Jigglypuff Matchup #2: Bowser

[illinialex24]

Please discuss Jigglypuff's potential, strategy and stage counterpicks here.

 

[DanGR]

On paper, it seems like Jiggs would have a solid advantage. (I haven't played a great Bowser) Poking with bairs above Bowser's ftilt range seems like it'd work fairly well. When you connect, bair->upair can start pretty easy juggling. He doesn't have great aerial mobility, DI, or any combo breakers such as Luigi's nair to help against combos.

Just watch out for quick fairs and space extra well so you don't get grabbed.

 

[Maniclysane]

Not to hard. I don't think many of Bowsers grab tactics work that well on Jigglypuff. He's big, so landing rest is easy, and drill resting isn't really needed. He can KO you kinda early. I'd say it's 50:50ish.

 

[illinialex24]

One thing I do have to add. Don't get grabbed. He can kill you past 60% guaranteed with a jump grab release to uair (from what I've heard from Bowser mains).

 

[Maniclysane]

Does the grab releases affect Jiggz? I thought she floated too far away.

 

[Boozer]

Does the grab releases affect Jiggz? I thought she floated too far away.

jump release

Grab release upair
Grab release fair
Grab release bair
Grab release upb

ground release

Grab release regrab
Grab release overb
Grab release ftilt
Grab release jab

 

[illinialex24]

jump release

Grab release upair
Grab release fair
Grab release bair
Grab release upb

ground release

Grab release regrab
Grab release overb
Grab release ftilt
Grab release jab

I don't think she can be regrabbed from release.

Edit: I tested this and none of these work. Maybe the jab or F-tilt but no regrabs for sure and no air releases work.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Bowser like other heavy characters are eaiser to chain. Of course he can use a quick aireal to escape it, but his aireal lag makes it harder for him than other characters to escape. His B-up on the ground is annoying.
I hate how they took out the whirling fortress noise from melee....
WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

 

[Boozer]

I don't think she can be regrabbed from release.

Edit: I tested this and none of these work. Maybe the jab or F-tilt but no regrabs for sure and no air releases work.

it's from vex's thread, so you should probably talk with him if you think they're wrong.

although i can get all of them to work, except for the regrab, which is a running grab, not a standing grab (which doesn't really work anyway).

 

[Maniclysane]

it's from vex's thread, so you should probably talk with him if you think they're wrong.

although i can get all of them to work, except for the regrab, which is a running grab, not a standing grab (which doesn't really work anyway).

Did you have someone else using Jiggz? If not then she probably could of DI'd away from it.

 

[PND]

Grabbing a Jiggs is like grabbing a Wario, though. It the Jiggs/Wario is doing it right, you shouldn't be getting a grab.

Nah, the real threat in this matchup is Bowser's UpB.

But Bowser is great OoS. I love hitting sheilds with Pound, after two it's broken and you're eating a rollout to the face. We can eliminate his OoS game and juggle him, but if we get hit we're gonna feel it. His fire can stop rollout, even if there's "no fire left" so don't get Rollout happy (really, you shouldn't anyway)

And his fair can be quick enough to stop our bairs, so you want to take 'em from behind (that's what she said. . . ?)

 

[Boozer]

yeah, it was xgina iirc

 

[Veril]

I believe all his aerials except f-air will be counterable with perfect rest, as will his f-smash, dash attack, dash grab, possibly up-b and down-b, possibly down tilt and forward tilt at close range, possibly up-smash. Testing is required to confirm.

His jab, tilts (except forward), smashes, and all aerials but up and forward are counterable with perfect shield to rest.

His Jab may be SDI-able into rest (or out of into drill rest), along with the down smash, down and neutral aerials, and up-b. Forward smash is a long shot but OMG would that be great...

Neutral-b definitely can be countered with SDI to rest.

That's my input. He's like a friggin rest magnet. Currently though, missing a rest is certain death.

 

[MrEh]

Currently though, missing a rest is certain death.

