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Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

Jiggly

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I might get some of my puff replays to put up here.

Shes probably my second most played character in this game (main in melee/PM, used her in brawl a lot too) and I think she gets a lot of unfair ridicule.

Someone mentioned Rosalina, for what its worth, I find that Rosalina is the easiest top tier to deal with as puff with ZSS second. Still hard matchups for sure, but I'd rather a Rosa over like... 30 other characters in this game.
Several puffs think we beat rosa, which I dont agree with but can understand why. That said, I do think we beat ZSS. But that comes from the guy thinking that puff is at the top of mid tier *shrug*
 

Kojii

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Several puffs think we beat rosa, which I dont agree with but can understand why. That said, I do think we beat ZSS. But that comes from the guy thinking that puff is at the top of mid tier *shrug*
I think we lose to both Rosa and ZSS.

Can we please look more into this? Got it in friendlies, poor guy. Stage spiked him on the first kill, and on the second he failed to tech the platform as it was moving out of the screen, then this.
 
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I think we lose to both Rosa and ZSS.

Can we please look more into this? Got it in friendlies, poor guy. Stage spiked him on the first kill, and on the second he failed to tech the platform as it was moving out of the screen, then this.
Late Dash attacks jab locks at low percents, and you were barely in the range (I looked at the jab lock thread, and it said 0-35%, but maybe it it extends to 36%).
EDIT: It does, but not on all characters. I jab locked Mario, but I did not jab lock a Pikachu, so there's another factor (and I think it's weight) to consider when we jab lock, intentionally or not, an opponent.
Did some more testing at 36%, and was able to jab lock Diddy, Little Mac and Falco (the latter two have the same weight). I could not jab lock anybody lighter than Little Mac (that includes ZSS).
If you're wondering why Rest killed, it's because you had some Rage and were on T&C.
 
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CHOVI

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Several puffs think we beat rosa, which I dont agree with but can understand why. That said, I do think we beat ZSS. But that comes from the guy thinking that puff is at the top of mid tier *shrug*
Woah that's a strong declaration. Care to explain why you think she is at top of mid tier? I think we have waaay too many unfavorable matchups for that.

(By the way, I also think we beat ZSS; or at the very least, it is even)
 

drakeirving

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Jab locks work on knockback and the angle the opponent hits the ground at. Percent ranges are always going to be approximate due to character weight, maybe fall speed, and possibly even character height.
 
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MisterDom

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Lol guys we TOTALLY win against most top tiers, and high tiers like Yoshi, Ness, Villager, Diddy, and Luigi are like THE EASIEST THING ON THE EARTH!! Take my word I'm the best Jigglypuffles in the world got 82nd at a 89 man tourney...

Wait a minute


EDIT: We don't win against ZSS... And if we do, how??
 
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drakeirving

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I haven't fought any ZSS good enough that a losing matchup was apparent so I can't really say either way, but we pretty obviously have decent tools to combat some of her more straightforward ZSS stuff. Such a loss would seem to me like it would come from really good zoning and nair/fair walling mostly, using their range and speed to keep us out?
 

Jiggly

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Lol guys we TOTALLY win against most top tiers, and high tiers like Yoshi, Ness, Villager, Diddy, and Luigi are like THE EASIEST THING ON THE EARTH!! Take my word I'm the best Jigglypuffles in the world got 82nd at a 89 man tourney...

Wait a minute


EDIT: We don't win against ZSS... And if we do, how??
ZSS has issues approaching us, and we escape her infamous grab combos. We're small and can be in her face. It's like her pika MU, except we aren't as good as pika.
 
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Kojii

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ZSS has issues approaching us, and we escape her infamous grab combos. We're small and can be in her face. It's like her pika MU, except we aren't as good as pika.
Please tell me how to escape the combos, because I get bodied by ZSS.

