options, a nice combo breaker in the form of Whirling Fortress, and KOs notoriously early. Disadvantage isn't great but manageable. In short, he's got the most options of any super heavyweight, which allows him to deal with situations much better.

It's really a toss-up for how the others would be ranked honestly. I'd probably (at the risk of sounding biased) put as second best as while he doesn't have as many options as Bowser, he does have an oppressive edgeguarding game, good range, and Kong Karry that has a multitude of applications form combos to edgeguarding to straight up KOing. are probably middling; Charizard has quick and powerful attacks and good mobility, as well as having the other two Pokemon to fall back on if things get rough, and Dedede has a really strong recovery and edgeguarding game with an even better punish game, though neither have as many tools as Bowser or Donkey Kong. After that I'd say since even though he hits like a truck, he's slow and has a terrible disadvantage and recovery, even though he has good zoning tools and the buffs this patch helped him significantly, especially nair, I'm not very faithful in ranking him much higher, and who suffers in disadvantage and recovery more than most characters while lacking tools to deal with many playstyles, in that order.

Just my two cents on the matter.

So it's safe to say Krool is no longer the worst heavy?

I feel like he's definitely better than now, and MAYBE tied with . He's not perfect, but with these buffs, especially to nair, he MAY have JUST BARELY snuck his way into the bottom of mid-tier.

 

[S_B]

So it's safe to say Krool is no longer the worst heavy?

I'd say give it some time to see how the buffs shake out in the competitive scene, but it's definitely looking promising.

Kirby Kid is a pretty solid KKR player (the only other one of note I can think of being Ben Gold). Here he is doing quite well in one of KKR's worst matchups:

Also, I rarely see D3s in tournament which I find surprising because I feel he's much improved in Ultimate. :\

 

[TennisBall]

So it's safe to say Krool is no longer the worst heavy?

Give it a bit of time but I think it's safe.

I'd currently say as far as heavies go my impressions/predictions right now are(listed in order from best to worst in their tier) High tier: Mid tier: low tier:

I'm sorry but there's no way Charizard is worse than Ganon in my eyes. Better neutral, better advantage with very good ledge pressure along with being able to switch into Squirtle at any time in case things get rough, and way better disadvantage with two double jumps, a recovery with super armor, being able to flare blitz in case you need to recover horizonally, and being almost as heavy as Ganondorf. Ganon can kill easier but Zard can also kill with Weak Nair into Flare Blitz, Back Throw into RAR Back Air, and being able to get hard reads. There's more than enough results and proof that Zard can easily take out Ganon in my eyes.

 

[Crooked Crow]

I don't even think Donkey Kong is the second best super heavy- that would be King Dedede, with his Gordo traps. Zaki gets good results in Japan with the penguin.

Additionally, Donkey Kong suffers from his moves being negative on hit at low percentages. He lacks the explosive tools to really switch from him losing disadvantage state to winning neutral. Donkey Kong, even with his new-found buffs in the form of OoS options and DownB having a threatening hitbox in the air again- he still gets slapped around and can't actually play his game if you won't let him. He is still faster and a little bit more safe than Ganondorf, but that really isn't saying much.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't even think Donkey Kong is the second best super heavy- that would be King Dedede, with his Gordo traps. Zaki gets good results in Japan with the penguin.

Additionally, Donkey Kong suffers from his moves being negative on hit at low percentages. He lacks the explosive tools to really switch from him losing disadvantage state to winning neutral. Donkey Kong, even with his new-found buffs in the form of OoS options and DownB having a threatening hitbox in the air again- he still gets slapped around and can't actually play his game if you won't let him. He is still faster and a little bit more safe than Ganondorf, but that really isn't saying much.

That's why I think DK is the worst superheavy, and sometimes I feel Ganondorf is slightly better than him. I don't want to dedicate myself to him until he's as good as Bowser or whoever's second best tbh.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

So it's safe to say Krool is no longer the worst heavy?

I guess so. I'm still quite confused on if my tertiary main in the competitive scene should be K. Rool, Hero, or Kirby, however. My first main is Mario and my second is Dedede.

