Just a theory. Need peoples opinions.

[RaptorTEC]

*Me talking to a new Yoshi since he asked me to help out his Yoshi*

Spoiler

[7/27/2012 8:07:58 PM] Raptor: this stuff just comes to you with time keep playing and eventually everything comes as instinct
[7/27/2012 8:08:05 PM] Airslash: I've been playing Yoshi six years and I still suck
[7/27/2012 8:08:05 PM] Airslash:
[7/27/2012 8:08:23 PM] Raptor: tbh dont try to ask for too much advice on what to do in certain situations in every single situation
[7/27/2012 8:08:37 PM] Raptor: imo that slows people down from getting better
[7/27/2012 8:08:43 PM] Raptor: because youre not playing by instinct anymore
[7/27/2012 8:08:52 PM] Raptor: youre playing by what you think is supposed to be done
[7/27/2012 8:09:33 PM] Raptor: why do you think most top players dont know why the stuff they do works?
[7/27/2012 8:09:46 PM] Raptor: because theyre playing by instinct and just doing things that they feel will work
[7/27/2012 8:10:00 PM] Airslash: Reading the opponent, right?
[7/27/2012 8:12:30 PM] Raptor: many theory crafters on smashboards and people who spend a lot of time researching their character usually suck from what ive noticed. and then people like anti ally and other pros never read up on anything. they literally just played a lot and learned all these things about the game on their own. Did you know ANti didnt know until last year that get up attack from the ledge after 100% is a slower animation? but in the end did that matter? no because he learned better things that come by instinct.
[7/27/2012 8:12:39 PM] Raptor: and no not just reading your opponent
[7/27/2012 8:13:00 PM] Airslash: Whoa, never realized all that...
[7/27/2012 8:13:28 PM] Raptor: think about this for a second
[7/27/2012 8:13:34 PM] Raptor: new player comes to the scene
[7/27/2012 8:13:45 PM] Raptor: wants to main uhhhhhh
[7/27/2012 8:14:01 PM] Raptor: lets go with Snake for this example
[7/27/2012 8:14:20 PM] Raptor: now this new player read up on snake asked many questions on how he should be played what to do in certain situations and watched vids of ally
[7/27/2012 8:15:17 PM] Raptor: based on what he learned he tries to DUPLICATE what he sees but doesnt really fully understand whats going on or why it should be done that way
[7/27/2012 8:15:58 PM] Raptor: so in a tourney match he remembers ally went for an Fsmash on someone and hit it to win the game.
[7/27/2012 8:16:07 PM] Airslash: Yeah, that makes sense, cause brawl is situtational
[7/27/2012 8:16:28 PM] Raptor: he thinks it will work for him in his match because the situation looks similar
[7/27/2012 8:16:37 PM] Raptor: he goes for it and it doesnt hit and he loses
[7/27/2012 8:17:47 PM] Raptor: Now the reason it worked for ally is because in the situation he was in it came to him by instinct that if he goes for an fsmash he would be able to punish a spotdodge
[7/27/2012 8:18:47 PM] Raptor: the reason it doesnt work for new player is because he tries to go for things other people say will work or things he has seen work. but it doesnt come to him by instinct. hes thinking too much about whats "supposed" to be done and thats deterring his progress
[7/27/2012 8:19:49 PM] Raptor: I honestly think people should just keep playing their character and not give up
[7/27/2012 8:20:11 PM] Airslash: I guess I should stop going after what people say to do so much and just use my instincts, I never thought of it that way, lol. Thanks dude.
[7/27/2012 8:20:12 PM] Raptor: because all these things that are supposed to be done will eventually be learned anyway on your own
[7/27/2012 8:21:03 PM] Raptor: I started playing this game in late 2010 btw
[7/27/2012 8:21:26 PM] Raptor: I came to smashboards and read up about DR. thats the only thing i ever read up. I never even tried it though lol.
[7/27/2012 8:21:36 PM] Raptor: since then i just played and played and got good.
[7/27/2012 8:22:08 PM] Raptor: i think about 8 months ago around dec 2011 i finally read up on some of the Yoshi guides and stuff
[7/27/2012 8:22:18 PM] Raptor: and i was like "lol i know all this stuff already though"
[7/27/2012 8:23:09 PM] Airslash: I was doing that for a few years, I guess I just started seeking help because I didn't really know what I was doing wrong, but I also don't want to just copy players, I wanna learn what I have to do in situations in which I don't know that I don't just copy, but I do have to go by instinct because it's completely different each game, and you're right by the only way to improve is to do it on my own
[7/27/2012 8:24:24 PM] Raptor: but like you should still ask about how some mu's should be played out thats a little different
[7/27/2012 8:25:12 PM] Raptor: mu's sometimes need to be learned not on your own. just look at m2k and Olimar xD
[7/27/2012 8:25:21 PM] Raptor: he always gets ***** by them
[7/27/2012 8:25:55 PM] Airslash: Yeah, lol. I don't know what to do vs Snake, that's my worst MU xD
[7/27/2012 8:26:07 PM] Airslash: Hard for Yoshi
[7/27/2012 8:26:08 PM] Airslash: D:
[7/27/2012 8:26:59 PM] Airslash: I always die from his utilt
[7/27/2012 8:27:01 PM] Airslash: </3
[7/27/2012 8:27:08 PM] Raptor: oh
[7/27/2012 8:27:26 PM] Raptor: i learned a little from delta for the snake mu at sktar recently
[7/27/2012 8:29:26 PM] Airslash: Thanks for the advice
[7/27/2012 8:29:27 PM] Airslash: btw
[7/27/2012 8:29:40 PM] Raptor: like sometimes I will go for what i do and sometimes i will go for what he said
[7/27/2012 8:29:47 PM] Raptor: yeah
[7/27/2012 8:30:32 PM] Raptor: once you start figuring out most stuff on your own and have a very good understanding of Yoshi THATS when you can start asking on what you can do better
[7/27/2012 8:30:40 PM] Raptor: we all have a limit
[7/27/2012 8:30:42 PM] Airslash: Yeah
[7/27/2012 8:31:04 PM] Raptor: but if we start asking before we even understand then thats just going to make us play based on what others tell you to do and not instinct.

