Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[Karsticles]

Because playing Yoshi is like driving a race car in a parking lot, very awkward and too fast IMO.
I may have lost to two consecutive Yoshi mains in my first Tournament, but I gave both of them a very hard time ESPECIALLY in the air.

btw:nice to see a Bowser main here

Oh, haha. I should update that. I main Mewtwo these days. I play Bowser and Puff on the side. I mostly play Bowser when I want to scrub stomp someone that calls me a spammer.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

Oh, haha. I should update that. I main Mewtwo these days. I play Bowser and Puff on the side. I mostly play Bowser when I want to scrub stomp someone that calls me a spammer.

Breaking their shields with Bowser Bomb must be very satisfying.

But back to my original question...WHAT DOES YOSHI HAVE THAT WE DON'T!? D:<

 

[Karsticles]

Breaking their shields with Bowser Bomb must be very satisfying.

But back to my original question...WHAT DOES YOSHI HAVE THAT WE DON'T!? D:<

I thought I answered your question. :-P

I'll also add: great combos at various % to build damage crazy fast, an aerial command grab, and an easy mode spike.

 

[FunAtParties]

I secondary Yoshi. He has pretty much everything, but a true kill combo. His uair is ridiculously good (really fast plus a kill move), his down b start up is insanely fast (I punish people who try and punish my fsmash with it) and it breaks shields very easily, almost all his aerials autocancel and the have janky hitboxes, he has a projectile that helps with his recovery, best aerial speed in the game, heavyweight, powerful smash attacks with stupid hitboxes, I could go on. I'm honestly flabbergasted on how there isn't at least one Yoshi main constantly placing high at tournaments. I hope ESAM picks him up as a co-main, but that's a topic for a different thread. All Jiggs has on him is gimping really, which isn't that easy because as said, Yoshi has the best aerial speed in the game (with Puff at 2), with multiple aerial movement options to help him mix up his recovery, as well as a parry where he can just walk through certain attacks. It's a bad MU.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

I secondary Yoshi. He has pretty much everything, but a true kill combo. His uair is ridiculously good (really fast plus a kill move), his down b start up is insanely fast (I punish people who try and punish my fsmash with it) and it breaks shields very easily, almost all his aerials autocancel and the have janky hitboxes, he has a projectile that helps with his recovery, best aerial speed in the game, heavyweight, powerful smash attacks with stupid hitboxes, I could go on. I'm honestly flabbergasted on how there isn't at least one Yoshi main constantly placing high at tournaments. I hope ESAM picks him up as a co-main, but that's a topic for a different thread. All Jiggs has on him is gimping really, which isn't that easy because as said, Yoshi has the best aerial speed in the game (with Puff at 2), with multiple aerial movement options to help him mix up his recovery, as well as a parry where he can just walk through certain attacks. It's a bad MU.

In other words Yoshi needs a few small nerfs with a buff to give him a kill combo/Jigglypuff needs some Jiggly love from Sakurai(why does a non-flying dinosaur have better aerial mobility than a balloon?)

 

[FunAtParties]

In other words Yoshi needs a few small nerfs with a buff to give him a kill combo/Jigglypuff needs some Jiggly love from Sakurai(why does a non-flying dinosaur have better aerial mobility than a balloon?)

Sounds good to me.

 

[Codaption]

I don't really have too much of an issue with Yoshi outspeeding us in the air, considering that's how it's been in every official game that isn't Melee, but it's still a shame when Yoshi does a lot of things better than we do. That being said, Yoshi doesn't actually get a whole lot off of his air mobility in comparison to us- once he jumps, he can choose a single option and if it's not ET that jump is pretty much spent, whereas we can still get stuff like Fair WoP or Dair -> Rest (if dair is FH'd).

Speaking of aerials, saying his are better than ours (in a general sense) is also a bit subjective- Yoshi's pack a punch and he gets some pretty nice frame traps off of them, but aside from his SHAD and Uair they're all lacking in some way.
-Nair has slightly iffy range and has lost a lot of kill power from Brawl.
-Fair has a lot of startup and just baaarely autocancel.
-Bair doesn't autocancel. Sads.
-Dair has poor range, slow startup, and it doesn't autocancel! It makes up for it in pure damage and by being hard to punish on shield, but man is this thing just a risky move overall.
-Aerial Egg Toss can be ran under for a harsh punish- not something we can really use against him, but nevertheless it's an issue if he gets too predictable with his tosses around somebody like Fox.
Yoshi also doesn't really have disjoint on his aerials, while we still have our disjointed Bair- Bair also being a better spacing tool than his Fair because of this.