 

[whitesnake]

I don’t expect the rankings to change significantly because conventional wisdom has set in and KKR still has some fundamental flaws (combo food, bad OoS etc)... but to me he is mid tier now.

Good enough to beat anyone

 

[Deleted member]

I don’t expect the rankings to change significantly because conventional wisdom has set in and KKR still has some fundamental flaws (combo food, bad OoS etc)... but to me he is mid tier now.

Good enough to beat anyone

I always believed that combo food is the worst flaw a character can have and it means they're automatically bad. I first thought it was a heavy-exclusive flaw, but Fox, a top tier lightweight. is also combo food due to being a relatively tall fast faller. He does have OoS options to combat this though, which can't be said for most heavies, KKR included.

IMO, if the combo food flaw gets exploited and you're a heavy, that's a free stock for the opponent. Hence, it's not worth maining these characters.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

@GamerZard Well, if the flaw is exploited and if you're using a heavy and you're at a kill percentage, then its a free stock for the opponent. If you're not at kill percent and the combo food flaw is exploited and you're using a heavy, you can still probably manage to take a stock off the opponent if the flaw isn't exploited again. Some things matter about percentage, and I think the combo food flaw is one of them.

 

[whitesnake]

Being “Combo food” does not get you killed so it’s certainly not a free stock. They just rack up damage early in the life.

absolute worst case it’s an extra 50% after you get hit when at low %

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

In the meantime, I'm still working on my definitive guide to Kirby. I'm planning on working on the Down B slide over the weekend, and after that, Kirby's Final Smash.

 

[Scase]

Being “Combo food” does not get you killed so it’s certainly not a free stock. They just rack up damage early in the life.

absolute worst case it’s an extra 50% after you get hit when at low %

I agree it's not a free stock but, KKR is combo food his entire life, not just at low %. His size makes sure of this, tons of smaller characters can DI out of Terry's bread and butter combo but KKR eats the whole thing every time. Small characters can DI out of Bayos air combos KKR can't etc. It's not a free stock but, the whole point of a heavy is that you take more % to kill, how is it an advantage when stacking that % is easier on them than smaller characters?

 

[SecretAsianMan]

the problem isnt that you are combo food
its that you are big fat and slow so it is very, very very hard to get out of disadvantage once the opponent gets a lead on you.
and
usually it isnt just 50%, its usually more, and because you are big and slow you will 9/10 end up off stage or at least reset to neutral wich is a bad position for most heavies to begin with.

 

[Deleted member]

the problem isnt that you are combo food
its that you are big fat and slow so it is very, very very hard to get out of disadvantage once the opponent gets a lead on you.
and
usually it isnt just 50%, its usually more, and because you are big and slow you will 9/10 end up off stage or at least reset to neutral wich is a bad position for most heavies to begin with.

I'm pretty sure your first two sentences are the same thing. He's combo food because he's big fat and slow.

 

[SecretAsianMan]

constantly in disadvantage and being comboed are two different things

 

[mynameisBlade]

I still say his Belly Armor should be permanent. That would be enough of a buff to never touch him again. Well what do I mean by "permanent" you might ask? It will have the same 50/50 damage reduction with 0% hitstun when they hit the Belly Armor, but it can NEVER break. The fact that Sakurai gave King K. Rool some amazing things THEN turned right around and gave him HORRIBLE faults with those amazing things, does absolutely NOTHING for the character but show me that he doesn't care as much about it unlike his own creations.

I mean sure, you can hit DDD's Gordo back at him, but that is nothing compared to the Belly Armor breaking. He gives K. Rool a great SIDE-B (Boomerang Krown). Awesome move right.... WELL not really... You can drop the Krown.... That doesn't even make sense canonically.. That never happens anywhere in anything DK related. It was just something Sakurai made up to do some trivial disservice to this "hideous" character we made him add. Same with the Belly Armor breaking. It's unnecessary and did NOT need to have that fault. He could've just had "permanent" super armor.