Hopefully this makes sense to people. I'm not saying to never ask for help but I believe playing based on what others tell you to do is counter productive. This should be done when you reach a higher level and already understand most on your own. THAT'S when you can start watching stuff and seeing what you can improve on because you already understand most of the stuff on your own and can play by instinct. Why do you think people who know so much about the game usually suck or aren't as good as they should be? No offense :/

Zane. wrote at 5:30 PM on Aug 8, 2012 :
Another question. What about the smashers that know every little damn thing about the game? Like the smash researchers back on SWF and whatnot. They know every aspect of the game but a lot of them just seem to have lackluster performance, when they really know their character's options down to the frame.

I would appreciate if some top players came into this thread and tell us how much they studied their character and did research and if they did, at what point. I think there will be a few exceptions but it should be very minimal imo. Thoughts?

 

[Vermanubis]

In my opinion, having an encyclopedic knowledge of something is only supplementary. I've also noticed that a lot of the players who're Smash textbooks have a performance that's a little contrary to their expertise.

I think the answer can be found in the fact that creating a paradigm of absolutes tends to stymie a person's ability to exploit another thinking mind rather than the character alone. By creating a paradigm of absolutes, I mean that these kinds of people tend to rigidly designate certain decisions into categories of either "stupid" or "smart," and "safe" or "unsafe."

Stupid decisions are not stupid decisions by virtue of anything other than context, and similarly, smart decisions are not smart by their own virtue. This is the entire concept of a metagame, really, in that which it's the mental climate by which one can make informed decisions based on how the other player will likely react. Snake's FTilt may be safe, but if you do nothing but safe moves, you become predictable and FTilt suddenly becomes unsafe. As a Ganon main, I know this all too well, in that which I'm forced to make decisions that seem brilliant if they land, and ******** if they miss.

If you rely on a binary mindset rather than a context-based one, i.e., safe and unsafe vs. what is my opponent expecting, and what factors can I weigh to make the best decision possible given the scenario rather than the safest, then you'll get stuck. If someone knows every frame and every esoteric shred of information, then it's tempting to feel invincible. However, if you consider another similar scenario, this is also how computers play. They don't read you or trick you; they take the shortest route from A to B.

