Jigglypuff Matchup #3: Yoshi

[GeneralWoodman]

no it doesn't they can throw eggs and hit u on the edge from long distances, no pro yoshi falls for ledge tactics

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

yes the eggs are annoying from the edge, but besides that you can aireal hop them and WoP them off. its called invincibility frames.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

no i meant that jiggz cant ledge camp yoshi not vise versa

 

[Veril]

and one by one they succumbed to madness.

 

[illinialex24]

no it doesn't they can throw eggs and hit u on the edge from long distances, no pro yoshi falls for ledge tactics

Are you f***ing serious? Thats why you ledge stall under the stage, ie, where you can't get egged. Honestly.... Yoshi's fairly easy to ledgestall if you are careful, but really careful. His dair can be pretty nasty.

 

[MrEh]

watch the smashes and pivot grabs dont ledge stall too much or you'll get egged up

That's why I love Norfair. No eggs, and it makes approaching difficult for anyone not named Jiggs or Wario.

His dair can be pretty nasty.

Veril, any way to Rest out of the occasional Dair?

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Veril, any way to Rest out of the occasional Dair?

i was thinking the same thing. That dair is brutal.

 

[Mmac]

But you guys still haven't answered two things

1. What is so great with the 3rd part of Castle Siege that Jigglypuff completely destroys Yoshi on?

2. Nobody has answered my question that What does Jigglypuff have that is a reliable option to a Heavy Usmash and Pivot Grab Defence?

Also, Camping under the stage doesn't work all the time on some stages, If it's Thin enough, the splash damage from the eggs can still hit you.

 

[illinialex24]

But you guys still haven't answered two things

1. What is so great with the 3rd part of Castle Siege that Jigglypuff completely destroys Yoshi on?

2. Nobody has answered my question that What does Jigglypuff have that is a reliable option to a Heavy Usmash and Pivot Grab Defence?

Also, Camping under the stage doesn't work all the time on some stages, If it's Thin enough, the splash damage from the eggs can still hit you.

I know, thats why you don't plank on most stages. First of all, his U-smash doesn't work if he flies into a rising pound. He can't grab you as well if you do a rising pound. He can, however, egg you. The trick in this matchup is to bair pressure his shield with a fair number of rising pounds.

And the third part of castle siege is like a dream come true for Jigglypuff. Smaller so its hard to projectile spam, but it also tilts so it screws with many others recovery.

 

[Mmac]

Rising Pound is not as reliable as you say it is, due to two flaws. You won't hit him either, and Pivots recovers faster than pound, therefore leaving her open to a heavy counterattack.

Yoshi will NEVER shield in ANY matchup ever as a primary defence. Players might shield on some occasions, but almost never in a position where he will be pressured. His Defence is usually Spotdodging, Usmash, Pivots, and some Egg's and Tilts thrown in. NEVER Shields.

Also Yoshi is not really a character that is effected by tilting, Especially on a ledge that isn't a ceiling.

Edit: About the Release Uair again, do you know how little time you have with 19 Frames? That is bit more than 3/5's of a second! I don't think it's super easy to pull off, but the frame data you have collected just seems... off. I do not feel it's as limited as whats presented from the times I have tried it.

 

[Veril]

Veril, any way to Rest out of the occasional Dair?

So glad you asked
Yes. Yes. Y - E - S. Rest > d-air.

That move does approximately a bazillion damage for each of its gazillion hits.

I don't think you can directly interrupt it since the hits come so fast and because of the hitbox shape.

The friggin thing stretches a good deal under his feet. They don't even have to touch you.

BUT there's good news: the hitbox only covers the bottom half of his body and the gazillion hits make it very easy to SDI to the area the hit box doesn't cover.

So yes, you can interrupt (SDI dependent) with rest consistently if he is falling or rising. If he just is skimming you overhead its a lot harder. I think this is viable at any %.

I was able to do this at full speed the first time I tested it controlling both characters at once. That's how easy it can be.

2. Nobody has answered my question that What does Jigglypuff have that is a reliable option to a Heavy Usmash and Pivot Grab Defence?

That's a good question...

 

[illinialex24]

Rising Pound is not as reliable as you say it is, due to two flaws. You won't hit him either, and Pivots recovers faster than pound, therefore leaving her open to a heavy counterattack.

