Junior and the Koopalings Game Play Discussion

[T-block]

Even if our grab sucks, throws will ALWAYS have a purpose just because they are the cleanest option to beat shield. Even if we don't have kill throws or get mad followups off them, it's worth mixing into your game; otherwise, shielding is much stronger against you than it should be.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

Even if our grab sucks, throws will ALWAYS have a purpose just because they are the cleanest option to beat shield. Even if we don't have kill throws or get mad followups off them, it's worth mixing into your game; otherwise, shielding is much stronger against you than it should be.

I've always seemed to drop grabs with him, is it really that bad? Might explain a lot then.

 

[T-block]

I don't have the frame data to confirm, but it feels slow like a tether grab, but without the range of a tether (might be slightly better range than "normal" grabs, but still pretty bad... grab ranges seem to be globally nerfed in this iteration).

 

[TakeAChance]

Hey guys, Long time NRS player here (MK9 and Injustice) taking a dip into Smash.

I got a lot to learn lol

I did find this little nugget today in the lab tho.

At low percentages, you can get a nice little setup if you get a hit with the cart. Side B into Jump Down Air Then dash toward the direction the opponent is spit out and input a grab. It's not a true combo(the throw), but you cannot attack or jump out of it as far as I have tested in training. The only way to escape the grab is via air dodge. It gets good because off the same dash you can input your dash attack (the buzz saw) which stays active long enough to punish their air dash creating a nice little mind game.

This setup into a backthrow does 30% damage. The setup into saw also does 30% damage.

Would someone mind tinkering and confirming?

I am also toying with cart into down air cancelled into a quick landing. There seems to be some real potential there.

 

[Prawn]

Even if our grab sucks, throws will ALWAYS have a purpose just because they are the cleanest option to beat shield. Even if we don't have kill throws or get mad followups off them, it's worth mixing into your game; otherwise, shielding is much stronger against you than it should be.

Dis true. When people are at kill percents they camp in shields.

Bthrow kills at high percents, also uthrow -> BAIR can kill against characters with poor air speed(its completely avoidable and punishable though)

 

[Exegguter]

Our grab doesn't ''suck'' though.

His pummel is very fast so you'll almost always get a pummel per grab after 30/40%

Grab range and speed is perfectly fine to me. Damage is also really good. 2 pummels and a bthrow does like 16%. That's a neat punish.

Fthrow can be used into gimpmixups (if thrown offstage) or to throw near a mechakoopa.

Dthrow is the only throw that leaves no benefits after the throw whatsoever but it still does 11% with 1 pummel which is nice damage.

I really don't know what you guys are expecting haha

 

[RWB]

Anybody have an ideo of an optimal special loadout?

I'm thinking:
B: Standard
Side B: Standard or #2 Faster Koopa Klown Kart
Up B: #Eject Explosion(I suppose for those risky players out there, #3 Downward Eject's power might be worth it).
Down B: I feel like all the choices have merit vs different opponents...

 

[Sudai]

I like the fast cannon ball but other than that I agree on that list.

 

[Kit Cal-N]

B: 3: Vortex Cannon
Side-B: 1: Standard (I NEED that pop up on hit)
Down-B: 1: Standard
Up-B: 2: Meteor (spiking is fun)

 

[RWB]

B: 3: Vortex Cannon
Side-B: 1: Standard (I NEED that pop up on hit)
Down-B: 1: Standard
Up-B: 2: Meteor (spiking is fun)

You probably know better than me, I've used Jr all of 5 matches. XD

 

[Krysco]

My current set up is:
B 1
DownB 3 although for some matchups I'll probably want 1
UpB 1 since I only have 1 and 3 at the moment and I don't know what 2 does
And I have 3 different sets, one for each sideB since I find them all useful. 1 allows setups, 2 allows recovery and 3 also allows setups.

As for his (or her if you're using Wendy) throws, I only care for fthrow and bthrow. The former to get them off stage and the latter for damage and getting them off stage. Since we have a fast uair and our upB hammer swing, uthrow could possibly be used to juggle/ko but it'd be a pretty hard read. Uthrow also seems to throw backwards a bit, kinda like Wolf's bthrow in terms of direction so bair could be used too but again it'd be a hard read at best.