You'll probably notice that some theorycrafters will also obsess over how to exploit a given character, rather than how to exploit the player into misusing their character's strengths. As a final example, Ganon's wizkick is not a safe move, nor is it typically considered smart. However, since the opponent knows this, depending on their opponent's competency, they'll not expect too many wizkicks. If they allow themselves to be pigeonholed into this way of thinking, then they'll get hit with "stupid" moves, e.g. wizkicks, because a "stupid" move made in this way becomes a "smart" move. Unwillingness to take risks a good player doesn't make.

For people who're supposed to be the spirit of the metagame, some theorycrafters and technicians do seem to have a surprisingly low understanding of the metagame; or at least a surprisingly low ability to apply that understanding. Not at all meaning to cut anyone down, but in general, I have definitely noticed that 9/10, when a given player's flowchart against Ganon or any other bad character doesn't work, they become pretty quickly frustrated and seem to have a difficult time working around their inert model of play against said character.

On the topic of character study, I think the best use of information is to independently apply all new information, and create a sort of theoretical tree of options against and from said idea or action. For a simple example, if I DAir someone as Ganon, I can either go directly for the follow-up at low%, or risk not getting any follow-up and opt for a more severe punish that may potentially miss. An inquisitive mind fond of "if" scenarios is typically the kind found in the heads of great players. If I do this move, this character has these options, and given these options and a variety of decision-making variables, you choose the option that you feel achieves the greatest equilibrium in terms of certain considerations such as how likely it is to hit, risk/reward, etc.

Though I highly doubt I'd be considered a top level player, my study of Ganon was mostly practical. I'd make a mental document of what the properties of certain moves were, and thought to myself about how to apply them in response to a given character. If there were trouble moves, or troublesome playstyles, I'd do my best to consider what tools Ganon had to deal with them, even if unsafe. For instance, against Marth, Ganon can't get by his FAir walls without a lot of tribulation. Wizkick though, if timed right, can slide in between whiffed FAirs. Or bait someone on the ledge by wizkicking to the ledge, tempting them to punish it, but wizkick cancel and FAir their attempted GUA.

In closing, knowing a lot about your character can be a tremendous help, but as I opened this post with, knowing everything about your character is only supplementary. A limited character can only go so far, which is where ingenuity takes precedence over a pool of knowledge if the opponent knows how to manipulate that knowledge.

 

[Airslash]

Thanks to his advice I three stocked the best brawlers in the world!

./shot

but his advice has seriously helped me, I have to say... I'm much more confident about going to an offline tournament <3

 

[Delta-cod]

Raptor, just wanted to say I agree entirely with what you said. Verm also said really true things.

Speaking for myself, I've never actually studied Yoshi frame-wise or guide-wise. I pretty much just read up on who I could CG and what my options were, and then just played. When I first started, I thought about the game constantly and was always trying to think up new things to do in certain situations, so yeah. I also usually tell the newbie Yoshis to figure things out themselves, because it helps them get much better than if I were to just tell them what to do. It's also why I give really general critiques on videos.

People tend to ask me what frame Nair comes out on, and I just tell them "Iunno, I just know it combo breaks."

 

[infiniteV115]

ESAM definitely knows a ****ton about his character and has a strong understanding of frame data. Yes, it's possible to be good without that knowledge (eg Anti) because practice makes you better at virtually everything, and Anti played a ****ton on Wifi back in the day AFAIK.
Ally and M2K have also been playing for a very long time as well.
Then there's also the factor of people being naturally better at this game at others, people being quicker learners, etc etc. The out-of-game human aspect to the players.

I don't approve of your assertion that studying is bad because it makes you think about what you're doing and you shouldn't be thinking about what you're doing. You also assert that top players only play off on instinct and they "dont know why the stuff they do works", care to back this up?