Late Dash attacks jab locks at low percents, and you were barely in the range (I looked at the jab lock thread, and it said 0-35%, but maybe it it extends to 36%).
EDIT: It does, but not on all characters. I jab locked Mario, but I did not jab lock a Pikachu, so there's another factor (and I think it's weight) to consider when we jab lock, intentionally or not, an opponent.
Did some more testing at 36%, and was able to jab lock Diddy, Little Mac and Falco (the latter two have the same weight). I could not jab lock anybody lighter than Little Mac (that includes ZSS).
If you're wondering why Rest killed, it's because you had some Rage and were on T&C.
Sour spot dash attack locks medium characters 2% longer than sour spot fair 3% for heavies and 1% for light weights. It's a little different when the move is stale of course, but the lock is also affected by rage so they can even each other out. Here's a table of fair lock %s http://i.imgur.com/ahjjiK7.png?1
 

Kojii

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when you are at 30%, she shouldnt be able to double uair you. DI out and spam your jump button. at about 60% she wont be able to follow up grab with an uair at all.
Thank you for the tip (:
 

CHOVI

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Yeah, regarding ZSS also, we can duck some of her moves, and some of her unsafe aerials can be punished with a Rest :3
 
D

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What do you all think of the :4dedede: matchup?

Also no, "easy to rest" and "big hurtbox" aren't good enough answers.
 

drakeirving

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Haven't played enough. We have two prominent local DDDs, but I've only fought one of them; once offline and maybe 10-ish games online so far. I haven't been able to get around Swallow very well but I'm convinced I'm just doing it wrong, so my inexperience here shows.

If you want to volunteer and fight me sometime I'm always willing :)

Online Gordos are hella good, but offline I don't think they should be nearly as much trouble. A mid-range fast one as a mixup is probably the worst for me. Like many characters, we escape quite a few DDD things outside of some low% combos, so sometimes he also has surprising trouble killing. Ledge setups don't hurt us as much as other characters since with many jumps we can time our options quite well, but we do lack a potent offensive option to get back which basically guarantees that we're still in relative danger offstage, and we can't really flip it around into edgeguarding DDD. Killing of course is pretty crappy; uptilt kills way late and despite having a large hitbox getting him into a position to be rested can be difficult, and DDD is all about not letting the other dude into your box. Dtilt can be Rest punished which is nice. Nair can be punished fairly easily as well. Fair to Rest and dair to Rest have better confirms and ranges than most other characters. Powershielding is a must to learn here, and running powershield to punish is probably vital at high level.

I get the impression that this is a losing matchup, largely due to his massive resistance to dying from both hits and gimps, his raw power output, and ability to keep you out fairly well due to range.
 
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Codaption

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Yeah, I can't see this being a good matchup for us. Puff already struggles with killing and getting in, both problems accentuated respectively by Dedede's great survivability and disjoint. Not to mention that our small hitboxes make clearing Gordos tougher than it should be.

As Drake said, learning to powershielding is very important here, as a lot of his moves have a decent amount of endlag to punish. Bair in particular is a terrifying move that also autocancels out of a shorthop (no way that thing isn't safe on shield), but has a lot of startup so you should be able to perfect shield it on reaction. Just.... just don't mess up your timing.

Speaking of Bair... when does dthrow-> Bair stop working on us? I can't see him being able to land the regrab at any percent, so at least he won't be taking off 3/4 of our stock right off the bat (though I'd still like some confirmation on that, just in case. Making assumptions is a bad habit I'm trying to cut out).
 

MisterDom

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Yeah, I can't see this being a good matchup for us. Puff already struggles with killing and getting in, both problems accentuated respectively by Dedede's great survivability and disjoint. Not to mention that our small hitboxes make clearing Gordos tougher than it should be.

As Drake said, learning to powershielding is very important here, as a lot of his moves have a decent amount of endlag to punish. Bair in particular is a terrifying move that also autocancels out of a shorthop (no way that thing isn't safe on shield), but has a lot of startup so you should be able to perfect shield it on reaction. Just.... just don't mess up your timing.

Speaking of Bair... when does dthrow-> Bair stop working on us? I can't see him being able to land the regrab at any percent, so at least he won't be taking off 3/4 of our stock right off the bat (though I'd still like some confirmation on that, just in case. Making assumptions is a bad habit I'm trying to cut out).
It's pretty easy for Dedede to hit us with down throw--> fair all the way through... Maybe about 45%? At 35-40 he'll have to start doing a fast double jump, and any earlier than maybe 30 should be one quick jump and then fair after the dthrow. It stops working on us at about 50 or above. It shouldn't be very escapable... The combo meter says its true. Many Dedede players don't get it on me though, so fast timing is a key for the D3 player. Many of them don't have it, so it might be safe to jump airdodge... Maybe even trade or counter with nair... Preferably counter. High level Dedede players might read the airdodge jump, or just have the fast timings mastered.
 