Yoshi will NEVER shield in ANY matchup ever as a primary defence. Players might shield on some occasions, but almost never in a position where he will be pressured. His Defence is usually Spotdodging, Usmash, Pivots, and some Egg's and Tilts thrown in. NEVER Shields.

Also Yoshi is not really a character that is effected by tilting, Especially on a ledge that isn't a ceiling.

Not open to heavy counter attack. Not at all....... And yeah, you won't shield pressure him but you will either bait him or hit him, mainly because she can DI very well.......

 

[PND]

Yoshis generally don't shield because it takes them longer then any other character to drop their shield. Their usually very spot dodge happy so they don't have to use it. To Yoshis credit on his shield, he can't be shield poked because of it, so you can't bair him out of his shield. If Yoshi dodges, nair or pound. The long lasting hitbox will get him after his dodge ends.

Onve he's in the air, try and keep to his front if you can. If he's popped in the air, bair the hell out of him. He'll probably just jump away to prevent you from bair chaining him (unless he's at a high enough %) so you're likely only to get a couple. Thankfully they do 10% a pop.

And yes, rising pound hits and is unpunishable if spaced correctly and not powershielded. If you dodge, you're getting him. If you try to beat it, you're getting it. If you try to pivot grab, the most likely scenario, you will miss. Your best bet is to retreat and try again.

 

[MrEh]

Edit: About the Release Uair again, do you know how little time you have with 19 Frames? That is bit more than 3/5's of a second! I don't think it's super easy to pull off, but the frame data you have collected just seems... off. I do not feel it's as limited as whats presented from the times I have tried it.

Brawl moves at 60 frames a second, not 30. Meaning you have slightly less then 1/3 of a second to pull this off.

I do think the data is near correct, but if the data is off, it's probably only off by 1 or 2 frames. The things we know for sure are the grab release frames, so we can confirm with near 100% accuracy that there's 19 frames where Yoshi can move. Yoshi's grab does not differ from everyone else's except for Bowser's, who has 29 frames.

We also know for sure that the Uair comes out in 5 frames, so that means that Yoshi has to be in the proper position to land the Uair in 14 frames.

However, jumping takes time to come out. The problem with that, is that I don't think anyone has tested Yoshi's jump frames. Testing that information is kind of pointless, so I guess that's why no one ever tested it. Sheik has a fast jump of 5 frames, and Bowser has a slow jump of 9 frames. I just gave Yoshi a frame 7 jump, since I know for sure he doesn't jump as slow as Bowser, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't jump as fast as Shiek either.

The amount of delay that Yoshi has to utilize before his Uair is near impossible for me to test, since I don't really have accurate reccording equipment. So I took a rough estimate.

 

[Mmac]

And yes, rising pound hits and is unpunishable if spaced correctly and not powershielded. If you dodge, you're getting him. If you try to beat it, you're getting it. If you try to pivot grab, the most likely scenario, you will miss. Your best bet is to retreat and try again.

Wait... let me get this straight...

Spot Dodge = Yoshi will get hit as soon as the dodge frames end
Pivot Grab = Both will miss.

How does that work?

Plus I have said over and over and over again that Jigglypuff will STILL get punished if the pivot grab misses because the friggen thing recovers faster than her Pound!


And Brawls is in 60FPS? Now I REALLY think the data is off! There is NO way Yoshi has only a 1/3 of a second to act. I can hit her before she recovers from the stun, Yoshi has alot more frame time to react.

 

[Glick]

Trust me pound is phucking broken. Your best bet is to try and power sheild to up smash.

 

[illinialex24]

Wait... let me get this straight...

Spot Dodge = Yoshi will get hit as soon as the dodge frames end
Pivot Grab = Both will miss.

How does that work?

Plus I have said over and over and over again that Jigglypuff will STILL get punished if the pivot grab misses because the friggen thing recovers faster than her Pound!


And Brawls is in 60FPS? Now I REALLY think the data is off! There is NO way Yoshi has only a 1/3 of a second to act. I can hit her before she recovers from the stun, Yoshi has alot more frame time to react.

Yeah, there is. You must not play great Jigglypuffs.....

 

[Glick]

Playing jigglypuff is all about having control. If you let jigglypuff have control your going to lose. If you take control the low tier comes out of her. Thats why she is not really fit for high level play. Once you get stuck in a mindgame your dead. And there nothing you can do about it.