 

[Deleted member]

I still say his Belly Armor should be permanent. That would be enough of a buff to never touch him again. Well what do I mean by "permanent" you might ask? It will have the same 50/50 damage reduction with 0% hitstun when they hit the Belly Armor, but it can NEVER break. The fact that Sakurai gave King K. Rool some amazing things THEN turned right around and gave him HORRIBLE faults with those amazing things, does absolutely NOTHING for the character but show me that he doesn't care as much about it unlike his own creations.

I mean sure, you can hit DDD's Gordo back at him, but that is nothing compared to the Belly Armor breaking. He gives K. Rool a great SIDE-B (Boomerang Krown). Awesome move right.... WELL not really... You can drop the Krown.... That doesn't even make sense canonically.. That never happens anywhere in anything DK related. It was just something Sakurai made up to do some trivial disservice to this "hideous" character we made him add. Same with the Belly Armor breaking. It's unnecessary and did NOT need to have that fault. He could've just had "permanent" super armor.

This person speaks the truth.

 

[MaddaD]

I still say his Belly Armor should be permanent. That would be enough of a buff to never touch him again. Well what do I mean by "permanent" you might ask? It will have the same 50/50 damage reduction with 0% hitstun when they hit the Belly Armor, but it can NEVER break. The fact that Sakurai gave King K. Rool some amazing things THEN turned right around and gave him HORRIBLE faults with those amazing things, does absolutely NOTHING for the character but show me that he doesn't care as much about it unlike his own creations.

I kind of disagree. This would just turn K Rool into a purely aggressive character and become obnoxious to fight against when his current iteration is already in a pretty good spot. The Belly Armor is an amazing passive, but it forces you to play smart with him, and rewards good timing and knowing the proper time to go in for a trade. Relying on it too much punishes you for bad decisions.

I mean sure, you can hit DDD's Gordo back at him, but that is nothing compared to the Belly Armor breaking. He gives K. Rool a great SIDE-B (Boomerang Krown). Awesome move right.... WELL not really... You can drop the Krown.... That doesn't even make sense canonically.. That never happens anywhere in anything DK related.

It was likely added as to prevent a superheavy from spamming projectiles all match, or to commit to a ranged option or risk losing it/being used against him

 

[meleebrawler]

I kind of disagree. This would just turn K Rool into a purely aggressive character and become obnoxious to fight against when his current iteration is already in a pretty good spot. The Belly Armor is an amazing passive, but it forces you to play smart with him, and rewards good timing and knowing the proper time to go in for a trade. Relying on it too much punishes you for bad decisions.


It was likely added as to prevent a superheavy from spamming projectiles all match, or to commit to a ranged option or risk losing it/being used against him

You'd pretty much just spam nair, which is a fairly safe move after it's buffs for 50-50s with grab if there were no limits for the armour. The most I'd ask for it is either tone down the punishment for it breaking, or help it's regen a bit.

Crownerang was exploitable in it's game of origin by leaving him open to stomps, since you can't really do that in Smash they made it potentially exploitable in a different way. Both methods display K. Rool's trademark bumbling and overestimation of his intelligence.

 

[~The Koopa King~]

it's just sad the last patch didn't do a thing for him at all

 

[SecretAsianMan]

also if they remove the pickup mechanic and just make it auto zap back to krool then we'd lose a reason to use battlefield for krownbounces

 

[Deleted member]

also if they remove the pickup mechanic and just make it auto zap back to krool then we'd lose a reason to use battlefield for krownbounces

But has Smash since Sm4sh made any patches involving a mechanic change? If not, this seems like wishful thinking, or there's a different reason.

 

[Sirfishe]

i say k rool is low mid tier. For someone who strictly plays k rool, i think people have underestimate him a bit now. Some of his moves come out very quick. If K rool had less end lag on a lot of his moves and if the crown would hit when your being grabbed, honestly he would be very viable. I say his worst matchups are just characters that have a lot of projectiles and rely on spam to win. Snake is a big annoying one

 

[Sirfishe]

As far as results go, i don't think we can even argue IF is the beast superheavy in the game. And im not 100% sure about that, but it seems he has the best representation of them all. seems to have the most problem, but that might be just me not knowing anything aside from K. rool stuff (and i hope it's not true, i like your lazy emperor with his "im sassy and i know it" crouch etc.).

