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Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

Luig

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Proud to announce that after endless hours of labbing, the air release followups for all of the cast on Jigglypuff is finished! Here's said list:

Reliable Followups Out of Air Release

:4luigi:: Looks like the eternal understudy outdoes his brother. Luigi has kill confirms with back air and Cyclone, the latter being particularly deadly if done on the top platform of Battlefield or Dream Land.
:4peach:: Forward air is a kill confirm from every angle due to its sweeping hitbox.
:4bowser:: Forward air and back air are kill confirms.
:4yoshi:: Can also do forward air and back air, but both don't kill until north of 100%. He's able to do up air if its on Smashville's moving platform.
:rosalina:: Foward air and up air can be used. The former is a kill confirm near the ledge, the latter anywhere on stage but particularly deadly on BF/DL's platforms.
:4bowserjr:: Fair, nair and bair can be used out of it. Nair and bair reliably kill at high percents.
:4wario:: Down air is a KO confirm.
:4dk:: Neutral air kills, up air kills on Smashville's platform.
:4gaw:: Forward air is a kill confirm at the ledge, Fire if hit just right.
:4shulk:: Air Slash is a KO confirm in either Smash or Jump mode.
:4link:: Forward air and Spin Attack are kill confirms anywhere on the stage.
:4sheik:: Bouncing Fish is a KO confirm from 90-100%, and is even more deadly with rage.
:4ganondorf:: Hoooo boy Ganon has the most deadly followups out of all the characters I've labbed so far. Forward air, uair, and bair are all guaranteed KO confirms, especially at the ledge. He also has the option of using Dark Dive, even if it doesn't kill reliably.
:4tlink:: Forward air, back air, Spin Attack and neutral air are all KO confirms.
:4samus:: Neutral air, forward air, Charge Shot and back air are KO confirms.
:4zss:: Boost Kick is 100% guaranteed. You don't even have to move towards Jiggs to do it similar to Shulk with Air Slash whenever in Smash or Jump mode. She can also do Flip Kick out of air release when she's near a ledge and spike Jiggs.
:4wiifit:: Up air, forward air and neutral air are KO confirms. Down air is is a spike confirm when air release is done at the ledge.
:4pit:: Back air is a KO confirm. Forward air and Upperdash Arm are other followups.
:4palutena:: Neutral air and up air are KO confirms, back air kills when done at the ledge. Forward air is a followup but it's not advised due to the move's low knockback.
:4darkpit:: Very same as Pit.
:4marth:: Tipper nair, bair and fair are KO confirms. Dolphin Slash and up smash can kill when done at the ledge or at the end of a platform.
:4myfriends:: Bair and fair are KO confirms. Up smash is a KO confirm when done at the ledge or at the end of a platform.
:4feroy:: Sweetspotted fair, sweetspotted bair and Blazer are KO confirms.
:4robinf:: Levin Sword forward air, back air and up air are KO confirms.
:4dedede:: Dedede's back air is a KO confirm. Forward air is a followup but of little utility due to its low knockback onstage and even at the ledge.
:4metaknight:: Shuttle Loop is a fully guaranteed KO confirm, back air is a KO confirm above 100% and can even kill earlier if rage is factored in.
:4fox:: Back air is a KO confirm. Forward air and neutral air are also followups, but lack KO power.
:4falco:: Forward air is a KO confirm above 105%, particularly at the ledge. Back air deserves to be feared in every way. Down air can spike at the ledge, but this requires proper timing due to the move's startup.
:4charizard:: Fly is a KO confirm, as is sweetspotted back air. Forward air is also another followup, up air can also be used but is tricky and needs strict timing.
:4greninja:: Forward air is a KO confirm, back air is another followup out of release and can be easily improved in terms of knockback by rage.
:4lucario:: Back air and Aura Sphere are KO confirms. Forward air is a followup that kills with enough Aura, up air is very situational due to its narrow hitbox.
:4jigglypuff:: Yey, a mirror match! Puff has a back air KO confirm on herself, and Rest can be used as a followup on air release as well if timed right on-point.
:4mewtwo:: Forward air and Shadow Ball are KO confirms, as is up air when done on low-ceiling stages or on top of Battlefield/Dream Land. Back air is another followup that also benefits from when Mewtwo is in rage.
:4rob:: Back air is a KO confirm, neutral air and forward air don't kill but also can be used as followups.
:4ness:: Ooooh boy.. back air and up air are KO confirms, along with forward air and neutral air being followups with the latter being able to kill with rage. Down air is a situational spike at the ledge due to slow startup.
:4lucas:: Sweetspotted fair is a KO confirm, sweetspotted back air spikes at the ledge, up air requires strict timing due to it's tiny hitbox.
:4falcon:: You guys ain't gonna like this. Falcon's Knee and back air are KO confirms, up air is especially deadly on Battlefield/Dream Land's top platforms or any other stage with a low ceiling. Down air is a spike at the ledge, and if that doesn't hit the move's sourspot is capable of KOing Jiggs to the side blast zone.
:4littlemac:: Can do Rising Uppercut right out of air release.
:4drmario:: Forward air and back are are KO confirms. Dr. Tornado kills at the ledge, and is very deadly on low ceiling stages or on Battlefield/Dream Land's top platforms.
:4pacman:: Down air and back air are KO confirms north of 110%. Neutral air and forward air may also be used as followups but are weaker than the moves just mentioned.
:4megaman:: Back air is a rather deadly kill confirm. Forward air is another followup out of air release.
:4sonic:: Back air is a kill confirm (so many back airs as KO confirms, lmao), forward air is particularly deadly with Rage or at the ledge.
:4ryu:: Back air, Tatsumaki Senpukyaku (when inputted), Shoryuken & True Shoryuken are ALL guaranteed KO confirms. Forward air is a followup as well, and down air is a spike confirm at the ledge.
:4cloud:: Oh dear... forward air has a spike confirm at the ledge, up air is a KO confirm on low-ceiling stages and on top of Battlefield/Dream Land, back air is a followupa s well. Finishing Touch is a KO confirm out of air release. Watch out for this. Seriously.
:4miibrawl:: Helicopter Kick and Onslaught are KO confirms.
:4miigun:: Back air is a KO confirm.
:4miisword:: Back air and forward air are KO confirms, as is Hero's Spin.

