Jigglypuff Matchup #2: Bowser

[MrEh]

Good jigglypuff has the advantage vs a good bowser.

Idc what the numbers are.

How about excellent Jiggs vs excellent Bowser? Excellent Jiggs will not be grabbed, and excellent Bowser will not be gimped.

my guess is at least 65-35

I think that's a bit high. The matchup is more neutral to me, if only leaning in Jigg's favor slightly. 55-45 or 50-50 for me.


Oh and I checked the grab release stuff again. Still works for me. Vex will probably test it as well...

 

[Hixxy]

It's your match up thread, but you will be surprised if you actually play against a good Bowser in a tournament match.

 

[Maniclysane]

my guess is at least 65-35. Bowser is easily gimped.

Too high. I'd say even, if not in Bowsers favor. This thread has already made me play around with Bowser a bit, and with the grab release to uair, he's pretty devastating. Death at like, 50%? We have no room for flaws.

Definitely 50:50, because if Jiggz doesn't make any mistakes she wins for sure, but it's impossible to not make a mistake once or twice. If anything, I still think Jiggz has a small advantage.

 

[illinialex24]

How about excellent Jiggs vs excellent Bowser? Excellent Jiggs will not be grabbed, and excellent Bowser will not be gimped.



I think that's a bit high. The matchup is more neutral to me, if only leaning in Jigg's favor slightly. 55-45 or 50-50 for me.


Oh and I checked the grab release stuff again. Still works for me. Vex will probably test it as well...

Its definitely too high but good Bowsers can still be gimped. Its not that easy to gimp him though. I would say 55-45 to 60-40 (if the grab thing doesn't pan out, if not, I might be convinced 50-50 but he is a punching bag).

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Numbers don't lie. 60-40. that is the lowest i will accept.
.........................
55-45????

 

[GeneralWoodman]

lol CP japes and bowser goes bye bye
bowser is spiked by jiggz backwards throw, because he gets spiked off the left platform thus falling to far away to recover, its a zero percent ko

 

[PND]

Yeah, Japes is by and far the best counterpick against a Bowser. Woodman's point, couple with the insane range of her dash grab) The high ceilings, the water, the placement of the platforms, the short side killzones, everything about it is awesome.

 

[illinialex24]

Yeah, Japes is by and far the best counterpick against a Bowser. Woodman's point, couple with the insane range of her dash grab) The high ceilings, the water, the placement of the platforms, the short side killzones, everything about it is awesome.

Yeah it is but a CP of Battlefield can make you cry. I believe his down smash goes through the platforms and if so, it will make you cry.

 

[EWING]

From the bowsers I've played, MrEh's big description on page 2 i think is the most accurate

 

[MrEh]

We'd just ban Jungle Japes.

To increase your chances of victory, ban Battlefield. For the love of god ban that crap. Bowser ***** on that stage.

 

[illinialex24]

We'd just ban Jungle Japes.

To increase your chances of victory, ban Battlefield. For the love of god ban that crap. Bowser ***** on that stage.

Yeah I know. See we CP Frigate I believe.... that should be fun.

 

[MrEh]

Yeah I know. See we CP Frigate I believe.... that should be fun.

Frigate works well for Jiggs. Good call. Watch out for a Corneria Counterpick from Bowser though. That Uair grab release on Corneria is balls.


This is another reason why I love the Jigglypuff boards so much. When you guys discuss matchups, we're actually getting in depth with things. Most of the other boards usually just say "lol Bowser sucks, 70-30." The matchups are usually decided in like 5 posts.

 

[illinialex24]

Frigate works well for Jiggs. Good call.

Watch out for a Corneria Counterpick from Bowser though. That Uair grab release on Corneria is balls.

Yeah if it works that would be nasty. Like 40%. But a BF ban should help Jigglypuff because now the standard Neutral stages are:

Smashville, FD and Yoshi's Island, which 2/3 would definitely support Jigglypuff in my mind.