 

[T-block]

Our grab doesn't ''suck'' though.

His pummel is very fast so you'll almost always get a pummel per grab after 30/40%

Grab range and speed is perfectly fine to me. Damage is also really good. 2 pummels and a bthrow does like 16%. That's a neat punish.

Fthrow can be used into gimpmixups (if thrown offstage) or to throw near a mechakoopa.

Dthrow is the only throw that leaves no benefits after the throw whatsoever but it still does 11% with 1 pummel which is nice damage.

I really don't know what you guys are expecting haha

If you think our grab speed is good you're craaaaaazy. It's so slow - stuff that other characters would shield grab are safe on our shield.

Still speaking just from experience, but it's pretty clear to me.

 

[TakeAChance]

From my experience, our grab is terrible. I am having a real hard time lately compensating for bowser juniors landing lag. I feel like none of his aerials are free from punishment...and a lot of characters are backdashing and baiting as a result

 

[Lilfut]

Could the Giant Mecha Koopa custom be useful against Little Mac? Seems like it would be better for stage control, but I could be totally wrong.

 

[Sudai]

His grab is super slow but thanks to pivot grabbing it's usable. His pivot grab range is huuggeee.

 

[Exegguter]

If you think our grab speed is good you're craaaaaazy. It's so slow - stuff that other characters would shield grab are safe on our shield.

Still speaking just from experience, but it's pretty clear to me.

I really need framedata man. I feel like it's faster than link's/samus'/zss' their grab and as fast as olimar's grab.

 

[Sudai]

So I found something new at 0% I think.

Normal cart knockback > jump DAir > dash a short distance > USmash is a thing. True combo in training. With vectoring it's probably not a true combo but it'd be tight timing to get out.

Against bigger characters (only tried DK, Bowser, and Palutena, didn't work on Palu) you can replace the dash > USmash with an in place FSmash but it felt like the window was tight so I imagine that won't work at all with vectoring as it barely catches them with the drills.

 

[Kit Cal-N]

So running is not appreciably faster than walking, and his opening dash isn't actually that great. I'm going to have to recommend never running. Walk or Kart.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

I'm starting to get the hang of using utilt and dtilt. These moves are fantastic.
Utilt is an insane anti-air move that also scoops people up. It has a blind spot in front but unless they are using some super long sword, you're going to trade.
Dtilt is amazing for spotdodges and other approaches. It can also severely hamper anyone without an autocancelling up b. It's a huge hitbox with an abnormal amount of knockback for such low damage. I feel like he's a trick character who needs to move around quickly with his cart, much like sonic with his side B.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Some of these might have been found but here are some cart combos.

(These were done on Mario)
side+b - short hop - Dair (19%) (You can do this again but not in the same combo. The opponent will be too high after 27 percent.)
You can chase your opponent if they don't jump out of hitstun for another throw and if they jump use n air or up air after they dodge.
side+b - short hop - N air (13%)
Side+b - short hop- f air (12%)
side+b-short hop- Dair- up tilt (23%)

(bowser was used for this one.)
side+b- short hop- dair- throw (30%) This one i'm not sure i think there is some sort of error with the combo counter in
training mode as when i get the throw the opponent (This one being bowser) is clearly in hitstun and i grab him but the counter goes back to 0. If this is an error then this is a true combo in which its spacing dependent.

 

[Sudai]

I posted it somewhere else on the Jr boards but Cart hit > DAir > Dashing USmash is a true combo at 0% in training. Vectoring probably makes it not a true combo but it's still a really nice set-up if they vector it.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

How have you guys been doing in tournament? Are these followups to a cart smash working or are they DI/Vectorable?
I'm seeing a lot of people not adapting well to the Side B mixups, including spinout and jump cancels.
If customs are legal in your area, which ones are you using?

 

[WieldyMinotaur]

Dunno if this is noticed but I believe that Jrs Kart attack can be reflected by Marios cape. Happened to me while playing the CPU.

 

[meleebrawler]

Dunno if this is noticed but I believe that Jrs Kart attack can be reflected by Marios cape. Happened to me while playing the CPU.

Well, that would probably just be the cape's standard turnaround effect on characters.

 

[WieldyMinotaur]

Well, that would probably just be the cape's standard turnaround effect on characters.