Bowser's Fsmash equals 50% and dead Jiggs.


Bowser is like the polar opposite of Jiggs in movement. Jiggs spends all her time in air, while Bowser spends most of his time grounded, unless he's using his infinite jump shenanigans.


From what I've tested, Bowser's grab releases do work on Jiggs. You need to watch out for his Klaw and chaingrab out of a ground release, and aerials out of a jump release. I can confirm that this works if you have good timing.

You need to watch out for this, because these grab release tricks can really screw Jiggs up. Let's say that Bowser grabs Jiggs, bashes her with his head a couple of times, and then uses a grab release Klaw. This will do like 25%, and that's a lot of damage for a single grab.

And yeah, we could say that Bowser will have difficulty grabbing Jiggs. But imagining a match where you don't get grabbed at all is just silly. Bowser will land a grab at least once, and he might be able to do all sorts of crap out of it. Watch out.

 

[Maniclysane]

Bowser's Fsmash equals 50% and dead Jiggs.


Bowser is like the polar opposite of Jiggs in movement. Jiggs spends all her time in air, while Bowser spends most of his time grounded, unless he's using his infinite jump shenanigans.


From what I've tested, Bowser's grab releases do work on Jiggs. You need to watch out for his Klaw and chaingrab out of a ground release, and aerials out of a jump release. I can confirm that this works if you have good timing.

You need to watch out for this, because these grab release tricks can really screw Jiggs up. Let's say that Bowser grabs Jiggs, bashes her with his head a couple of times, and then uses a grab release Klaw. This will do like 25%, and that's a lot of damage for a single grab.

And yeah, we could say that Bowser will have difficulty grabbing Jiggs. But imagining a match where you don't get grabbed at all is just silly. Bowser will land a grab at least once, and he might be able to do all sorts of crap out of it. Watch out.

This matchup is kinda confusing me. It seems like it's all about who makes the fewest mistakes. I still think Jiggz has the advantage, but it sounds more even than I thought. You still have to keep in mind that you aren't going to grab Jiggz much at all, since she's rarely on the ground. Plus, off stage Jiggz has the clear advantage.

We need more Bowser input. :|

 

[Glick]

Bowser is easily gimped.

Thats really all I have to say.

 

[MrEh]

Poking with bairs above Bowser's ftilt range seems like it'd work fairly well.

The Ftilt can be angled upwards.

Bowser is easily gimped.

Yup, Bowser's gimptastic.

This matchup is kinda confusing me. It seems like it's all about who makes the fewest mistakes.

Pretty much. If Bowser spaces or mistimes his attacks badly, then Jiggs can punish him by getting him into the air and utterly destroying him. If Jiggs spaces her attacks badly, or underestimates Bowser's range and priority, she's going to have a very tough time getting though Bowser. Bowser is a defensive wall, and you'd be surprised at all the crap he can pull out to stop Jigg's approaches.

Waiting for the opposing character to make mistakes is something that both Bowser and Jiggs can capitalize on. A missed Bowser Bomb or a badly aimed Fire Breath means a free Rest for Jiggs. While a missed Rest from Jiggs means a fully charged Fsmash from Bowser. Jiggs needs to be very careful in this matchup, as does Bowser.

You still have to keep in mind that you aren't going to grab Jiggz much at all, since she's rarely on the ground.

No arguments here. Bowser's grab range is pretty bad. However, the grab is still a powerful tool that can be used against Jiggs. You must be very careful to space your attacks properly against Bowser. If you space badly, Bowser might be able to get the grab on you, and when that happens, Bowser can do all sorts of crap to Jiggs. If you get a ground release, he can chaingrab or Klaw you to rack up damage very fast. If you get a jump release, then he can hit you with an Fair or Uair if his timing is perfect. Remember that the Uair will kill Jiggs at 60%, so you really need to watch out for that.

Plus, off stage Jiggz has the clear advantage.

