Jigglypuff Matchup #3: Yoshi

[illinialex24]

Oh, the Bowser discussion... how I long for those days.
As for this:

peace b****es

"flees"

Nicely said.

I wish all discussions are as awesome and civil as that one was.

Yeah I know, our discussions were so civil. Be ashamed Yoshi mains.

Okay, I tested it. Time for some math again! (you guys know how much I love grab releases) It turns out it works, but it's not bad at all. Here's why...

Yoshi has 30 frames of immobility after a grab, and Jiggs has 49 after being released. So...

49 frames of immobility - 30 frames of immobility = 19 frames of immobility

Yoshi's jump startup speed is pretty average, and I'm pretty sure that Yoshi's jump takes 7 frames to leave the ground. So if we factor that in...

19 frames of immobility - 7 jump startup frames = 12 frames of immobility

Yoshi cannot use his Uair on the first possible frame, since it won't reach Jiggs. Bowser could throw out his Uair at the first possibe frame, and the trajectory of his jump and the huge hitbox of his Uair would still hit Jiggs. However, Yoshi's Uair does not that the same range or the same amounts of startup time that Bowser's has, so he cannot throw out the Uair at the first possible frame. It simply wouldn't reach Jiggs. He has the delay the Uair slightly, use that time to rise up with his jump, and then throw out his attack. I think that it requires about 4 delayed frames minimum in order reach Jigg's hitbox with the Uair. So...

12 frames of immobility - 4 frames of jumping = 8 frames

Yoshi's Uair comes out in only 5 frames, which is pretty darn quick. So when we do the math...

8 frames of immobility - 5 frames of Uair startup = 3 frames where Jiggs can be hit

Many thanks to firemario149 and Ref for the frame data

From all this ******** math, it looks like Yoshi has an even smaller window of opportunity to use his Uair then Bowser, give or take a frame or so. However, unlike Bowser, Yoshi cannot buffer his Uair out of his jump, since his Uair has to be delayed in order to hit Jiggs. This means that human error is very easily factored into play, since most players do not have frame perfect timing. Most likely, the Yoshi player will not have practiced this technique at all, and they most likely will not have the timing down. Even if they did practice it, the Uair is still more difficult to land on Jiggs then Bowser's Uair is, due to the whole buffering thing and that Bowser has the 10+ frame advantage over Yoshi. Seriously, 3 frames is such a small window of opportunity.

To put it simply, Jiggs shouldn't be scared of this. Remember all the talk we did in the Bowser discussion about avoiding the Uair? Use it here. Going back to what illinialex said a while back, if you airdodge and jump as fast as possible, it'll be very difficult for the Uair to hit you. (Funny how talking about Bowser helps in the Yoshi discussion. XD)

So really. Unlike Bowser, it's not that scary. Have fun guys.

Looks like it really won't work. With human error that shouldn't work. There's no way you can perfectly do this to a 20th of a second every time, and with it being 95%, peace.

 

[PND]

MrEh, I nominate you for JBR. Or some sort of non-Jiggs guru or something. That is beautiful. <3 you.

 

[illinialex24]

MrEh, I nominate you for JBR. Or some sort of non-Jiggs guru or something. That is beautiful. <3 you.

I would if he would start using Jigglypuff. I'm gonna make a Jigglypuff hang out room for random chat.

 

[PND]

Honestly, if he played Jiggs he'd get my nomination vote in a heartbeat.

 

[MrEh]

Looks like it really won't work. With human error that shouldn't work. There's no way you can perfectly do this to a 20th of a second every time, and with it being 95%, peace.

Exactly. I even had a hard time doing it on a computer, and you know how stupid they are. When I tried it on a human opponent today, I only pulled it off once. So yeah, this is not something that will work when they want it to.

MrEh, I nominate you for JBR. Or some sort of non-Jiggs guru or something. That is beautiful. <3 you.

I would if he would start using Jigglypuff. I'm gonna make a Jigglypuff hang out room for random chat.

Honestly, if he played Jiggs he'd get my nomination vote in a heartbeat.

All this discussion we've been having made me realize how much I love Jiggs. I think I might actually pick of Jiggs as a secondary, since I have none. (Bowser is too sexy to give up as my main though. ) I've used her occasionally as a counterpick to mean things like Dedede, since they **** Bowser so hard.