 

[illinialex24]

Oh yeah guys. Because of the really good debate here (sorry for the double post), I am going to let this run 1 more week, and it should deal mainly with Bowser's grab release possibilities and testing as well as counterpick stages.

 

[MrEh]

Yeah if it works that would be nasty. Like 40%.

If it does work, then that might be the most dangerous stage for Jiggs. Dying at 40% is total balls. Don't even get me started about that ******** fin, since you probably die even earlier on that thing.

But a BF ban should help Jigglypuff because now the standard Neutral stages are:

Smashville, FD and Yoshi's Island, which 2/3 would definitely support Jigglypuff in my mind.

Yeah, but can you ban a starter stage for the first match? I thought you could only do that for counterpicks.

Either way though, it does help Jiggs. With Battlefield out of the way, the only starter which I feel Bowser does decently well on against Jiggs is Yoshi's Island, which I do happen to like.

Oh yeah guys. Because of the really good debate here (sorry for the double post), I am going to let this run 1 more week

Good sh*t man. This discussion went on for like 7 pages, which is 6 pages more then most boards care to talk about.

and it should deal mainly with Bowser's grab release possibilities and testing as well as counterpick stages.

We really need more testing on the Uair grab release, since that can change the matchup a tad bit. I wonder what Vex is up to...

 

[Maniclysane]

Yeah, Bowser defiantly has the advantage. He kills us quickly at like, 50%. His moves build up damage kinda fast, it knocks us around far enough it's too risky to combo a bit, if he counterpicks corneria we're ****ed. I don't see many advantage Jigglypuff has. She can land rest probably without even drilling, she can kinda link maybe, two bairs? She can kill him the second he's offstage, I guess.

60:40. Bowsers favor. Fo sho.

 

[MrEh]

Yeah, Bowser defiantly has the advantage. He kills us quickly at like, 50%.

Bowser will never kill anyone that at percent. Without the Uair crap, Bowser will probably end up killing Jiggs with one of his tilts or an aerial. On a neutral stage, Aerials and most tilts will kill at around 100% with good DI. Fortress and Utilt will probably kill around 90% with good DI.


I don't even mention Bowser's smashes, since it's unlikely we'd be able to land one on Jiggs anyway. He's not DK. Minus Fsmash tricks, there's no reliable way to hit a smash on Jiggs. (Unlike Wario, where we can hit him with an Usmash or a sweetspotted Fsmash out of a grab.)

Don't worry too much about the Fsmash. Getting hit in the middle of FD at 50% with an uncharged sweetspoted Fmash won't kill you.

 

[illinialex24]

If it does work, then that might be the most dangerous stage for Jiggs. Dying at 40% is total balls. Don't even get me started about that ******** fin, since you probably die even earlier on that thing.

Yeah, but can you ban a starter stage for the first match? I thought you could only do that for counterpicks.

Either way though, it does help Jiggs. With Battlefield out of the way, the only starter which I feel Bowser does decently well on against Jiggs is Yoshi's Island, which I do happen to like.

Good sh*t man. This discussion went on for like 7 pages, which is 6 pages more then most boards care to talk about.

We really need more testing on the Uair grab release, since that can change the matchup a tad bit. I wonder what Vex is up to...

Yeah I really like this discussion. And I think you can ban starters.... but it has to stay the same. I'll check though.

Yeah, Bowser defiantly has the advantage. He kills us quickly at like, 50%. His moves build up damage kinda fast, it knocks us around far enough it's too risky to combo a bit, if he counterpicks corneria we're ****ed. I don't see many advantage Jigglypuff has. She can land rest probably without even drilling, she can kinda link maybe, two bairs? She can kill him the second he's offstage, I guess.

60:40. Bowsers favor. Fo sho.

Don't think so. I think Frigate is a very good backup CP. I think that if we can ban BF as a starter, Jigglypuff definitely has a stage advantage. And I think she still has a slight to moderate advantage, but on Corneria if the release works out, it will be slight imo.