Situational Followups Out of Air Release

:4mario:: Mario's finicky, he doesn't do air release unless near the edge of a stage or platform. When that's the case though, Super Jump Punch and up air can be used out of it. Neither really kill that well until north of 120%, so I would not worry.

:4zelda:: The angle is just right for Zelda to perform her Lightning Kicks, but she's here due to the move's needed precision to hit it due to the small sweetspot it has.

:4duckhunt:: Forward air is a followup, back air is very tricky to hit with due to its startup but kills. Puff falls out of up air before all three hits connect.

:4kirby:: Puff falls out of Kirby's forward air, usually after the first or last hits. Nair is too weak as a followup, and bair only has the chance of its sourspot hitting limiting its utility. However, uncharged Hammer Flip is a KO confirm and especially deadly on top of Battlefield or Dream Land.
:4olimar:: The specific properties of Olimar's grab (it having the Pikmin grab for him) require precision in order to initiate air release, usually right just near the ledge of the stage or just near the end of a platform. Despite this, Olimar's back air is a KO confirm.

No or Lackluster Followups Out of Air Release

:4diddy:: Diddy can use fair, bair and uair out of it but there's so little reward in it that there's no point in doing so due to their low knockback onstage.
:4lucina:: Lucina's aerials don't KO until very high percentages, making it pointless for her to perform an air release on Jiggs.
:4pikachu:: Forward air and back air are too weak to kill at any realistic percentages anywhere on the stage, Thunderspike at ledge is extremely situational and not advised.
:4villager:: Villager's only real followups are fair, nair and bair, which aren't all that useful due to their low knockback.
It's kinda said you guys will have to deal with the wario thing again.
Hopefully this gets brought to light and patches.

(in other news, I'll be using this when I play against puff.
 

Smeefy

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I need help with the Roy matchup. He feels too fast and outranges us. His moves are deadly and kill at low percents. Not to mention his recovery is tricky to gimp.
Any advice on how to approach and how to fight him in general?
With Roy I suggest waiting and baiting for him to over extend. Spacing is key in this and the Marth match up especially. For a good bait try Shading. or empty hopping in and out that's sure to produce a reaction from him.
 

CHOVI

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With Roy I suggest waiting and baiting for him to over extend. Spacing is key in this and the Marth match up especially. For a good bait try Shading. or empty hopping in and out that's sure to produce a reaction from him.
Thanks! Yeah I think I need to be more patient with him.
 
D

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MK Is pretty much 100:0 for you guys now considering the air release into Shuttle Loop. If he grabs you at 80% and does that you're dead.
 

Zerp

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So, on the topic of Jigglypuff's terrible air release shenanigans, if we're fine with bringing attention to it, does anyone have any ideas on how we should bring attention to it?