Knowledge in and of itself can only benefit you, but yes a lot of the time people focus too much on the technical aspects of the game and forget to apply their own thoughts/instincts...eg if a Falco player watches the Metagame Minute episode about the silent laser-->grab and they do it all the time...but keep screwing up the silent laser or they don't notice their lasers are stale or they don't notice that the opponent is avoiding the whole thing by rolling behind them and punishing the whiffed grab, you wouldn't tell the Falco player "I should have just never told you about it", you would say "STOP BEING AN IDIOT AND DOING THE SAME **** OVER AND OVER AGAIN"

TL;DR Knowledge is power. Some people become worse with knowledge but that's because they're focusing too much on the application of said knowledge and forget that they have to throw in their own brilliance to stand a chance in competitive play. Knowledge is never the problem, it's the player.

 

[etecoon]

a lot of people that theorize heavily are bad but I can also think of examples of ones who are good(havok and TKD are great examples), I think in the end brawl is about basic skills though. reaction time, quick thinking, accurate inputs, reading etc, these are way more important than necessarily knowing everything about every situation(look at how a lot of top players can play half the cast, they obviously don't have that encyclopedic knowledge going for them there)

I don't find that just playing on raw instinct tends to work out well for me though, if I do that I tend to just do a lot of really fast inputs that aren't necessarily good options, or I play over defensive/aggressive and it doesn't work. my best play has been when I can just instantly process everything the opposing character can do, my own options against it, and the risk:reward and probability of each...just a transcendent level of focus. I have no idea how to do that on a consistent basis though, I've only gone into that zone like three times maybe in the past 4 years of playing this game(and OF COURSE, it was never during tournament)

 

[RaptorTEC]

V115 I'm not saying thinking is bad. That's why I said many times that obtaining knowledge is good but not until you understand whats going on first.

And I'm going off personal experience when i hear someone ask top players for help in tourneys. They usually say something along those lines. If you need written stuff then read this I guess. http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=140473

 

[Delta-cod]

V115, I don't think the point is that studying is necessarily bad. The point is that studying through other people rather than through your own experimentation limits your mental growth as a player.

etecoon, I think your definition of instant processing is what I'd label as instinct.

 

[Rayquaza07]

i agree with the fact that knowledge doesnt make u better but knowing that snake can bair or utilt safely when he grs wario helps in that mu

 

[infiniteV115]

I still disagree with the idea of not taking advice about what to do in a certain situation. I mean yeah of course you run the risk of taking bad advice cause you're asking a ****ty player, or someone who doesn't know the situation/that MU, but a lot of the time people hit mental blocks when they play and it's why they ask for advice. Sometimes you need people to tell you that it's okay to land with a bair with Snake, or to do a backroll with ZSS, or to use your sideB kick when recovering with Diddy, cause a lot of newer players may not consider these options since they're punishable and risky.

idk it just seems like you're (Raptor) saying whenever someone takes advice from a better player, said better player will say "Every time you're in this situation, do THIS". If you're getting advice from a good player, they'll tell you that you have multiple options in any scenario. And a piece of advice commonly given to people getting their matches critiqued is that they need to mix it up.

 

[Vermanubis]

Like I said above, I think the best way to go about things is to study other people so you can understand the properties of a given move, then innovate your own uses for it.

When I first started playing SSFIV, I watched a lot of Poongko's videos to find out what Seth could and couldn't do, and over time, began to apply the essence of what I learned rather than copying Poongko or just doing what frame data says is safe. For example, Seth can SPD any Shoto out of their Tatsumaki on block, but if they're expecting that, that gives you an opportunity to do something potentially more damaging. The SPD is perfectly safe, but 150 damage from an SPD can't compare to 300+ from a mix-up.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I still disagree with the idea of not taking advice about what to do in a certain situation. I mean yeah of course you run the risk of taking bad advice cause you're asking a ****ty player, or someone who doesn't know the situation/that MU, but a lot of the time people hit mental blocks when they play and it's why they ask for advice. Sometimes you need people to tell you that it's okay to land with a bair with Snake, or to do a backroll with ZSS, or to use your sideB kick when recovering with Diddy, cause a lot of newer players may not consider these options since they're punishable and risky.

idk it just seems like you're (Raptor) saying whenever someone takes advice from a better player, said better player will say "Every time you're in this situation, do THIS". If you're getting advice from a good player, they'll tell you that you have multiple options in any scenario. And a piece of advice commonly given to people getting their matches critiqued is that they need to mix it up.