 

[Maniclysane]

On Corneria we're screwed. So if we win the first match, we pretty much lose the second, unless we ban it. I think I'd rather be stuck on Battlefield with Bowser than Corneria. I guess the matchup could be 55:45, but I really think Bowser has the advantage here.

 

[illinialex24]

On Corneria we're screwed. So if we win the first match, we pretty much lose the second, unless we ban it. I think I'd rather be stuck on Battlefield with Bowser than Corneria. I guess the matchup could be 55:45, but I really think Bowser has the advantage here.

Nah, we definitely have the stage advantage if we can ban BF. I mean, Corneria is bad but if played well with rests, its not amazing (rest kills early here). And Frigate is very very good.

 

[MrEh]

Yeah I really like this discussion.

Best discussion I've had in a long time.

Don't think so. And I think she still has a slight to moderate advantage, but on Corneria if the release works out, it will be slight imo.

I still think it's 55-45. The grab release might buff it to 50-50, but it's all dependent on if the darn thing works or not.

I think Frigate is a very good backup CP. I think that if we can ban BF as a starter, Jigglypuff definitely has a stage advantage.

We should see what stages Bowser does well on, so you can try to avoid them and decide what to counterpick.


Corneria: The low ceiling is total balls for Jiggs. That supplements the fact that Bowser can get a lot of his kills from vertical KOs. Fotress, Utilt, and the dreaded Uair are all useable. If the Uair grab release works, then this might be Jigg's worst stage against Bowser. If it works, then BAN THIS STAGE AS FAST AS POSSIBLE! Dying at 40% isn't cool.

Battlefield: Mentioned a lot since Bowser does so well on this stage, and Jiggs doesn't really like it. This would be the stage to ban if the grab release on Corneria doesn't work out. The platforms allow Bowser to protect himself from above, and they allow him to fire of tilts and aerials very safely. Platforms also disrupt Jiggs aerial assaults, and allow Bowser to attack back effectively. A good choice to ban.

Norfair: One of Bowser's best stages. Jiggs may have some trouble on this stage because of all the platforms. Bowser is impossible to gimp on this stage with all of the ledges and that her limits killing options. All the platforms allow Bowser to defend himself from her aerial attacks easier, and that helps since his his ground game overpowers hers. Jiggs thankfully has a nice amount of maneuverability on this stage, but Bowser can simply camp his butt off, and it can become annoying. This is another stage that you may consider banning.

 

[PND]

Stage strike BF, ban Corneria.

'Tis what I'd do. Bowser's probably going to ban Frigate (not likely) or Japes and Rainbow Cruise (more likely) pick one of those on your counter pick. You should be fine.

But my scene doesn't support Corneria anyway, so I'd just outright ban BF (switch characters if he picks it)

EDIT: And although Bowser has the stages that he will dominate us on, I stick to my guns. Jiggs advantage.

 

[illinialex24]

Best discussion I've had in a long time.

I still think it's 55-45. The grab release might buff it to 50-50, but it's all dependent on if the darn thing works or not.

We should see what stages Bowser does well on, so you can try to avoid them and decide what to counterpick.

Corneria: The low ceiling is total balls for Jiggs. That supplements the fact that Bowser can get a lot of his kills from vertical KOs. Fotress, Utilt, and the dreaded Uair are all useable. If the Uair grab release works, then this might be Jigg's worst stage against Bowser. If it works, then BAN THIS STAGE AS FAST AS POSSIBLE! Dying at 40% isn't cool.

Battlefield: Mentioned a lot since Bowser does so well on this stage, and Jiggs doesn't really like it. This would be the stage to ban if the grab release on Corneria doesn't work out. The platforms allow Bowser to protect himself from above, and they allow him to fire of tilts and aerials very safely. Platforms also disrupt Jiggs aerial assaults, and allow Bowser to attack back effectively. A good choice to ban.

Norfair: One of Bowser's best stages. Jiggs may have some trouble on this stage because of all the platforms. Bowser is impossible to gimp on this stage with all of the ledges and that her limits killing options. All the platforms allow Bowser to defend himself from her aerial attacks easier, and that helps since his his ground game overpowers hers. Jiggs thankfully has a nice amount of maneuverability on this stage, but Bowser can simply camp his butt off, and it can become annoying. This is another stage that you may consider banning.

