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Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

Codaption

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I feel like it'd have been pointed out by now if it was something truly meta-shattering, but I guess you never know... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I would at least like to know if there's a point to it before sending a bunch of people on a glorified Easter egg hunt, though. If it's something reasonable, then alright.
 

Kojii

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Keep in mind that the only known that jab locks at Rest kill percent is Dair, and we all know how unreliable that's turned out to be.
Sour spot dash attack can lock some characters at kill% on t&c :)
 

drakeirving

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Sweet bair -> ftilt lock -> dair -> Rest works on and kills a large portion of the cast (with varying ease) at the 15% range, but it's really tight. Too low and sweet bair won't knock down, or you don't kill; too high and ftilt stops locking. Getting the Rest can be tough or impossible depending how heavy/fally they are.

Sweet bair -> weak dash attack lock -> dair -> Rest is better in the sense that weak dash attack locks later than ftilt, and if you start around 20%, many characters will be easier to connect the Rest with. However due to bair sending characters different distances, it's harder to get the weak hit of dash attack since you have to space it accordingly, whereas ftilt you just follow them through the bair.

Optimistically, you could be throwing out bairs around these percents and depending on whether you happen to be retreating or advancing at the time you could pick dash attack or ftilt to follow up with. Realistically it would be crazy to depend on that kind of select in a real match due to the various windows involved, and hitting sweet bair isn't the easiest thing to do in the first place.
 
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Smeefy

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Sweet bair -> ftilt lock -> dair -> Rest works on and kills a large portion of the cast (with varying ease) at the 15% range, but it's really tight. Too low and strong bair won't knock down, or you don't kill; too high and ftilt stops locking. Getting the Rest can be tough or impossible depending how heavy/fally they are.

Sweet bair -> weak dash attack lock -> dair -> Rest is better in the sense that weak dash attack locks later than ftilt, and if you start around 20%, many characters will be easier to connect the Rest with. However due to bair sending characters different distances, it's harder to get the weak hit of dash attack since you have to space it accordingly, whereas ftilt you just follow them through the bair.

Optimistically, you could be throwing out bairs around these percents and depending on whether you happen to be retreating or advancing at the time you could pick dash attack or ftilt to follow up with. Realistically it would be crazy to depend on that kind of select in a real match due to the various windows involved, and hitting sweet bair isn't the easiest thing to do in the first place.
This is an awesome find I need to lab this
 

drakeirving

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I didn't find anything, it's just a combination of stuff we already know. I'm just explaining some locks that can feasibly lead to kill combos/strings.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Hey, I'm looking at short hop autocancel Nair, and it looks pretty good for covering ledge options. It has enough duration to catch the first vulnerable frame of all four of them (get-up, jump, attack, roll). If you look at the frame data of the options, you'll see that the first vulnerable frame is 13-35 between every character and every option. With four notable exceptions - Palutena and the three Miis have a first vulnerable frame of 44 on getup for some reason. Excluding that, it's a vulnerability range of 23 frames, and Jigglypuff's Nair has a duration of 25 active frames.

All you need to do as far as timing is wait for them to start moving as part of a ledge option animation before you jump. Though I can see a few issues. For instance, Ledge Jump is the fastest of the options to act out of. It's so quick that, if your reaction timing is too slow, you can trade unfavorably with their own aerials or just miss entirely. Plus in order to catch ledge roll, you have to move yourself away from the ledge. You can only be spaced to hit ledge jump and ledge roll at their first vulnerable frame, never both. But spacing for jump is more optimal, because ledge roll has so much vulnerable endlag for you to react to and punish. If you fail to catch ledge roll with Nair, you'll still auto cancel and have the frame advantage to hit them with dash attack or a grab. Jump only has like two vulnerable frames before they can perform actions, so you want to have it covered. Plus, since you've got them right at the edge, a strong hit of Nair could kill if they have sufficient damage and have chosen Jump. Otherwise, a soft Nair puts them back out there for a stronger offstage edgeguard.

What do you guys think? Optimal ledge coverage, or not good enough to always try?
 
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Codaption

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Both retreating Nair and Dair are fantastic options for covering the ledge, and do so in fairly similar ways. There are a few differences there, though- Dair is more damaging and can set up WoP, and does a better job of covering roll getup as well (Nair might just send them back into the stage), while Nair has more active frames and finds more success against shorties than Dair.

There are two ledge options these aerials can't really cover all that well, though: ledge attack and ledge hop. Ledge attack isn't really an issue, because all we have to do to cover that is hold shield (with virtually no commitment, as you can still jump oos, and if they choose it you get a free Rest), but we need to read ledge hop in order to cover it.