 

[illinialex24]

Exactly. I even had a hard time doing it on a computer, and you know how stupid they are. When I tried it on a human opponent today, I only pulled it off once. So yeah, this is not something that will work when they want it to.

All this discussion we've been having made me realize how much I love Jiggs. I think I might actually pick of Jiggs as a secondary, since I have none. (Bowser is too sexy to give up as my main though. ) I've used her occasionally as a counterpick to mean things like Dedede, since they **** Bowser so hard.

Yeah, that sounds really hard. And I invited you to the Jigglypuff Break Room at the very least, although I can't wait to see you second Jigglypuff

 

[MrEh]

Yeah, that sounds really hard. And I invited you to the Jigglypuff Break Room at the very least

although I can't wait to see you second Jigglypuff

Using Jiggs with a Bowser mentality is going to be hilarious. I R SUPER DEFENSIVE LOL!

Vids will be up as soon as I feel confident about using her.

 

[illinialex24]

Using Jiggs with a Bowser mentality is going to be hilarious. I R SUPER DEFENSIVE LOL!

Vids will be up as soon as I feel confident about using her.

Nice, I can't wait to see.

 

[Veril]

Using Jiggs with a Bowser mentality is going to be hilarious. I R SUPER DEFENSIVE LOL!

Vids will be up as soon as I feel confident about using her.

If MrEh actually picks up Jiggs as a second we should definitely invite him to join the JBR.

 

[Metatitan]

Anyways matchup 45:55 yoshi is what I see it as. Playing as jigglypuff I have never had extreme difficulty against my fellow yoshi mains but I could tell they had the slight advantage. As for advice all I can say is dacus as an approach now and again, watch out for our spikes and have a nice day ;o

 

[illinialex24]

Yeah but we still need to discuss strategy and counterpick stages. Especially counterpick stages.

 

[MrEh]

Maybe Frigate? Dunno, the lack of a ledge might screw with Yoshi a bit.


Oh, and Norfair. Seriously, that stage screws with everyone. Jiggs has the aerial maneuverability needed to fly everywhere on that stage to find an attack opening. It's not usually a stage I'd recommend for Jiggs, but Norfair is hilarious and pivot grabs aren't as scary there. Plus, Jiggs is immune to Yoshi's projectile wall due to the platform placement.

Really, I think every single one of my problems can be solved with Norfair. I love that stage for good reason. Everyone hates it.

 

[Metatitan]

I know ur going to hate this alex but i find lylat cruise to be my best against yoshi (and believe my i have a LOT of experience against fellow yoshies) lol. Regardless its one of yoshi's best stages so mabey its something to test.

 

[illinialex24]

I know ur going to hate this alex but i find lylat cruise to be my best against yoshi (and believe my i have a LOT of experience against fellow yoshies) lol. Regardless its one of yoshi's best stages so mabey its something to test.

No its not. If I want to get hit by 100 eggs and 100 U-smashes, then I'll go there.

 

[MrEh]

I know ur going to hate this alex but i find lylat cruise to be my best against yoshi (and believe my i have a LOT of experience against fellow yoshies) lol. Regardless its one of yoshi's best stages so mabey its something to test.

Most Jigglypuff players know to stay the crap away from platforms.

USMASH LOLOLOL!


That's kind of why I love Norfair. No projectiles and multiple angles of approach for Jiggs.

 

[Metatitan]

I tend to use the platforms to my advantage. On platform stages like lylat i dacus to get them above me and uair juggle them. Yoshi's benefinits on this stage are primarily from groundpound retreat on the slants so watch out for that.

 

[illinialex24]

I tend to use the platforms to my advantage. On platform stages like lylat i dacus to get them above me and uair juggle them. Yoshi's benefinits on this stage are primarily from groundpound retreat on the slants so watch out for that.

How many times do I have to tell you. The platforms help characters who can ground platform pressure and air platform pressure much more than 1 of the two. Yes she has insane maneuverability but when you try to go above, they will air-dodge, fall below, and you are trapped.... I'm gonna make a diagram.

 

[Metatitan]

But you are making it seem like lylat cruise is one of her worst stages when its one of my best when i play jiggs. Lylat cruise aside a good counterpick stage for yoshi would be norfair (assuming its not banned where u play). Without even one straight away we can't bair approach, pivot grab efficiently and are forced to approach with egg lay, uair, fair, rising dair etc.

 

[MrEh]

I'm gonna make a diagram.