It made me turn around while trying to recover so that could be right.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

It made me turn around while trying to recover so that could be right.

Yeah cape sends you in the other direction and can really mess up your game. Be careful with it. You can always jump cancel last second to bait it out if your opponent is fishing for it.

 

[T-block]

Anyone have comparative frame data on jab and f-tilt? If f-tilt is as fast as jab (I think it might be), there's really no reason to use jab and we should really work on cutting it out of our game.

 

[meleebrawler]

Jab only seems significantly slower if you do more than the first hit
(which Ftilt overpowers in damage).

Jab would probably be better used point blank, to minimize the risk of vectoring.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I might have discovered something new with Bowser Jr. Sorry if this was known.

I was in Arena Ferox Omega vs a Bowser and I used Piercing Cannon by the ledge accidentally and Bowser Jr. ledgesnapped immediately after firing. Later I also noticed he ledgesnaps even if the shot hasn't come out yet. He won't ledgesnap while charging.

 

[Black Mantis]

In the lab with Bowser Jr. on wii u. Somebody please enlighten me on setups/combos that are possible with a gamecube controller.

 

[Fangblade]

Howdy, how do you guys feel about the match up versus TL? We're discussing Bowser Jr. vs TL over at the TL threads this week. Him being a new character there's much to be learned.

 

[NidoMay]

I don't think the grab's AWFUL per say but from a standing position it's a bit slow. It's kinda like a midpoint between regular grabs and hookshot/grapple grabs.
So I've mostly done either running grabs or what works better: grabbing out of a shield. It's a shame that a mechakoopa, despite "grabbing" an opponent can still be blocked like it doesn't. So really it's important to grab to avoid just being blocked all the time.

I mean, could be worse, could be like Pac-Man's massive miss animation or Ganon's t-rex arms.


And really, I don't see much of an issue with jabbing. Since the update it's been harder for most characters to escape and the follow up can get a surprise kill in when heavier hitting moves won't... well, hit.

EDIT: Just checked. A jab combo+ followup can do 20-22 damage. Ftilt does just 8. For one of Jr's faster attacks, jab is good for racking up early damage.

 

[Shadow_nobody]

Since there isn't really a thread for it I was wonder what is everyone's secondaries? I've been messing around with a lot of characters with the best results coming from a backup ness and D3. But some other chars I've been trying; luigi, falco, WFT

Or what characters are people using vs harder matchups.
personally I struggle against yoshi more than any other character. I just have no idea what to do vs him. Shiek also gives me trouble when trying to deal with her aerials I feel like I'm either just blocking, trading hits, or trying to find space. Basically anyone that wants to approach me from the air seems to give me a lot of trouble (which is wher ness seems to help me.)

 

[RomanceDawn]

Where are the bit boxes on the hammer swing after the Koopa uses upB? Sometimes I feel like the hammer swing goes right through the opponent.

 

[Regulus]

Where are the bit boxes on the hammer swing after the Koopa uses upB? Sometimes I feel like the hammer swing goes right through the opponent.

It starts out with one hitbox behind him (15 damage), 1 in the middle of the swing (10 damage), and one at the end (15 damage)

 

[RomanceDawn]

It starts out with one hitbox behind him (15 damage), 1 in the middle of the swing (10 damage), and one at the end (15 damage)

Ok thanks. I didn't realize it started behind him. This also explains why sometimes I can hit Dedede twice with this move.

 

[Regulus]

Yeah, it's a really underestimated move but the hitboxes are so finicky. Like it's a lot faster than you'd expect. Also the trail it leaves is really misleading.

 

[PSIBoy]

Hey, over on the TL boards, we've hit a rock with the Bowser Jr. and Diddy Kong matchup. If you come and contribute, we'd very much appreciate it. Here's the link: http://smashboards.com/threads/diddy-and-bowser-jr-match-up-re-discussion.384104/#post-18258354. Feel free to contribute!

 

[Lilfut]

Unfortunately, I don't have a whole lot of experience with the MU.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Howdy, how do you guys feel about the match up versus TL? We're discussing Bowser Jr. vs TL over at the TL threads this week. Him being a new character there's much to be learned.

Camping > bowser Jr.