 

[MrEh]

So glad you asked
Yes. Yes. Y - E - S. Rest > d-air.

Good stuff man.

There is NO way Yoshi has only a 1/3 of a second to act. I can hit her before she recovers from the stun, Yoshi has alot more frame time to react.

Please trust me on this. I'm absolutely sure that Yoshi only has 1/3 of a second.

The only character in the game that has half a second (30 frames) to react to a jump release is Bowser. As everyone knows, I main the guy. I know that's how much time he has.

Here's a way to test it easily. Go into training mode and set the speed to 1/2, which will slow the game down to 30 frames a second. Then grab someone with Yoshi. Once they break out of Yoshi's grab, you'll notice that he suffers from a whole second of immobility. 1 second equals 30 frames. So yeah, Yoshi does have 30 frames of immobility.

So that means that he really only has 19 frames to hit Jiggs.

 

[Mmac]

Yeah, there is. You must not play great Jigglypuffs.....

..... That didn't answer anything I said in that quote, except for 60FPS....

And Meh, whatever. Point is though is that Yoshi can still hit Jigglypuff from release with effort.

 

[illinialex24]

..... That didn't answer anything I said in that quote, except for 60FPS....

And Meh, whatever. Point is though is that Yoshi can still hit Jigglypuff from release with effort.

Yeah he can. But its hard to time correctly.

 

[bigman40]

As much as I'm hearing about the pound not being punishable, someone give me a link to a video showing someone using this in such manner.

 

[illinialex24]

Rising Pound is not as reliable as you say it is, due to two flaws. You won't hit him either, and Pivots recovers faster than pound, therefore leaving her open to a heavy counterattack.

Yoshi will NEVER shield in ANY matchup ever as a primary defence. Players might shield on some occasions, but almost never in a position where he will be pressured. His Defence is usually Spotdodging, Usmash, Pivots, and some Egg's and Tilts thrown in. NEVER Shields.

Also Yoshi is not really a character that is effected by tilting, Especially on a ledge that isn't a ceiling.

Edit: About the Release Uair again, do you know how little time you have with 19 Frames? That is bit more than 3/5's of a second! I don't think it's super easy to pull off, but the frame data you have collected just seems... off. I do not feel it's as limited as whats presented from the times I have tried it.

But you only have a 3 frame window.......

 

[GeneralWoodman]

idk Mmac seemed extremely hard to approach when i played him, i suck against yoshis, but i dont suck in general and im pretty sure he tryed to pivot grab a pound, thus dodging the damage and then repeating this until i was open for an up smash or faired following the pound which then got pivot grabbed, it didn't seem possible to hit him with pound at the time, but meh i suck against yoshi so idk

the pivot grab and heavy upsmash defense, yeah that sums it up. i cant beat that, and if i do, he can just run away and do it again, causing him to deal more damage than i can. when i got frustrating of this campy strategy i ran to the ledge and got egged up. fading fairs dont work because...pivot grab then throw egg and repeat. this is a major problem for jiggz and its wut ive had problems with. also.....japes doesn't work because yoshi can camp in the middle platform and do this. any answers to this?

 

[Mmac]

Actually, I believe your Jigglypuff did quite well on Japes against me. I was probably more annoyed by the ledge and underplatform camping on the side docks, because it was hard to get a good angle to get a shot on you to countercamp without you being invincible or using the Dock itself as cover. I also got destroyed when I came after you on the side docks. I would actually thought you would have won that match if you didn't SD'ed in the river.

I think the best counterpick stages are thoses which leaves Yoshi little room to setup a defence.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

ive been practicing like crazy on japes tho, memorizing clap traps ect.. im beast on it now

 

[MrEh]

I think the best counterpick stages are thoses which leaves Yoshi little room to setup a defence.

Or stages that make the defense moot.

Japes has been mentioned, and Rainbow Cruise also comes to mind. Once again, Norfair is my favorite. Multiple angles of approach means it's hard to defend yourself on that stage, unless you're a really grounded character like Bowser.

ive been practicing like crazy on japes tho, memorizing clap traps ect.. im beast on it now

You mean Klaptraps.

Yeah, I'm such a nerd that I know that. ><

 

[Ryusuta]

Rainbow Cruise is NOT an effective counterpick against Yoshi. His aerial speed absolutely dominates hers.