Better yet, ask PNDMike to make one. XD

But you are making it seem like lylat cruise is one of her worst stages when its one of my best when i play jiggs. Lylat cruise aside a good counterpick stage for yoshi would be norfair (assuming its not banned where u play). Without even one straight away we can't bair approach, pivot grab efficiently and are forced to approach with egg lay, uair, fair, rising dair etc.

That's why I mentioned Norfair earlier.


Jiggs hates Battlefield and Lylat for the same reason. Platforms let people camp underneath, and hinders a lot of her approaches. Yoshi's free to chuck eggs while hiding under a platform, and he can Usmash as much as he pleases.

 

[Metatitan]

btw alex go to the BKT chat there are 2 things i wanna talk about

 

[illinialex24]

This is why we don't play a Yoshi there:

 

[bigman40]

Online Exp =/= Offline Exp. Their are a huge amount of differences that happen offline. Granted I stay out of discussions when I have weak Exp in these matchups, I find it that the Grab Release -> Uair won't be used alot (will be attempted though). For someone like me who uses DR/DT, a 3 frame window sounds reasonable to get it a few times (not all the time, don't jump on me).

I have not found pound to be the most fearful thing against a grounded Yoshi. In the air, however, it's a big nusiance to go against since the hitbox is ludiciously big. If we stay grounded, It's pivot grabable and shieldgrabable. Really, DACUS has to be used at correct times or we're going to be punishing you. Since you guys have no projectile, we can camp you guys to approach us, and the fact that Yoshi out range Jiggs by a little makes things even more harder.

For counterpicking, stages that have platforms are pushing things further away from your favor. I actually think that Delfino, and maybe, MAYBE Rainbow Cruise would help you guys. Your mobility on RC and since we have no stable bottom platform to be on, would force us to go aerial, and it makes our camp game harder to place.

Edit: LOL @ pic. I'm dying, laughing here xD

 

[illinialex24]

Online Exp =/= Offline Exp. Their are a huge amount of differences that happen offline. Granted I stay out of discussions when I have weak Exp in these matchups, I find it that the Grab Release -> Uair won't be used alot (will be attempted though). For someone like me who uses DR/DT, a 3 frame window sounds reasonable to get it a few times (not all the time, don't jump on me).

I have not found pound to be the most fearful thing against a grounded Yoshi. In the air, however, it's a big nusiance to go against since the hitbox is ludiciously big. If we stay grounded, It's pivot grabable and shieldgrabable. Really, DACUS has to be used at correct times or we're going to be punishing you. Since you guys have no projectile, we can camp you guys to approach us, and the fact that Yoshi out range Jiggs by a little makes things even more harder.

For counterpicking, stages that have platforms are pushing things further away from your favor. I actually think that Delfino, and maybe, MAYBE Rainbow Cruise. Your mobility on RC and since we have no stable bottom platform to be on, would force us to go aerial, and it makes our camp game harder to place.

Yeah, the one issue with RC is there are a few points where a uair kills insanely early or a U-smash is a death sentence... And a 3 frame window is very very small. That means you have to time everything within a 20th of a second or else someone who is holding two buttons will get away.

I think Norfair and Japes would be fairly good.

 

[bigman40]

IIRC, if people are using the new stage list Umbreon suggested, alot of stages, like those, got banned.

And you missed what I said about that. For ME, it's a reasonable window. Timing is the main thing, and I learned the timing in about 2 mins when I did try it. It's not something that we'll hit everytime, but I still see it possible to get.

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

Just taking a shot here, but would Luigi's Mansion be a good counterpick? High roof and small sides are good. God knows Yoshi relies on those Uairs and Usmashes. The walls also prevent egg spam and give Jiggs a place to refresh stale moves on. I guess Yoshi could take advantage of the center platform and rollout becomes useless, but who ever uses rollout anyway unless it's to punish techs? Probably not the best stage to choose, but would it be a feasible option?

 

[illinialex24]

Just taking a shot here, but would Luigi's Mansion be a good counterpick? High roof and small sides are good. God knows Yoshi relies on those Uairs and Usmashes. The walls also prevent egg spam and give Jiggs a place to refresh stale moves on. I guess Yoshi could take advantage of the center platform and rollout becomes useless, but who ever uses rollout anyway unless it's to punish techs? Probably not the best stage to choose, but would it be a feasible option?

Actually that could be a fairly good option. I haven't tried it. And what is Umbreon's new stage list? Japes had better be on there, and so had better be Frigate.