No arguments here either. Thank god Bowser is the heaviest character in the game. He's pretty **** hard to get off the stage.


In order to fully grasp this matchup, we need to get a firm understanding on how Bowser works, and how ******** he can be at times. Like Jiggs, Bowser is an underestimated character, but you should never think that the match is a cakewalk. Bowser is full of tricks he can use, and he's definately not going down without a fight.

An obvious thing that you may have noticed is that Bowser is a giant turtle. Both literally and figuratively. Bowser has a very powerful defensive game, and you'd be surprised at how much crap he can stop with his moves.

First of all, Bowser's shield is enormous. He can takes lots of hits and not even worry about getting shield stabbed. This supplements his defensive game by helping him use his OoS options at every opportunity. Bowser's Fortress is a prime example of Bowser's powerful; defensive game. Any attack that's not spaced well will probably be met with an OoS Portress. Besides coming out near instantly, the Fortress does decent amounts of damage, has high knockback, and has buttloads of priority. The Fotress will kill Jiggs at like 90% fresh, so you need to be careful about getting overly offensive. If you do manage to space your aerials properly, then Bowser might decide to use his Ftilt or Jabs OoS instead. An upwards angled Ftilt comes out pretty fast, and Bowser can use it to protect himself from some of Jigg's aerials, no shield needed. The Jab comes out even quicker, and it has very deceptive range and priority. With his excellent OoS options, it's extremely difficult to pressure Bowser by chipping at his shield because of these things.

Bowser can also use his tilts and aerials to stop approaches. The upward angled Ftilt has been mentioned, but Bowser's aerials can also be used as a surprise attack as well. A short hopped Fair comes out quick, and has decent range and priority to boot. It can go through a lot of things, so you need to watch out for it. Another thing you need to worry about is Bowser's Fire Breath. Fire can create a very annoying wall, especially if you don't see it coming while you're using an aerial. If you get stuck in the fire, try to DI towards Bowser so you can land a free Rest on him. If the Bowser player is familiar with the matchup, he'll stop shooting fire when you get close to him, so start moving towards him as fast as possible.

Another thing worth mentioning...Bowser's Utilt. It's so manly that it needs an entire paragraph dedicated to it. The Utilt is one of Bowser's best killing moves, and for good reason. It's fast, has deceptive range and priority, and it's strong. Hell, I think it'll kill Jiggs at 80% fresh. The hitbox for the Utilt hits above and behind Bowser, so you need to be wary about attacking him from the rear. To put things simply, a reverse Utilt will go through all of Jigg's aerials. It even beats all of Meta Knight's aerials, that's how awesome it is. Bowser can pull out a random Utilt and kill you out of nowhere, since the hitbox is so **** huge for some reason. Watch out for this. I cannot stress that enough, especially if you're playing on a stage with platforms.

Resting Bowser is both easier and harder then it seems. Some of Bowser's attacks have just enough ending lag for you to pull off a Rest, and combined with his large size, he's essentially a walking target, so there'll be lot's of opportunities. However, don't expect to be able to pull off a Rest with relative ease. As you guys know, Rest comes out in like 1 frame, so you'd figure you'd be able to Drill Rest Bowser into oblivion right? Well, that's not really the case. Remember Bowser's Fortress? It has invincibility frames at startup, from frames 1-5. Bowser can abuse those frames to make the Fortress go through all sorts of crap, including a Drill Rest. Combined with the Fortress's naturally high amounts of priority, it's not that easy to Drill Rest Bowser.

I can't think of anything else, but if anyone wants to talk more about this, I'll try to answer as well as I can. I hope this was helpful.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

The Ftilt can be angled upwards.



Yup, Bowser's gimptastic.



Pretty much. If Bowser spaces or mistimes his attacks badly, then Jiggs can punish him by getting him into the air and utterly destroying him. If Jiggs spaces her attacks badly, or underestimates Bowser's range and priority, she's going to have a very tough time getting though Bowser. Bowser is a defensive wall, and you'd be surprised at all the crap he can pull out to stop Jigg's approaches.