I should probably be more specific (this was taken out of a skype convo so It is vague in some areas) I'm not literally saying dont ask anything at all or dont look some stuff up. Things like what characters you can cg, which character you can upsmash out of gr, or which character you can gr to spike (Yoshi stuff lol) is fine, but when you go around asking what you should have done in situation A or what you should improve on without actually understanding why then it's not helping much. This is mostly to new players. If you start to develop a good understanding of the game, then you are able to use the knowledge better.

 

[ninjapenguin]

I never really thought about it this way. This really changed my thinking on things. I've always kind of tried to take a little bit of everyone's playstyle and mesh it into something that i personally am comfortable with and fully understand. If you try to carbon copy someone else, your skill can only get so high, which won't necessarily happen because you don't understand why they do what they do.

I definitely don't think it will hurt to ask players better than you for advice or even read guides on SWF, but it can't govern your entire playstyle. A good example is when i would play MK dittos. I could never beat glide attack, so i just always shielded it. I also had a hard time punishing it. I read an article somewhere on here, and it said that nado beats glide attack. That's a free 10% on my opponent now, instead of taking several percent damage when they chose that option. There's definitely benifits to research/getting tips from others,

 

[Ayoub]

≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡

Yay.

 

[Luigisama]

I agree with this.
I think the same can be applied to mus.

 

[infiniteV115]

I should probably be more specific (this was taken out of a skype convo so It is vague in some areas) I'm not literally saying dont ask anything at all or dont look some stuff up. Things like what characters you can cg, which character you can upsmash out of gr, or which character you can gr to spike (Yoshi stuff lol) is fine, but when you go around asking what you should have done in situation A or what you should improve on without actually understanding why then it's not helping much. This is mostly to new players. If you start to develop a good understanding of the game, then you are able to use the knowledge better.

I guess that's the key part I was missing.
Regardless, I don't think many good players give out advice without explaining it..and even if they don't explain it, it's up to the noob to attempt to gain an understanding rather than to just memorize and regurgitate the information.

I don't actually know what your thesis is anymore. Are you trying to say that it's better to learn on your own rather than to ask for advice because you run the risk of receiving advice and regurgitating it without understanding it, which will worsen your gameplay?

If that's what you're trying to say, I have to disagree. I'd rather say something like "Get all the advice you can and understand WHY all of it works. If there's any remaining advice that you still don't understand then don't use it until you DO understand it"

 

[Orion*]

i'm gonna have to agree with v115 here

anti/ally/nairo have played TREMENDOUS amounts of hours and have ridiculous reaction time
in the end different people get better in different ways

 

[Dekillsage]

E-sports

I agree with Verm on theorycrafting players. A lot of them end up being bad players because they're using their knowledge incorrectly. Due to the lack of actual experience they'll come up with a way that they feel is the best way to play a match up, but what ends up happening is they end up thinking for their opponent. I know this all too well as I have done it in the past. The inability to adapt to their opponents and change their approach to the match up during a match results in getting hit by those "unsafe moves" or just straight up losing. You can't react to a 4frame Ftilt or a 5 frame dash attack from snake. However, if you're looking for said attacks then you end up seeing players block them and punish them properly.

It's what makes top players look like they have godlike reaction times but the truth is(in most cases) those players have experienced scenario after scenario and have developed an answer for the majority of them, if not all of them.

I also have to disagree with not asking other players for advice. Yes, some players when you ask them will tell you they don't understand what they did but the truth is they DO know what they did. They just can't put it into words. This is where you go on the forums and read up on frame data, strategies, find videos, and read the top 5 thread for laughs. It's here where you learn how your fellow players deal with a match up, their strategies, approaches, gimmicks, etc. In addition to this you learn how your opponents play the match up. If you only watch 1 person fight 1 player in 1 matchup, you'll never learn all there is too it. You wont get the full picture, it wont work in tournament because maybe that snake guy is using his explosives completely different or have a better use of dash attack. But, maybe you play an underused character and can't find more videos and you're all alone and have no one to play with. This is where you read the FRAME DATA to educate yourself on every characters abilities.