It'sstillatrashmutho

 

[Desu~]

You say this, but:

- Yoshi's aerials has deceptive range. There is a difference between deceptive and disjointed. It's hitbox has a lot more range than what we would expect, and use that to wall most of our aerials. And you really don't want to challenge a fair at that point because one hit from that actually allows him to string into something from whatever position we got into afterwards.

- Yoshi might barely autocancel some of his aerials, but all of that goes moot the moment we talk about our slow startups. Trying to hit back with a fair, nair or ftilt can be beaten by Yoshi's fast jab follow up.

- The little ****** will go all aggro the moment he sees the opportunity. aggro Yoshi beats aggro Jiggs by a long shot simply because he has the option of switching from close range to mid/long range.

- dair will eat. our. shields, man. And you can't even dare challenging it because of the afformentionned deceptive hitbox.

- And you're making it look like Jiggs can run as fast as the average character?

Honestly you're making Yoshi look like he's a saint or something, while in reality Yoshi has now got everything that a good character needs. Jiggs has a ridiculously hard time dealing with a braindead Yoshi, and has an even more hard time when playing against a skilled Yoshi. There's also a lot more issues we haven't discussed that makes Yoshi's options even more diverse, like how we can get caught in a setup of his neutral B, which leaves him with a free hit of his choice, but it's better to discuss it in the MU thread.

 

[Codaption]

You say this, but:

- Yoshi's aerials has deceptive range. There is a difference between deceptive and disjointed. It's hitbox has a lot more range than what we would expect, and use that to wall most of our aerials. And you really don't want to challenge a fair at that point because one hit from that actually allows him to string into something from whatever position we got into afterwards.

- Yoshi might barely autocancel some of his aerials, but all of that goes moot the moment we talk about our slow startups. Trying to hit back with a fair, nair or ftilt can be beaten by Yoshi's fast jab follow up.

- The little ****** will go all aggro the moment he sees the opportunity. aggro Yoshi beats aggro Jiggs by a long shot simply because he has the option of switching from close range to mid/long range.

- dair will eat. our. shields, man. And you can't even dare challenging it because of the afformentionned deceptive hitbox.

- And you're making it look like Jiggs can run as fast as the average character?

Honestly you're making Yoshi look like he's a saint or something, while in reality Yoshi has now got everything that a good character needs. Jiggs has a ridiculously hard time dealing with a braindead Yoshi, and has an even more hard time when playing against a skilled Yoshi. There's also a lot more issues we haven't discussed that makes Yoshi's options even more diverse, like how we can get caught in a setup of his neutral B, which leaves him with a free hit of his choice, but it's better to discuss it in the MU thread.

I was honestly expecting this kind of confusion, but... I was talking more from a general sense, not specifically the matchup. Obviously Yoshi beats us in the air, but whether his aerial game is better than ours overall is still up for debate imo.

That said, I'm just gonna nitpick on a few things. Namely...

And you're making it look like Jiggs can run as fast as the average character?

Because I did go out of my way to point out that no, we can't really take advantage of this because of our poor ground speed.

I'll also point out that since popping out of egg lay gives invincibility frames, he doesn't get a "free" hit of any kind, unless of course you're talking about while you're trapped in the egg (which you honestly probably were).

 

[Desu~]

Well you did post this to the Jiggs competitive and metagame discussion thread.

But other than that, yes, it's feasible to deal against Yoshi by using a better, more versatile character, no doubt about that.

 

[Codaption]

My bad, I thought the original question was asking about Yoshi's abilities as a whole compared to us rather than just the matchup. Both characters play mostly the same, after all, he's just better at it.

 

[Jiggly]

Puff's SHAD is really good, going to make a spereate thread on this in the next couple days.

 

[Uncle Tonkle]

I've been doing SHAD -> rest for a while myself. It's a really good way to condition them to shield whenever you weave in (given there are enough games to hit the rest once or more). If your opponent is conditioned you can usually get a pound, but the safer option is of course empty SHAD -> grab. Some people will start getting scared and roll away to try and avoid the mixup so if you can see a pattern in this you can probably punish or at least get a bit of stage for free. These are all things you can mention in the thread if you want to. It's definitely a really good tool to at least bait things out in neutral and/or collect some data.

 

[Soft Serve]

IIRC shad nair at max range was -12 before shield changes, and effectively safe shield pressure due to how puff can drift away and low profile things. Its probably much better now.

 

[Kojii]

Is uncharged rollout at the ledge the fastest way to ledge trump?

 

[FunAtParties]

Is uncharged rollout at the ledge the fastest way to ledge trump?

This is an interesting question.