Waiting for the opposing character to make mistakes is something that both Bowser and Jiggs can capitalize on. A missed Bowser Bomb or a badly aimed Fire Breath means a free Rest for Jiggs. While a missed Rest from Jiggs means a fully charged Fsmash from Bowser. Jiggs needs to be very careful in this matchup, as does Bowser.



No arguments here. Bowser's grab range is pretty bad. However, the grab is still a powerful tool that can be used against Jiggs. You must be very careful to space your attacks properly against Bowser. If you space badly, Bowser might be able to get the grab on you, and when that happens, Bowser can do all sorts of crap to Jiggs. If you get a ground release, he can chaingrab or Klaw you to rack up damage very fast. If you get a jump release, then he can hit you with an Fair or Uair if his timing is perfect. Remember that the Uair will kill Jiggs at 60%, so you really need to watch out for that.



No arguments here either. Thank god Bowser is the heaviest character in the game. He's pretty **** hard to get off the stage.


In order to fully grasp this matchup, we need to get a firm understanding on how Bowser works, and how ******** he can be at times. Like Jiggs, Bowser is an underestimated character, but you should never think that the match is a cakewalk. Bowser is full of tricks he can use, and he's definately not going down without a fight.

An obvious thing that you may have noticed is that Bowser is a giant turtle. Both literally and figuratively. Bowser has a very powerful defensive game, and you'd be surprised at how much crap he can stop with his moves.

First of all, Bowser's shield is enormous. He can takes lots of hits and not even worry about getting shield stabbed. This supplements his defensive game by helping him use his OoS options at every opportunity. Bowser's Fortress is a prime example of Bowser's powerful; defensive game. Any attack that's not spaced well will probably be met with an OoS Portress. Besides coming out near instantly, the Fortress does decent amounts of damage, has high knockback, and has buttloads of priority. The Fotress will kill Jiggs at like 90% fresh, so you need to be careful about getting overly offensive. If you do manage to space your aerials properly, then Bowser might decide to use his Ftilt or Jabs OoS instead. An upwards angled Ftilt comes out pretty fast, and Bowser can use it to protect himself from some of Jigg's aerials, no shield needed. The Jab comes out even quicker, and it has very deceptive range and priority. With his excellent OoS options, it's extremely difficult to pressure Bowser by chipping at his shield because of these things.

Bowser can also use his tilts and aerials to stop approaches. The upward angled Ftilt has been mentioned, but Bowser's aerials can also be used as a surprise attack as well. A short hopped Fair comes out quick, and has decent range and priority to boot. It can go through a lot of things, so you need to watch out for it. Another thing you need to worry about is Bowser's Fire Breath. Fire can create a very annoying wall, especially if you don't see it coming while you're using an aerial. If you get stuck in the fire, try to DI towards Bowser so you can land a free Rest on him. If the Bowser player is familiar with the matchup, he'll stop shooting fire when you get close to him, so start moving towards him as fast as possible.

Another thing worth mentioning...Bowser's Utilt. It's so manly that it needs an entire paragraph dedicated to it. The Utilt is one of Bowser's best killing moves, and for good reason. It's fast, has deceptive range and priority, and it's strong. Hell, I think it'll kill Jiggs at 80% fresh. The hitbox for the Utilt hits above and behind Bowser, so you need to be wary about attacking him from the rear. To put things simply, a reverse Utilt will go through all of Jigg's aerials. It even beats all of Meta Knight's aerials, that's how awesome it is. Bowser can pull out a random Utilt and kill you out of nowhere, since the hitbox is so **** huge for some reason. Watch out for this. I cannot stress that enough, especially if you're playing on a stage with platforms.