CHOVI

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I don't really have any offline experience with DDD. Online though, the matchup is basically a nightmare. His high knockback + the fact that rest takes a freaking long time to kill makes it very difficult to deal with :c

By the way, does anyone have a chart with percentages where Dair->Rest works on each character? Might as well make sure before testing it ._.
 

Desu~

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What do you all think of the :4dedede: matchup?

Also no, "easy to rest" and "big hurtbox" aren't good enough answers.
Gonna be honest there, DDD's options and mixups are way too superior for Jiggs to be considered a "great MU".
Not saying it's an instant loss in this, but DDD can easily get around Jiggs pressure.
 
D

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Is jiggles really considered to be bad in the metagame? She isn't as good as she was in melee, but she's not as bad as she was in brawl.
Yup, she is. She's even worse than she was in Brawl, something I didn't know was possible but here we are.
 

Stickmanlolz

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Yup, she is. She's even worse than she was in Brawl, something I didn't know was possible but here we are.
There is no way she is considered worse than in Brawl, sure this game provides a much more competitively hostile environment for her due to all the disjointed characters and powerful projectiles, but she can always find a way to win with enough patience.
 

Quarium

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Yup, she is. She's even worse than she was in Brawl, something I didn't know was possible but here we are.
Disagree wholeheartedly, she mostly struggles a lot agaisnt the top section of the tier but between middle and the such she does stand a chance.

In brawl she was just trash in almost any situation, she was BAD.
 
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D

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There is no way she is considered worse than in Brawl, sure this game provides a much more competitively hostile environment for her due to all the disjointed characters and powerful projectiles, but she can always find a way to win with enough patience.
In Brawl she could at least still do two aerials in one shorthop, and her edgeguarding capabilities were much stronger than they are currently. Jigglypuff was dead in Brawl's metagame, and she's dead in Smash 4's. Her lack of range, awful ground game, losing incredibly hard to shield and having poor grabs, throws and set of specials don't make up for such a fragile character. Sure she has fast airspeed and fair and bair are good moves, but I can literally name 30-40+ characters with aerial ability that far outdoes Jigglypuff's. Her design is just far too polarized to ever be viable competitively. You could say the same thing for Little Mac, but at least his ground-hugging playstyle works when played to full effectiveness and he has good results to his name thanks to people like Sol or Alphicans. I can't say the same for Jiggs.

Disagree wholeheartedly, she mostly struggles a lot agaisnt the top section of the tier but between middle and the such she does stand a chance.

In brawl she was just trash in almost any situation, she was BAD.
Funny you mention that considering she was actually a (very situational, but still) counterpick to Diddy Kong in Brawl, who was top tier in that game. And nah. Name one character Jigglypuff has a slight advantage over or solidly counters outside of bottom tiers like Ganon or Zelda. And even then, her abilities far outdo hers. At least they can actually kill.
 
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CHOVI

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In Brawl she could at least still do two aerials in one shorthop, and her edgeguarding capabilities were much stronger than they are currently. Jigglypuff was dead in Brawl's metagame, and she's dead in Smash 4's. Her lack of range, awful ground game, losing incredibly hard to shield and having poor grabs, throws and set of specials don't make up for such a fragile character. Sure she has fast airspeed and fair and bair are good moves, but I can literally name 30-40+ characters with aerial ability that far outdoes Jigglypuff's. Her design is just far too polarized to ever be viable competitively. You could say the same thing for Little Mac, but at least his ground-hugging playstyle works when played to full effectiveness and he has good results to his name thanks to people like Sol or Alphicans. I can't say the same for Jiggs.



Funny you mention that considering she was actually a (very situational, but still) counterpick to Diddy Kong in Brawl, who was top tier in that game. And nah. Name one character Jigglypuff has a slight advantage over or solidly counters outside of bottom tiers like Ganon or Zelda. And even then, her abilities far outdo hers. At least they can actually kill.
I'm pretty sure Little Mac is less viable than Jigglypuff due to platform camping (a HUGE problem) and Sheik (worse than any of Jiggs's matchups)

Also Jigglypuff does well against Falcon (I think most of us can agree (?)) Which is High/Mid-High tier. Does that make you satisfied? Other people also think she does well against Rosalina, which is still debatable but could potentially answer your question as well.

Also, Jigglypuff can't kill? What does that even mean? Not having a kill throw?
 