Reason I'm asking is because I think this may actually be able to work out in our favor, if we play our card here right. If we can make people absolutely disgusted and/or upset that this is a thing, and draw so much attention to it that no one could possibly ignore it, then Sakurai will probably end up learning about it, and may fix it. And if he fixes it, since that would mean he's already working on Puff, that may just be the last push he needs to actually start doing some things for her and hopefully buff her. So, I think that while it definitely sucks, it has a chance of being helpful to us in the long run.
 
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Kojii

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With Roy I suggest waiting and baiting for him to over extend. Spacing is key in this and the Marth match up especially. For a good bait try Shading. or empty hopping in and out that's sure to produce a reaction from him.
What's this "shading"?
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
So, on the topic of Jigglypuff's terrible air release shenanigans, if we're fine with bringing attention to it, does anyone have any ideas on how we should bring attention to it?

Reason I'm asking is because I think this may actually be able to work out in our favor, if we play our card here right. If we can make people absolutely disgusted and/or upset that this is a thing, and draw so much attention to it that no one could possibly ignore it, then Sakurai will probably end up learning about it, and may fix it. And if he fixes it, since that would mean he's already working on Puff, that may just be the last push he needs to actually start doing some things for her and hopefully buff her. So, I think that while it definitely sucks, it has a chance of being helpful to us in the long run.
Maybe somebody can make a video showing all the followups most of the cast have on her. Lucas and Samus mains made videos in regards to design flaws of their characters, and they got buffs tbf
 

Codaption

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Hhhhh... I'm still trying to be optimistic as far as our ability to avoid getting grabbed goes, but this is definitely very bad for us.

There's not really much point in trying to hide it by now, making a video for this seems like the best route to go. We can at least hope this isn't the kind of thing Sakurai will ignore, as it's kind of akin to a bug of sorts and definitely a massive disadvantage for our character.

EDIT: Btw, can you retest Uair on both Villy and Ness? Villy Dair might work as well, Iunno.
 
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Thinkaman

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Virtually everything that was posted about grab releases was wrong.

You can double jump out of everything except like ZSS, Shulk, and LM (optimized dash-JC) up-Bs. And you can SDI out of the former two.

Charizard doesn't even hold high. WTF are all you guys even talking about?

Me and AA tested literally every grab release in the game like a million years ago.

Sorry that your character doesn't actually suck, I guess?
 
D

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Guest
Virtually everything that was posted about grab releases was wrong.

You can double jump out of everything except like ZSS, Shulk, and LM (optimized dash-JC) up-Bs. And you can SDI out of the former two.

Charizard doesn't even hold high. WTF are all you guys even talking about?

Me and AA tested literally every grab release in the game like a million years ago.

Sorry that your character doesn't actually suck, I guess?
Gah, sorry about all this. My sincerest apologies, but it's at least relieving that most of this isn't true on Jiggs.
 

Thinkaman

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Gah, sorry about all this. My sincerest apologies, but it's at least relieving that most of this isn't true on Jiggs.
Props for otherwise rigorous lab work. You just got fooled by the combo counter, which is actually pretty accurate in most situations but misbehaves with grab releases and buries.

How do you air release?
If the opponent was pummeling, you release to the ground.

Else, if your opponent has a special grab animation (Yoshi, WFT, Mega Man, Snake in Brawl) you release to the air.

Else, if the opponent is a character that "holds high" and you are a "short" character, you release to the air.

Else, if you otherwise not touching the ground (due to a slope or the end of the stage/platform) you release to the air.

Else, if your last input was jump or up, you release to the air.

Else, you release to the ground.
 
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DisidisiD

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Lol combo counter. I got a 999 hit combo by grabbing at the ledge, pummeling, releasing, have them grab the ledge and jump back onto the stage, regrab, pummel, etc. Grab releases are not accurate in training mode. Though, that must have taken a ton of lab work so I must say bravo. Yay jiggs still not bottom of the tier list (yet).
 

drakeirving

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I was going to lab this personally because I could have sworn that I've been in these situations before and have escaped by DJAD. Anyways, love to Thinkaman as always, and props to Feelicks for putting in the work.

EDIT: Way too many people are viewing this thread. There is actually nothing to see here, guys.
 
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Aunt Jemima

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we should all go play SLHG where Marth has a true grab release > tipper F-Smash on Jigglypuff
 

Desu~

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y'see, we wouldn't have this kind of **** if Jigglypuff had a decent amount of range on most or all of it's ground moves.
Jiggs range overall is ****, startup is ****, endlag is ****, dependant-heavy % combos are actually ****.
The only **** we'll ever say is that at least Jiggs beats Ganon like we did back then in brawl.

Sakurai betrayed his own favorite **** pokemon.