Hi, folks. My name is 0rion. You might remember me from such Yoshi threads as "Yoshi: Why am I so green?" and "Yoshi's happy walking shoes."

First of all, don't overestimate Yoshi's desire to space Jigglypuff. We don't need to. Jigglypuff doesn't have any reliable options inside or outside on Yoshi. Spacing her only changes things from very easy to LUDICROUSLY easy on our part.

Jigglypuff is in a bad position against Yoshi... pretty much everywhere. Jungle Japes actually DOES make a slightly reasonable CP for her because of the high ceiling, but even then, that knife cuts both ways.

Jigglypuff's only option against Yoshi - really - is to desperately try to space aerials in such a way that she won't get pivot grabbed. She doesn't have reliable kill options, she has absolutely no chance whatsoever keeping him off-stage, and she's susceptible to ALL of Yoshi's kill moves.

All the way around, this is a terrible match for the 'Puff.

 

[illinialex24]

Rainbow Cruise is NOT an effective counterpick against Yoshi. His aerial speed absolutely dominates hers.

Hi, folks. My name is 0rion. You might remember me from such Yoshi threads as "Yoshi: Why am I so green?" and "Yoshi's happy walking shoes."

First of all, don't overestimate Yoshi's desire to space Jigglypuff. We don't need to. Jigglypuff doesn't have any reliable options inside or outside on Yoshi. Spacing her only changes things from very easy to LUDICROUSLY easy on our part.

Jigglypuff is in a bad position against Yoshi... pretty much everywhere. Jungle Japes actually DOES make a slightly reasonable CP for her because of the high ceiling, but even then, that knife cuts both ways.

Jigglypuff's only option against Yoshi - really - is to desperately try to space aerials in such a way that she won't get pivot grabbed. She doesn't have reliable kill options, she has absolutely no chance whatsoever keeping him off-stage, and she's susceptible to ALL of Yoshi's kill moves.

All the way around, this is a terrible match for the 'Puff.

Sorry but we don't respect your opinion. Maybe its because you gave no reasons, or maybe its just because you came in and strutted a high horse. Please leave, thank you very much.

And one thing you should know. Jigglypuff's aerial speed is the second best, so compared to the best, its a difference but not huge. Your making it sound like its Yoshi to Ganondorf.

 

[Ryusuta]

Sorry but we don't respect your opinion. Maybe its because you gave no reasons, or maybe its just because you came in and strutted a high horse. Please leave, thank you very much.

First of all, no.

Second of all, if you want reasoning, present a counter-argument. Right now, most of what I said was pretty obviously true. I wasn't aware that I needed to present reasoning for thinking the sky is blue.

Third, you represent yourself, so don't act like a board spokesperson.

Fourth, you only think I'm "on my high horse" because I was overly critical of your character. You wouldn't think twice about it if I were backing her up in this match.

Fifth, not thinking about something won't make it go away.

 

[illinialex24]

First of all, no.

Second of all, if you want reasoning, present a counter-argument. Right now, most of what I said was pretty obviously true. I wasn't aware that I needed to present reasoning for thinking the sky is blue.

Third, you represent yourself, so don't act like a board spokesperson.

Fourth, you only think I'm "on my high horse" because I was overly critical of your character. You wouldn't think twice about it if I were backing her up in this match.

Fifth, not thinking about something won't make it go away.

Considering every Yoshi main who has been in these boards has said it is between 40-60 and 45-55, I would say:

You are incorrect sir.

 

[Ryusuta]

Oh, an image macro. I can tell that I'm REALLY debating someone that I can take entirely seriously.

...Or a 4channer. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's the latter.

Newsflash: I'm not representing the Yoshi boards. I'm representing ME. Even more to the point, the Yoshi boards almost ALWAYS have players that disagree with the consensus on virtually every match-up, so my input here isn't unprecedented.

So, here's an idea. Instead of getting all uppity and whiny because I didn't come in here mincing words with my educated take on this match-up, let's actually get to the heart of the matter. How is Jiggly going to KO Yoshi? How is she going to keep him from KOing her? In what situation is she EVER in a better position to do damage to him than he is to her?

Make some serious points or stop wasting mine and everyone else's time with immature responses.