When you read frame data you don't just read it and go "Hey I just learned snakes ftilt is 4 frames. He's too fast guaaaa". You take your new found knowledge and go "okay this move is fast, has tons of range and if I get hit I'll take like 21% before scaling. Maybe I should try standing just out of his grab range and in his ftilt range, block and then grab to punish ftilt 1 if he hits my shield because its NOT SAFE ON BLOCK GUYS." Unless you play yoshi or link or w/e. I dunno if it'll work well for them. BUT NOW you have 1 new option, another tool you can use in a long and mentally exhausting set.

The point I'm doing terrible at making is you need to have both experience and knowledge to win. Understanding the games numbers gives you the ability to punish moves you had trouble with in the past, or even confirm your hopelessness making it so that you have to find a new approach to that scenario. Having experience gives you the ability to adapt and use your knowledge properly, instead of trying to punish something that your opponent isn't even trying or not expecting a move because you declared it unusable.

Tl;dr-

 

[Coney]

wisdom > knowledge

 

[Vermanubis]

I think the best example of that kinda player that both Sage and I are referring to is the kind that gets punished, or gets mindgamed and goes "...wait, my grab is supposed to come out on frame 3!!!!," or "...that's not safe on block, I should've grabbed you!"

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Raptor, the point you were trying to convey was legit, but you went about it in a really dumb way.

Cause saying that top players just rely on instinct is ignorant as **** lol

 

[BSP]

In my opinion, having an encyclopedic knowledge of something is only supplementary. I've also noticed that a lot of the players who're Smash textbooks have a performance that's a little contrary to their expertise.

Agree with this.

IMO, the #1 thing you need to do if you want to get better is play against good people. IMO it's not how long you've been playing, but it's who you've been playing against. Nothing is going to beat actually playing against people who will punish you for making bad decisions.

The amount of knowledge and research each top player does is varied, but the one thing they have in common is that they play the game against good people a lot.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Raptor, the point you were trying to convey was legit, but you went about it in a really dumb way.

Cause saying that top players just rely on instinct is ignorant as **** lol

I never said top players ONLY rely on instinct @_@ They probably have researched but the question is at what point, if it isn't early on in the learning process then they really didn't learn through research now did they? I believe most of the top players learned on their own through playing a lot and then learned some other things through other players or sources after they understood the game well enough.

The problem with most new players learning through others is that they don't actually understand what's going on yet. Getting all the knowledge in the world doesnt mean anything at all if you don't know how to use it. You can tell someone new "you should have went for move A over move B" and explain why, but the truth is that player probably doesn't fully understand. There's just too many little things going on at any given time in this game.

It's a little silly when I over hear things like "How did that even hit me I spotdodged!" as D3 or "My super armor was supposed to beat that!". Stuff like that.

Tl;dr I suck at explaining things >.>

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Teach the 5 fundamental skills of Smash instead, imo:

1. Game Knowledge - Understanding of the game's mechanics including frame data, hitboxes, physics, etc...
2. Mind-Gaming - Reading and baiting your opponent whilst remaining unpredictable.
3. Decision Making - Using the above knowledge to decide which option to choose in each situation.
4. Technical Ability - Being able to physically pull off the option you chose in criterion 3.
5. Mentality - Not making mistakes with the above 4 criteria.

When a player loses, it is because they got out-played in one or more of these areas (or just got unlucky, I suppose). So when I lose, I just run through that list:

Giving advice like "just learn... 90% from experience and 10% from asking people I suppose, cause that's how da pros do it" is almost like the problem you brought up in your post (with the "super armour was supposed to beat that" example).

Players don't need teaching, they need to know how they can teach themselves.

 

[Trela]

Did you know ANti didnt know until last year that get up attack from the ledge after 100% is a slower animation?

That's funny. I didn't know about that either until just now.

 

[ANTi_]

That's funny. I didn't know about that either until just now.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

I was so surprised when I found that out.

 

[BSP]

Trela can do all that flashy Aura Sphere **** and just learned that.

Experience is #1

 

[RaptorTEC]

Trela can do all that flashy Aura Sphere **** and just learned that.

