Junior and the Koopalings Game Play Discussion

[CrazyPerson]

Is there any game play differences between Bowser Jr. and the alternate skins?

Hit boxes changed?

Hurt boxes changed because of the different sizes?

 

[Dessa]

I believe they said alt skins play exactly the same.

 

[divade]

^that's fact, yes.

 

[Weruop]

Was chatting with Vicegrip about something Ive known for a while but it seems a lot of people might actually not know about it all.
If you land on a platform or stage at the peak of your upb height, youll land with mere landing lag it appears and can go straight into a jump started cart dash, upsmash, etc.
The spacing/timing can be difficult at first, as well as holding down for a mere moment when youre landing on stage, as to prevent ledgesnapping. But all in all once you have it down, it seems like it can be a really nice surprise tool to catch people off guard, especially combined with cart dash.

if youre practicing consistency, if youre on the edge: tap back to let go, upair, and begin fast falling a little ways into the attack. then UpB asap and it should set you at a good distance for it to cancel. On stages like BF, you can generally let go of the edge, toss an upair, and upb and land on the nearest platform and have it cancel perfectly, as long as you dont really touch the edge of the stage much as your passing it on the way up.

Another interesting bit of info involved using mechakoopas. we can actually still get them to bounce on the stage out of an aerial toss. in a good amount of frames just before landing from the air, you are able to throw a bounce-able mechakoopa downward and itll still bounce up as long as it doesnt hit anyone. ( including shields, i believe)

One last thing involved aerial spinout and sliding afterward vs spinning in place on landing. the window is relatively small but if you use a reliable height reference it seems you can get it down pretty consistently given the circumstances. For me, I've found that if i spinout at a height above the ground where I would theoretically hit Mario in the face/head with my tires, i will spinout in place. there is a little bit of room for fluctuation, but pretty much anything too far above or below that will give you the slide it seems. Trying in training mode vs different characters and finding the window yourself can be very helpful, but all in all it seems like its one of those things you just have to get down consistently. but i am pretty certain that whether or not we slide depends on the height at which we spinout..

 

[Toxin21]

I need someone like a sparring partner with whom I can practice bowser Jr and see if im doing wrong at some point, cuse I have difficulty finding my wk spots for consistency

 

[The_ToolBag]

Was chatting with Vicegrip about something Ive known for a while but it seems a lot of people might actually not know about it all.
If you land on a platform or stage at the peak of your upb height, youll land with mere landing lag it appears and can go straight into a jump started cart dash, upsmash, etc.
The spacing/timing can be difficult at first, as well as holding down for a mere moment when youre landing on stage, as to prevent ledgesnapping. But all in all once you have it down, it seems like it can be a really nice surprise tool to catch people off guard, especially combined with cart dash.

Unfortunately, It won't work on an airdodge, which ruins most of it near the ledge, as it does work on the ledge. Its most practical use is on smashville, but can also be used on stages like battlefield.

 

[The_ToolBag]

Ive been experimenting with up air to dair lately, while the finishing hit of dair is in the air, but I havent found any good followups yet, except for stage control and maybe dumb up-b swings. does anyone else have any knowledge of this?

 

[Duck SMASH!]

Ive been experimenting with up air to dair lately, while the finishing hit of dair is in the air, but I havent found any good followups yet, except for stage control and maybe dumb up-b swings. does anyone else have any knowledge of this?

If you don't land with Dair before the last hitbox, forget about follow ups.
Now... if you drag your opponent back to the ground, you may be onto something...

 

[Weruop]

Unfortunately, It won't work on an airdodge, which ruins most of it near the ledge, as it does work on the ledge. Its most practical use is on smashville, but can also be used on stages like battlefield.

Hm this is true. One thing i rememebered too that can sometimes help versus opponents is if you set a mechakoopa near the edge from up high, like after you get up smashed , and then get down below the ledge real quick to up-b: if that opponent is jumping or falling back a bit orrr shielding, you can sometimes get them to lay off ledge enough to let you sneak in that upb cancel and then get safe real quick and avoid a missed punish if the spacing and timing is all in place. Can be cool to implement if you see the opening

Ive been experimenting with up air to dair lately, while the finishing hit of dair is in the air, but I havent found any good followups yet, except for stage control and maybe dumb up-b swings. does anyone else have any knowledge of this?

Only thing i can honestly think of other than what you stated is trying to drag people horizontally to be above a platform when it ends, and time your falling to try and end just above the platform if possible. This way u can just land for a second and if u see ur opponent use their second jump, you could go for some major aerial/landing pressure, and if you can't get to them in time for a guaranteed follow up, I think you might be at a distance where if they airdodge or throw an aerial (rather than jump) you should have a good chance to dash to the end if the platform and get some sort of hit I would hope.