Resting Bowser is both easier and harder then it seems. Some of Bowser's attacks have just enough ending lag for you to pull off a Rest, and combined with his large size, he's essentially a walking target, so there'll be lot's of opportunities. However, don't expect to be able to pull off a Rest with relative ease. As you guys know, Rest comes out in like 1 frame, so you'd figure you'd be able to Drill Rest Bowser into oblivion right? Well, that's not really the case. Remember Bowser's Fortress? It has invincibility frames at startup, from frames 1-5. Bowser can abuse those frames to make the Fortress go through all sorts of crap, including a Drill Rest. Combined with the Fortress's naturally high amounts of priority, it's not that easy to Drill Rest Bowser.

I can't think of anything else, but if anyone wants to talk more about this, I'll try to answer as well as I can. I hope this was helpful.

............. o_0

um.... lol yes. good boozers CAN hold their own against a jigglypuff, but jiggltpuff has more advantages against him. you mentioned bowzer's whirling fortress and d-air rest? in the air that is not effective, and it may not work therough the d-air's weak hit stun. if i does, look in veirl's thread about rest counters, and you may find that the invincibility frame on rest can go through it. If this all does work, you can't expect to do this some times. You may forget.

bowser can beat jiggz, but only if it is a good bowser, a standard jiggs, and the bowser uses hit and run the whole time. Mabey geting a little stale too.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

lol @ calling bowser easily gimpable -____-
sorry mofos but jiggs doesn't have the advantage. Hard to win against somebody you can't even KO amirite???

 

[PND]

Jiggs doesn't have problems KO'ing. . .

Anyway, I hate this match because it's so ***. It's such a defensive match. Good thing Pound does percentile shield damage, and I'll keep saying this. Especially with Bowser's massive size and shield, hit one Pound, he'll be at 50% shield and you can shield poke him.

You HAVE to, HAVE to, HAVE to watch out for his tilts, though. The smashes shouldn't ever be a problem (unless you miss a rest), it's his tilts that are the issue. And his UpB.

Pretty much everything MrEh said. Don't get grabbed, play defensive, and try and pound that shield. Don't underestimate the range of her dash and pivot grabs, it's pretty much long enough to be a tether. Save your fair for killing.

 

[TheStig]

bowser is one of the few characters that you can nair to rest. at high percents he can trip from nair

 

[Veril]

Bowser beatings (Completed): rest counters almost entire moveset

............. o_0

um.... lol yes. good boozers CAN hold their own against a jigglypuff, but jiggltpuff has more advantages against him. you mentioned bowzer's whirling fortress and d-air rest? in the air that is not effective, and it may not work therough the d-air's weak hit stun. if i does, look in veirl's thread about rest counters, and you may find that the invincibility frame on rest can go through it.

A good Bowser is scary. I love playing good bowsers, as Lucas or Jiggs. Makes for very exciting matches.

Well I'm midway through Bowser testing... Not as bad for Bowser as I though... except for that F-smash.

Bowsers Jab and downtilt are too fast for any rest counter technique to work, including perfect shielding.

His up-tilt/smash can be airdodged into if you predict them. Up-Smash can be perfect shielded > drill rest.

Down-Smash can be DI'd out of up to absurd % (at least 80%). Neutral B can be DI'd into for rest. Dash grab can be perfect rested.

F-Smash... wow. More to it than I thought. First, its very easy to perfect rest. Except for the very ends of the hitbox, ie far spacing, any spacing allows for this. Possibly the easiest move in the game to perfect rest. Perfect shielding also always can lead into a rest.

Now... for DI stuff.

Its got two hitboxes. The first starts out above Jiggs, so at the start of the smash you can literally run under or Jump into bowser with no consequences. This does 10% uncharged. If you are very close to Bowser and are hit by this you can DI back and out of the smash, though the knockback prevents SDI > Rest. This hitbox has much less knockback then the second.

Ah, the Omegadeath hitbox... when bowser lunges forward this one comes out. It does like 23% uncharged or something ridiculous like that. It is very possible to get hit by this hitbox and not the first if the Bowser isn't close to you. It is also possible to SDI out of the way of this hit, although the % range for this has not been determined. Never SDI in the direction of the 1st hit, it ensures you will be hit by the second one.