Experience is #1

This.
10somuchthis

 

[TreK]

Well I suppose I'm part of those guys that know a lot and yet have bad performances.
I find myself talking about a lot of tricks and facts to a lot to players who perform far better than me... And yet, just put a single hurdle in my path, say an abnormally campy snake, and I'll fall.
The lack of experience/practice causes this. I know what the game should look like, but sometimes it doesn't fit my narrow vision of it and I can't adapt quickly enough.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Then you probably don't know as much about the game as you think you do.

 

[Luigisama]

but sometimes it doesn't fit my narrow vision of it and I can't adapt quickly enough.

Then you probably don't know as much about the game as you think you do.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Grim Tuesday]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

Well I suppose I'm part of those guys that know a lot

 

[TreK]

Don't make it sound like I'm showing off. Having a good memory and being good at brawl are two different things. You can't 'memorize' spacing, mix ups, DI, creating openings and recovering, which make the difference between two players.
Most of the stuff I know is useless (some nair followups for diddy kong at 0% ? the frame data for DDD's fsmash ? the color repartition of pikmin plucks on custom stages ?), but still obscure to some players who are way more skilled than me.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I was merely quoting the part of the post I was referring to, because Luigisama was confused.

All I'm saying is, knowing random facts =/= knowing a lot about the game. Otherwise, your reason for not being a top player would be more like "I get nervous really easily" rather than "I don't know how to handle a campy Snake".

 

[Luigisama]

I was merely quoting the part of the post I was referring to, because Luigisama was confused.

All I'm saying is, knowing random facts =/= knowing a lot about the game. Otherwise, your reason for not being a top player would be more like "I get nervous really easily" rather than "I don't know how to handle a campy Snake".

I wasn't confused.

Teneban pretty much it's good that you know facts about the game. Nothing wrong with that. But it won't help if lets say you read a whole set of info on how to handle a campy snake written by like a pro player and everything he wrote is all 100% true.

Then with this info you play against Ultimaterazer or havok. Just because you read this info and memorized it doesn't mean you automatically will win. You actually have to play brawl and make decisions that you feel will work in certain situations. Sure you can use the info you learned, but it won't guarantee a win.

 

[TreK]

All I'm saying is, knowing random facts =/= knowing a lot about the game.

And all I'm saying is, knowing a lot about the game =/= being good at the game.

Let's just have concrete examples, grim. I'll talk about Luigi because it's the only character I can play at a decent competitive level, but I'll try to make it so anyone can understand my points.
First, please read that chart : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199907
Now that you have, swear to me that you could just launch your game disk, pick Luigi against a random CPU, jab him and decide what followup fits the best between jab2, upB, or dsmash. You can pause at the start of the match and read the chart if you don't want to memorize everything.
I don't think you will be able to, even with the info from that chart. Why ? Because you would have to identify which SDI the cpu performs, out of the 9 possible SDIs, and which hitbox connects, out of the three hitboxes of Luigi's jab, and only then take a decision. All of that, within the matter of 10-15 frames.
That takes experience and reflexes, knowledge alone won't do a thing.

And that was just taking a single, straightforward decision. This is Luigi mains' everyday routine, we do this without even paying attention. Much, much more experience is needed in order to make that jab connect in the first place. You can't just go in, 'knowing' a couple ways to land a jab. Your opponent will react and you won't be able to land a single jab by the end of game 1. You have to make strategies on the spot. Several skills that are not related to knowledge in any way are used in SSB : reflexes, creativity, technical consistency, mental consistency, adaptability, ...

By watching a match, in example, I can understand why did each player end up with making the decisions that they made, because I know what they were trying to avoid, and what they were trying to force. But if I had been the one playing, I wouldn't have made such good decisions, because I would have lacked the speed in my decision making, the creativity in my strategies, the awareness in my mindset.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Experience isn't a skill, it is a way of acquiring skills (including knowledge).

Unfortunately, you've wasted 364 words on a strawman. I never said knowing a lot about the game = being good at the game.

 

[kismet2]

good thread for new players. verm's first post and grim's fundamental needs list are things they should look at as well.

 

[SoulPech]

That icecream cone...I want it.

 

[kismet2]

soon...ice cream cone