 

[The_ToolBag]

Also, this is something that Vice was talking about, and I just wanted to expand on it:

When a mech is thrown at an opponent or dropped on them near the ledge, here are the followups:
For Throwing
(ViceTech) 1. Throw the mech at opponent when they are recovering below the stage, and spinout immediately (most %)
2. throw on stage to fair (high %)

For Dropping
(ViceTech) 1. drop on stage and then fastfall off stage and up-b to hammer swing (early to mid %)
2. Drop to immediate spinnout (mid to late %)
3. Drop to reverse spinnout, also sends outward (mid to late %)
4. Drop to kartcancel jump bair (early to late %)

All of these can be utilized at different percents and kill as well.

Also remember that mech is like gyro as the opponent gets hit in the direction your are facing when thrown.

another cool follow up (40-60%) up throw mech a little after mid stage when opponent near the ledge, grab opponent and back throw them into falling mech. Can follow up with various things as the opponent will fly back towards you, and you might be able to up-b to hammer at some percents.

 

[Steelballray]

What does Jr's neutral consist of? What are the options he has in it and if you were to make a simple flowchart for things that he should use in certain situations versus certain archtypes, what would it be like?

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Hey guys, I dunno if this is widely known/used yet, but I was trying to think of ways of beating DK's Ding Dong (cargo up-throw to up-air) guaranteed kill setup. If we get in the percent range of the Ding Dong, we could use our own mechakoopas to give ourselves damage, and escape the max % that he has the guarantee.

 

[C0rvus]

Is Bowser Jr. any good at playing neutral or footsies? Interested in the character but I dunno if he can hang with the big boys, you know?

 

[YSS]

C0rvus : Hey, newcomer to the smashboards here whose experience is pretty much "For Glory" matches, but I'll try to give some pointers on how I play him. My fellow mains can feel free to correct me.

In part because Jr. has such a slow grab, his options against shield are not too stellar. His grab is not totally worthless (its got pretty decent range, for instance) but it simply isn't one of his stronger assets. As such, Jr's neutral is reliant on using his versatile toolset (increased mobility from kart dash, item mindgames with the mechakoopa, etc.) to apply constant pressure to the foe and bait them into bad moves. If you're scrappy enough, you can even deplete the opponent's shield to pretty low levels; it may not break, but it can change how they react to your attacks. So basically, use your disjointed hitboxes, kart dash mixups, and mechakoopa to keep your opponent guessing. The actual execution of a solid strategy, of course, is a little more complicated than that, but the nuances of all these mechanics are what can make Jr so turncoat and unpredictable.

That's what I've got in a nutshell. If you want me to go into more detail on any of the above, just let me know.

 

[C0rvus]

So he's based around mixups involving Kart Dash and Mechakoopa? About what I've seen so far. I guess he wants to avoid playing footsies then, unless any of his ground moves are safe on block. Down tilt maybe? I rarely seem to get punished for that one.

The notion of a mixup based character sounds pretty fun. Imagine if his grab was good. He'd be a triple threat!

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Something that I like to do sometimes is hold my mechakoopa if someone is pressuring my shield, and it'll blow up in their face

 

[YSS]

So he's based around mixups involving Kart Dash and Mechakoopa? About what I've seen so far. I guess he wants to avoid playing footsies then, unless any of his ground moves are safe on block. Down tilt maybe? I rarely seem to get punished for that one.

That's actually another thing I really like about Bowser Jr. Between his fair, fsmash and utilt, Jr. can be great at putting up defensive walls against melee-oriented fighters. With the exception of a poorly spaced fair, in general these attacks can be very difficult to punish and can mess with foes who get too reckless with their approaches. I've even messed up and punished aerial movements by throwing out an up-angled fsmash. Seriously, his fsmash is sick; its got a long lasting attack window, is disjointed, and has very little ending lag which allows you to follow-up quickly with a utilt or ftilt on foes who try to punish it.

The notion of a mixup based character sounds pretty fun. Imagine if his grab was good. He'd be a triple threat!

Well, that may be the reason as to why his grab is slow.

Something that I like to do sometimes is hold my mechakoopa if someone is pressuring my shield, and it'll blow up in their face

Wow, really? Hadn't thought of that before, though I'd be concerned about getting grabbed and subsequently double-whammied (throw damage plus the koopa exploding in my hand afterwards.) Though this tactic could be very useful on fighters with similarly slow grabs! Thanks for sharing.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Wow, really? Hadn't thought of that before, though I'd be concerned about getting grabbed and subsequently double-whammied (throw damage plus the koopa exploding in my hand afterwards.) Though this tactic could be very useful on fighters with similarly slow grabs! Thanks for sharing.

Speaking of self-damage, you can pick up your mechakoopa and run away with it in your hand when you're facing Donkey Kong, when you're in the guaranteed Ding Dong percent range, to give yourself damage and get out of that guarantee

 

[divade]

anybody know the frame advantage on shielded dair (last hit) I thought we were safe from everything but grab with our low frame jab and dtilt.