Fully-charged f-smash does like 46% damage if both hit. Its not an instant KO but it might as well be. The stun is too great to do SDI to rest in between hits like you can with Luigi and wolf BUT, you should be able to either: 1. only take the second hit (bad option/bowser isn't close) or 2. SDI out after the first hit and take like 14% damage.

If I find that this is doable up to moderate %... reduced punish ability.

Bowser Punish Methods vs. Missed rest:
1. F-smash: see above. Double stick SDI diagnolly and back.
2. D-smash: SDI out (% range not known)
3. U-Smash: With DI and rest braking you can survive into the 90s vs a fully charged U-smash.


Bad News: Side-B has no real defensive counter. Can't be perfect rested, shield is useless, spotdodge is useless, airdodge is practically useless. If the bowser misses with this it means they probably suck.

[EDIT]

Bowser's Down air is crap. Just don't use it... ever. Perfect shield works on the ground, perfect rest works... anywhere, SDI up to fast fall drill rest works in the air, SDI to the side to perfect shield to rest works, shield to roll rest works on the ground. SDI definitely works up to 60%. Probably much higher. You should never ever use D-air against Jiggs.

Yeah. Literally everything works on this... except spotdodge... but... why would Jiggs need that?

Bowser's Up-air is you die. This is established. Perfect rest works on rising up-airs. Falling up-air should be airdodged or avoided. If it hits Jiggs is over.

F-air is really good. There is no way to combo a retreating f-air into rest and it appears to be a very safe choice for Bowser... also established.

B-air can be perfect rested, perfect shielded, or airdodged (sometimes). Not nearly the threat that Up-air or F-air are,

Whirling fortress can be perfect rested before the first hit connects or... anytime after the invincibility frames wear off... Subsequent hits can be SDI'd out of into drill rest. If you end up behind a shielding bowser, they like to up-b out of shield. keep those finger on b or R/L... Perfect shield does not combo into rest but is a possible defense. The priority of an attack doesn't mean sh** in regards to rest. Rest has infinite priority.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209708


Oh: grab-release stuff: gr (jump) > up air and F-air work, ground release to jab works, f-tilt works, side-b may work.

 

[Crazy Cloud]

I wish I could contribute, but I have not played any good Bowsers. I haven't seen a competitve Bowser at all in CT.

 

[Hixxy]

Ah, the Omegadeath hitbox... when bowser lunges forward this one comes out. It does like 23% uncharged or something ridiculous like that. It is very possible to get hit by this hitbox and not the first if the Bowser isn't close to you.

The second hit of Bowser's Fsmash has a sour spot at his horns which deals 19% instead of 23%. The knock back is weaker (it kills considerably later than the 23% hit) and much more vertical.

Bowser's Utilt is very good in this match up. It kills Jigglypuff even with excellent DI ~100% and goes through all of Jigglypuff's aerials. Jigglypuff's only real answers to Bowser's Ftilt are going over Bowser, approaching with shield, and air dodging through the Ftilt. If you're approaching by shield, you are on the ground and vulnerable to Bowser's grab game which can either deal ~15%+ with an aerial grab release > Fair (which is guaranteed; aerial grab releases can't really be DId out of), ~19% with a Side B, or ground release chain grabs which can lead to anywhere from ~12% to ~60%.

If you're going over Bowser, depending on how high you are, Bowser can simply dash away and reset the situation or be able to hit you with his anti air game with his Utilt, Usmash, Uair, or Up B. If you air dodge through the Ftilt, Up B can catch you if you're too close and he can move away during the Up B to reset his position.