Still, i would like to wait more to see how both and do after those buffs. Not expecting anything big, but who knows?

ps. im still thinking of making a thread to discuss the most common mistakes K. Rool mains might be doing. "Discuss", but im mainly interested to see if im right about some things :D , but i think this might be a good way to improve for everyone? No idea.

I'll tell you one mistake that k rool mains are making and thats they aren't edge guarding with the netural air as much. Just one example

 

[whitesnake]

i say k rool is low mid tier. For someone who strictly plays k rool, i think people have underestimate him a bit now. Some of his moves come out very quick. If K rool had less end lag on a lot of his moves and if the crown would hit when your being grabbed, honestly he would be very viable. I say his worst matchups are just characters that have a lot of projectiles and rely on spam to win. Snake is a big annoying one

you can beat snake consistently with the King! Play more aggressive / rushdown than usual. Keep the action to the middle of the screen when possible. And try to catch him with uair when he recovers high

good luck!

 

[whitesnake]

I'll tell you one mistake that k rool mains are making and thats they aren't edge guarding with the netural air as much. Just one example

yes - for certain matchups like link and the FE characters this is an excellent gimp

 

[Handy Man]

If it means anything, KirbyKid recently won a 501 person online tournament. He went solo King K. Rool and lost only one game the whole tournament.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

If it means anything, KirbyKid recently won a 501 person online tournament. He went solo King K. Rool and lost only one game the whole tournament.

Nice! As I use K. Rool as a pocket character, this brings a smile to my face. Also, I approve of your avatar, Handy Man .

 

[Handy Man]

Nice! As I use K. Rool as a pocket character, this brings a smile to my face. Also, I approve of your avatar, Handy Man .

Thanks! I made the avatar for when I went to EVO 2019. I like to think of it as King K. Rool enjoying and celebrating his new mainstream fame within the Smash community.

 

[Sirfishe]

you can beat snake consistently with the King! Play more aggressive / rushdown than usual. Keep the action to the middle of the screen when possible. And try to catch him with uair when he recovers high

good luck!

one thing that seems to work is usually snake players recover, they go up away from the stage and come back down from the top. Sometimes if you get lucky, i use my recovery to just launch him up out of the stage. Its always a 50% chance you'll get the kill

 

[Deleted member]

Reviving this thread because Min Min being a bane to heavies is not helping Krool be anything better than a garbage low tier.

 

[Handy Man]

Reviving this thread because Min Min being a bane to heavies is not helping Krool be anything better than a garbage low tier.

Are there even any notable Min Min mains who have won tournaments? We have people like Ben Gold and KirbyKid that have won stacked and large tournaments with solo King K. Rool, and they had to fight some horrendious matchups like Mario and Young Link to get to the top. Ben Gold even took a game off of Samsora’s Peach, another tough matchup.

I know it’s an unfair comparison, since Min Min released in a time where locals are non-existant, but I honestly haven’t heard many success stories with her myself. Plus, Min Min isn’t a high tier either. Rushdown characters like Wolf, Roy, and Joker destroy her, and her disadvantage stage is one of the worst in the game.

Yes, King K. Rool does have a lot of bad matchups. But so do many other characters in this game. The roster will have over 80 characters when all of the DLC is released, so it’s expected for not everyone to be an excellent character for tournaments. But even I won a couple of small tournaments with King K. Rool, and he got buffed multiple times over the last few patches.

Min Min may be a hard matchup for King K. Rool, but considering what happened with his playerbase and buffs since release, I would disagree with calling him a “garbage low tier”. He’s not a fast character with combos, so he doesn’t fit in the game’s meta. But he can win in his own way by stuffing out approaches, punishing hard with reads, and creating walls. King K. Rool is just different. Min Min also doesn’t fit the citera of the meta and is different too. That’s okay, because it would be boring in my opinion if every character had to be played in a similar way in order to win.