 

[Shaya]

the landing hit box should be -8 on block. So you can get grabbed before you can do anything, but you're pretty okay against a cross over.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GcccIxzB2tBhTxDDlJPNHd72MVQ95wG5RfnHroDgMc8/edit#gid=0
search "bowser jr"

 

[divade]

the landing hit box should be -8 on block. So you can get grabbed before you can do anything, but you're pretty okay against a cross over.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GcccIxzB2tBhTxDDlJPNHd72MVQ95wG5RfnHroDgMc8/edit#gid=0
search "bowser jr"

Hmm, I don't understand the +1 on auto cancel for fox.is there a guide for that, instead of bugging you on how2read.

 

[Shaya]

Sorry I didn't respond sooner.
At the top of the spreadsheet on the right there are some comment/descriptions.

You mean +2 on the back air?
There may not be a specific guide for that, but if you don't know how auto canceling works in smash, I would think even smashwiki would explain it.

 

[divade]

Sorry I didn't respond sooner.
At the top of the spreadsheet on the right there are some comment/descriptions.

You mean +2 on the back air?
There may not be a specific guide for that, but if you don't know how auto canceling works in smash, I would think even smashwiki would explain it.

I figured the autocancel was the frames until you could act after landing, meaning getting a +anything would mean acting before you even touched the ground. I think it is still assuming you got a hit on the Opp shield. I didn't recognize hitboxes could be out during auto-cancel frames.

 

[Shaya]

It is all assuming you hit an opponent's shield, and there's shield stun to consider.

You may be confusing regular landings (landing lag) and auto canceled landings (which is like landing normally).

 

[divade]

It is all assuming you hit an opponent's shield, and there's shield stun to consider.

You may be confusing regular landings (landing lag) and auto canceled landings (which is like landing normally).

I gotcha, I was confused in that the numbers were still a comparison to opponent's sheild stun.

 

[Metalex]

Found this today while experimenting a bit with landing hit Fair. Landing hit Fair > Footstool > Side B is inescapable at all percents on the characters it works on so it can be a KO confirm if you do it at the percents where you can do Side B > Up B > Hammer!

It's very character specific though as doesn't work on a taller characters since Bowser JR will just end up doing a Side B in the air if he isn't close enough to the ground after the footstool. Might be useful in some matchups if you master it though!

 

[divade]

Found this today while experimenting a bit with landing hit Fair. Landing hit Fair > Footstool > Side B is inescapable at all percents on the characters it works on so it can be a KO confirm if you do it at the percents where you can do Side B > Up B > Hammer!

It's very character specific though as doesn't work on a taller characters since Bowser JR will just end up doing a Side B in the air if he isn't close enough to the ground after the footstool. Might be useful in some matchups if you master it though!

Oh, that's interesting. The fact that it's not percent based make it more viable though, compared to the down side of specific characters.

 

[Pixel_]

Just found out that after Neutral B you can easily snap to the ledge; is this common knowledge? You can spam Ledge drop > DJ > B-reversed Neutral B for edgeguarding, but idk what else it could be used for

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Just found out that after Neutral B you can easily snap to the ledge; is this common knowledge? You can spam Ledge drop > DJ > B-reversed Neutral B for edgeguarding, but idk what else it could be used for

I dunno if it's common knowledge, but I've been doing it for ages. You gotta be careful with it though, because it makes you lose ledge invincibility.

 

[Weruop]

accidentalpost

 

[jacob harrington]

At first I was worried he would just run around with the paint brush, Which I don't see being very cool. But the Klown Car is awesome and makes for a unique moveset, and I will definitely play some Lemmy and Ludwig.

Oh my god, me too

 

[jacob harrington]

That cannonball is neutral B right?

Yes

 

[jacob harrington]

So after reading this thread it seems he has a little more depth than I thought he did but he's still not that great.
Still have to work harder than other characters, no real good way to score kills.

His great recovery and amazing freefall hammer don't make up for all his cons.

Mecha-Koopa is highly situational and can be used against you if you throw it out wrong.
Canonball is easy to dodge.

I love the Koopalings. ):

Well, I like them too because they aren't that badhat bad

 

[jacob harrington]

Is there any game play differences between Bowser Jr. and the alternate skins?

Hit boxes changed?

Hurt boxes changed because of the different sizes?

'OK, first of all, they all have the same move, second, the boxes will hit them a little, and third, they hurt boxes because of their sizes. For example, Lemmy is definitely the shortest height, compared to all of them Morton can hurt the most boxes, but Roy hurts more boxes, and Iggy, well, he can hurt boxes a little.

 

[divade]

'OK, first of all, they all have the same move, second, the boxes will hit them a little, and third, they hurt boxes because of their sizes. For example, Lemmy is definitely the shortest height, compared to all of them Morton can hurt the most boxes, but Roy hurts more boxes, and Iggy, well, he can hurt boxes a little.

This post doesn't make much sense. "the boxes will hit them a little" what?
To Answer the question, The koopalings do not have Different hurt-boxes, or different attacks. think of them as a color change, nothing more.