Yeah I am glad this is so close. Norfair is good and Jigglypuff will have issues on Norfair, but I think less so than BF or Corneria. And I think since being grabbed by Bowser is rare, you can have a choice if the release does work.

And PND, your league bans it? Nice.

 

[PND]

Nice? Kind of. I play Snake too, and I love that level with Snake.

 

[MrEh]

Stage strike BF, ban Corneria.

'Tis what I'd do. Bowser's probably going to ban Frigate (not likely) or Japes and Rainbow Cruise (more likely) pick one of those on your counter pick. You should be fine..

Yeah, Japes or Rainbow cruise would probably be the first to go for me. Lack of maneuverability on Cruise and the total retardedness of Japes makes me hate those stages.

Nice? Kind of. I play Snake too, and I love that level with Snake.

On Corneria? Utilt+Corneria=LOLOLOLOLOL!

Yeah I am glad this is so close. Norfair is good and Jigglypuff will have issues on Norfair, but I think less so than BF or Corneria.

If given the choice, Bowser will most likely fight you on those stages. Norfair is very annoying at times. (not as annoying as Battlefield or Corneria though)

And I think since being grabbed by Bowser is rare, you can have a choice if the release does work.

Not getting grabbed is always a good idea against Bowser. Still, not getting grabbed an entire match is hard against a competent player, and Corneria is balls because of it.

And PND, your league bans it? Nice.

My league bans everything that's not a starter. XD XD XD

We'll be using the SBR ruleset starting next month though, so yay.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

fortress is the only real problem for me, nothing else

 

[Maniclysane]

fortress is the only real problem for me, nothing else

Lol. Ur 2 pro. PLeez teech me teh adv tekz

Bowser is **** when played right. Don't act like you're amazing and can take down any opponent.

 

[Veril]

Lol. Ur 2 pro. PLeez teech me teh adv tekz

Bowser is **** when played right. Don't act like you're amazing and can take down any opponent.

I know it was dumb but... Not worth it. Ignore the dumb comments plz.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Wow, this thread is actually discussing the matchup still?

I've been messing around with Bowser (what I usually do when I want to know how my opponents character works.), and I'm pretty sure it's 50/50. Battlefield/Lylat cruise suck for you, but FD/SV are great. You both have amazing CPs (JJ, FO, RC/Norfair,corneria), and too many to ban them all. If you are using the stage striking system, ban corneria. If it's just random neutral, ban BF. Neither of you should win on an opponents CP, so the main focus should be to get a good neutral.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

I play bowser as my second, so I have some insight into the matchup. Although it would seem that all of our quickness ect would have him at a disadvantage (like in Melee) he hits hard and kills early. A missed rest results in death from fully charged Fsmash at, like 35%, a Koopa Klaw off the stage (which jiggs constantly is) is an instant SD kill, and one wrong move means jiggs is dead.

But on the other hand, Jiggs can hit him quick and often, and can possibly go from 0 to death without being touched (though not too likely).

Really, the matchup is 50/50 now. Trust me on this.

Edit:

A good level to counterpick for this matchup is Jungle Japes. Srsly.

It completely limits his mobility, eliminates his easy vertical KO's with its massive ceiling. We'll be killing him off the side anyway. Plus we can do all sorts of Rollout tricks with the edge. However Rest becomes much more worthless of this level.

(Credit to Bigfoot on AiB, who was talking about DK vs Bowser on this level and sparked my thought process on the matter)

Why would japes be a bad Bowser stage, now? I cp it for him all the time. The ledges everywere allow for canceled Bowser Bombs all over the place, he can recover from the water, his up tilts and upsmashes go right throught the middle platform, you can gimp people off the left side with firebreath, and he has enough forward KO potential to make up for the high ceiling.