MisterDom

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Boss Bossanova Boss Bossanova ... she's in a weird spot.

As you can tell from other posts, a lot of people seem to love her and some people seem to hate her.

Some top players think she's one of the worst in the game, while other good players see her as a underrated tick bomb that's about to explode in the community.

Many Jigglypuff players despise her. Some think she's worse than she was in brawl, and some think she has a way better tier than the one she's in now, which is among the worst in the game. It's possible next list that she will be the worst in the game, and that's my actual prediction. I personally don't agree with that, but it is what it is.

Looking at the tier list, there were lists where she was actually high to high mid tier (which was only... Maybe half a year ago? A little more than that?), and there are the more recent ones where she's awful.

It's confusing to place her because of her strong edge guard game, her side B (pound), and her characteristics. The main move that really judges her as a whole is... Of course, REST.

Some say it's amazing, and it's brutal power makes her better than tons of characters above her, and some say it's worthless, and without the low sheild stun it's harder to rest OOS, and that is the best way to get a safe rest to them. Rest is the move that really causes debate in the community, and the Jigglypuff community. Rest also isn't the whole character, and shouldn't place her on the list alone.

The puff mains are of course the best at getting rest, and we know about tons of setups that aren't too difficult to do, while the rest of the community thinks there is no setups. This causes Jigglypuff mains to think of the high placing she might get, as with other things that the community doesn't know as well as the mains.

Because of the confusion between the mains, the community, her tools and how useful they are, the rest of the neutral, her kill options, and her characteristics, she seems that she can be placed anywhere, and most of the community won't go crazy of it being absolutely wrong. No one really knows where to put her. It's all theory for now I suppose.

In conclusion, she is better than where she is on the list now, but she's not amazing. She has combos and setups, and her neutral can be somewhat effective in the right hands. Her neutral is still weaker than others, and her range isn't the best, and rest isn't the savior of Jigglypuff, placing her way higher than she should be like many other players in the community think.

I personally think she's in the lower end, but with full utilization and smart players, she could be put in mid tier, or possibly higher.

There really isn't a solid place for her anywhere, so it's your choice to put her somewhere with the knowledge given.

There are much more factors to both sides of saying Jigglypuff sucks, or Jigglypuff is so underrated and is pretty good. I didn't really go really in Super great detail with the confusion on rest, but you get my point.

EDIT: I forgot to talk about the matchups!! The MUs are also really debated right now. Most seem to think we do fine against most of the cast, and do decently against high/top tier. Some also think that we do absolutely awful and we can't do anything to anyone. A lot of MUs are disagreed upon by puffs around the world, and while I'll say that we underrate MUs, and I don't think the ratios given are the most accurate, I do believe we do okay against most characters, and our MUs aren't horrible. I will say that most MUs we "win" are somewhat incorrect. Against a good Rosa, we don't win or go even with her. Like seriously... what? It's not that bad, but... We WIN?!

Players often bash us for not winning anything, but that's not true either. If anything, we lean more toward winning against tons of characters, but thats not where we truly stand at all.
 
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D

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I'm pretty sure Little Mac is less viable than Jigglypuff due to platform camping (a HUGE problem) and Sheik (worse than any of Jiggs's matchups)

Also Jigglypuff does well against Falcon (I think most of us can agree (?)) Which is High/Mid-High tier. Does that make you satisfied? Other people also think she does well against Rosalina, which is still debatable but could potentially answer your question as well.

Also, Jigglypuff can't kill? What does that even mean? Not having a kill throw?
lol Jiggs does not counter Falcon, or ZSS like many on this board try to claim. My claim still holds that she has a really bad matchup spread.

Also on that last point, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't mention anything in regards to a kill throw. Point is, she still has trouble killing unless it's Rest or bair, the former being risky as hell to land and even then can be punished on successful hit (!!!) and the latter being slower than it was in past games. All her smashes are outright godawful and up tilt as a hitbox that's only behind her.
 

FunAtParties

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lol Jiggs does not counter Falcon, or ZSS like many on this board try to claim. My claim still holds that she has a really bad matchup spread.

Also on that last point, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't mention anything in regards to a kill throw. Point is, she still has trouble killing unless it's Rest or bair, the former being risky as hell to land and even then can be punished on successful hit (!!!) and the latter being slower than it was in past games. All her smashes are outright godawful and up tilt as a hitbox that's only behind her.
Dash attack is pretty decent, and her F-Smash isn't nearly as bad as you're claiming. If you set up kills with jab, it becomes a lot easier.
 