****.
 

Jiggly

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Ledge drop and a lot of stuff though, right? I'm sure it won't cover invincible upBs or eggs. And how would it cover getup attacks?
correct, almost all, if not all, drop options cant be covered by this. That said, if you can force an opponent to one get up option, you're doing something right.

it covers some get up attacks, it depends. Attacks were it has a jab hit box, or a horizontal hitbox, you will cover. If someone has an arcing get up attack, it wont cover it. If someone seems to get up attack a lot and has a big hitbox on it, feel free to empty sh above ledge, ffretreat to shield, and get the shield on getup attack, and then get the free rest.
 

Codaption

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You can just hold shield at the ledge to cover ledge attack. Since you can still jump out and use Dair, there's practically no commitment and if they do use ledge attack that gets us a free Rest.

also, really happy that the grab release thing didn't turn out the way it could've. I doubt that it would've been able to send us all the way down to being the worst character, because we can still avoid grabs and Ganon exists, but it'd still been pretty bad. For future reference, guys, please please pleeeeeeeeEEEESE do not rely on the combo meter to determine whether something is true. The thing's buggy and just not very reliable, test this stuff with another person on hand to try and escape whatever it is you're doing.
 

CHOVI

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y'see, we wouldn't have this kind of **** if Jigglypuff had a decent amount of range on most or all of it's ground moves.
Jiggs range overall is ****, startup is ****, endlag is ****, dependant-heavy % combos are actually ****.
The only **** we'll ever say is that at least Jiggs beats Ganon like we did back then in brawl.

Sakurai betrayed his own favorite **** pokemon.

****.
We also beat Falcon. RIGHT EVERYONE?
 

Codaption

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Falcon is definitely a good matchup for us. He definitely has some things you have to be wary of, like Uair and Dthrow-> knee (not to mention the stray fsmash/raptor boost), but playing carefully is part of the character and we just have so much going here when done right. The only reliable tools he has to cover where we space our aerials are falling Uair and Nair, which we can bait out or just shield and punish. His oos options are so bad that he basically can't punish our Fair at all (leaving Bair nice and fresh), and we can duck under both of his best approach options. Puff has a naturally good advantageous state that isn't hampered by our usual issues with getting in, and this in conjunction with Falcon's horrid disadvantaged state allows him very little room to avoid being dragged offstage for an edgeguard, or getting comboed into Rest.
(EDIT: Forgot to mention that Falcon's dash grab also can't usually catch us in the air, adding to the difficulty of landing a grab for him in this matchup. Considering Dthrow-> knee is true on us, that's kind of important.)
Mmmmmmmmmyep.
 

Desu~

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Howdy guys!

Just checking to see if anyone was hyped about the upcoming patch.
Hoping we get some neat stuff for Jigglypuff in the future!

...

.........

Huh?

What do you mean it's not gonna happen?

You mean to tell me that Jigglypuff didn't get patched last time?

And that this patch won't be any different?

Well golly gee, that's too bad!

But that's fine, because we never really wanted to get THAT competitive in the scene, right?

If we keep going, we're gonna keep getting chuckles from smashboards for trying so hard for such a limited character.

In any case, we'll just change to a better character and everything's gonna be alright guys!
I still believe though.
 
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Codaption

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@Serynder has been talking about some tech of his for a long time, but I don't think he's ever actually showed it off... you willing to share that yet, or are you still saving it for when you can display it in tourney?
 

Kojii

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@Serynder has been talking about some tech of his for a long time, but I don't think he's ever actually showed it off... you willing to share that yet, or are you still saving it for when you can display it in tourney?
From his Ask.fm
"
WHERES THE BROKEN JIGGLYPUFF SETUP YOU FOUND ITS BEEN MONTHS SERY
i already did it. you just have to look carefully."

the only way to find cool stuff with puff is to keep playing her. so, TO THE LAB!
I personally think perfect pivots, foot stools and option selects should be explored more.
 

Codaption

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Keep in mind that the only known that jab locks at Rest kill percent is Dair, and we all know how unreliable that's turned out to be.
"I already did it. you just have to look carefully."
...Erm... can I phone a friend??

I mean, c'mon, this isn't a game... well, it is a game but that's besides the point. @Serynder What's the point in keeping this from us as long as you have? I'm genuinely curious.
 
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MisterDom

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Keep in mind that the only known that jab locks at Rest kill percent is Dair, and we all know how unreliable that's turned out to be.


...Erm... can I phone a friend??

I mean, c'mon, this isn't a game... well, it is a game but that's besides the point. @Serynder What's the point in keeping this from us as long as you have? I'm genuinely curious.
It could be a game! If he's saying that this thing can be found, it's probably on YouTube somewhwere. Whoever finds it first wins? ^_^

If something's broken and has been done, it shouldn't be near impossible to guess.
 
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