 

[illinialex24]

So, here's an idea. Instead of getting all uppity and whiny because I didn't come in here mincing words with my uneducated take on this match-up, let's actually get to the heart of the matter. How is Jiggly going to KO Yoshi? How is she going to keep him from KOing her? In what situation is she EVER in a better position to do damage to him than he is to her?

Fixed.

Honestly, you act like you have no idea on this matchup. Although Yoshi's always disagree with the consensus, its always in the favor of their character. See where I'm going......

And sorry if you think I am a 4channer, I am pretty much the leader of these boards (notice who does all the stickies) and am considered one of the most intelligent posters on these boards. But my tolerance has a limit, and when we have some other crazy people and you come in, you sir, are the limit. Cheerio.

 

[Ryusuta]

Oh, ha ha ha! I get it! You changed one word of my post to make it seem like I'm saying something else! That's so ORIGINAL! Man, you got me so good with that one.

I'll wait until someone that actually has something relevant to say posts on this topic again so we can have a legitimate discussion about this.

 

[illinialex24]

Oh, ha ha ha! I get it! You changed one word of my post to make it seem like I'm saying something else! That's so ORIGINAL! Man, you got me so good with that one.

I'll wait until someone that actually has something relevant to say posts on this topic again so we can have a legitimate discussion about this.

Dude, you come in here with no facts, absolutely no proof, and ridiculous opinions and want intelligent discussion. Get off these boards.

 

[Thinkaman]

I've played more Jigglypuff/Yoshi than perhaps any other matchup in Brawl.

It's 60:40.

Stop trolling our board.

 

[Ryusuta]

Exactly what kind of "facts" are you looking for, here? Oh, that's right.

You're looking for the "facts" that make Jigglypuff look better in a match-up than she actually is.

You're looking for the "facts" that don't take into account the fact that she has no reliable approach against Yoshi.

You're looking for the "facts" that show her aerials can always be spaced in such a way that she can't be hit back.

You're looking for the "facts" that give her a reliable killing option against Yoshi.

You're looking for the "facts" that keep her safe from his down B, his up air, his neutral air, and his up smash.

Sorry, you're right. I don't have those kinds of "facts."

So now that we have that out of the way... are you actually going to debate anything I said, or are you just going to stick with ad hominem garbage until someone more qualified to discuss this comes along?

Edit:

I've played more Jigglypuff/Yoshi than perhaps any other matchup in Brawl.

It's 60:40.

Stop trolling our board.

Oh, for Pete's sake. You guys really are too much.

GIVE ME SOMETHING TO GO OFF OF, HERE. I'M NOT TROLLING JUST BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE WITH ME.

 

[illinialex24]

Exactly what kind of "facts" are you looking for, here? Oh, that's right.

You're looking for the "facts" that make Jigglypuff look better in a match-up than she actually is.

You're looking for the "facts" that don't take into account the fact that she has no reliable approach against Yoshi.

You're looking for the "facts" that show her aerials can always be spaced in such a way that she can't be hit back.

You're looking for the "facts" that give her a reliable killing option against Yoshi.

You're looking for the "facts" that keep her safe from his down B, his up air, his neutral air, and his up smash.

Sorry, you're right. I don't have those kinds of "facts."

So now that we have that out of the way... are you actually going to debate anything I said, or are you just going to stick with ad hominem garbage until someone more qualified to discuss this comes along?

Dude, you obviously have no idea who Thinkaman is. He's the Mango of Brawl, got it? Now seriously, I'm bringing out my hippo:

And I am glad to see you Thinkaman

 

[Ryusuta]

Dude, why do you even bother quoting me if you're not actually going to address what I've said?

Or... well, much of anything.

 

[illinialex24]

Dude, why do you even bother quoting me if you're not actually going to address what I've said?

Or... well, much of anything.

We like people who come here and give reasons. You have given none. Leave our boards. And honestly, there is nothing to quote, I just do it to show I am addressing you. Seriously, leave, and I wonder why you are even a Smash Debater.

GIVE ME SOMETHING TO GO OFF OF, HERE. I'M NOT TROLLING JUST BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE WITH ME.

No, you are trolling because you are posting absolutely nothing and expecting huge results and getting pissed at us when we tell you to leave. Seriously. The only thing you are doing is increasing the post count in the Jigglypuff boards.

Edit: Reported. Honestly, I warned you.