Jigglypuff's best bet is to catch a whiffed tilt with an aerial and then stay on him. It is important to keep the momentum against Bowser, especially off of the ledge. Bowser can turtle inside of his shield without any problems, and even though someone mentioned that Pound will heavily damage his shield, Bowser can power shield just as well as Jigglypuff. Unlike Jigglypuff, Bowser is supposed to stay on the ground, which makes it more viable; power shielding isn't Jigglypuff's answer to Bowser

Realistically, Bowser should be surviving to ~150% and Jigglypuff to ~90% without gimps. Jigglypuff's main goal should be getting Bowser off the stage, as that is Jigglypuff's most reasonable manner for damage as well as gimping as the best way for Jigglypuff's kills. I would say that the match up is 55-45 in Bowser's favor.

 

[PND]

One thing: We don't have to approach with shield on the ground. We can dash grab. Considering our dash grab can grab Marth out of fair, I think we can get you through your Ftilt based on theory, not experience ATM. And Pound goes through all of your tilts.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

lol @ calling bowser easily gimpable -____-
sorry mofos but jiggs doesn't have the advantage. Hard to win against somebody you can't even KO amirite???

Obviously you don't know anything about Jigglypuff if you think she can't KO Bowser. Or anyone. Her KO potential is HUGE.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

I don't think she can be regrabbed from release.

Edit: I tested this and none of these work. Maybe the jab or F-tilt but no regrabs for sure and no air releases work.

doing it wrong, bowser grab break has really awkward timing, you gotta practice it a bit to get it right

EDIT: cause i have some experience in this really odd matchup.

bowser has the edge, 6-4 at least

jiggs can ko bowser, but she cannot gimp him, upb beats out gimp attempts by jiggs. jiggs can ko with rest around 70ish if the player is gutsy, as a missed rest is a bowser fsmash (it'll do like 40% and ko early if both hits connect) other than that, it's rollouts and fsmash.

jiggs is guaranteed death after about 100% because a fresh upb/sideb oos will kill. the bowser should be saving one of those. utilt kos earlier than that, and grab release uair is death at 57 (maybe 58, i tested it like 2 months back, not 100% on the 57)

bowser should be sticking to the ground in this match, trying to get a grab or fire breath for some damage. jiggs should be trying to poke his shield and avoid getting hit. unfortunately jiggs has to approach, and if she hits bowsers shield wrong, it's 15-20% from and upb/sideb (the one he isn't saving)

DOUBLE EDIT:

Whirling fortress can be perfect rested before the first hit connects or... anytime after the invincibility frames wear off... Subsequent hits can be SDI'd out of into drill rest. If you end up behind a shielding bowser, they like to up-b out of shield. keep those finger on b or R/L... Perfect shield does not combo into rest but is a possible defense. The priority of an attack doesn't mean sh** in regards to rest. Rest has infinite priority.

whirling fortress invincibility ends on frame 5, the hitbox starts on frame 6, meaning there is no frame where rest won't at least tie with the upb. you can technically time the 1 frame option for it to tie, but it's next to impossible

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Jiggs doesn't have problems KO'ing. . .

We're talking about Bowser not G&W

j/k

Bowser is hard to KO for almost everyone (even for Bowser himself ...). He can survive a Marth fsmash @center of FD with 160%. Good DI ftw.

Unless you count Rollout / Sing as reliable finisher you will have troubles KOing him.

bowser is one of the few characters that you can nair to rest. at high percents he can trip from nair

Approaching Bowser with aerials isn't a good idea. You should perhaps bait an attack, airdodge it and grab him.

I can't think of a situation where nair is a good choice. Pound, fair and dair are always better.

Obviously you don't know anything about Jigglypuff if you think she can't KO Bowser. Or anyone. Her KO potential is HUGE.

I know more about Jiggs than u kno about Bowser.
Her KO potential isn't huge. That's an exxageration, a HUGE one (C WHAT I DID?)

 

[Glick]

I've played good bowsers, like, vex for example. On wifi no less, and jigglypuff should have more of a disadvantage there. I'm decently sure that I won more then he did. Either that or it went even. I'm pretty sure he is seen as a good bowser.