(They should cover instant getup just fine, though. The opponent would be waltzing straight into a hitbox if we time it right.)
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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I looked at Dair too, it's got as much duration, but you have to full hop in order to autocancel that one. Plus she travels a bit high to catch some characters with their unique animations, or just short ones like Pikachu. There's one other issue regarding that attack's frame data. There's one frame periods between hits where no hitbox is active. This is a problem for neutral get up, which has just one vulnerable frame before they can shield. And since one out of every three frames of the move has no hitbox, there's a 33% chance you'll get blocked from somebody holding shield for a neutral getup.

But yeah, as you say, the Dair can have better reward on success because of that final hit. I think they're both good options. You gotta be thinking about ledge coverage. You can't always be out there to intercept recoveries in time.
 

CHOVI

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If you're on the ledge, you can cover some characters' rolls with an immediate roll into rest. That forces the opponent to either jump, regular getup, or drop (ledge attack is a free rest, so I'm not gonna count it) the next time.
 

Jiggly

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Well i agree with both of you sitting in shield is the best option
ummmmmmmm, no. Shielding at the edge hoping for a get up attack is a FG tactic that will work against bad players. Dair is an amazing tools for covering all get up options except the drop option. Just because you can get a cheese kill with an option doesnt make it the best option. The best option is the safest, most reliable, and most versitile option. Which is dair or nair.
 

Codaption

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bc dair covers more options than shield at ledge. shielding covers one option where dair covers 4 options.
You're forgetting that you can jump oos :p You're covering one option for free while still leaving yourself more than capable of covering others with Dair, there's literally no reason to not take advantage of that.
 

Smeefy

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ummmmmmmm, no. Shielding at the edge hoping for a get up attack is a FG tactic that will work against bad players. Dair is an amazing tools for covering all get up options except the drop option. Just because you can get a cheese kill with an option doesnt make it the best option. The best option is the safest, most reliable, and most versitile option. Which is dair or nair.
Dude all these options are mix ups your not suppose to use them all the time
 

Jiggly

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You're forgetting that you can jump oos :p You're covering one option for free while still leaving yourself more than capable of covering others with Dair, there's literally no reason to not take advantage of that.
With how high get up jump is, you can't really react to a getup option and punish.
 

Jiggly

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What does our getup jump have to do with jump oos? How did us being on the ledge become a factor???
The opponents getup jump. Reacting to a get up jump with a jump OOS isn't really gonna happen with how slow puffs jump is. You would have to do it before the get up, which ruins the point of shielding in the first place.
 

Kojii

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Using Dthrow at the ledge causes the KB to be halved, so you can follow up on it. But not all characters get the Halved KB apparantly
Halved is a litte exaggerated, it's just reduced.

Here's the real deal, we call it the Jig jig
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Ha, it's unfortunate it's only possible at a ledge. Any time you can combo an aerial should be a time you can combo a rest as jiggs. But if you go for rest offstage, you die. I'm told these reduced knockback throw combos also work on the edge of a platform too, not just the stage's ledges.
 

Kojii

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I'm told these reduced knockback throw combos also work on the edge of a platform too, not just the stage's ledges.
That's true, doing this on the smashville platform makes following up even easier. Unfortunatly,I haven't been able to do dthrow rest yet. I just got an idea for a new setup that might work though, so I'll test that tomorrow :)
 

drakeirving

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I still don't know where people get the idea that being able to land an aerial means you can land a Rest. Like, what? Aerials have disjoint and reach???? Rest doesn't at all????
 

Kojii

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I still don't know where people get the idea that being able to land an aerial means you can land a Rest. Like, what? Aerials have disjoint and reach???? Rest doesn't at all????
Dthrow rest might actually work on some characters on a horizontally moving platform.

It's impossible to combo anything after the uair shown in the video, because you hit with the tip .
 

Codaption

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He wasn't saying it was possible, just that it should be.

This... I dunno, man. It's nice damage, at least, but I can't see this being that useful unless we can get some other kind of followup after it. Unless you can use it to snag their jump, which would admittedly be really scary with them being right next to the ledge.
 

Kojii

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He wasn't saying it was possible, just that it should be.

This... I dunno, man. It's nice damage, at least, but I can't see this being that useful unless we can get some other kind of followup after it. Unless you can use it to snag their jump, which would admittedly be really scary with them being right next to the ledge.
Hey, it's actually possible on T&C, but it probably loses to DI
 

Desu~

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Hey there guys! What's up?

*checks new hot topic tech*

...You guys sure are desperate, aren't you?
 

TurboPikachu

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What happened to all the talk of the sourspotted fAir to rest? I still use it reliably all the time.
Despite the video below being an online match, I have still been able to reliably sourspot-fAir > rest offline in local tournaments.
 
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