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Dash attack is pretty decent, and her F-Smash isn't nearly as bad as you're claiming. If you set up kills with jab, it becomes a lot easier.
Dash attack is still highly punishable on shield and jab is very short-ranged, so I doubt it.
 

FunAtParties

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Dash attack is still highly punishable on shield and jab is very short-ranged, so I doubt it.
It's highly punishable, which is why you don't spam it. Use it on occasion after setting it up with jab, and it's a good option. Make sure you jab to pound/grab before that so they don't automatically go for the shield. Jab's range isn't great, but it's not bad either, and it's quick and can be cancelled after the first jab, allowing it be a fairly safe option. People really need to use it more.

Seriously Jigglypuff sucks, we all know that, but sometimes I feel like the ones complaining are just jumping around using nairs and rest which is bound for failure.
 

Zethoro

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I can see Jiggs having a decent ZSS and Falcon MU, but they're even at best, and even then I'd still say Jiggs loses to them.
 
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I can see Jiggs having a decent ZSS and Falcon MU, but they're even at best, and even then I'd still say Jiggs loses to them.
Jiggs doesn't beat ZSS in any capacity. Falcon I can sorta see, but ZSS? Nope. Before anyone goes "b-but crouch!!", you have to take some other things into consideration. ZSS is a very versatile character all around, and literally all her aerials beat Jiggs pretty handily, especially bair and nair. Hell, she has ftilt and dtilt in response to Jiggs crouching, and can take advantage in general of Puff's poor air-to-ground-transitioning. Once ZSS grabs Puff and does her up air to Up-B combo, she dies before the last hit even connects. That's maximum kek right there.
 

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I can see Jiggs having a decent ZSS and Falcon MU, but they're even at best, and even then I'd still say Jiggs loses to them.
I honestly doubt she beats either one. I think the whole reasoning is that she gimps their recoveries easily (with Falcon who doesn't?), but she doesn't have much else.
 

Zethoro

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Jiggs doesn't beat ZSS in any capacity. Falcon I can sorta see, but ZSS? Nope. Before anyone goes "b-but crouch!!", you have to take some other things into consideration. ZSS is a very versatile character all around, and literally all her aerials beat Jiggs pretty handily, especially bair and nair. Hell, she has ftilt and dtilt in response to Jiggs crouching, and can take advantage in general of Puff's poor air-to-ground-transitioning. Once ZSS grabs Puff and does her up air to Up-B combo, she dies before the last hit even connects. That's maximum kek right there.
I completely agree, that's why I said "at best". I see why people think it's even, but I don't think so for the same reasons Kirby vs. ZSS isn't even despite Kirby being a better character. The two have the same problem in the matchup, neither can start any sort of offense because ZSS can shut it down without a problem. They can punish all but three or four moves with crouch, but that doesn't mean much because the ZSS can just keep them out to the point to where they'll never get the opportunity to punish anyway.
 

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lol Jiggs does not counter Falcon, or ZSS like many on this board try to claim. My claim still holds that she has a really bad matchup spread.

Also on that last point, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't mention anything in regards to a kill throw. Point is, she still has trouble killing unless it's Rest or bair, the former being risky as hell to land and even then can be punished on successful hit (!!!) and the latter being slower than it was in past games. All her smashes are outright godawful and up tilt as a hitbox that's only behind her.
I didn't put any words in your mouth, I was asking a question because I don't see what you mean when you say she can't kill. Sorry if it seemed otherwise.
 

Codaption

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I will say that a lot of matchup ratings tossed around here are flat-out wrong. The fact is that we don't have any people here that both come on often and play at a respectably high level, and with that in mind we should be focusing more on what we can do in each matchup than giving ratings that are very easily contested.