Edit: Saw the list, that thing is never becoming official. Japes is off there are you kidding me? So is like every other stage.

 

[bigman40]

nvm about what I said. It seems to me that Umbreon's list wasn't implemented, and I'm not going to search this place to find it either.

 

[Metatitan]

As for luigi's mansion u guys can jab lock we can utilt lock u. So its a neutral pick IMO

 

[MrEh]

Edit: Saw the list, that thing is never becoming official. Japes is off there are you kidding me? So is like every other stage.

Norfair is gone too. Oh Lord! Predictable stage hazards are so scary!!!

Really, all that list does is remove every stage that has hazards in it, as small as they are. Seriously, Yoshi's Island is a counterpick. I guess Shy Guys are more fearsome they we thought.

 

[Metatitan]

Personally i hate norfair cuz its so awkward to fight on but it shouldnt be banned...

 

[MikuMiku~]

But I love Norfair! ;-; You would have to be blind to not be able to avoid it's minor hazards!

 

[Glick]

Most Jigglypuff players know to stay the crap away from platforms.

What the hell is wrong with you people?

 

[MrEh]

What the hell is wrong with you people?

Everything.

Personally i hate norfair cuz its so awkward to fight on

That's why I love it.

Norfair is essentially made of platforms. Because of the triangular formation of the platforms, there's no safe place for Yoshi to camp with his eggs. Even if Yoshi is on the bottom platform, there's still safe spots for Jiggs to be in, and she can even approach if she wishes.

Plus, because all the platforms are all spread out, Usmash shenanigans usually don't work as well as they do on Battlefield and Lylat. Let me explain with a chart, since everyone seems to be making those nowadays.

Note that camping the bottom platform is they probably the best case scenario for Yoshi, and there's no way Yoshi will be able to hold that position for the entire match. Even if Yoshi is determined to hold the bottom platform, the lava rising will force him into the air sooner or later, and Jiggs ***** in air.

 

[Mmac]

Wait, wait, Hold up a second......

Yoshi has nowhere near 30 Frames of immobility on a release! Where the hell did this came from?

I am positive Yoshi has much more time on a release. Whenever I try it, I come close (a few frames late) or connect.


And what is with all this "Yoshi will spam Fsmash" Stuff now?

Edit: Actually, one of the frame values are wrong, either Yoshi recovers quicker than what is presented, or Jigglypuff recovers slower. I do not believe this is a 19 frame window at all. Though the release is heavily based on aiming and timing.

 

[MrEh]

Where the hell did this came from?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209846

Almost everyone has 30 frames of immobility when releasing people from grabs. When a character is released from a grab, they suffer 50 frames of immobility. Minus Jiggs, who suffers from 49 for some reason.

Yoshi has nowhere near 30 Frames of immobility on a release! I am positive Yoshi has much more time on a release.

Are you sure you're not confusing Yoshi with someone else?

I do not believe this is a 19 frame window at all. Though the release is heavily based on aiming and timing.

I'm pretty sure that it's a 19 frame window, give or take a few frames. Then again, I'm wrong like all the time.

 

[illinialex24]

Thank god his list isn't being implemented. So these are my thoughts for CP's:

Jungle Japes
Norfair

Both screw with Yoshi.

However, if planking is allowed, Castle Seige, because the last part is too good for Jigglypuff. She can stall out 2 minutes each time to get to the final part.

As for stages to ban, I am not sure right now. What stages would a Yoshi counterpick in this matchup? I'm guessing Castle Seige if there is no planking.

 

[Veril]

"Peeks in"

Umbreon' list is stupid boring garbage. Lame lame lame sauce.

The Jiggs board knows the true value of silly diagrams.


Planking is just... ick... I don't know how TOs let people get away with it.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

*peeks in as well*
I have seriusly never brawled a good yoshi. I have not seriously brawled a yoshi more than about five times. Im going to challange a yoshi user soon to see how they play. All I know is:
-pound breaks eggs
-moderate challange to gimp off stage
-rest can counter egg roll (lol chinese food xD)
-rest stops flutter jump
-hard to stage spike

Things to know:
-can rest counter d-air?
-rest KO %

 

[GeneralWoodman]

watch the smashes and pivot grabs dont ledge stall too much or you'll get egged up

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

watch the smashes and pivot grabs dont ledge stall too much or you'll get egged up

edge camping works good against yoshi, just dont be too campy.