ALSO: I play bowser. I probably should have added that. I play him on doubles a lot. He's great fun and I know how his moves work. Pound really is the answer to this matchup. As it is for a lot of others too.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Overusing pound isn't good though vs Bowser.

Btw you shouldn't use it from max range as strange as it sounds. It's basically a free fsmash if you are to far away, thanks to the fsmash animation

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Unless you count Rollout / Sing as reliable finisher you will have troubles KOing him.
I know more about Jiggs than u kno about Bowser.
Her KO potential isn't huge. That's an exxageration, a HUGE one (C WHAT I DID?)

I assume by sing you mean rest.
You probably do know know more about Bowser than me. But IMO, he isn't too hard to gimp. Sure, you won't be killing bowser onstage, but offstage he should die. Fortress is much better for recovery than most people get, but it's gimpable if you avoid it's startup, when he's invincible. Good spacing lets you fair through fortress in the air, and offstage fair kills even heavy characters if sweetspotted in the 80's at worst.

This matchup is 50/50, and shiould really depend on who plays smarter.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The thing isn't that Bowser isn't just "hard" to gimp but almost impossible

 

[Tarmogoyf]

The thing isn't that Bowser isn't just "hard" to gimp but almost impossible

I've never had a problem, but then I've never actually played a really good one. Just regular good ones.

 

[DanGR]

And yeah, we could say that Bowser will have difficulty grabbing Jiggs. But imagining a match where you don't get grabbed at all is just silly. Bowser will land a grab at least once, and he might be able to do all sorts of crap out of it. Watch out.

I've gone many matches without getting grabbed. It's very realistic, though improbable.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

fotress stops pound and eliminates lag for bowser allowing them to side b or grab. bowser is hell annoying

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

fotress stops pound and eliminates lag for bowser allowing them to side b or grab. bowser is hell annoying

stops pound? you mean after pounds hitbox goes away right? pound goes through fortress. It is one of bowsers best moves, and it is hard to gimp. Good bowsers use it to slide on the other side of opponents to grab them or somthing else. Still, a character like jigglypuff is usualy not grounded long enough to be effected by this. Yes it does get annoying though

Bowser players focus mainly on their throwing to space themself from you so they can follow up with a F-air, or a B-air to keep you off the stage. dont stay on the ground long enough to be grabbed, and if you do, float around the follow up. This matchup is about the same as gannon's. Jigglypuff exels at gimping heavy/large characters with the WoP. They are large targets, and have too much aireal lag to stop you from chaining them.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

perfect sheild and then fortress...it stops pound man

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

perfect sheild and then fortress...it stops pound man

Yes, if you b-up out of perfect sheild of course It works. my point was that if you use pound on whirling fortress, pound wins.

 

[Veril]

I'm pretty sure the worst thing Bowser can do to Jiggs is grab-release to up-air. That hurts.

Whatever. I play Lucas to, grab-releases aren't the end of the world.

 

[MrEh]

Whatever. I play Lucas to, grab-releases aren't the end of the world.

No, they aren't. They hurt Lucas pretty bad though. Bowser can still chaingrab Lucas info oblivion, and hit him with a Bowser Bomb. He cannot to that on Jiggs.

I've never had a problem

A good Bowser will usually recover very high, by Bowser Bombing the ledge. Or very low, where the invincibility frames will give him enough time to grab the ledge with the fortress.

I've gone many matches without getting grabbed. It's very realistic, though improbable.

Only Captain Falcon has reflexes that manly.


The stage you're playing on also seems like an important factor here. On Final Destination or Orpheon, Jiggs can use the open space to her advantage. The matchup will be easier for Jiggs in that situation.

On something like Battlefield or Norfair though, Bowser is an utter nightmare for Jiggs. Bowser loves platforms, and he can do all sorts of crap on that stage.

As you guys probably know, Corneria sucks. Bowser loves getting vertical KOs on that stage.