That being said, Falcon is definitely a good matchup for us. He definitely has some things you have to be wary of, like Uair and Dthrow-> knee (not to mention the stray fsmash/raptor boost), but playing carefully is part of the character and we just have so much going here when done right. The only reliable tools he has to cover where we space our aerials are falling Uair and Nair, which we can bait out or just shield and punish. His oos options are so bad that he basically can't punish our Fair at all (leaving Bair nice and fresh), and we can duck under both of his best approach options. Puff has a naturally good advantageous state that isn't hampered by our usual issues with getting in, and this in conjunction with Falcon's horrid disadvantaged state allows him very little room to avoid being dragged offstage for an edgeguard, or getting comboed into Rest.
(EDIT: Forgot to mention that Falcon's dash grab also can't usually catch us in the air, adding to the difficulty of landing a grab for him in this matchup. Considering Dthrow-> knee is true on us, that's kind of important.)

also... @Feelicks, you're kind of overestimating Puff's weaknesses.
-Yes, her options against shield aren't great compared to the rest of the roster, but she still has plenty albeit lesser options she can do to a shielding opponent. Bair is completely safe when used right, Fair is a great mixup that's also safe in certain matchups, fullhop Dair is great on shield in its own right and Pound is a great way to capitalize on weaker shields (you'd think it wouldn't be useful all that often until you realize that one Dair is all it takes to bring a shield to the point where Pound can break it). Even some of her grounded moves are nice on shield, with Utilt being difficult to punish on reaction in general, ftilt having frame advantage and her jab 2 is safe on shield when properly spaced. I'm dead serious on that last one, the thing has no lag and literally outranges all of her tilts. We can also empty hop or SHAD to bait out oos options, and fading Nair is completely safe if you land the sweetspot so it's a nice option when they're right on top of you.
-Going off of her options against shield... Puff's grab game is definitely bad, but it could honestly be much worse and we can still get use out of tomahawking in tandem with our other options. After all, our pummel is one of the most damaging in the game and all of our throws do 10%... for example, a single grab at 80ish% gives us two pummels and a throw, which equals about 16% on them. That's about as much or even more than a number of characters can get off of a throw combo, and plenty won't even be able to use said combos by that point. It also freshens our other moves (including Bair) by three spaces, and we get stage control of our choice without worrying about getting less damage for it. No, it is not a great option and I cannot pretend it will ever be, but that doesn't mean we're completely helpless.
-We have top 9 air acceleration, top 2 airspeed, and multiple jumps to let us turn on a dime. Please explain to me how a character that can cross up a shield thrice with one aerial is in the lower half for air mobility.
-Poor range is something Puff has struggled with since the outset, and Sing and rollout have always been mediocre. I can't deny that both of these issues are exacerbated in this game, though.
-Puff's ground game is actually not as bad as you'd think. Well... no, scratch that, it's pretty bad but that's entirely due to her horrid ground movement. Puff actually has several grounded moves that are quite good, even considering poor range. Our frame 5 Jab is a tad slow for a move of its kind but is still a great way to relieve pressure, can lead into mixups with Rest or Fsmash (Jab->Grounded Rest is true on fatties), can combo into itself and dash attack and has very little commitment to it (also, Jab 2 again has surprising range). Dash Attack is stupid fast (also frame 5), has a great hitbox and priority that's weird in the best of ways. Also, it kills- it's not as good as, say, Meta Knight's and it's generally not too safe but it's just a solid move overall. Utilt is great for combos and cheese kills, ftilt is alright on shield and even her smash attacks aren't too horrid (they all have high startup but to compensate they have low cooldown for smash attacks, Fsmash hits like a truck and Usmash has deceptive range that's also somewhat disjointed. Even Dsmash is alright as a ledge trump option). She can still make good use of all of these by landing when need be, or even just staying on the ground if they're not far away.

Matchups are the one thing that really kills us. Though Puff doesn't actually do too poorly against the cast as a whole, even the top tiers, she still has few advantageous matchups and there are a few characters that could be considered as relatively hard counters (That being said, it's still a better matchup spread than any trash-tier character should be having).
Another major issue of hers is her extremely low tournament representation. This is a problem that feeds off of itself, likely sparked by the mentality of Puff being a trash tier character... as a result, almost nobody wants to pick her up, and the few people who do have basically nothing to go off of in order to improve. Her meta's progression is stifled, and people look at her poor results and are further convinced that the character has no potential. It's a rather annoying vicious cycle.

Personally? I don't think the character is great. I wouldn't even say she's solo viable. That being said, she has enough going for her that putting her near the bottom is unreasonable; my impression of her is somewhere in the confused muddle of fighters that is the middle tier. Even with our issues with representation, new stuff is being found constantly and by this point all it'll take is one person to step up and show the world where we really can stand in the meta.
 
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