 

[Veril]

A missed rest results in death from fully charged Fsmash at, like 35%...

This is not accurate.

Really, the matchup is 50/50 now. Trust me on this.

This is.

 

[MrEh]

Wow, this thread is actually discussing the matchup still?

Bowser and Jiggs are so sexy they deserve pages worth of discussion.

This is not accurate.

It's stage dependent really. With good DI, I think Jiggs can survive it at the middle of Final Destination. At the ledge though...probably not.

Even if it doesn't kill, 50% hurts. A lot.

Although it would seem that all of our quickness ect would have him at a disadvantage (like in Melee) he hits hard and kills early.

Because Brawl is much campier then Melee, it suits Bowser's defensive playstyle perfectly. He can ground himself, and fight his opponents much easier. Plus, with all the physics and hitstun changes, Bowser isn't comboed or gimped as easily. (Although he still does get comboed and gimped. )

a Koopa Klaw off the stage (which jiggs constantly is) is an instant SD kill, and one wrong move means jiggs is dead.

Missed Klaws off stage put Bowser in a bad position though. If anything, I'd be more scared from Klaws out of a grab release.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Bowser and Jiggs are so sexy they deserve pages worth of discussion.

true dat

It's stage dependent really. With good DI, I think Jiggs can survive it at the middle of Final Destination. At the ledge though...probably not.
Even if it doesn't kill, 50% hurts. A lot.

If good DI, do you mean just control stick DI? (SDI) If you use momentumn cancels correctly, you can live very long, so you should be abel to live a bit longer than 60%.

 

[illinialex24]

Bowser is gimped easier than most characters by Jigglypuff, because it takes one sourspotted fair to essentially kill him, but then again, dont expect it.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Bowser is gimped easier than most characters by Jigglypuff, because it takes one sourspotted fair to essentially kill him, but then again, dont expect it.

almost all the heavies besides DK are gimped eaisly by jiggs. Im going to brawl myself a good DK tomorow accualy xD. Oh, also make next week's matchup DK so I can share my matchup results.

 

[illinialex24]

almost all the heavies besides DK are gimped eaisly by jiggs. Im going to brawl myself a good DK tomorow accualy xD. Oh, also make next week's matchup DK so I can share my matchup results.

Uhhh... King Dedede isn't very easily gimped... Neither is Snake and he is a heavyweight. Snake is almost impossible to gimp and King Dedede is hard, but Donkey Kong isn't that hard compared to DDD and Snake.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Uhhh... King Dedede isn't very easily gimped... Neither is Snake and he is a heavyweight. Snake is almost impossible to gimp and King Dedede is hard, but Donkey Kong isn't that hard compared to DDD and Snake.

ah well i meant the "big" characters, so snake dosn't count.
DDD i dissagree with. Yes I should include him with DK accualy, but I think DK is slightly harder. I know what you mean, DDD is pretty hard, but its either one or the other is a tiny bit harder for some players, or they are the same. For my playstyle, I have some trouble with DDD, but a little less than DK. For you it's probobly the other way around.

EDIT: lol 609 posts! thats my area code xDDDDDDDD

 

[MrEh]

If good DI, do you mean just control stick DI? (SDI)

By good DI, I mean every singe type of DI and trick that'll keep you from dying.

If you use momentumn cancels correctly, you can live very long, so you should be abel to live a bit longer than 60%.

From a fully charged Bowser Fsmash? XD

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

From a fully charged Bowser Fsmash? XD

yes you can xD. chimpy did it on me, and i lived at 63%...... but it was on jungle japes, and there is a high celing so.....
Still, 50%. What if you only get hit by One of the 2 hits? the second one has the strong knockback. So no gimpy-combo?

If we dont end this soon, ill put up the disturbing bowser pic.

 

[MrEh]

yes you can xD. chimpy did it on me, and i lived at 63%...... but it was on jungle japes, and there is a high celing so.....
Still, 50%. What if you only get hit by One of the 2 hits?

The first hit sucks. Low damage and only average knockback.

Second hit does like 30%. XD