 

[Codaption]

Sadly, no, the instant ledge trump is definitely much faster and even just running off and holding back probably is as well.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

Anyone able to find a consistently good use for down smash? whenever I try to use it I always miss or mistime it whether it is trying to send the other person far off stage or as an edge-guard it is nearly useless. (or perhaps I just need to git gud)

 

[Desu~]

Down smash seems to be the optimal choice when going for the ledge trump.
You would just need to be careful for unsuspecting aerials coming from the opponent, so get the shield up until he's about to grab the ledge.
I strongly not recommend trying this against those who's up b got active hitbox such as Marth or even people who know about using up b without grabbing the ledge in the first place.

Video here shows the potential threat to everyone's "beefy up b", so that it shows you how to react accordingly to each individual characters.

 

[Kojii]

Sadly, no, the instant ledge trump is definitely much faster and even just running off and holding back probably is as well.

How do I "instant ledge trump"?

 

[Stickmanlolz]

How do I "instant ledge trump"?

Run off the edge then quickly fast fall while holding towards the edge. takes time to do consistently.

 

[FunAtParties]

Run off the edge then quickly fast fall while holding towards the edge. takes time to do consistently.

With Pikachu, I do that **** even when I'm not try to lol. It's ridiculous.

 

[Thomass2323]

What is the biggest mistake Jigglypuff players make?

 

[Jiggly]

What is the biggest mistake Jigglypuff players make?

Think that Hbox is a prominent Sm4sh puff

 

[Stickmanlolz]

What is the biggest mistake Jigglypuff players make?

Being too aggressive

 

[SmashRacer]

What is the biggest mistake Jigglypuff players make?

Using Sing to recover
I have to admit, that has happened to me a couple of times

 

[Codaption]

Definitely agreeing with Stick here, though I'd also point out that improper use of Rest is also pretty damning.

 

[drakeirving]

using rollout against other jigglypuffs

 

[Deleted member]

What is the biggest mistake Jigglypuff players make?

Selecting Jigglypuff on the CSS.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Selecting Jigglypuff on the CSS.

If you're just gonna be rude about her, why would you go on a Jigglypuff metagame thread????

 

[FunAtParties]

Selecting Jigglypuff on the CSS.

I lol'd

 

[Stickmanlolz]

Selecting Jigglypuff on the CSS.

After 4 hours of looking at this post I could not decide whether I should be offended or agree with it. Well done :I

 

[HoSmash4]

What are jigglypuffs ledge coverage options?

 

[Codaption]

Puff can cover regular getup with Nair, as well as jump and ledge hop (you have to be careful with the last two, though, as the hitbox is small enough that you might miss). Fair should also cover these same options quite nicely.

Roll getup can be punished with bair or rest after jumping back, and Rest oos is nice for getup attack.

 

[drakeirving]

Puff in general has pretty good ledge coverage and additional ledge control options. The main issue is that once you do one you have to commit since her options are long-lasting, but she has plenty for good mixups.

Dair is excellent at covering many options, since it covers neutral and hop (and sometimes jump) if you're at ledge, and covers neutral and roll if you retreat. It also can poke shields which comes handy if they complete a neutral getup. Nair serves a similar purpose. Both of these you can also use to wreck recoveries and can cover ledgesnap vulnerability.

Like Codaption says, you can also cover roll by spacing properly and using Rest, utilt (at high%, also better if you're too far), or bair (if you're much too far). You can get a lot of mileage by running to the ledge and faking out by rolling backwards to catch their own roll.

Getup attack is an easy shield and Rest. SHAD also can cover a getup attack, plus you can retreat with it if they roll.

Plus Puff gets ledge trump stuff, which can include following with bair, or you can get right back to stage and either force an instant getup, an on-stage recovery, or they get wrecked by dsmash.

 

[Kojii]

Have anyone fiddled around with shield drops?

 

[drakeirving]

too hard, why is it so finicky

 

[Codaption]

More on ledge stuff, going into detail on drake's stuff... since utilt can lead into rest at low percents, using it to cover roll getup can net you a lot of damage. Utilt also kills at high percents

As for ledge trumps, it's important to note that we don't get a guaranteed Bair out of it, but we still have our other tools to use (such as Dsmash). Dair is really nice for covering vulnerability frames due to the smidge of disjoint on it, not to mention how difficult it can be to tech multi-hit stage spikes.

 

[Quarium]

Been getting lotta mileage outta falling upair to uptilt lately.

Selecting Jigglypuff on the CSS.

Not even mad, that being said remind to me to go Puff first if we ever play.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

Been getting lotta mileage outta falling upair to uptilt lately.

Falling U-air is a godsend kreygasm